Frogspawn Harmful to False Clowns?

[Uhu]

I have a mated pair of Ocellaris clowns that have taken on a large frogspawn as an anemone surrogate over their previous colony of xenia for about 4 months.

During this time I've noticed that the female has developed small indentations in her skin about 3 mm in diameter (sort of like shallow craters). The skin seems intact though the affected areas occasionally have tufts of puffy white stuff from these areas (fungus?). These lesions come and go and seem to heal after a week or so.

Lately, I noticed that the tissue covering the front spine of the male's dorsal fin is receding exposing the bony spine.

Both fish however are doing well - eating like champs and breeding regularly.

I'm concerned though that the frogspawn may somehow be exuding chemicals that irritates and erodes the fishs' skin.

I don't want to give up the frogspawn but will if it is the cause. Anyone have similar experiences? Thanks.

[chris_h]

My bubble coral kept hurting my clown. The clown got popeye and went blind and starved to death.

[mgk65]

My clowns have also taken with my frogspawn. They will rarely leave the branches. At first, they would have various scratches, dark spots, light spots and other types of surface problems. These slowly went away, although they are a little darker where they continuously rub the frogspawn. As of a couple of days ago, they laid eggs for the first time.

I would keep an eye on them and if it gets worse or you see no improvement, then remove the frogspawn.

Make sure you feed them well with good food and Selcon every day. I also feed mine garlic juice dripped on the food every day, too.

mgk

[Uhu]

Thanks for your reply. About how long have your clowns taken to the frogspawn?

Also, have you experienced some mouths of the frogspawn gaping, exposing the white innards? Mine seems to be doing this, however looks fine otherwise - fully expanded. I'm not sure if the cause is the clowns or something else (infection?).

[mgk65]

It's been 5-6 months, I'd say.

I see the mouths gaping sometimes, but don't know what it is. The frogspawn has split since, so probably nothing.

mgk

[hcs3]

hi uhu

i have personally seen clowns take residence in a frogspawn with no harm coming to either the coral or fish. i wouldn't be so sure that this is always the case, however.

the gaping coral could be a sign of needing to be fed, or the anticipation of being fed. since the clowns now live in the frogspawn it is likely that they are feeding it, whether intentionally or not.

these are just my guesses, however, so i'm going to move this thread over to eric's forum and see if he has any additional insight he can add.

HTH

henry

[Ironreef]

Mine has been living in frogspan for a year no problem. No garlic just good feedings. it wedges itself in the braches at night and bites anything anyone coming near the coral. The coral at first didn't like the clown but over time it received the clown and opens real nice.

[EricHugo]

This is very interesting and I am going to shift this to Frank's forum as it involves clownfish behavior more than coral behavior. I have several articles on the nature of the clownfish association and the mechanisms of them being able to adapt to nematocyst- carrying animals. I would say that expereince shows that the clownfish can tolerate a number of hosts that act as surrogates to their natural anemones. However, and even with anemones, there is an adjustment period where the clowfish will take some damage while it becomes "acclimated" to its host and this appears to reside with the mucus coat of the fish. But, that aside, these reports of heavy damage are interesting because it would seem to me that a clownfish would not stay in an "inappropriate" surrogate if its own health was compromised. Perhaps the initial small damage became infected or subject to secodnary problems that was the demise of the clownfish rather than being attributed directly to the new host animal.

[EricHugo]

This is vert interesting and I am going to shift this to Frank's forum as it involves cownfish behavior more than corla behavior. I have several articles on the nature of the clownfish association and the mechanisms of them being able to adapt to nematocyst- carrying animals. I would say that expereince shows that the clownfish can tolerate a number of hosts that act as surrogates to their natural anemones. However, and even with anemones, there is an adjustment period where the clowfish will take some damage while it becomes "acclimated" to its host and this appears to reside with the mucus coat of the fish. But, that aside, these reports of heavy damage are interesting because it would seem to me that a clownfish would not stay in an "inappropriate" surrogate if its own health was compromised. Perhaps the initial small damage became infected or subject to secodnary problems that was the demise of the clownfish rather than being attributed directly to the new host animal.

[FMarini]

Hi:
Eric brings up a good point.
Most of these clowns go thru an adjustment period where they are adapting to their new hosts by acclimating their mucus coating. During this time they do infact recieve "hits' from their hosts, and If i recall correctly this was an adaptive method, similar to us reciving vaccines (using the same organism as where being vaccinated againist). Over a few days to a week the fish is able to adapt to its new host.

So apparently the fish have incured some tissue damage and it sounds like it just might be infected. I'm not sure why it is not healing.
The white puffs do sound like a skin fungus, but apparently your fish are healthly enuf that they can fight this infection off.
Like Eric mentions i would not expect a fish to stay in an environment where their health is in danger. So there must be another cause underlying this. we are just missing it.
let me think about this one and i will also ask others in the fish disease section to take a gander.
frank

[Uhu]

Thank you all for your input. Just wanted to post an update. The ocellaris pair seems to be doing better. Though two spine tips of the dorsal fin of the male are slightly exposed, the skins of both male and female seem to be clearing up. This seems to support the above theory that the fishes need time to adapt to the chemicals secreted by the frogspawn host.

Also, the gaping may be due to a form of asexual reproduction. I took a brief look one of the
polyps that was gaping after returning from vacation for 8 days. It seems during that time that this polyp is now forming into three from one. I also wonder if this a form of repair more than propogation.