Will this work?

[vermonter310]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500934

It's a short thread. Any thoughts on the probability that this may work? My main concern is that it would possibly kill off the "good" Bacteria and create a cycle.
Like the person that started the thread, my sand is a constant red, and has been for months. I have lowered the flow in the tank(thanks Denise and Bryan) and it is no longer present on the rocks but still on/in the sand I don't see how I can increase the flow any lower without having a constant sand storm! I do plan on swapping out the MJ's with seio's soon but I am methodical about doing things like this(read: Lazy):D Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

[Hedonist]

I have yet to read the link, but I know when you say you have lowered the flow... it is the 'altitude'", not the flow rate you speak of :p ;)

[scbauer]

Just out of curiosity, why do you start your own thread when you can just participate in the thread that already exists?

[Hedonist]

Mike I personally would not go there.... have you fixed the silica levels? Look at a cleaner crew... And you do not have to point the PH directly down into the sandbed but you can have it low enough so that it blows across the surface....... I had two PHs in the back of my tank behind the LR wall.... they are so low the intake fitting sits on the sand bed... once it gets established or whatever you want to call it.. you will not have a constant sandstorm.. it will 'equilibrate" so to speak....., heck you can even turn the PH on its side to get it lower across the sandbed..

I am not really sure what the answer is but I would be concerned.. I do not like drugging my tanks... I don not think it is natural or necessary...

What exactly is in your tank... maybe you need some filter feeders? I know you don't have your sump yet, but that will help with flow too...maybe add another PH or two? Some say 10-20X gph is required... what is your gph? Also do you have a skimmer?

One thing I know for sure, before you use phosban, be prepared for a water that looks like leachate:eek2: :eek2:
Denise

[vermonter310]

scbauer,
I started this thread in our club forum to elicit some suggestions(about the prior thread topic) from people I know and trust. I didn’t know if they would see it, or find intrest in it, in the reef discussion forum.

Denise,
you are correct I lowered the altitude! I am going to increase flow. I will soon be ordering a couple Sieo 820's (or 1100's which I believe are out now or will be comming out soon). I plan to move the mags behind the rocks and put the Sieo's where the mag's were at each side of the tank. that would put me up around 2500gph , The 1100's would be about 3100gph. I'm at about 900gph right now, so a little over 10x.
The tank has been up over a year now and I've been fighting this for a substantial amount of that time. I've changed my lights(the bulbs) raised my KH, bought an RO/DI unit and blacked out the tank a number of times all with little results. I am using Southdown which is very fine and I don't think lends itself to having a PH blow across the top of it as larger grained substrates might. I don't really want to drug my tank either. Soooo......Next step is increasing flow. What would you suggest for filter feeders? As far as the silica goes It's at about 1ppm, Most people I've talked with seem to think thats not enough to be worried about. I will however upgrade my RO element to a HI-S when I need to replace it.
Well, I guess I knew I shouldn't do it, but secretly was hoping this was the magic bullet!
I've been following your Phosban thread, Is it getting any better??

Mike

[Hedonist]

I know what ya mean when you want to discuss stuff with people you know... I have southdown as well, but mine is covered with a layer of larger sand... Not sure I will do that again... Bryan has his mixed together, I think I like that approach... when I set up my new tank, I will probably mix some of my deep sand bed layers and put it into my new tank to help seed it......

Filter feeders include feather dusters, clams, sponges, tunicates etc... do you have any corals at all? If cyan is bacteria one could assume that filter feeders and perhaps some corals- possilbly non-photsynthic corals and filter feeders would consume some of the bacteria???? I think you said you have some snails... maybe you want to look at some crabs and a sandsifting starfish too..... I think Kathy said she had baby starfish that she would like to unload....I will probalby hit her up on thoswe soon....

I wonder what the others that tend to have cyano problems have for a sandbed? Do you blast ot stir your sandbed sometimes?

As for Phosban....Rob lent me his diatom filter.. really helped to increase the visibility but I ran out of time and media... hope to make it over there today to run it some more..... I HIGHLY reccommend at least running the first few gallons (at a min) outside the tank and if your fluidized bed does not hae a sponger over the top... add one!

TTYL
Denise

[cam2]

hello all, i have been fighting the same problem with the cyno. i've been looking into solutions to this problem. what i've been told is to increase water flow, ad micro algea to use up nutrients and skim more. i've done all of this so far and haven't seen any real results yet. i don't want to medicate my tank. every one that really knows what they are talking about says to never medicate your tank. and to find out what is causing the problem and fix that. also i've been told fighting conch snails will eat the cyno. but this doesn't solve are problems. it just hides them.

good luck, and please share new info on this.

chad

[ME2003]

Adding Erythromyacin to a tank is not a good idea. It will
remove the red slime and kill a lot of bacteria. This will increase
the nutrients in the water and when the red slime returns it
can be worse The bacteria and red slime? will become resistant to Erythromyacin. Antibotics should always be used with caution.
Good water flow and quality protein skimming are the best
ways to remove red slime.
Removing phosphate should help. If you are adding calcium hydroxide, this may help remove phosphate and increase ph
also. I believe there are threads that discuss this in detail.


may help.

