The skinny on Mandarins?

[SteveP]

Has anyone been able to keep one of these beauties alive for over a year without having to add live food, i.e. has your 'pod/flatworm population been enough to keep them healthy?

I have a 135 gallon reef setup with a DSB. The 'pods are doing well, and I was wondering if I would condemn a mandarin to a slow death by keeping one in it. The only other fish in the tank are a Kole tang, a firefish and a Tomato Clown in an LTA host.

Steve
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[Breef]

Depending on how much hiding spaces that are in the tank the pods will do accordingly. If you have a huge bunch of caularpa in the tank then the pods will always have plenty. If you have a large amount of live rock then the same should be true,especially if it is the type with a lot of small holes. Be sure to always feed a little extra for them to have something to eat. Especially flakes.

[Outerbank]

Beef, if your setup has been up for over 6 months, has at least 75 pounds of LR, you should be fine. I have a pair of super fat mandarins in my 230 with a 50 gallon refurium. I have so many pods in the main tank it isn't funny. If you add a 10 gallon refugium or so, you may be able to keep a pair.
Scott

[Breef]

Sorry,but thats Breef,and I wasn't the one to initiate the thread.

[SteveP]

Thanks Breef.

Steve
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[Breef]

Actually Scott's reply was a valid one. If you can set up even a small refugium hooked into the tank system that has your manderin in it then you will have a lot of pods available that they cannot get to until they[the pods] follow the lines into that tank. That refugium even a five gallon one with a bunch{basically full of caularpa} with a small light to keep it alive will make the pods thrive in heavy numbers. A small pinch of flake food put into the refugium ever day or so will also make the pods reproduce in high numbers.

[Outerbank]

Oops, meant SteveP. Really, my answer stays as it is. If you have about 100 pounds of LR and a refugium, you may be able to keep a pair. These are the easiest fish to keep alive if you can have enough natural food for them. My male was as thin as a rail when my friend gave him to me. He is now fat. My female that I bought myself was never thin. I would never mediacate the tank if you get a mandarin--that would likely destroy all their natural food.

Scott

[SteveP]

Well, I've got a 135 gal. tank with ~110 lbs. of LR. I have caulerpa growng in my sump. No "Proper" refugium, but there seems to be a decent population of 'pods. I think it could be a little more robust though. I'm dealing with a little Ich problem now, and my tank is fishless so I won't be buying any new critters for a few weeks anyway :(.

Thanks for the comments, folks.

Steve
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[Dleeann]

Im new here so please excuse me if Im looking in the wrong place. I saw skinny on mandarin and thought I would find answers. Instead Im getting a bit worried. I inherited a 14 year old , 55 gal, salt tank about 4 months ago. It has an undergravel filter, clown fish, coral beauty and a little purple fish that have been around for years. The rocks were collected from the ocean over the last 14 years and, in my ignorance, I believe they are live. . At the aquarium store they advise that the rocks provide enough to keep the mandarin healthy. I wonder about this after reading your posts and watching the last one get skinny. I returned the first one to the store after about 6 weeks. I bought a new one about 1 month ago and he looks to be losing weight as well. My nitrite and ammonia in this tank are fine but my ph is kinda high and my nitrate is off the scale. Can you please advise me if I need to find another home for the mandarin due to the food supply, ph or nitrates? Or can you prescribe a quick fix for me? I do appreciate your help and I hope to be a long time member of this site in the future instead of a woman who gets primarily boggled by her inheritance.... Thanks so much!

[Outerbank]

Dleeann,

It appears that your tank cannot sustain the food supply for a mandarin. I would recommend finding it a god home rather than returning it to a pet store. A refugium (especially if it is gravity fed), is very helpful. I am fortunate because I have a large tank and a 50 gallon gravity fed refufium. I also live by a beautiful saltwater bay system and collected about 25 pounds of very live sand and grassbeds for my refugium last summer. This really gave my system a boost. These fish are hardy and can put all the weight back on if put in a system with a lot of natural food. Otherwise, they will slowly starve. Starving, IMO, is the only thing that seems to kill them. But, unfortunately, too many of them starve since they seldom eat prepared foods.

Scott

[Dleeann]

Thank you so much for your quick reply. I must say that I am a bit purturbed by the fact that Ive bought two of these fish, after giving detailed descriptions of my tank, from people that say, Hey, no problem! They will be fine. The first Mandarin I had became very lethargic and my friend said, he looks like he's lost weight... This second one was huge when I got it and now it looks normal. Wow. What a bummer. I wish I had someone to give it to. You know anyone in S. Fl. that has a nice tank that would want him? I dont want to take him back to the store. Thanks again!

[SteveP]

Dleean,
What have you been feeding the mandarin since you've had him?

