Alk/KH So High that Its off the Scale

[Beth]

I posted this initially over in an active thread in the Reef Section, but now I see that it might need to be in this forum.

I am having a problem with way too high alk/KH. I'm just in the process of setting up a reef, with only LR and LS in tank now. My pH is at 8.0-8.1 which I know I need to get higher. The calcium is too low, at 300; however the alk-kh is so high it is off the Salifert test kit scale. I'm not using a cal reactor. I did use Kent's Superbuffer to try to raise pH [the label said it would stabilize the pH at requisite level].

Now, should I be immensely concerned here with these off the scale alk-kh readings or can I just let the alk drop down naturally by discontinuing the buffer? I don't want my LR to die-off. I am also going to be adding a detritivore kit next Friday...so I have a week to get things stable. Also my LR has macro growing and I don't want that to die off either.

Additionally, I have been using C-Balance to raise cal [yes, I know that part B is a buffer too, but until today my alk-kh was too low so I was using the Kent buffer and C-Balance---overkill in hindsight].

Should I use just part A of the C-Balance [which is the calcium] to get the cal up, or should I just wait to get the alk back within range? Should I be doing a mass water change?

Thanks for any help.

[MickAv8r]

I think you fell into a common trap of many new aquarists. ALL THESE ADDITIVES WHICH DO I ADD FIRST?!?!:D

Here's the scoop, in a brand new aquarium there no reason to be dosing ANYTHING! Nothing is being consumed no life is really doing anything to the water quality. I tell most of my new customers to leave their tanks alone for the first 2-3 months just eyeball pH ALK and the curing of their rock. Calcium shouldn't be consumed at all at this point.

Fresh Saltwater mixed up to full strength should be at about the ideal 8-8.2 pH, 3ish on the dKH and 380-400 ppm on the calcium. Since nothing is going to be very active consuming anything in that tank as far as water quality goes for the first 1-3 months adding supplements is a total waste of time and can screw up your tank chemistry.

I would consider doing a few water changes to sort of 'reset' the chemistry however Randy may argue that you get into the laws of diminishing returns on this so you may need to do some larger percentage ones. Then just leave the tank alone, put in your cleanup crew etc the Live rock will be fine.

[MickAv8r]

quick followup, when I say eyeball the pH and alk etc I really mean that eyeball them. don't do a damn thing. Resist the temptation to 'correct' anything. A new tank is going to have a natural tendancy to hover around 7.9-8.1 for the first 6+ months of it's life as it matures pH will normally creep up. As long as your pH is above 7.9 there is no need to stress, you will do more harm mucking with it than by letting mother nature take it's course.

Marine tanks seek a natural equilibrium, the more you try to break mother nature to your will the more problems you will have. There is a difference between a chronically low problem and a tank in transition. If your tank was a year old and you told me it hovered at 7.9 pH and an alk of 5dkh then I'd be concerned, a new tank it's expected and while it can be corrected serious moderation and restraint by the new aquarist will lead to the greatest success.

[Beth]

Actually, I'm not a new aquarist, but I am new to reef keeping. I did leave the tank sit now for a month wo adding anything. The calcium level has been consistently at 300 which is low and is causing die-off of my coraline. I began the additives while attempting to raise cal [C-Balance is a combo additive with both cal and alk components].

I didn't know that ph would hover around 7.9-8.0 in a new tank. My pH has always run on the high side, even with new tanks...but, as I said reefing is new to me. I've kept FO's for apprx 13 yrs. I've never added additives to my FOs, never needed to, but, of course, I didn't worry about cal with FO either.

I'll go ahead and start the water changes tomorrow if the alk is not going to lower on its own any time soon. However, the calcium is still at 300. Are you saying that I do nothing about that? BTW I use 100% DI water and Red Sea salt. [Will this outrageously high alk-kh kill off any LR or LS creatures??---I am most concerned with that right now] Thanks !

[MickAv8r]

It sounds more like your salt is the problem. Short term high alk is not usually a problem and it will drop back down. However if brand new freshly mixed salt is only reaching 300ppm then your salt sucks. Personally I've yet to see a RedSea product worth much of a damn, and hitting only 300 tells me the salt isn't all that great either.

Water changes with a better salt should resolve everything including raising your calcium. I'd pick IO, Tropic Marin or Kent.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Beth:

I wouldn't worry about that pH right now. The nitrogen cycle in a starting tank tends to drive it down, but 8.0 to 8.1 is OK anyway.

While Tom's approach is fine (water changes or maybe even nothing for now)) it might actually cost you less to bring up the calcium with a calcium only product. Personally, that's what I'd do.

The calcium only part of C-balance would be one acceptable approach, as you suggested A simple calcium chloride product would also be OK (e.g., Turbo Calcium). In any case it will take quite a lot to raise calcium by 100 ppm (and then also extra to bring down the alkalinity by precipitating some CaCO3), so it may take a while. If you tell me how big the tank is and what you are using, I'll let you know how much you will likely need, as a minimum.