[Hedonist]

Sorry for being airheaded ... I cannot remember who ME2003 is... i am guessing Mike Esty???? Nice fish10 in the gallery... do you still have it?

Mike B are you currently using a skimmer?

[ME2003]

Yes It is Mike Esty. I sold all my tanks and fish. Dan purchased
fish10. It and several corals are doing great in his tank. I was amazed to see the rate they were growing in his tank. I believe
Anna or Becky will post some pictures from the tank tour. I am in the process of setting up a 140 gallon tank. I have had many tank setups 29,30,40,75,90,120 gallon tanks. Each time I learn more about marine aquariums. Going on tank tours is also very helpful. Dan's PFO moonlights and Ocean Motion systems work very well. I will start another thread on the new tank setup.
A good protein skimmer is very helpful in controlling red slime
algae. Here is the list of item I would check on a tank with Red slime.
1. Protein Skimmer
2. Water circulation
3. Lighting (I believe that red slime does not like
high light levels)
4. Water handling/purification

A water test may change the priority somewhat. Many
water test do not check for protein/organics compounds.
ORP testers and Protein test kits are available but the results
can difficult to understand.

[cabin]

Mike, have you tried using a sucking device or your hand to clean the sand every day? When I was having cyano problems before I got RO, I would roll sheets of the stuff off the sand and lift it out. I then bought a battery powered sludge extractor. I don't need it anymore, you are welcome to borrow it if you want to try it. My cyano problem went away BEFORE I got the RO system installed, and daily extraction was what I was doing when it went away. I don't presume to say that "cured" it, nothing about this stuff is that simple, I'm sure it was a combination of many things. But physical extraction does seem worth a try if you haven't done so.

BTW, I did use antiobiotic for blue-green algae in my freshwater tank last year. I was desperate, the stuff stank, the fish couldn't breathe, I couldn't breathe. I followed instructions posted on a freshwater site (could get you the link if you are interested), treating with a low dose over more than a week, as I recall. Everything was fine for months, then it began to come back. I treated again, then decided not to do freshwater anymore so took the tank down. I can certainly relate to the urge for this cure, and the frustration levels you must be feeling.
Wynne

[vermonter310]

Thanks Wynne,
I'll try to post a pic soon. It's not really "on" the sand bed but rather more a part of it. If that makes any sense. I would need to vacume out the top layer of sand( which I have done) and replace it with new sand(which I've done) it just comes right back within a couple days. I was doing water changes (about 10%)with RO/DI about every third or fourth day for about a month and a half. No help. The TDS of my RO/DI is 2. I know my source water is high in silica. but testing post RO/DI get's it down to about 1ppm. I've even used Bottled RO for a while with no results. Ammo reads 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate about 5(left the filter floss in the power filter a little long) Silica 1ppm, Phos 0, PH 7.9- 8.4 depending on when I test it and DKH is 8. All the tank inhabitants seem very happy, I also know my bio load is high. (can't help myself sometimes;-), Denise, you had asked about corals, I have a mushroom rock with about 12 shroooms on it, a small torch and a fairly large pulsing xenia.
I just ordered two seio 1100's which will add 2200gph to my 72g tank. for a total of 3085gph not counting the powerfilter or skimmer. I've just changed my actinic bulbs and will be changing the whites when ever they get here, been on backorder for nearly a month!
If I don't see some changes by march I will most likely remove the sand bed. However I may try removeing the fish and corals and doseing the tank with Erythromyacin then allow it to cycle again befor returning the livestock. worst case senario is it only works for a short while. I don't buy into the apparent belief that using an antibiotic will immediatly create a super strain of red bacteria.

I sometimes think I'm on Mars with all this red sand!

Mike

[Hedonist]

Mike I sure hate to see you put your tank thru more drugs..... how about trying to remove your sand slowly (or lower the sandbed depth) and see how that works before removing everything and basically poisoning the tank.... again...:(

I am not totally sure it is caused from the silica but.. I have seen silica and PO4 filter pads.. maybe you can try that for a while as well

Good luck and I know we are addicts but....... JUST SAY NO :o

Denise

[vermonter310]

LOL, Once and addict.....

I don't really want to do it either. Like I said before, I'm going to try a few more things before I really even seriously consider doing that. I was able to amend my order at fishsupply.com and went from the seio 1100's to the 1500's !! I didn't even know they were out. I even hear there is a 2000 or something like that comming out soon, but I think close to 3900gph in a 72 should be plenty :D. It may even be too much in which case I'll be able to get rid of some of the maxi jets. I'm going to replace my RO membrane with a HI-S one when I need to, which should remove all of the silica, I think I may add a second DI stage to my unit as well. So the next few steps are:

#1 Increase flow
#2 Change lights (actincs done, white's on backorder)
#3 Add second DI stage
#4 Replace RO with HI-S Membrane
#5 bigger and better skimmer. Da^^n those things are expensive!