Everyone else,
Woudn't brine shrimp help keep it alive until she could do something to get her 'pod population up? I'm all for returning the fish or giving it to someone who can keep it alive, but in case she can't find anyplace, what can she do?

Steve
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[Dleeann]

I feed the tank one cube of Prime Reef or Formula Two, per day. There are four fish in there counting the mandarin. He does seem to eat off of the rocks but he has become smaller and less active.

I have to ask this seemingly silly question... Pods??? Im getting an idea but if I have 12- 14 year old rock that was initially taken from the ocean, should they already have these pods??? They do have a good amount of growth on them but I have had some heavy algae blooms recently and wonder if that has affected these "pods."

Also, if I put brine in my tank will that affect my bio filter? Its under gravel. You are talking about live brine, right?

Since I have your attention and you seem to know a heck of a lot... A couple of people have told me to put a wet/dry filter on the tank. Do you think this is advisable, given the fact that the tank has been up for so long without it? Would it clean too much bacteria out?

I really do appreciate your help. Ive asked many people and get different answers from everyone.

Sincerely grateful,
Dleeann

[BrianD]

Hi Dleean,

You might want to check this thread (http://www.reefcentral.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=3802) for some information on mandarins.

As for your immediate questions, a mandarin sustains itself from copepods and other microcrustacea that inhabit reefs. To keep one alive in a home aquarium, it is necessary to provide the proper habitat for these small critters to breed. Some mandarins will accept prepared foods, but any prepared foods would have to be looked at as supplemental to their main diet of pods. An active live sand bed and live rock are normally required to properly sustain a mandarin, assuming no refugium or other food source is attached. I would doubt that your tank (which I assume has a crushed coral substrate) can provide the environment a mandarin needs. Live rock is important, but I believe the substrate is just as critical.

Nitrate levels shouldn't have any affect on the mandarin, so I wouldn't be concerned in that regard unless you are planning on keeping corals at some point.

Your UG filter may be contributing to your nitrate problems. UG filters are very high maintenance, and require frequent cleaning of tubes and vaccuuming of substrate to remove detritus. If allowed to build up, these materials can be harmful to your tank inhabitants. Your algae bloom may have been caused by too much of a build-up of waste materials and detritus.

A wet-dry filter usually requires the use of a sump, although there are some hang-on types. In your application, as long as your have live rock in your tank, you really don't need the wet-dry for biological filtration. Your live rock (if you have sufficient amounts) should handle that.

Before I make too many more assumptions, maybe you can post some more about the amount of rock you have, type of substrate, powerheads/pumps, and type of maintenance you perform.

Brian

[JHemmer]

Brian-

Can you tell me if a mandarin would eat baby cleaner shrimps?

I have two skunk cleaner shrimps in my 30g and they breed every two weeks. In addition to their babies, my tank has been up for a year, I have a pod pile going and about 55 lbs of LR.

I bought a mandarin about a month ago and it didn't last a week. I was very frustrated and felt bad that it died. However, because it died so fast, I believe it may not have been anything that I did.

What's your opinion on this?

Thx-

John

[BrianD]

Hi John,

Purely conjecture on my part, but I don't know any reason why the mandarin wouldn't eat the baby cleaners, as long as they are small enough for its mouth. A mandarin will eat adult mysis, and size-wise that would be comparable.

I don't think your mandarin would have starved in a week. They are normally very hardy (if they feed), so it may be that you got one that was already sick/weak.

I normally wouldn't recommend a mandarin in a 30 gallon tank long-term. A small mandarin may find enough food, but as it grows you will find that its appetite grows exponentially.

Brian

[Dleeann]

Thanks for the info Brian. I really couldnt begin to guess how much the live rock weighs. I have a 55 gallon long tank and I would guess that if you could lay all of the rock flat across the bottom , it would be 3-4 inches tall. Many salt water fish people have seen it and think I have a good amount. As for pods, Im not sure what they look like and I cant tell you whether I have them. I do have some other creatures flourishing in there that dont eat the prepared foods. I have three Pencil urchins and a couple of sand crabs. Anyway I have about 2 - 2 1/2 inches of crushed coral and two powerheads. Maintenance wise, when I first got the tank, about 5 months ago, It took me about a month and a half before I did the first water change. The guy that had it for the 14 years before me told me that the only thing he did with it was add ocean water when it got low and change 20% water with ocean water every two months. He cleaned the gravel with a piece of garden hose. After quickly killing two sea anenomes I realized that the salt was off the scale and it took about two months of adding clean fresh water(and one 20% fresh water change) for me to get the salinity down. At some point I put a mandarin in there and kept if for about 6 weeks. I noticed he was slim and lethargic so I took him back to the store. When the salinity was finally down to tolerable levels, I got another anenome and the current mandarin. It took 3 weeks for the anenome to croak and I finally bought a test kit. Then I realized my nitrates were off the scale and the ph was 8.6. I did a 10 gallon water change immediately and another 5 later that week. That was about a week ago. I then noticed that my mandarin wasnt pecking at the rocks much any more and was looking a bit thinner. I changed 5 more gallons out last nite and started searching for info. Think Im cleaning all the food out of the coral?
I have attempted to answer your questions in the best way I know how, I am a bit clueless, but boy, am I determined!. I am wondering whether I should bag trying to keep mandarins (I know the anenomes are out for now) or whether there are some simpler things I can do to keep them alive. They are so beautiful. I sought internet advice as shopkeepers tend to all say so many different things. I have to wonder if they are just trying to sell me stuff. Like a 45 dollar clam to eat nitrates...