For now, don't use any buffers (until the alkalinity drops below 4 meq/L or less). If the pH drops into the sevens I can suggest some products to raise pH that won't have as a big of an effect on the alkalinity.

Good luck!

[Beth]

I did a test on freshly mixed RedSea water and the results were not good, as Mick predicted. Cal 250, KH 5.1/Alk 1.83, ph ok at 8.0. I used several different salts with my FO tanks...I settled on Red Sea because it was the only salt I found that did not test + for PO4--and in FO tanks that meant less nuisance algae. It worked well for that application. Too bad, I have almost 200gals of RedSea salt cause I buy bulk. What is your suggestion for a good reef sea salt with more calcium and reef trace elements?

Last night's Alk-KH readings of tank water using Salifert continued off the chart. I needed to use 1.55ml's of the KH regent to get results [which was off the chart so I didn't get an actual reading]. Perhaps you can tell me how bad that is?

I have a 72tgal bowfront, 5" DSB, 105lbs of Fiji LR. Tank dimensions are 48Lx21Hx12 to 18W. Setup with 80% LS [grains sizes .2-1.7] using Nature's Ocean, Keys LS and CaribSea. Sand has been in for about 1-1/2mos and the LR followed and has been in tank for a mo. I only have PH's for equipment at this point. No sump or other filtration. [What's your suggestion for a good hangon skimmer??] I have trace phosphates, all other water readings are at zero. [BTW: I have a thread running in Dr. Ron's section as I don't see much activity going with the biology aspect of this system. I expected the LR to be seeding my LS by now and I see no activity.]

All I have for additives is the C-Balance and the Superbuffer, and that is all I can probably get for a wk or so. There are no LFS's in Key West, FL so I mail order EVERYTHING. If you are going to suggest alternative calcium or pH boosters for the immediate future, please go ahead and give me a list...cause I will need to order. I have definitely discontinued the buffer! [And tempted to throw it away at this point]. Are you saying that I can use the calcium component of C-Balance alone to raise the calcium? If you have a better suggestion, then give me the name of the product so I can order it. Kalk perhaps?

Also, I have a detritivore kit arriving next Friday which I do not want to kill off with high alk. Will the kit be ok in my alk tank? I can do water water changes, even though that will apparently lower cal.

Thank you guys for your help!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Beth:

Ok, I'd dump that salt mix. I use Instant Ocean, as do many other reefkeepers, and that's what I'd recommend for you. You'll need to add calcium and alkalinity over time anyway, so paying more to boost it a bit in the salt mix isn't really worth it.

<< Last night's Alk-KH readings of tank water using Salifert continued off the chart. I needed to use 1.55ml's of the KH regent to get results [which was off the chart so I didn't get an actual reading]. Perhaps you can tell me how bad that is? >>

I don't know the details of that kit, but it should be linear. So if there is a result for half of what you added, just double it, etc.

<< Are you saying that I can use the calcium component of C-Balance alone to raise the calcium>>

Yes, for a one time only change. C-balance is a fine product, as is the similar product B-ionic. I use mostly limewater, and some B-ionic. Limewater is a fine way to go too, but you might get the tank stabilized before you try that route.

The animals coming will probably be OK, but let's see the actual alkalinity first.

[Beth]

Alk was 8.54 last night.

[Beth]

I did a 13 gal water change and the alk is in the readable range now at 5.14, so that's a bit better. I'll do anther water change in a day or so if it doesn't stabilize.

What would you recommend to raise the calcium? I will change salt but, in the meantime.....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Beth:

<< I posted this initially over in an active thread in the Reef Section, but now I see that it might need to be in this forum.>>

Any question even remotely related to chemistry will find a home here:) I usually try to answer the main forum too, but I check here first.

<< I did a 13 gal water change and the alk is in the readable range now at 5.14, so that's a bit better. I'll do anther water change in a day or so if it doesn't stabilize. >>

That's not too bad.

<< What would you recommend to raise the calcium? I will change salt but, in the meantime.....>>

If you have the C-balance already, you can use the calcium component of it. If you don't, it's probably cheaper to use calcium chloride (most any brand is OK).

It will take quite a lot. To bring 70 gallons of water from 300 ppm to 400 ppm calcium will require at least 74 grams (2.6 oz) of solid anhydrous calcium chloride (more if some precipitates out as CaCO3 to lower the alkalinity).

[Beth]

All I do have at the moment is C-Balance. You said in a post a day or so ago that I can use only the calcium [Part A] compoent of C-Balance only once? Is that correct? What dosing would you reccomend?

Also, sorry I am not up on all my chemical names [yet]. "Solid anhydrous calcium chloride" ....would that be the the mix for making limewater? Or something else?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Beth:

By only once, I meant that it isn't a good thing to do on an ongoing basis. To correct ocassional problems, it is fine.

Turbo calcium, sold by Kent is one brand of calcium chloride. There are others as well:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?UID=2001123113182780&T1=F77+0064+0051&TRAN85=Y&EDP=5771&PRT=D

[Beth]

Thanks for all the help!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome:)