Sump design

[Larry M]

I am in the planning stages for a new tank. Here is a design I came up with for a sump I will build myself. See any problems with the plan?

http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/miscphotos/125sump.jpg

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 03-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 03-22-2000).]

[LowMax]

Larry

Looks similar to your previous web page design - which I copied for my reef sump. I like the macro algae refugium. Do you want the flow to go through the refugium or over? Is there any advantage/disavantage for macro algae refugium flow pattern - in other words, would you want another divider plate to force flow up through algae and then over to return pump? Overall design looks good IMO.

[Larry M]

LowMax--That's a good question, and one I was hoping for some feedback on. Flow in the tank is going to be pretty high--1200gph, so I'm not sure I want it all ripping through the refugium. I figure this way some circulation in that area of the sump would take place, but not as much as if the baffles forced it through the macro algae.

What will be different about this sump from my present one:
1) water comes in at water level instead of submerged.
2) I'm going to put the skimmer in-sump this time instead of external.
3)Obviously, the refugium. I don't like having it above my main tank for a couple of reasons. I don't buy the idea that copepods will get all chewed up on the return to the tank. Of course, this area will be lighted too, probably with a mercury vapor light.
4)External pump. I'm going with a Japanese-made Iwaki in the hope that it will be quiet.
5) Calcium reactor will discharge effulent into the first chamber, instead of the last. I'm hoping the extra turbulence will help blow off excess co2.

BTW, I'm also thinking of using all holes in the corner overflows for drain lines, and running the return back over the top of the tank. Any comments on that?

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 03-08-2000).]

[Dwayne]

Larry,

FWIW, I use two overflows on the back wall drilled about 4" down and 4" over from top corner. I then use two return lines with a capped PVC pipe down each back corner with holes drilled in the pipe from bottom to 6" above bottom. I also use a 1200 gph pump.

Hope this made some sense.

Dwayne

[Larry M]

Dewayne--So your returns are like a vertical spray bar? I haven't had good luck with spray bars, so I think I will skip it this time. The tank will be an All-Glass 125 gallon with corner overflows.
http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/images/twinflo_demo.gif

I am going to use Richard Durso's overflow standpipe (http://members.xoom.com/reefland/frames.htm) providing I can get it to fit.

Not sure how I want to make the return pipe yet.

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[LowMax]

1) It will be interesting to see what your idea on introducing flow at water level will do for noise. A 90 degree turn not fully submerged - hmmmmmm - I may try that before drilling a bulkhead.

2) Why skimmer in sump? Prior bad experience? I like mine external where I can get to it without having to remove the sump also (depends on your stand height and personal preference).

3) You could always drill a few small holes in the last baffle at the bottom to give you some mixing flow at the lower levels of the refugium. I have no place for a refugium above my tank and really like what you've come up with. I would want some minor flow at all elevations.

4) I agree with the external pump and calc reactor return.

5) One thing I did was to lower the height of each successive baffle to get a small "spill over/waterfall" effect to ensure RDIII return bubbles gone before reaching pump chamber (downstream chamber levels slightly lower than upstream chambers - hope this makes sense).

Overall good design - should do what you want - as you know IT WILL BE EXPENSIVE.

[Dwayne]

Larry,

My tank is also an AGA 125 gal. Have you considered a TOP FIN 125 gal? It only has a single support across the top instead of two like AGA.

Correct on the vertical spray bar. Way couldn't I say it that simply?

My overflow boxes are only 6" deep. Doesn't take anything away from the bottom of the tank. Disadvantage - plumbing down the back of the tank.


FWIW

Dwayne

[LowMax]

Larry

Your corner overflow drains are what size - 1" drains? Each of these should handle about 600 to 700 gph. Why do you need to also have the return bulkhead for drains also?

[Larry M]

Hey, thanks for all the discussion.
Lowmax: I figure I can always use an elbow inside the sump to submerge the drain outlet if it gets too noisy. I'm curious about the noise factor myself. My Reef Devil gets salt creep like crazy around the air inlet, bulkhead, etc. It's so short I can sit it on a stand inside the sump and still remove it easily. I originally had it mounted this way on my first sump with the 65. I like the idea of the holes through the baffle, I will use that idea. A little flow but not too much.

Dewayne--Not familiar with Top Fin, but I know Perfecto tanks are like that too. Only hitch is I would like three lights over the tank--eventually 3 250W MH, but for now I am going to use my 175W on each end and buy one 250 for the middle. That center brace would pretty much limit me to two lights. Those overflow boxes do have their advantages--I had a tank like that once too. I just got so hooked on these corner overflows--I love them even though they do take up quite a bit of space.