I am very grateful for your help.
Dleeann

[Dleeann]

PS..Brian... I havent cleaned the powerheads on the tank and they are pretty nasty. this is because I dont really know how to.

[BrianD]

Hi Dleean,

I don't know what type of anemone you purchased, but they require pristine water conditions and high lighting. You haven't mentioned your lighting, but I would stay away from these, as you have suggested.

If you truly want another mandarin someday, I would remove the crushed coral and undergravel filter, and replace it with a live sand bed. You can buy oolitic sand and seed it, which is much cheaper than buying all new live sand. With your live rock, sand bed, and good circulation, you will be well on your way to success, without near the maintance headaches of a UG filter. Your live sandbed will provide the bioligical filtration (with help from the live rock). You could use a hang-on filter with the media removed to help with proper circulation and aeration of the tank.

Bottom line, a UG filter set-up may work OK with a fish only tank, but if you are interested in fish species that need a reef habitat (like a mandarin), or if you want corals, you should design your tank appropriately.

If you decide to stick with what you have, just remember to vacuum your crushed coral about once a month (a garden hose is fine, but remember to replace water you siphon out with water of the same salinity). All you have to do to clean the powerheads is to remove them from the uplift tubes and unscrew them. You will see the motor and any built-up gunk. More importantly, use something to clean the build up inside the uplift tubes.

See this link (http://www.bestfish.com/ug2.html) for more info on the UGF debate. Keep in mind (again) that UF are never recommended for reef aquariums.

Brian

[Dleeann]

Thanks again Brian. But now Im off in a different direction... Is it possible to put the water and the fish in a bucket, take out the gravel and UG filter, put in sand and return the fish on the same day?

[BrianD]

Working on a response, it will be coming soon :)

Brian

[Dleeann]

I am not expecting a simple answer. Just dreaming of getting this thing taken care of in an afternoon. I will probably go to the beach and get some nice live rock and also try the brine shrimp. If he doesnt plump up then I will adopt him out and skip the mandarins.

Somehow I thought fishkeeping would be easier with a 14 year old established tank.

Thank you so much!

[BrianD]

You should be able to move your tank in a day, and the fish should be ok. Put a powerhead in the bucket and a heater to maintain the proper temp, and an airstone to keep the water oxygenated. Same for the live rock.

Pull your yucky crushed coral and the ug filter out, and replace it with 2-4 inches of oolitic or aragonite sand. FWIW, some reefers prefer a bare tank bottom (no substrate), but if you go this route you will have to add live rock accordingly for detrification, and live rock is not as efficient as live sand. Plus, a live sand bed will allow you to keep some species you wouldn't be able to otherwise (mandarins for one :) )

A fresh-out-of-the-bag sand bed is not "live". When you add your live rock, the sandbed will be "seeded" with life from the live rock. Additionally, you can buy a pound or so of live sand from a LFS (or even better find a fellow reefer who will give you some) and add it to your tank. Over a period of time your sand bed will become "live" with worms, etc and bacteria.

Assuming you put your water back into the tank (with any additional make-up water), your tank should pretty much be ready to add the fish. I moved a 180 gallon tank, totally replaced the sandbed, and added fish within a couple of days. I only waited a few days to allow the "dust" to settle from the sand.

It is very important to get a good reading on your salinity, and make sure you don't make any significant changes. Same goes for temperature. Again, if you reuse most of your water, there shouldn't be much risk.

As I mentioned before, you can consider a hang on filter to aid in circulating your water, or better yet a protein skimmer (there are several inexpensive skimmers appropriate for your size tank. Just do a search and you will find all sorts of opinions)

Hope this helps.

Ask away for any other questions :)

Brian

[Dleeann]

Thanks! I have many questions and think I need some definitions. I have to run now but I will revisit this tomorrow. I really appreciate your help. This turned out to be a much bigger job than I thought. Thanks again!