Bangaai Dilema

[npaden]

Hey everyone, thanks for dropping in. Here's my problem.
I have a 6 month old tank raised bangaai in my main tank and 2 - 6 month old tank raised bangaai in my 15 gallon refugium.
The 2 in the refugium are beginning to chase each other around (actually the larger one chases the smaller one exclusively) and do not appear to be of a differing sex. (They don't hang out together)
The 1 in my tank was part of a pair I got but one didn't make it. I tried to catch it to put it in the refugium but haven't been able to.
I am contemplating adding the larger of the 2 in the refugium to the main tank to see how it likes that one in the tank. Problem is, if they don't like each other I don't know whether I will be able to catch it because I can't seem to catch the one that is in there now. The 2 in the refugium seem to be okay now - no major battles - so maybe they could be different sex but just one is larger so it is more aggressive? Anyway, I have been contemplating my next move for a while and would like to get any input you might have.
Thanks, Nathan

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[npaden]

Anyone?

[billsreef]

You do have a dilema there.

I would keep a close eye on the 2 in the refugium and if there is any signs the chasing is causing damage or stress I would go ahead and risk introducing one to the solitary one in the main tank. Naturally try and pick one that seems to be of the oppisite sex ;)

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Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
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[FMarini]

Hi:
you're right thats quite a dilemma...A big problem is at this age it is IMPOSSIBLE to sex these fish. I guess you could try putting on fish in a breeding net set-up in view of this othe rbanggai and see what his/her response is...If he's trying to fight w/ it, then ppull it out, if he looks like things are cool, and hes dancing for it...then you got a pair...I would guess from your description that you got 2 immature males and that one of them is finally becoming sexually mature and hence more aggressive...tough call...Can you place these fish ina small aquarium and watch them for a whiel...if they beef out they come
frank
PS did you read my articles on raising and breeding these fish at www.eparc.com (http://www.eparc.com) under fish breeding, and www.reefs.org (http://www.reefs.org) under both the talks and library sections

[npaden]

Frank,
Thanks for the reply. I have read and re-read all that I can find on the bangaii's. I haven't found anything that really describes the aggresive relationship between same sex bangaii's. My clarkii clowns are positively the opposite sex (big female, little male in tank for 6+ months together) and periodically the female with chase the male around for a while. No harm done, but she puts him in his place.
On the bangaai's I have 3 sizes - very small (1/2" body); small (1" body); & medium (1 1/2" body) all about 6 months old and from 2 different suppliers. With the bangaii's right now there is no harm done, but they aren't cuddling up together and hanging out that's for sure. The small one chases the very small one in the refugium and basically seems to be just putting it in it's place. The small one gets front and center with low current, the very small one hangs out back in the calperla grass and a more moderate current. If the very small one ventures out much the bigger one chases it back into the caperla. I just added the small one (not the very small one) to the main tank last night and it ended up hanging out with the medium sized one for a tiny bit, but then the medium sized one would lash out at the small one and actually did a little bit of damage before I could get the small one out. The small one didn't fight back, just ran away, but the medium sized one would follow it for a little and smack it a few times. Is this defintely fighting between the same sex or do they need to establish dominance even if they are opposite sex? Does it sound like I have 3 males? How friendly would an opposite sex bangaai be? Even with a smaller sized partner?
MUCH appreciative of any help or additional insight
Thanks, Nathan

[Larry M]

Moved to this forum at author's request.

[FMarini]

Nathan:
Okay..lets see. you still have really young Banggais, but the larger of the two seems about right to startt maturing. I suspect your right, the middle sized one who chases the little guy into the grass is most likely a male, and his just asserting dominance over the smaller guy. I guess if you could start removing animals I would remove the smallest one first. What your describing to me is aggression, not breeding (interesting you say you didn't see anything written about aggression toward same sex banggais-I wrote in three places that dominant males will harass and kill off their male competition. In my experience the males will attempt to dominate the female for a day or two, then everything is honkey dory, so if the aggression continues remove either the aggressive fish or the submissive. I will tell you this, if you decide on removing the dominant one right now, you'll get a new dominant one popping up w/in a short time, so I guess i would remove the submissive, keep an eye on the dominant, and if your not seeing any mating behavior in the next few weeks then remove everyone but th edominant(cuz you know hes a male), and start adding fish one at a time until the male stops being aggressive and starts shimmying.
I would have to say from your description you might have three males, but again your fish are young...I did notice on one group of females I had that there was also a dominant female -she would only bully the other females but never hurt them.
frank

