Dr. Shimek article about Filter Feeders (AFM-April 2000)

[Carlos]

I was reading Dr. Shimek’s article “Reef Aquarium Ecosystems: It’s all in how they filter the water� in the April issue of Aquarium Fish Magazine (pp 62-70). This article explained how filter feeders work and get their food. Very interesting and would encourage everyone to read it!

Anyway, He mentioned the fact that in our aquariums, the only constant source of filter food is our sand bed. When he meant constant, I think he was referring to 24/7. This leaves me with a little bit of concern because I do not think that the sandbed can supply enough food for our animals. He also mentioned that there are other sources of food such as Phytoplankton. Now, I personally feed phytoplankton to my tank every other day. I ask myself, it this enough for the corals and clams? or are they slowly starving. I know light provides food for some corals but light does not provide the necessary, shall I say, fiber for the corals to create tissue.

My question is, what do you guys feed your tank? I was considering feeding phytoplankton everyday for my tank but due to the price, I am unable to do it at this time. How about feeding phytoplankton (live) every other day, and some type of dried or frozen plankton the rest of the time? How about taking it even further and having a constant drip of dried dissolved plankton to the tank all the time? (Similar to dosing Kalk) Has anyone tried it and with how much success?

Here I am reading the article (little bit behind as you can see!) and looking at my tank, specially my clams and SPS and asking myself. If I was a filter feeder, it would bite if I got to eat only every other day or just five minutes every day. I would be hungry most of the time!!! I am not trying to blame anyone nor start a fight here. My interest is mainly for the well being of the animals that reside in my tank.

Can you imagine if we had some time of constant dosing mechanism for phytoplankton! Think of the potential and the doors it would open in terms of coral care in home aquarium!!! What do you guys think?


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Carlos
Carlos' Great Barrier (http://www.ntsource.com/~cchaco2)
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Please, take care of the ocean and its inhabitants. They're all we've got!

[badgers]

is it the consensus that the cryopaste goes "bad" after an hour(decay, breakdown) or is it that the cryopaste gets consumed in about an hour, or does it settle out in about an hour?

I can attest to the skimmate being full of cryopaste. I do a daily water change of about 3.5-4 gallons. This is a result of my skimmer almost filling a 5 gallon bucket with skimmate. My skimmate is wet in the morning(just comming on) but at night it becomes rather dry. Maybe I should run the skimmer longer if the cryopaste is just breaking down. My alge turf grows an amazing amount in a day and I guess that this phyto would be the source of nutrients.

Anyway I have a vat of salt water with a power head and heater ready to replace the water that is extracted by the skimmer. This skimmate water is GREEN.
If the cryopaste goes "bad" after an hour that kind of kills the continuous drip method. I guess I would have to stop being lazy and grow live phyto to run through the continuous drip method. :)
Also, I guess I would need to add some zoo plankton.
Forget it I am going to start keeping goldfish. :D

[hesaias]

I think the dosing Idea wouls be good. You could just mix the same amount you feed every other day, maybe more, and drip it in slowly. Sounds reasonable. My cryopaste, I mix a couple of drops in some water and pour, with a spoon (tiny) of Golden Pearls or two. The GPs might seperate from the water, though.

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hesaias

My Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[rshimek]

Hi,

Carlos, THANK YOU!!!

Somebody got the point of the article....

Cheers, Ron

[jimhobbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rshimek:
Somebody got the point of the article....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What point!?! ;) Now I gotta go get the magazine and try and figure out if I can keep the animals that I already keep! :D I hate it when ya'll make me work for my supper!... :)

have fun guys!...jim

[Aquaman]

Hesaias,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>with a spoon (tiny) of Golden Pearls or two. The GPs might seperate from the water, though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are Golden Pearls??

Carlos,
I use a Kent doser to drip a small amount of cryopaste each day and dose another amount each evening when the lights go out.