Mike

[Hedonist]

You are not kidding about the skimmers.. what are you looking at for a skimmer? Might as well get one big enough for your upgraded tank ;)

Denise

[vermonter310]

Havn't really looked all that hard yet. I'm also going to look into building one myself. At least for the large tank since it won't be seen.

[smtarr]

Mike, I'm not very experienced but here's my 2 cents worth. Nix the erytromycin. NEVER a good idea to poison a tank. I had a problem with red slime, not sure if cyano or not. I bought a CHEAP 'tap water filter' $29 or something. My source water has phosphates. All I did was what Wynne suggested and took out as much as I could with my hands and paper towels and switched to DI water from that cheap little tap water filter. Red slime went away within a month, never to have returned to this day! Mine got worse when the lights came on and receeded when lights off. The playsand may be a problem as I've heard there are 2 different kinds that Home Depot used to sell. I covered my Southdown with a half inch layer of coarser stuff so I wasn't having a constant sand storm. I'd try adding a thin layer of courser sand to your bed and adding DI water for your make up water. Let us know how it goes. I now have a cyano problem in the new tank I set up for my tomato clowns, but I expect that with the same routine I used on my display tank it'll soon be gone too. BTW on my 'tap water filter' I've had to replace the DI resin chamber twice, it doesn't last that long maybe 6 wks or so, but the refills are only $18! Good luck. Sue

[vermonter310]

smtarr, & everyone,

Thanks for the info/advice, I have already done or am doing everything everyone has offered as solutions. I have done a ton of research in this issue. The conclusion? I have gone against the traditional wisdom (once again)and dosed the tank with Erythromyacin. The red is nearly gone! Everything I read from people that did it, thats, from people that did it, was positive. Since when did an antibiotic become poison? Perhaps now I have a leg up and my little closed system will begin to operate in a more balanced way. That's my belief anyway.
I want everyone to understand that I do value and did consider your input when making my decision and I appriciate your comments very much. I'll keep everyone (who is interested) updated.
Thanks again,
Mike

[Hedonist]

Antibiotics are a poison to something:p ,, as the name implys... it is used to kill off micro-organisms and bacteria -just being only slightly sarcastic here;)

My main concern are the beneficial bacteria that are possibly taken down with the bad guys.. we work and wait so long to get what we hope is a good system going and in balance... just my $0.02

Keep us updated on the tank and progress... would have been interesting to have the water plated out to see what grows before and after treatment..not sure what kind of agar would be used or if it would be helpful to us..

Denise

[vermonter310]

Originally posted by Hedonist
we work and wait so long to get what we hope is a good system going and in balance... just my $0.02


Denise

My point exactly! I don't think a tank overrun with red slime is "in balance" It's been two days and the tank looks brand new! And so far no Ammonia.

Mike

[cabin]

Mike, my experience when I used it on the freshwater is that the dose was so low, the "good" bacteria seemed unaffected. No spikes, no problems. I think sometimes "drastic" approaches are appropriate, especially when you've already tried all the conservative approaches. LIke you, I've read a lot on this topic (had to!) and I think the worst that can happen here is it might come back someday. IN the meantime (and hopefully for a long time), enjoy the view!

[Hedonist]

(quote)what we )HOPE is a good system(/quote

The key word...

:D

Good luck

[Hedonist]

my attempt at the quote thing did not work quite right... how did you do that anyway... should spend more time getting around in RC:rolleyes:

[vermonter310]

Originally posted by cabin
Mike, my experience when I used it on the freshwater is that the dose was so low, the "good" bacteria seemed unaffected. No spikes, no problems. I think sometimes "drastic" approaches are appropriate, especially when you've already tried all the conservative approaches. LIke you, I've read a lot on this topic (had to!) and I think the worst that can happen here is it might come back someday. IN the meantime (and hopefully for a long time), enjoy the view!

I agree, there is a risk. I too used a very low dose. About enough for 20g in my 72. Hopefully:D my system will be more capable of dealing with it ( more in balance)if it does try to return. I didn't realize how drab everything looked until now

:beer: Thanks

Mike

[vermonter310]

Originally posted by Hedonist
my attempt at the quote thing did not work quite right... how did you do that anyway... should spend more time getting around in RC:rolleyes:

Denise,
I just use the reply with quote link in the upper right corner of the post I want to quote! I delete what I don't want.

Mike

[spotfin]

Mike,
Hope it works well in your system. Do the inverts seem affected by the treatment?

[Hedonist]

How long is the treatment for Mike? Sha we bring you in some sand, rocks, chaeto or 'bio-sponges' at the next meet to boost your system?

Thanks for the quote tip.. never noticed that.....I tried going thru the vB code crap...

[vermonter310]

Jason, Nothing seems affected really. Except that the entire tank seems brighter and cleaner!

Denise, I started doing small water changes after 48hrs. Done 2 so far. Each a day apart. running some carbon and turned the skimmer back on as well. I don't plan on adding any more. Thanks for the offer but I don't think it's necessary. No Am so far. I'm off to run some more test right now.

Mike