[npaden]

Frank, thanks again for replying.
I read about the aggression Male to Male and I understand this, my problem is distinguishing that aggresion from normal dominance behavior. So far the only action that actually caused injury was when I tried to introduce the medium sized one into the main tank. Not much injury, but I think it would have if I had let it remain in there.
Now for the new info: I bought a large bangaii at the LFS yesterday - Approx 2" SVL. It was in a tank with a medium sized - Approx 1 1/4" SVL bangaii and a few other fish with no signs of aggression between the two. I studied it for 1/2 hour and couldn't tell male/female based on the jawline so I bought the large one thinking they both might be females. I brought it home and introduced it to the main tank - within 15 minutes it had located the existing bangaii and kicked it out of its spot to the other side of the tank (6' 120 gal). I prodded the medium sized bangaii that was in there back to its spot but the large bangaii chased it out again. No injuries and once the large one chased the medium sized one out it didn't pursue it, just didn't allow it in close proximity to it. I captured the large bangaii I had just purchased and returned it to the LFS assumming it also to be a male.
I traded it for the other bangaii that had been occupying the same tank peacefully with the one I now thought was a male. I brought it home and decided to put it in my refugium this time with the smaller bangaii's as the tangs & clowns in my main tank might harrass the new addition. The new bangaii in the refugium seems to have brought harmony to the refugium! There are now 3 bangaii's of varying sizes in the refugium and they all hang out within a 3 to 4 inch square. Occasionally the new one will make a quick jerk towards one of the smaller ones, but doesn't actually touch it and allows it to come right back. Same behavior with the 2 that used to live on opposite sides of the refugium, the now hang out with the new one, but occasionally the bigger of the two will start toward the smallest, but will allow it to come right back.
I am completely confused now. When I stated that there was little literature regarding the aggressiveness - I was mainly thinking of female - female relationships and also trying to actually get a better description of the interaction - i.e. - would a male continue to chase another male even if the male left for the other side of the tank or would it just fend off it's territory? Also will females show dominance over other females? And then the big one is will a larger male or female so dominance over a smaller bangaii of the opposite sex?
For now I think I am going to just have to wait and see what happens to the bangaii threesome in the refugium. Surely something should happen like a set pairing up and chasing the other or if they are males they should all be running around in there fighting (It's only 15 gallons). If they somehow are females (although then I am a loss for why the bangaii in the tank attacked the small one I added to the tank with it) then I will add the largest one to the main tank in a while and see what happens.
Oh well, all I have really done is confuse myself through this process and I hope you have been able to follow me through this. Thanks again for the advice and assistance as I try to make this work out with a mated pair of bangaiis that may eventually end up supplying the LFS with tank raised bangaiis vs. wild caught.
Thanks very much, Nathan

[npaden]

Ok, Update on bangaii's - I think I have a pair!!! http://www.reefcentral.com/smilies/smlove2.gif :) :)
I moved the new addition to the main tank after a few days of aggression free behavior in the refugium. It is hanging out with the bangaii in the main tank now - for 3 hours last night and this morning they were swimming around the tank together! http://www.reefcentral.com/smilies/spin2.gif
The 2 males in the refugium have resumed previous aggresive behavior of the larger one chasing the smaller one around - they must have been intimidated by the larger female and minded their manners while she was in there with her. So now I will just have to raise the babies up to about 1" or a little bigger and trade them in at the LFS since I will hopefully be having babies in a few months!
If you have any additional advice since the articles I will try to put it to good use. I am contemplating trying to use golden pearls as their initial food and see if they will eat that - any thoughts?
Thanks, Nathan

[FMarini]

Nate:
interesting idea about using dead foods as the banggai's fry first meals....I have tried this already, and I must dsay its was terribly unsuccessful. Rotifer pearls...while the fry will strike at it, and will eat it...does NOT provide enuf nutrition to keep these guys alive, all of them started dropping off at 10days...I also tried forzen baby brine w/ slightly better luck all the babies madeit past day 10 but all of them had sudden fright syndrone, and started dying when something happened to their tank. So If you do want to feed dead foods try to incorporate other tiny peices of other food items, especially ones which provide the HUFAs which we've discussed
good luck w/ your breeding
frank