[hesaias]

Golden Pearls are a synthetic live food substitute, 60% protein, from Brine shrimp direct. I feed them with cryopaste for inverts. The 200-300 micron size seems big enough for the fish to eat also

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hesaias

My Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[badgers]

they have a version of the golden peraals which is 60-100 microns with the same nutritional(sp?) content.
I feed 6 ml of tahitian blend every night with the golden perals.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I was a filter feeder, it would bite if I got to eat only every other day or just five minutes every day<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I turn off the skimmer for about 8 hrs after I feed phytoplankton(skimmer is on a timer).
I think the phytoplankton stays in the water column for more then just five min. This is just my opinion but my water stays green for a long time(kind of a yellow green)
Get the 500ml pump bottle of cryopaste. I think that this is an economical way to provide the phyto.
thank you for your time and have a good day

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I'm so skeptical, I can hardly believe it!
The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

[Dwayne]

Very interesting thread, but as with any good thread somebody has to ask the dumb question. Here goes:

If we feed phytoplankton, golden pearls, etc... for the filter feeders, at what point (length of time) would this food be exhausted? (I'm sure it depends on tank load, but...)

What I'm understanding is that not all filter feeders feed at the same time of day. If we try to continually feed the filter feeders and run a skimmer, the skimmate would be rather high in nutrional value. Even running the skimmer some of the time would result in 'wanted' nutrients being pulled from the water. Or maybe I just don't understand. :confused:

Dwayne

[This message has been edited by Dwayne (edited 04-25-2000).]

[rshimek]

Hi Dwayne,

Good question.

Wish there was a good simple answer.

The short answer is that the materials get exhausted from the water in our systems in short order.

Most true suspension feeders feed constantly, and clams and sponges can filter an astounding amount of water in a day (moderately large sponges can filter several thousand liters of water a day, same with clams).

Basically the ideal in our system would be to drip in the food much as we dose kalk, but that is hard to do (food decays in storage, etc). Best we can do for these critters is to feed several small doses through the day and go with that.

A single large feeding is probably exhausted to minimal good within an hour or so.

Cheers, Ron

[Aquaman]

Since I run my skimmer for six hours each night, I've been thinking about making up a few batches of cryopaste in a "kent doser" type of container each morning and dose one in the morning, another at lunch, another after work and the last before lights out. Maybe do this for a few months and record any difference in growth.

The only problem I have noticed with my dosing each morning and night is my sandbed might not have enough critters to keep things stirred up. It has developed some brown detrius patches on the top layer of sand :( But I only have about 10 or so blue and red hermits, 4 cukes (brown variety) and maybe about 15 or so snails.

[gas4544]

badgers,
What is the volume of water in your system? Adding 6 ml of Tahitian Blend sounded like allot to me. You must have a pretty darn big tank! That's allot of skimmate, too!

By the way, I grew up in LaCrosse, WI

[hesaias]

Sent BSD an E-Mail asking about the feasability of feeding the GPs and cryopastes this way, Ill let you know when I hear back.

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hesaias

My Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[greasefire]

I really liked that article also Ron. I feed cryo to both tanks and I have seen a great improvement. I can;t wait for BSD to sent me the 20-80 mic pearl feed. I think this week. Thanks to Ron for keeping these feeding topics alive, certainly is fuel for thought! Thanks,
j

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http://www.blueoceandesigns.com

[Carlos]

I was doing some reading at Brine Shrimp Direct and found out that their Tahitian Blend of Algaes can be dripped into the tank just like Kalk.

Here is what they have written:

"Another feeding alternative is to create an "I.V. Drip line". Place the quart bottle in a raised position above the tank and slowly drip the microalgae into the tank using a plastic tube with an adjustable clamp."

This is cheaper than dosing DT's 24/7. I will certainly order it and try it.

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Carlos
Carlos' Great Barrier (http://www.ntsource.com/~cchaco2)
*************************
Please, take care of the ocean and its inhabitants. They're all we've got!

[rshimek]

Carlos,

Please keep us (and me, please) posted on your results!

Thanks a bunch.