Ah yes, lighting......the hood is the next obstacle. I would like to turn the MH's perpendicular to the tank (with reeflectors)and still have VHO actinics in there as well--and maybe a surge device. :) Any good ideas?

Have you guys seen that new surge thingy that hangs on the wall? Looks promising.

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Larry M]

Do the 1" handle that much flow? I was thinking of ways to lower the back pressure and keep the flow high, but maybe I'm over-designing things here....it's happened before. :)
It's a kickback to being a farm kid--engineers and farmers always over-build everything. ;)

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[LowMax]

My Lifereef single box skimmer/overflow (unfortunately no drilled tank) has only a 1" return. Lifereef rated it at 700 gph if I'm remembering right - have seen some other discussions about that much flow from some other posts. My Rio2500 won't feed that much flow with head pressure from fittings and elbows so I have no field data to support my claim.

I think the Top Fin brand is sold by Petsmart as a house brand tank. It does have the Perfecto Anchor label on the tank though. Have to look under the rim - between glass and upper rim trim.

Didn't know you were an engineer - me too. I am also always accused of over building everything - you just can't build it too strong. I also tend to be anal retentive on attention to detail

[LowMax]

BTW - seen the hang on the wall surge box (with mounted picture no less). I won't buy anything until I can see the working guts or have a real good idea of what is going on inside.

[Snailman]

LowMax... It is a normal surge device that uses a butterfly valve in place of a toilet valve or an auto siphon carlson device. This valve seals at the end of the cycle so that the pipe does not fill with air. He has worked very hard to get all of the bugs out of this design and my hat is off to him because I have built four different surge devices. The idea of no noise and no bubbles is a lot harder than just making a surge device. The head mechanical engineer at work is designing a valve for my 30 gallon cone tank that I want to use as surge device. I put a toilet valve in it the first time and never gave a thought to the fact that toilet valves were not designed to open under three feet of water. :D

[LowMax]

Snailman

Thanks for the info - good application for a butterfly valve. Where I work - power plant - we have some 12' (yes feet) diameter piping and use butterfly valves for isolation. If you didn't use this type of valve you would have to build one big valve actuator. Scale this concept down and you have a good sealing valve that does not take not much force to operate.

[Canadian]

Larry, I handled the problem of not submersing the drain outlet by putting a hosebarb into the pipe draining into the tank, the end of which is actually submerged. I drilled a whole bunch of holes in the hosebarb so that it acts somewhat as a vertical spray bar. The water sort of dribbles out of the holes as well as coming out of the end of the hosebarb effectively reducing backpressure and keeping it whisper quiet.

HTH,

Andrew

[wayne]

Larry,
I just used the same design for the overflows as you are looking at. My tank is the same as R. Durso's... a 180 Oceanic. This was the easiest DIY I've ever done and it made a dramatic difference in noise. I just dry fitted all the connections (no glue) and in the top cap I drilled a 1/4 inc hole and stuck an airline in the hole and syliconed it in place.

I did one thing that I will probably change. I glued the air tube so that it goes into the pipe about 1 1/2 inches in. This should probably be about an inch max and it doesn't really need to be in that far.

I don't need to regulate the air flow but I bought a brass air flow control valve just in case I needed it.

I'm also in the process of putting a sump under a 75 gal and my design is similar to your except for the baffle. I onle have 3 "compartments" the first is the largest (it will house a Rio 2500 and Berlin Skimmer) this is devided by a piece of plexiglass that I drilled a number of 1/4 in holes through and cut out a 1" by 3" slot 4" from the bottom of the devider, the next area is slightly smaller (it will house livesand, liverock and callerpa), the next is the smallest section at about 5" (just big enough to hold a Rio 2500 or a Mag 7 -- or both) for return.

I don't know if I've said anything to help you ... but the overflow pipes were better than bread pudding.

[Larry M]

Thanks again, everyone, for the feedback. Maybe I can avoid rebuilding this reef about a dozen times this go-around.

Wayne--I will be using Durso's design if possible. His is an Oceanic, and this will be an All-Glass, and there is quite a difference in how much room exists inside the overflows. But I like the idea.

