RTN event of 2-17-05

[firefish2020]

On 2-17-05 angel reef experienced a bad case of RTN. Call it what you will all I know is that we lost 4 ORA corals in under 9 hours. Delicate Stag is gone, Green B.Nest, Indio Stag, Orange digitata. Fragged out a .5 inch piece of Turquoise stag and tried to seal off the RTN with superglue. It seems the damage has been done but I am watching the system closely. The only thing that had been done prior to this was the adition of chemiclean and phosguard to battle red slime that the redbug treatment caused. I originally blamed the chemiclean however I have strong reason to believe it may have been caused by the addition of an extra dose of phosguard which I had added about 12 hours prior to the event. I removed the phosguard and so far all looks well, I will keep you updated. Has anyone else experienced any reactions of there corals, waxing of leathers, drooping colts or RTN in sps etc...after adding phosguard to a system?

[mcox33]

No but Ron I suppose you could have gotten a bad batch or something a while back there was a guy telling Barry that he would never use PH 8.3 (at least I think It was 8.3) again as his dad had used it for years and then got a batch that completely melted his fish, so I guess anything is possible in saltwater.

[coralreefer]

Oh d@#M Ron :(
that sucks

I have strong reason to believe it may have been caused by the addition of an extra dose of phosguard which I had added about 12 hours prior to the event.
Not sure I wouldn't blame the chemiclean too but...

phosguard is aluminum based (white) right?

Has anyone else experienced any reactions of there corals, waxing of leathers, drooping colts or RTN in sps etc...after adding phosguard to a system

Randy Holmes-Farley has published articles describing adverse reactions, especially with leathers, while using an aluminum based phosphate remover :(
fwiw he does not recommend using this type of product.

Most SPS keepers now use iron based products like phosban. However there are several long threads in the sps forum about rtn and bleaching with this product too. Even at less than the recommend dose.

What's your ALK? I'm thinking some phosban problems were more pronounced with people running higher Alk (not sure if this would be the same with phosguard or not).

The redbug treatment caused a red slime outbreak? Sigh I didn't know it could do that.
What did it do kill the bacteria?

I'm sure you are but I'd be running a large amount of carbon in addition to your water changes.

[firefish2020]

Yes running carbon. Also read somewhere that the breakdown of cyano can release toxin that has lead to RTN in some cases. It could be a bad batch of something too I doubt I'll ever know, but I do know I wont add to much PO4 remover at once ever again 75 Gal dose works just fine. However there is some evidence that it might have been the aluminum in the Phosguard as well as "Bob" has been waxing for 3 days now! NOTE: We have used Phosgurd from the start never had a problem at all until now. It may be isolated it may be user error or it may be something else completely.

After the RTN and before an emergency water change of 10 Gal the Alk was 2.0 Meq/L Ca was around 350 or so WAY to LOW. So whatever caused this to happen is my bet on the cause of the actual RTN episode. The ALK is generally 2.5 - 3.0 CA is almost always 380. We have had issues with ALk, Ca swings in the past that have caused problems. After the water change everything has stabilized but Im still jittery and we are thinking about adding a CA reactor if it will stabilize my ALK and Ca levels in the future these things are startig to really take in the Ca.

[coralreefer]

After the water change everything has stabilized

Good :thumbsup:
I'm betting your right the alk swing is probably part of the underlying cause for the RTN.

Here are a few links to the articles and discussions I mentioned earlier.
aluminum in the reef aquarium (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm)

New aluminum release data for phosguard (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219105)

aluminum based phosphate remover discussion (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=215360&highlight=phosguard)

Something I did notice while scanning one thread. Carbon won't necessarily remove aluminum compounds :eek2: but it's always good to use when something bad is happening

[MattG]

ive used phosguard in my tank and never experienced any RTN from it. i did notice most of the corals would become lighter in color, not bleached just lighter.

hopefully everythign is fine now

[firefish2020]

Thanks for the info :) Im not sure how I will ever get it out of there but carbon cant hurt at this point, well I guess it could lol. Anyway I hope it will be ok now, so far everything looks normal again.

Matt dont EVER overdose this stuff, I used way more than I should have to combat the algae very stupid on my part. I cant say thats what did it but I will be careful from now on with it.

[onthefly]

Just something I thought about as I read through this thread and the attached articles.

4-5 different prepared foods, as well as nori, leached up to 300x more Al than Phosguard....and we dump that stuff in by the bucket load!

I don't think you can go slamming Phosguard that easily.....just my $.02

[firefish2020]

Not slamming anyone or anything, there are many parameters that could be to blame, however after I removed the 2nd bag of Phosguard low and behold things went back to normal. Could have been the carbon could have been the removal of the Phosguard I personally don’t know. I do know I am very careful about how much Phosguard to add now. I recommend and use Phosgurad as it does a great job at removing Po4. However I also warn people not to overdose it and take dosing precautions on the label seriously.