Ron

[Heinrich]

Here's the method to feed cyropaste corectly. The drip method works but you need to do it within an hour or so. IT can actually be dangerous with sps corlas to slowly add rotting dead phytoplankton. I suggest to first get your tank programed to opening their feeding apparatuses so feed something safe such as DT daily at the same time then slowly start incorporating cyropaste.
Cyropaste needs to be kept cold. Else it will spoil really fast. It also has a tendency to settle out fast. So the thing you do is get a small fridge, or an Icebox 1.99 Walgreens, Add icey cold water to a sealable jar with the paste. Have a small powerhead in the container such as microjet to keep the mix from clumping and settling. Also keep a load of jelly Icepacs handy and add some airlinehose with airline regulator, compression type. Now gravity feed into system.A really small hole with airline and regulator going out the top to allow air to slowly replace the wate in the drip. This way you can dose 24/7 safely. Just replace the icepacks Every 12hrs when you fill up the reservoir with some more paste. Now the trick is having the skimmer run at very small tank turnover volume else you're wasting most of the paste. With sufficient refugium are you will also be able to produce larger plankton easily and have more of a self sustaining system.
I personally use the APR Artificial Plankton Rotifers, baby brine and brineshrimp when I get a chance. As well as having continous swarms of mysis that migrate through the main pump with no ill effects. Dolphin low speed low pressure 3600. It almost as if there were stars in the tank at night when you shine the light in there because of the reflective eyes.
Remember feeding too much especially rotting phytoplankton can also have bad effects on your tank if not done slowly and carefully. Observe your tank.

This should help.
93! Heinrich

[Carlos]

Just called BSD and talked to them about this and they told me that the Tahitian blend will actually last about 3-4 days outside the refrigerator. They told me that they would not recommend taking it to that extreme but that they do not see any problems if you make enough for only one day.

I went ahead and ordered it and will test the blend for a day. Will make a batch enough for a day but will not drip it. At the end of the day, I will smell it and see if it is still good or not. I figure that if it went bad, some type of foul smell will be present. Only time will tell.

I will keep you posted.

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Carlos
Carlos' Great Barrier (http://www.ntsource.com/~cchaco2)
*************************
Please, take care of the ocean and its inhabitants. They're all we've got!

[hesaias]

Carlos you had better luck than me, I still aint got no answer from those guys. Im gonna try the same thing, lets compare notes. Are you gonna take some pix , you know, before and after? Are you gonna use the cryopaste alone, or try the GoldenPearls too. Maybe we can get a couple of more folks to do the same and gather some data, Whaddya think?

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hesaias

My Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Heinrich]

Maybe in their sealed vacuum tight container. I'm going on information posted by Rob Toonen on the subject. I forget where the original post was. Maybe I'll get time to look for it...
It was about storing and using cyropaste. Anything over an hour dissolved at roomtemperature will start affecting the composition. Rob, Biogeek, critiqued quite a bit of the info those guys gave out. It was in conjunction with doing extensive tests on phytoplankton.
The danger of adding too much fouling matter can easily be overcome if you start programming your corals to feed. Even twice a day would be fine and better than most.
The idea is giving the coral something to digest can help in its producing CO2 which in turn can be used by the symbiotic algae which in turn assists in calcification. So also helpful for sps tanks.
There's a great article by Eric Bornemann in this issue of FAMA on calcification in corals. Actually worth the coverprice this issue.
93! Heinrich

[badgers]

do we know anything about the golden perals and how long before they start to deteriorate?
just wondering.
thank you for your time and have a good day

[Carlos]

Hesaias,

I was hopping that somebody else would try it too so we could compare notes. You read my mind. Also, two are better than one and I think will give more reliable results.

Here is what I will try: (75 gal tank - I will figure out the dosage as soon as I get the stuff and will let you know about it)

Tahitian blend 24/7
DT's every other day
Golden Pearls (60-100) every other day
Also various types of fish food which I will post later (as soon as I figure out how to)

I will take plenty of pictures of the tank and corals, specially SPS and Clams, before the dosage and then every week to see any progress.

Now, I am not a biologist, so if there is something else that I should do, tests, or notes, or anything else that should be taken into consideration, please let me know.

I will post the pictures in my website and let you all know about it.

If you need to, email me at cchaco2@ntsource.com


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Carlos
Carlos' Great Barrier (http://www.ntsource.com/~cchaco2)
*************************
Please, take care of the ocean and its inhabitants. They're all we've got!

[hesaias]

Sounds like a plan, Carlos.
Ill do the same, minus the DTs
Im gonna use a 1 qt jug to drip mine in, and no skimmer between 9pm and 9 am.
Anyone else wanna join in?
Dr Ron, do you have any suggestions to help us gather data that would be usable for others, as far as facts, not just what worked for us?
Any hints would be a great help

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hesaias

My Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Larry M]

You guys might want to ramp up your feedings gradually, or you will end up with the mother of all algae and cyano problems. I just got over a 2 month headache from overfeeding.