Johnny--I would love to get a 180 but the tank sits in my dining room and 6" in my townhome is a lot. I was able to convince my wife on the 125, I think the 180 would be a no-go.
As for the lighting, ideally it would be 3 400w MH, but I am running this off of one 15 amp circuit that can't be upgraded. And, the All-Glass 125 has two top braces which break the opening into 3 areas instead of two like so:
http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/miscphotos/72x18bf-2co.gif
To hold down conversion costs for now I am going to use my present 175's on each end with the 250 in the middle. Eventually I will probably go to three 250w's.
I want to get the mh as close to the water as possible, so I'm still working on the hood design--hopefully there will be someway to get vho actinics in there as well without having them underneath the mh.

As for surface agitation, IMO the more the better for gas exchange. I hope it does blow off the co2, that is the idea. Without that ph will be depressed and I've been down that nasty road before.

LowMax--I'm not an engineer, but I grew up on a farm. My dad overbuilt everything. Later on in life I married an engineer's daughter and saw similarities in him and my dad. ;)


------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Flamehawk]

Larry, 1st question, why a 125gal tank and not a 180 (more front to back room, will require same amount of lighting)? Have you considered (2) 400watt bulbs with Spider Lights instead of three 250watt bulbs? The Spider Lights could let you slip by with two bulbs over a 6 by 2 space because each reflector can spread the light over a 3 x 2 space. You will have to mount the flourescents under the Spider Lights instead of along side of them which turns out to be good because that would bring the less powerful flourescents closer to the tank.

Also, i see that your sump design will be constantly rippling the surface of the refugium. In my glorious freshwater planted days, rippling the surface of the water was a big "no-no" as it was thought to drive off the much needed co2. What do you think?

Other than that, your design looks pretty good. HTH.

JOHNNY

ps, where did you get the bubble counter holders for your calcium reactor?


------------------
www.homestead.com/johnnymok (http://www.homestead.com/johnnymok)

[alde]

Larry,

Your sump looks great. I will be setting up a bigger tank in the next few months and will do somthing similar. I agree that at least some pods will get through a pump impeller. I have seen them shoot out of my pump return very much alive. Right now I have a plastic box with LS and rock with calurpa growing under an 18 watt compact flouresent. It seems to work pretty well.

Al

------------------
He who feared he would not succeed sat still.

[Agu]

I have a twenty long I'm thinking of doing the same thing with, would that be big enough sump for a 180. My other idea was to connect a ten gallon with bulkheads and run them in series with the ten being first and having the skimmer connection, and the second tank as a refugium.

[Larry M]

Agu--You should talk to Frisco about the two sumps connected idea, he is designing something like that. Take a look on the member's site page, his website is listed there and shows a plan.
Personally I think a 20 is a little small for a 180 (when did you get that?) but anything can work if you design it right. Remember the sump usually runs about half full of water so that only gives you 10 gallons in there.

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Larry M]

Oh boy, I get to start building the sump this weekend. I have decided to cut it down to 36 inches long instead of 42". The partition for the last compartment (just before the return pump) is going to have 1/4" holes drilled in it, beginning about 4" above the bottom. The purpose of this partition is only to keep the macro algae out of the pump intake. Drilling holes in that last partition means that the water level in the last two compartments will be the same, and of course this is where the evaporation will take place.

The whole sump will run with about 26 gallons of water (2/3 full). With all the baffles I figure I can get by with 1/4" plexi. Too bad, I was really looking forward to playing with the 3/8" stuff.

I ordered a bunch of parts last night for hooking up the return plumbing--it came to about $65 with shipping! Of course a single union ball valve was $18 by itself.

The pump I ended up with is a Mak4, which has 3/4" in and outs. I'm going to bump that up to 1" and split the return using a 1 1/4" wye. Those buggers are hard to find!! Not a branch wye, but a true wye. I found it at www.plumbingsupply.com (http://www.plumbingsupply.com)

So this weekend the garage will be filled with the lovely smell of freshly cut acrylic. And, once again I get to expose myself to the carcinogenous methylene chloride. Ah, the simple pleasures of life. :)

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Larry M]

Well, here she is: 36lx17dx16tall.

http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/miscphotos/sump2.jpg

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[NorthCoast]

Nice work Larry! http://thedam.com/cwm/smile/net/flash.gif

Now, if I could convince my wife that with a few more tools, I could build exactly what I wanted too and save money. <sigh>


NorthCoast

[Larry M]

I water tested this thing today in my garage. This is the first time I have ever used the Weldon #16 for gluing acrylic. Before I used strictly methylene chloride. The #16 is thicker, fills gaps much better. Also a little messier to work with. Takes a little of the finesse out of applying the glue. I am impressed with the Weldon though, I did not have to go back and touch up any areas--no leaks whatsoever. That is a first. Here is a pic of the water test:

http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/miscphotos/testsump2.jpg


------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[JamesB]

After seeing your fine piece of craftsmanship, I do have a late suggestion. Your setup looks to be very dependent on an adequate water level to ensure water makes it over to the return pump suction. You might consider inserting a piece of small ID PVC or other tubing through the bottom of your refugium area connecting the skimmer section with the return pump suction. Even though some water will bypass your skimmer and refugium, it may be a small price to pay in the event the water level drops too far (e.g., evaporation).