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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Snailman]

If cyno and algae is your fear prime your tank with snails for the algae and baby queen conches for the cyno and then let your drip away. :)

[Carlos]

Hesaias,

I think Larry has a valid point and I certaintly do not want an algae problem now. What do you think about starting the dosing during the time the skimmer is off (9 p.m. to 9 a.m.) We could do this for a week or so to let the bacteria in our tank adjust to the high nutrient imput. One thing I have learned in this hobby is that good things always happen slowly.

Lets certainly talk about this before we start, so we are sure that we are doing the same thing at the same time. Also, maybe Dr. Ron has some imput that will help us with this adventure.

Hey, I am excited about this and if my corals and clams knew what was coming, they would probably be screaming at me: FEED ME, FEED ME, FEED ME NOW!!! ;)

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Carlos
Carlos' Great Barrier (http://www.ntsource.com/~cchaco2)
*************************
Please, take care of the ocean and its inhabitants. They're all we've got!

[badgers]

FEED ME SEYMORE!

[Heinrich]

Larry M,
That's what I've been talking about. Especially starting with DT insted of cyropaste is a better idea.
Off the subject.
You remember your sump post on "suggestions to PFO". I recently helped a client with consulting for their new setup and you should direct people to Custom Aquatics. They deal with custom acrilic sumps with all the bells and whistles. Such as fittings, bubletraps for skimmer, lids, carbon bags, etc. Reasonably priced great quality units. Will also build any custom sumps.
So I would call them up and you can refer people if you want to. I think this would be better than the average plexi tank at AES.
Although I like dealing with both as MO places. Custom Aquatic is less aquaculture more aquariums and pleasant to work with.

GENERAL CORAL NUTRITION:
Oh on the what corals eat. I'd have to ask Rob Toonen again on what the reference is, Ron Shimek should know this, but there has been a ground breaking discovery that the guts of most corals contained large quantities of phytoplankton, making it the majority of the food found there. This strongly suggests that phytoplankton could make up the largest part of energy corals utilize in the wild. This was across the range from acroporas to montiporas, LPS, brains,leathers, xenia, gorgonains, polyps, etc. So I believe people should reconsider the need to feed in aquariums. The main problem is that in our systems a lot of the food could rot if it is not alive such as DT before it si consumed. So first program them to eating than you'll suffer less problems with waste or algae blooms. Which aren't really that big of a problem if you go slow and have a ballanced ecosystem. It will adjust and new food levels will be incorporated into the food chains.
Especially when corals have sufficent food they seem to do a whole lot better at out competing even bad cases of nuissance algae pers. obser. Maybe there is evidence supporting this. Ron any ideas?
93! Heinrich


93! Heinrich

[jshowe@liberty.edu]

What ever happened to the test?

[Frick-n-Frags]

Gee, I ran my system for years without feeding anything, not even Bowser my royal gramma. I have serious high flow and no substrate, just lots of LR, algae and no mechanical filtration. Now I feed GP's and DT's maybe once every two weeks and a couple of flakes of food for Bowser and the pepps about every third day.
My stuff doesn't grow at record pace but it grows just fine.

The point: There are other ways to set up a self feeding system.
I pulled my skimmer when it looked like green powdery stuff was being pulled and it sure looked like phyto.

[rpisces]

IMO feeding 1 shot is better than splitting into multiple shots or through dripping. If we add only a small quantity then the concentration in the water will be minimal and the corals would even miss it when it passes by! If you watch the food carefully you would notice that they tends to follow the waterstream and flow around or over or under the corals most of the time!

Most of the food we put in will only circulate the tank a few times especially if they are in the lower water column and would be clogged in between rocks.

[Eduardo cavalcanti]

does anyone here feeds yeast to the tank? i´m currently feeding a small portion every day. when i put it, the water turns cloudy but after 5 minutes, is crystal clear. somebody "eats" it so. i don´t if is the clam, the feather duster, etc. maybe are some smaller organisms, like some plankton.