FWIW, James.

[Larry M]

James--I'm a lousy photographer. The last partition has several holes drilled in it to allow water to pass from the refugium into the pump chamber, and still keep out macro algae and substrate. Maybe this pic shows it a little better.

http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/miscphotos/finishedsump2.jpg

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[JamesB]

Hi Larry:

Your photography is much more than adequate!

My comment was based on the capability to get water into the refugium area (and then, the pump suction) from the skimmer box. It looks like you'll have to maintain the water level in the sump at least 3/4 the height of the sump for water to overflow the skimmer section into the refugium and then get to the return pump suction. That doesn't leave much room for extra water above the top of your partition while still providing space for power-failure-induced siphon. In addition, it looks like the top of your middle bubble partition is about 2" above the lower partition. That only leaves about 2" of "control band" on the water level. For my setup (75gal tank w/ 29 gal sump), that means top-off water additions every day during summer.

If you felt this comment was valid, you could reduce the height of the partitions attached to the bottom panel (impractical at this time), drill holes below the top of these partitions, or provide a small, direct path to the return pump suction.

FWIW, James

[Larry M]

Oh, Ok...I see what you're saying. Here's how I planned it out, and I hope this works. If not I may be rebuilding the sump.

The sump holds 40 gallons, and the way it is designed now will operate with about 25 gallons, leaving room for 15 gallons more in case of a power outage. On an All-Glass 125, that means the water level in the tank can drop about 2 3/4" before I run out of room. (I computed that this way: tank is 23 inches tall, 125 gallons divided by 23=5.43 gallons per vertical inch) My current All-Glass tank with a corner overflow does not drop anywhere near that during a power-off (partially due to holes drilled in the return lines), so I'm hoping this one will work the same way.

As for the evaporation, since the pump chamber and the refugium are connected because of the holes in the last partition, evaporation should take place through the entire refugium as well as the small pump compartment. I'm not sure what you mean by how far the center divider extends above the others, IME that doesn't have anything to do with evaporation. Water should evaporate in the entire sump area to the right of the third partition from the left. In other words, there is a large area for evaporation, on purpose.

At any rate, there is a gravity top-off system (you can see the Kent float valve at the far right end of the sump) so I am not as worried about this factor as I am regarding what happens during power-off.

The tank should be here next week, when it comes I am going to set the system up in my garage and run it for a long time, test the system by cutting power, etc. If it works, great....if not it's back to the drawing board. :)

Thanks for the input!!

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[JamesB]

Looks like you have things well thought out.

My point about the relative heights of the partitions is that you have to have the water at least as high as the partition to your skimmer box. OTOH, it can be no higher than the top of your center partition to get the bubble separation you're looking for. The difference in those heights is the water level "control band" I was referring to. A wider control band gives you a little more flexibility should you be gone for a long weekend. However, your auto-top-off system will minimize that concern.

One other minor point is that your skimmer will occupy some of the "free volume" in your sump, but it sounds like you have built in plenty of margin.

When in doubt, build it stout.

James.

[Larry M]

Now I see what you were referring to by the "control band", good point. I appreciate the time you took to give your impressions. I don't claim to have all the knowledge about these systems, and discussions like this can save a person tons of headaches down the road.


------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[JamesB]

Ok, enough about design.

How did you make the joints between the walls and the bottom panel? Are the walls butted on top of the bottom panel or are they on the sides? Did you dado anything or is the Weldon joint strong enough? Same questions for the center partitions, which also serve the center brace function.

Does it take any special tools (blades, bits), low (or high) speed saws, etc. to work adequately with acrylic?

TIA, James

[Larry M]

James--I only use butt joints. I guess a person could use dados, grooves, etc but I have never found it necessary. Usually I lay the bottom down first, then set and glue the sides, the set and glue the ends and partitions. This way the ends and partitions are the same width, making for easier cutting.
I use a table saw to cut the stuff, there are other ways to do it but this works best for me. Other than that about all you need is a hole saw and a drill for bulkhead holes. Here is a write-up I did on working with acrylic, kind of summarizes the procedure I use.
http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/building_with_acrylic.htm

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[mr9iron]

:rolleyes: