Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[jim]

I have a personifer angel and a powder blue tang that have had ick on and off for the last month. The amount on the bodies of the fish change throughout the day, often completely disappearing, only to reappear later.

I also have 2 neon gobies, 3 cleaner shrimp, 2 yellow tangs, 5 blue-green chromis, an orange lyretail anthias, flame angel, naso tang, 9 bangaii cardinals, all with no signs of ick ever.

I have a 430 gallon tank (96x25wide x 40 tall) with a 125 gallon sump, 2 36" skimmers (one with ozone), pump moves 4000gph. It also has @ 750 lbs of dead rock that now provides the biological filtration.

My amonia,nitrites and nitrates are all near 0. ORP is @ 210, Temp is 80-82, PH is fairly stable @ 8.2-8.3.

I have also been feeding Formula 1,2, angel food soaked in garlic juice, but have not been adding any to the water itself.

Since the tank is so large, catching fish is not an option. I also don't believe hyposalinity is an option in a show tank with some inverts and mostly health fish (they may get more stressed). I would rather not use copper but have had good results on previous tanks (and I do know the shrimp would be sacrificed).

Any ideas??

Thanks Jim.

[Staceon]

Hey Jim,

Do you have macros or food on a clip for the fish?

[jim]

I do drop broccoli in the tank about once a week.

I am getting ready to add some macros (i think a halameda is first) but wanted to take it slow as I do not nave much experience with this stuff.

[Green Mariner]

Jim, HOLY *&$# thats a lot of water!! I have used and was very happy with MELEFIX, no adverse affects on my corals or inverts, i highly recommend it. I used the melefix along with 2 cleaner shrimp and a UV sterilizer have not seen any ICK in over a year!! Just make sure you turn off your protien skimmers first!!! DON'T USE COPPER!!!!!!!!!! HTH

------------------
Check Out>> Green Mariner's (http://members.home.net/greenmariner) FAQs, Wallpaper, Downloads, and tons more!!

[Staceon]

Broccoli doesn't have much in the way of nutrition. Kind of like you or I eating popcorn; yea it will fill ya up but its just empty.

Try getting some kind of food on a clip or use the macros. You can usually find "seawees selects" at your LFS or Nori at a Asian market. Another choice is Tang Heaven from www.ipsf.com (http://www.ipsf.com) Tangs need a constant supply of food to pick at. Just feeding them once a day some frozen food is usually not enough.

You cant really mess up with macros, but some report hit and miss with trying to feed their fish that particular macro.

Try some constant food supply and see if this boost the immune system for the fish to fight it off naturally.

[Joez]

Dead rock doesn't provide filtration.

If you can't treat them separately or use copper treatments, you can try the "reef safe" medications.

People report some level of success with garlic.

It seems to only be coming and going on those two. Are you sure the water perameters are that good? You mention "near zero" on parameters; you shouldn't be showing any ammonia or nitrites.

How old is the tank?

Any stressors on the fish? The number of fish is low for such a big system, so overcrowding isn't a problem. Are the tangs leaving each other alone? 2 yellow tangs usually mean fighting, and similarly-typed tangs also square off frequently.

[jim]

First, I would like to thank everyone who replied. I really appreciate all the comments, as this has been an ongoing problem.

Staceon, I must disagree with you on the nutritional value of Broccolli. While the Nori may be better (and I am going to try it now), Broccolli is the only thing i have found to effectively heal HLLE in tangs.

Joez, I think you misunderstood my statement about the dead rock. Dead rock will provide biological filtration much like live rock will. It simply provides surface area for the bacteria to grow.

My nitrites and nitrates are 0. My amonia tests at between 0 - .12 PPM (I think that is the right unit. I don't have the kit with me right now.) Even though this is within the "safe zone", I know it could be an issue. I do need to test the water with another kit (which I have)to verify the level.

The tank has been set up for about 6 months.

The tangs do not agressively fight (actual slashing), but do have occasional square-offs where they raise their dorsal fins and then swim away.

[This message has been edited by jim (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Personifier]

Jim,

My personifier angel loves Julian Sprung sea veggies. I have had better luck with copper ( I always use cupermine) than with hyposalinity. Powder Blues are notorious for being ich magnets. In my experience the only way to get rid of ich is to treat the tank or remove all the fish for 4-6 weeks. If treating in the display tank I would go the hyposalinity route. I would never use copper in my main tank.
Now a couple of questions about your personifier. How long have you had it and how big is it? I've had mine for 18 months now. The spots on his face are just starting to really show up. They are a great fish that not too many people have.

Good Luck

Jeff


[This message has been edited by Personifier (edited 09-12-2000).]

[jim]

I have had the personifer for @ 2 1/2 months.

I agree it is a killer fish, especially since they are not common.

He is about 4" long (pretty small), but eats agressively and is quite fat and happy.

One more question.

I know there are different schools of thought on this, but i believe ick is always present in tanks and infests fish when they are stressed.

So, hyposalinity may work to remove the ick for now but it will probably come back. Is it worth taking the chance on stressing the other fish, to save the powder blue?

Also, while the Powder blue is occasionally covered by hundreds of white dots, he often has only 10 or so. He also does not constantly scratch and has not injured himself scratching.

So, am I better off simply trying some different food (Nori and Sprung's stuff), making sure the amonia is 0, and watching to make sure that it doesn't spread, than using coper, hyposalinity or other medication?

By the way, it is pretty cool to watch my fish pull into the shrimp and goby cleaning stations.

JIm

[This message has been edited by jim (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Personifier]

I personally don't believe ich is always present. I could be wrong but I can't see how it can just appear. When I first started in this hobby I made some stupid mistakes and killed quite a few fish. I ended up tearing my tank apart to get rid of the ich. I always quarantine now and I've never had a problem with ich.

Do you notice more spots in the morning and less as the day goes on? If so this is probably due to the fishes color change during the day. The ich is still there just harder to see. I have a powder blue tang in my quarantine tank. I just bought him today. What a beautifull fish.


If it was me I would remove the inverts and do hyposalanity on the fish. I've used it several times and have never lost a fish using it.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Jeff

[O'Man]

Sounds like the infected fish are being stressed by something. Do not know what, but a couple of ideas... Are these fish being chased or harassed by anything else? Any possibility of residual ozone in the water? Low level electrical charge- is the tank grounded? (I do not think grounding is always needed, but it sure sounds like there's a stressor in the woodpile somewhere) As for diet, I would mix it up and varry it widely (nori, any calupera you can find, sprung's stuff... Any chance they will eat spirulina flakes.

Good luck

[jim]

Can I do the hyposalinity with inverts and healthy fish?

I can not remove the inverts. They are too hard to catch.

how long should I reduce the salinity over? I have heard lower it to 1.010-1.0009?

I don't think there could be residual ozone. The fish do eat flake food so i will add that back into their diet.

What about adding garlic juice directly into the water? Anyone done this?

Also, anyone had any luck using Melafix for Ick, other that the one mentioned above? I talked to the company that manufacturers it and they said it is only designed for bacterial infections. That of course does not mean it is not effective for other uses.

Jim

[jim]

Sorry, forgot to answer something.

The tank is grounded.

Also, My thought on ick is that it is always present like bacteria that you and I always have in our systems. They don't make us sick until we get worn down or stressed etc.

With fish it would seem to me to be the same.
This would help explain why only 2 of 25 fish were affected by the ick.

By the way, I have always quarantined my fish for 3-4 weeks, and it definately helps reduce the ick problems.

Jim

[Personifier]

The hyposalanity will kill the inverts.This includes shrimp, snails and hermit crabs. You probably already know that, but I had someone who used hypo and killed their shrimp. They didn't know it was an invert.

I don't think ich is always present. It isn't a bacteria. Itis a parasite which must use a host. If it has no host it will die. Some of your fish may be strong enough to fight it off at the present, but if it keeps multiplying by using your angel and tang as hosts I believe your other fish will eventually be worn down and become infected.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Personifier (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Terry B]

Jim,
People often hold onto the belief that Ich is always present because they don't understand all the ways it can be imported. Bringing in a new fish is not the only way it can get into your tank.
It is possible to have a low level infection for a period of time without seeing spots. This does not mean it is always present in every tank. If the parasite is present and something happens to throw the balance in your tank off then the Ich can begin to get the upper hand. If the parasite is not present then NO amount of stress can cause an infection.
Terry B

[Joez]

Nice to see your name up again TerryB.

I don't know why people want to believe this ever-present ick myth. I thought the spontaneous generationists were long gone.

Oh well.

[Terry B]

Hi Jim,
Yes there are different schools of thought about Ich always being present, but only one of these opinions is well informed. Cryptocaryon irritans is obligate an parasite, meaning it does not feed on things other than fish. Bacteria are almost always oportunistic and many are almost always present in our systmes including Vibrio. Crypt must have a host fish in order to complete its life-cycle or it will die out. The amount of time required before the parasite will die out can vary. Two weeks will often work, three weeks is better, for weeks is a pretty safe bet, six weeks to be extra cautious and there have even been reports of it taking up to 72 days in extreme cases. The length of the life cycle depends more than anything else upon the water temperature.
I believe that hyposalinity is the superior therapy. In my opinion, it has the highest success rate. Just be sure to find an accurate hydrometer or refractometer to test the salinity daily. Keep an eye on the pH and alkalinity of the water and add a booster as needed.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 09-13-2000).]

[jim]

I guess I will try the hyposalinity and see if the shrimp make it.

Any other ideas?

On the Ick always being present discussion, on my last tank I did not add any fish for 1 1/2 years and did not have any signs of ick in that period. However, after the death of a fish, the fish hierarchy changed and I had a small out break on certain abused fish.

This is one of the main reasons for my belief. I just don't know how else the ick would return otherwise.

Anyway, thanks for the advice and discussion.

Jim

[DJREEF]

You could try feeding the Tetra anti-parisite flake food, if your guys will take flake, in addition to your hypo treatments. I've had pretty good luck with this product, just be sure the can is fresh. As far as the ich theory goes I truly believe I completely erraticated the bug from my FO system with copper about 9 months ago. The outbreak was fairly severe, and compounded by the presence of velvet, so copper really was my only option. I ran the system at full strength for 10 weeks. Extreme, I know, but everything worked out, with no mortality. So needless to say I haven't seen as much as a speck in this time.

DJ

[youbetyourwrasse]

I have experienced this with my (now ex-) powder blue tang.

I made the mistake of falling for one of those tiny guys, knowing darn well that my 55 gallon would be too small. I figured he'd be okay until I got my 135 in one year or so. Little bugger grew from 3" to 5" in 3 months, and began getting in fights with the resident lunare wrasse. Then he got Crypto. I added a UV sterilizer, stepped up my husbandry, and watched the spots come and go for 6 weeks. I then tried garlic with his 2X daily Nori fix. Spots disappeared in a few days, it was like magic.

His colors returned and on went life. 3 months and another inch later the fighting escalated, with him now being King 'o the tank. But I guess being a leader has it's own stresses, because the Crypto returned, with spots also showing on my Picasso and Valentini puffer. I never worried about Trig and Puff; but I worried about that tang. I put off removing him; I was afraid of the stress it would cause and besides, he had licked this before.

Plans were in the works to set up a 135, when I put him in a hospital tank with Puff for copper treatment. The spots were coming but not going. He died in a day. Puff stayed in the HT for a week, and has been fine ever since.

I believe the fish must be free to develope his own resistance, and conditions must be optimal for most members of this species to do so. I agree with Staceon that nibbling all day is part of that optimal environment. So is lots of swimming room, a well-matured system, lots of LR, a varied diet, and suitable tankmates. I think sometimes we look too closely at individual "numbers" that we miss the "big picture".

JMHO :)

YBYW.

[john f]

TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.
The fact that many reefers have had Ich outbreaks with ZERO fish or invertebrate additions in many months (I have several times) would seem to indicate that ich is difficult (I believe impossible) to remove completely from a reef tank. My theory is that even healthy fish that show no outward signs of the parasite can harbor 1 or 2 trophonts which sort of reproduce slowly to create a subclinical infection. This is sort of like staph on your skin. Then when the fish becomes stressed the ich starts to gain the upper hand and a clinical infection is observed.
So quarantine may not help (it NEVER has for me) because the new fish may come in parasite free, but the older fish have enough trophonts on them to start an infection in the new fish if it is stressed.
So the buggers can be obligate parasites and still maintain a subclinical infestation for many months/years after any signs of disease are noted.
I have been on several dive trips where I could find fish with ich on them, and some without. Its always there IMHO, just waiting to attack!!!!

John

[jim]

Thanks John. Thats what i always thought.

What do you do to treat fish when you have these outbreaks?

Jim

[BrianD]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john f:
TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This board doesn't have "battles", it has discussions. That is what separates it from others, IMO. I don't know why it is that when Terry posts an opinion on any board people come out of the woodwork to argue with him. It seems that instead of offering anecdotal personal observations, some type of scientific rebuttal would be more useful.

You have two opinions contrary to accepted dogma:

1) ich is also present
2) quarantine isn't necessary/helpful

I would be interested to see some scientific/research papers that support these positions, as opposed to personal "theories".

Brian

[Larry M]

I'm not sure I see the importance of knowing whether ich is always present or not. Would you choose a different disease treatment based on that bit of knowledge? You can't treat in a reef tank anyway (at least not proven, IMO) so what's the difference? Does this mean you wouldn't quarantine? That is not the only reason for quaranting anyway.

So why does it matter?

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[BrianD]

Sorry if my previous post sounds grouchy.

It's been one of those weeks :) (or should I say years?)

Brian

[john f]

Brian,
You got one of my positions correct:
1. Ich is always present in a reef tank. Maybe not ALWAYS (strong word) but petty damn close

But I did not say quarantine isn't necessary or helpfull. I said it has never helped me prevent an ICH outbreak. It is a good practice for other things, just not ICH.
Also, I have no idea who Terry B is and did not "Come out of the woodwork" to argue with him. We had a discussion (your word) in another thread and it has carried over into this thread because both are about Crypto.

He advocates hyposalinity (Can't do it in a reef tank anyway) and I advocate elevated temps (can do in reef tank) as a way to stop an ICH outbreak.
He thinks proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks and I do not. These are our disagreements.
Since I have a regular job like most of us I don't really have the time or know how to conduct scientific experiments using controls in order to study this situation. If someone else on this board does I would be glad to assist financially in the undertaking.

John

[BrianD]

John, I understand what you are saying. We will just agree to disagree :)

[Terry B]

Hey John,
Call it a battle if you will, but you had better come well armed (well informed). First lets clarify something. I never said that low level infections are not possible. There is a small degree of resistance in some fish that have been previously exposed. If you have a precarious balance between the fish and the parasite anything that tips that balance can cause the infection to manifest and progress. It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay in tack for years. What I said is that it is not always present. It has been proven in clinical trails that Cryptocaryon irritans will die out from a lack of host fish. It can also be eliminated from a system and the fish by correctly administering an effective treatment. As I mentioned in a previous post much of the confusion lays in the fact that most people don’t understand all the ways that Crypt. can be imported.
Staph does not rely on a host fish to survive. It can be found most anywhere like on your cutting board at home, or in an operating room. The word obligate means the pathogen cannot survive by feeding on other things. This means the host must be present. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate pathogen unlike most bacteria.
There is not one single public aquarium to my knowledge that does not strictly practice quarantine, and for good reason. I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine. Ich is always present in nature, but our aquariums are a highly different matter.
I would like to know who you would acknowledge as an authority on this subject. You seem to have dismissed three experts that I have already sited. Would you say the two leading experts in the United States on Aquatic Medicine are not good references? How about Dr. Colorni? Dr. Colorni is considered the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. I do correspond with Dr. Colorni and he is a very nice person. I address many of your questions in an up and coming two-part article that will appear in the near future in FAMA.
I can supply you will scientific journals to look up or books to buy. Can you support any of your contentions in the same manner?
HTH,
Terry B

[Outerbank]

Jim, I would see if you could coax your shrimp into a trap or out with some food. I would recommend hyposalinity for treatment according to Terry. This could also potentially rid your system of ich is you do it for 6 weeks or so. Watch your pH and dKh and adjust as needed. I am a big advocate of the hyposalinity but lack the researched info to support it--that's ok for me anyways, so many research studies have a lot of arguable methods and database analysis. It has just worked great for me and the fish did not seem stressed at all. That's my 2 cents of advise and I am not here to argue/discuss about ich presence, appropriate research articles, etc. I will leave that to those that are so willing to study this for us for our benefit.

Scott

[Lobster]

Hi Jim. I'm also in Costa Mesa, right near South Coast Plaza.

But anyway, I have found that there are a couple of assumptions you can make that can help you battle ich. First of all, assume that it is always present. Semantics are irrelevant, lets just assume (or pretend depending on your stance) that it is present. Second, assume that the reason the ich has escalated is the existence of a stressor.

With this in mind, you combat ich by subduing the parasites while eliminating the stressor -- the latter of these being the key. Most would agree that eliminating the parasite from the fish without eliminating the stressor is futile, as your fish will likely be reinfested. Find what is stressing your fish, whether it is temperature fluctuations, a dietary deficiency, harassment by a tankmate... whatever. I must say that six months seems a little young to be housing delicate fish, but that's certainly arguable.

I would certainly stay away from medicinal treatment for your main tank, including Melefix (no offense GM). This stuff smells like soap. Anyway, what I would do is continue the garlic treatment with dried nori, and perhaps some soaked in Selcon now and then. Saturating food with garlic lets you concentrate treatment on the fish and not the tank. Also, while I certainly won't say "brocolli is useless" as a food, I will say that you should not rely on it as the only vegetable (or other) matter in your tang's diet. Variety will provide better nutrition.

Anyways, I treated some gobies and wrasse with garlic this way, and the cysts had bailed by the next morning. At the same time I searched for the cause of the stress. I thought it may be stray voltage, so I first added a grounding probe and did a minor water change for good measure. After a couple of days, I stopped the garlic treatment, but the ich began to reappear. Apparently voltage was not the problem, but I noted my temperature fluctuated quite a bit with the onset of summer (as much as 10F, ouch), so I took measures to stabilize it. After straightening that out, I stopped the garlic treatment a few days later, and the ich never showed up again.

As always, this is merely offered for consideration and not intended to serve as "the rule".

http://bigfatlobster.tripod.com/lobster.gif

[john f]

Hey Terry,
Whats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.
The fact that your are well read on this subject does not defacto make your case.

"I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine"

So what, how does that prove your point that proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks?

I have not had ICH for over a year in my 135 (this is the only tank I have had problems, out of several) I also have in quarantine 2 pyramid butterfly fish which have shown no outward signs of disease for 2 months.
Want to bet that when I add them to my 135 which has a large, nasty tomato clownfish, they will get ICH?

If Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.

"It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay intact for years" Do you have any proof of this? Sounds like speculation to me.

Terry,
Lets cut to the chase. Do you advocate hyposalinity for treatment IN THE REEF TANK?
If not it is pointless to advocate it at all for many reefers. Many of us will simply not tear apart a longstanding reef system in order to catch all the fish for treatment in another tank.

What we need is a reliable, in tank treatment. I believe this can be found.

I also think an expert in any disease is the guy who knows how to cure it, not simply describe it. So bring on all your references and pointy headed scholars. Not one of them has a reef safe treatment for ICH, and I am telling you from 10+ years keeping reefs that elevated temps have worked with greater than moderate (but not total) success for me.

Come up with a better method and I will try it. I always have an open mind, unlike some :)

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-15-2000).]

[jim]

Thanks for all the advice.

I am now feeding my fish a combination of formula 1 & 2, Angel formula, brine shrimp, Broccoli, Nori and spirulina flakes.

The house is air conditioned / heated so temp only changes @ 1 degree per day.

The stressor may be harassment from other fish, but it is not really directed toward either sick fish.

I do agree that I should have waited longer to put these two fish into this young tank.

I am in the process of lowering my salinity to 1.009 for 4-6 weeks. This should take a week.

I am trying to catch my 3 shrimp with an acrylic trap, but may have to sacrifice them if they can't be caught in the next week.

Also, since my tank is only 1/2 stocked, I may have other outbreaks. I know people on this board don't like copper, but it is much easier to administer than hypo, expecially in ongoing problems. I will try the hypo this time, but next time . . who knows.


Jim

[Larry M]

John--I think you are out of line with your approach to this discussion. I don't see anywhere that Terry claimed to be an expert. What I have seen him do is help many people over the years save their fish. Not everyone agrees with his approaches, that is fine. But I have seen countless posts from hobbyists thanking him for his advice which saved their fish.

Until you can produce something other than "this works for me" I don't think you have any room to talk.

If you wish to disagree, you are most welcome to. If you want to attack for no good purpose, that will make you not welcome here very fast.

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Phishmon]

Your Powder blue is most likely fighting a little with the naso and yellows
they tend to fight for territory
also Powders get HUGE
and tend to be ich magnets in any size system

the personifer is prolly being stressed out by the flame angel
since it is new to the sysem
they will arrive at a pecking order eventually

were the yellow tangs added before or after the powder blue???
pairs of yellow tangs are more aggressive than odd numbered schools


you can help break up the territories
by feeding Nori (seaweed for sushi rolls)
on different clips and attached to rocks with rubberbands
(we call them Nori bombs) sorry garf we trademarked that term ;)

this allows the angels and tangs to feed in seperate areas
they will get more food and it will be less stressful
broccoli isnt really doing much but passing through thier systems with litle nutritional value
I dont care what anyone says it is not helpful even for HLLE

using the garlic will help
boosting the immune sysem is key
but the problem here is stress (MOST LIKELY)
Iit sounds like stress from the system or other fish not a personal thing
all tangs and angels are exposed to chemicals after collection that doesnt help the personifer much

selcon is good to add to the foods for boosting the system

you dont mention your salinity at that temperature your running
just curious
low salinities in systems for long periods of time will stress the fish out also

as for hyposalinity

not a good idea in a tank with invertebrates
not just the cleaners are the verts
the rock may as well be considered as well
the critters in the sand bed will
populate the rocks


also I wouldthig about gettig more life i the sand bed
since ich is part of the meiofauna of the system
it contributes to that small but huge food chain for the little critters of our system

:)

HTH


[This message has been edited by Phishmon (edited 09-15-2000).]

[john f]

Fine Larry, I'll give in.
I don't think if you read my posts they were EVER attacking Terry. I was having a discussion about some advice I disagree with.
I have been visiting and posting to this site for quite some time and just because I disagree with Terry on this issue does not make me out of line. We probably agree on 99% of all issues so I do not see Terry as my enemy. I am simply trying to debate a point.
In his last post I thought he was rather rude and arrogant in his reply to me. He seems to think because he knows people or writes an article for FAMA (my neighbor has done that) that his position is correct.

Let me clarify my points one last time before I go, maybe to never post again (I'm sure that would break you up Larry)

1&gt; Ich is ALMOST always present in REEF tanks containing several fish, even if no recent addition have been made.

2&gt; Hyposalinity is NOT a valid treatment IN the REEF tank itself.

3&gt;Elevated temps have worked well FOR ME.
They are not a 100% cure all, but have helped ME.

If you or anyone else wants to show me articles which prove either 1 or 2 wrong, please do so.

As for #3 this is just my anecdotal observation so I do not expect it to be accepted as fact.

I do not doubt Terry gives lots of great advice and I do not question his knowledge or credentials. I simply disagree on these key issues and attemped to debate him on these. Nothing more.
Sorry to have offended you sensabilities.

See you at MACNA???

John

[billsreef]

Jim,
I think Phishmon hit nail on the head for the stressors. Watch their behavior closely, you might need to make some decisions on who to keep and who to take out for the sake of long term stability.

John,
I think you'll find that Terry advocates methods that come very close to 100% cure rates. The secret to an Ich free tank (yes I do believe this is possible) comes from rigorous quarantine from day one and fish #1 as any fish that is not Q'd can be a carrier. Also I think if you were to ask Terry for his list of references, rather than attack them, he would be glad to provide them. If you get those references from Biosystems and read them I think you will find that Terry does indeed research his info quite well.

As to reef safe remedies I haven't seen one yet that is truly reliable over a broad range of instances. The reason that is so difficult to find a reliable reef safe remedy is that so far anything that can reliably kill ich also has a negative impact on inverts, I don't see how this invalidates Dr. Colorni's information. As for 86F for treating ich, I have seen it infect fish at those temps without effecting a cure and to go much higher than that will also have a negative effect on many inverts.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Biosystems]

Not that I think it is any point to keep arguing or giving the appearance of ganging up on John-but I will get the articles to him this weekend and he will see that the published optimal temp for crypto is 30C; however, that does not make him wrong.


There is more to his temperature theory than anecdotal evidence that crypto is killed at high temps. It has been used in the past with success and has been published as such-for certain types of fish it is safe. I only argue that I do not think that fish should be subjected to these temps for the reasons stated in the other post.


Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.


Tim

[Doug]

Hi Jim,

All of the others have given great advice but I just wanted to share what I have done to treat my sick fish with some limited success and also offer my opinion on fish and ich.

Whenever I would see the first sign of ich on my fish I would start feeding them food soaked in Selcon. While I do not have any scientific background I have had some good success using this product. I have treated at least five fish using Selcon over the last couple of years and have had an 80% success rate. These were mild cases of ich (I say mild cases because the fish were still eating well) on the fish which I detected early on but it did seem to work very well for me.

Here are some of the reasons that I have used Selcon over other treatment methods.
With the way my tanks are setup I would have to remove all of the rock and corals to catch a sick fish so the q-tank option is not an option for me. Also, I have not had ich (knock on wood) since I learned of Terry's hyposalinity method so I have never had to use it and cannot comment. While I did try copper a long while back in a hospital tank I ended up killing all of the fish I was treating because of some bad advice on the copper level and a bad test kit. As far as the reef safe products I just do not feel safe using a that type of product. Not because they do not work but because it is something that I do not feel safe with myself.

It seems to go back to what both Phil and Bill said about stress and the immune system. Although fish and people are very different we see the problems that stress can cause on the human body and in other amimals.

So, just from my own observation it does seem that vitamin supplments such as Selcon can help a fish recover from illness but as long as the stress is still in the tank the fish will never fully recover no matter how much we try to boost the immune system. I also feel that some fish are better able to deal with stress than others. I have seen a tank with damsels chase and nip each other and live without illness for a long time and I have also seen a coral beauty chase a flame angel to illness and death in a short period of time. So not only do we need to deal with stress in general it seems, from my observation, that the type of fish is a factor in how much stress will affect a particular fish.

Again, this is just my opinion and I hope it just may give you a little more info and help in treating your sick fish.

As far as if ich is in our tanks at all times or not, I have no clue and cannot prove it either way so I can't comment. All I care about is providing my animals with the best enviorment possible in captivity and treating them in the best way I can if they do become ill. No matter what the cause of the illness is the main thing that I am concerned with is the recovery of the animal and hopefully minimizing the change of the illness occuring again.

Best wishes Jim and I hope everything works out not matter what you choose to do. :)

Doug

------------------
Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

Before you break the door down with an axe, try the doorknob first!

[Lobster]

Phishmon sounds right on the money. Separate feeding areas is a great idea.

I've never heard of anyone claiming Selcon directly fighting ich, but like Doug said, its good stuff. I suppose its entirely possible that the stressor could be an improper diet, so taking steps to rule this out (which it sounds like you are) is a really good thing.

As I said above, fight the ich AND the stressor and you're on the right track.

Treating the tank via hyposalinity or medication just seems like a bad idea to me, but this is merely opinion. Yes, shifting salinity may very well knock the cysts off, but I would worry that the salinity change could cause the inhabitants (sick or not) even further stress.

Regarding the in-tank ich treatment - dont hold your breath. Even if one does show up, I wouldnt pour the assumably vile substance in my reef until a 5-10 year track record proved it had absolutely NO effect on anything other than ich, which is highly unlikely.

Good luck, Jim!

http://bigfatlobster.tripod.com/lobster.gif

[O'Man]

I thought that the goal of elevated temp. was to increase respiration and therefore "speed-up" the ick's lifecycle. I remember reading that ick treatments tended to work best when the ick was in the free swimming and not the cyst stage. A faster life cycle ment less time in the cyst stage and more opportunity to attack it while it was free swimming. I always figured it was a gamble to see if you could knock-off more of it that the quantity that came back and attached to the fish.... maybe this is outdated info or just an old wives tale. Got me

Also, reducing stressors and using cleaner shrimp to keep the ick in check while the fish's immune system goes to work, has worked for me. Not 100%, but it has kept the losses to a minimum. Fish in an understocked, stress free tank seem to do best.

[lori344]

John and Terry,

Please, Please, Please step back, do some square breathing and ease up on each other. Personally I don't want to loose either of you. I'm learning a boat load from your discussion!!! Both of you are guilty of passive agressive and defensive language in this discussion. Perhaps John shouldn't have used the word "battle" in his first respose, I don't think he meant to be so harsh. (IMO, I don't know John) The information you two are sharing with us is important and VERY appreciated. Opinions, and experience matter. It is said wisdom comes from experience. And everyone's including yours, mine and Dr Colorni's matter. IMHO we all may learn something here from you two. Speaking for myself, I have already learned more about treating Cryptocaryon irritans, I have more options should i have to face it again. A debate shouldn't get into mud slinging (boy there is a lot of testosterone on this thread.) Please, gentlemen you are both invaluable. Don't muddy the water with competition.

Best Regards,
~lori


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Like fine wine, reefs take patients & time

[This message has been edited by lori344 (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Terry B]

John,
At first I thought your intent was a good old-fashioned debate. I can appreciate that, because I enjoy a good debate. Then you became antagonistic with comments like “Whats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.� For the benefit of other reading this thread I will respond. Some of the information that is contained in the two part article has not, to my knowledge ever been published in a hobbyist magazine. It describes what we know now about the life cycle and updates this information. I also go into some details about how the parasite can be imported that we did not understand previously. I expect with your attitude that you would have nothing good to say about it and you probably won’t learn a thing.
My point in saying that all public aquariums quarantine is to point out that they all believe it is beneficial and does greatly reduce the chances importing it into their displays. I guess you stand-alone on this one. Then you show your blatant disrespect for the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. You said “If Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.� Your idea of raising the temp to treat SW ich is a very old one. Did you think you were the first with the idea? It has been used with FW ich for a very long time. The problem is that it does not work for saltwater. I guess if someone says they cured ich by putting peanut butter in their tank that we should believe that is what happened despite any scientific evidence to the contrary. This sounds like a don’t confuse me with the facts attitude. Then you accuse me of speculating yet this is all your opinion is based upon.
Why don’t you ask anyone on this board if I have ever advocated using hyposalinity in a reef tank? I can say that I have strongly advocated disease treatments that actually work on a consistent basis, and an awful lot of people have thanked me for helping them save their fish. How about you? If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide.
I am not particularly an advocate of using garlic to treat Ich. The reason is not that garlic doesn’t work. It is because other methods are more consistently effective. I don’t see anything wrong with using it as a stop gap method to control an infection in a reef. You don’t believe it works at all, but there are many more people that believe it helps. To sum it up, you discount methods that do work in favor of one that doesn’t based on your personal experience. Do you even know for sure your fish actually had Crypt? There have been dozens of treatments over the years that claim to cure Ich. There is always someone that says something like “Coral Vital cured ich for me.� Sometimes people get lucky, sometimes people think white spots are always Ich when it’s not, and yes once in a while ich does go away on its own. Why don’t you put yourself to your own test and answer the same questions that you ask others? You have not in any way come up with a reef safe cure. People reading this thread would be wise to stick to methods that actually have shown to work on a consistent basis, especially those that have been proven scientifically. Don’t bet your fish’s lives on one person’s “it worked for me.�
Terry B

[billsreef]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Biosystems:
Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tim that would be a great idea :)

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[john f]

Terry,
Why don't you read #3 and my follow up to it above.
And it is your (pardon me) arrogant attitude which caused me to become slightly antagonistic. If you can't understand that and back down a little we will have to agree to disagree.
I never have claimed that elevating temps is some kind of new idea. I got the idea from Frank Hoff who got the idea from Spotte apparently.
It seems your major argument with me is the elevated temps. Fine, I have no proof it works, just observations. This seems the same to me as the garlic crowd yet you seem to favor or at least remain neutral to that for in reef treatment.
"If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide"
This is the kind of attitude that gets me (and anyone else you try it on) going.
I did not think we were trying to win a personal experience argument.

If someone posts to this board with fish IN THE REEF tank having ICH and does not/cannot catch the fish out, your advice can't help them past eliminating stressors, increasing water quality, etc. Same stuff we ALL know.
I'm not claiming I can help them either. I'll just help myself.
I appreciate the help you have given to many over the years.
So tell me this:

????How do you propose I eliminate the possibility of an ICH outbreak in my 135 reef with 8 resident fish, some of which have been in the tank for 9+ years???

I can't (have tried) catching them out, and I quarantine new additions for 1-2 months in a coral growout system before adding them to my 135. I mention this beacuse I have 2 butterflyfish ready to go in the tank, but I know when they do go in they will get ICH.

I hope to meet you at MACNA so maybe we can kiss and makeup. As I said above we probably agree 99% of the time, and it's always nice to meet and learn from others.


John

[Steve Richardson]

"but I know when they do go in they will get ICH"

really. Bummer. Never had it myself.

juuuust lucky, I guess. :)

John - just to satistfy my own curiosity about stocking levels, etc.. can you describe your fish (make/model ;) /size) please?

-S

[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 09-16-2000).]

[john f]

Yes I'd be glad to.
This tank is the only one out of several I have and currently run that seems to have an Ich problem, and I have been very frustrated over the years when I try and put new fish in.

Tank: 135 reef ready.

Circulation: Iwaki 100rlt with twin sea swirls.

Live sand bed (4") and about 200lbs LR (Figi and Marshall island, as well as some Florida from the old days.

Lights: two 250 watt MH 12K and one 400 watt 12K

corals: Dozens, from shrooms, leathers, and xenia, to Acropora, montipora, seriatopora, as well as 2 anenomes (1 bubble tip about 10 months and 1 H. crispa about 3 years)

Fish: 1 pair ocellaris clownfish (10+ years)
(raised about 4 groups of offspring)
1 yellow tang (5 years) 4 inches
1 sand goby (6 years) 3 inches
1 black blenny (1 year) 3 inches
1 pair Bangai cardinal 2 inches each (3+ years and 4 sets of offspring)
1 3" anthias unknown species(5 months)
1 Fire (or tomato) clownfish (2 years)

The large clownfish I believe is the cause of Ich on my new additions lately as he is a major bully. Unfortunately I can't seem to catch him. Have tried traps, hooks, nets, etc. He is VERY elusive and smart (for a fish)

I also think the yellow tang caused some of my past problems as I have tried to add other
tangs (kole, blue) and he laid a whooping on
'em.
I think when I add the pyramids the tang and the clownfish may take turns on them. This is why they might get Ich.
But since I have quarantined them and not had ANY additions (corals included) for the past 5 months they should be fine according to all you guys, right ;)

John

[Steve Richardson]

"they should be fine according to all you guys, right ;) "

well... no. No need to get defensive. Trust me - we are all on the same side here.

Sounds like you know what your problem is though. You are fortunate enough to have some aggressive fish. The multiple Clownfish will lead to agression in A.frenatus, no doubt. I had to remove my percula clowns away from 'Big Ben the Killer Tomato' for the same reason. (Actually, I should hall her 'Benita'.

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/strichardson/images/a_frenatus.jpg

The same can be said for your Yellow Tang... many have had success keeping a yellow and something else like a Purple or Sailfin together, it doesnt really surprise me you have had trouble there as well.

If you have a chronic problem with ICH, you may want to consider doing something about your combating occupants. Have you considered giving away your perculas or yellow tang? Perhaps things would improve next time you choose to add something.

Of course, like I said... this comming from a guy who has never dealt with it. But, I'm a big believer in the 'stress' thing.

thoughts,

Steve

[john f]

Steve,
The comment "never had it myself, juuuust lucky I guess" is what put me on the defensive. In fact this whole thread has me on the defensive. Sorry to jump ugly on you.
I feel as though because I disagree with Terry on a couple points, my overall Reef/fish keeping ability has been questioned. As you can see from my tank specs and stocking list I do have some idea about how to do this reef thing right.

You are correct and I already know that aggression has caused my Ich problems. Can't remove the ocellaris from this tank though. Had them for over 10 years. The tomato has got to go. I have a slurp gun on order from the local dive shop and I am hoping to catch him with it.
The tang has actually mellowed somewhat over the years and I think with the tomato gone I may have better luck than in the past.
It's just when you get an Ich outbreak people tend to say "Oh, you must have poor water conditions, or you must not quarantine your fish, or maybe (as Terry implied) you don't even know what Ich(crypto) is"
I resent that as I know very well all of these things and can still get Ich outbreaks in this tank.

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Steve Richardson]

No problem... and yes - I probably am 'juuuuuust lucky', but it works for me. :p

Slurp gun might do the trick. Perhaps start feeding more often by hand at the surface... get the rascal used to eating from your hand.

I've trained mine this way... so if she ever gets to be a real problem, it might be easy to net her. (The ol' 'bait and switch tactic :D muahahaha! )

Understand you though... I've had her for 2 years, so unless things got really bad - I couldnt just give it away.

good luck with it,

-S

[Purple Tang]

I had trouble interducing a Flame Angel to my Tank. I had a Coral Beauty in there which is about .5 inches better.
It chased the Flame Angel vilantly around the Tank, so I knew this couldn't continue.
He was even injuring himself from hitting rocks.
I spent 2 hours tring to caught the Coral Beauty, ended up removing my rock etc.
Put him in another tank for a week.
switch my rock all around.
The Flame Angel was doing pretty good.
Then I put the Coral back in the tank.
The Coral only shows minor signs of aggression know, he pretty much leave the Flame Angel alone Know.

[john f]

Thanks Lori,
You're right.
I knew there was a reason we guys need women around :)

[dragon0121]

I also would like to thank TerryB and JohnF for the above discussion. The only way for people to keep Ich out of their tanks is if they UNDERSTAND the creature and its life cycle.

I will try to summerize something that I have seen TerryB say for over the last year, and it seems to get missed by people reading at times. Cryptocaryon Irritans is an OBLIGATE PATHOGEN and scientific research has PROVEN that it will not survive without a host fish. (FACT, not an arguable opinion as far as science is concerned at this time) That means if you remove all of your fish from your tank for 6 months the TANK WILL NOT HAVE ICH. And this is were people need to quit saying a tank always has Ich, becasue it has already been proven it doesn't. The fish in the tank may have Ich but the tank doesn't (remove fish per above). If you can 100% remove Ich from ALL FISH added to your tank through a quarentine/hypo/medication approach starting with the first thru the last, then the FISH will not introduce Ich into your tank. And barring any other import path for the pathogen your TANK will not have Ich, neither will the FISH! :D

I believe TerryB is implying that in his future article he may expose alternative methods for Cryptocaryan Irritans to be introduced into your tank. Offhand I would think that introduction of LIVE SAND could be another :D .

JohnF has said he has a tank that after months and months of APPARENTLY Ich free fish, the occupants again show Ich. To me at least, it is apparent that the Cryptocaryon Irritans in JohnF's tank have a HOST at all times, the fish. IMO this is what TerryB has pointed out over and over to everybody he helps. If you want to fix the problem 100% gauranteed, you will have to remove the fish for longer than the life cycle of the pathogen, AND successfully remove 100% of the Ich from the fish before reintroducing. GOOD LUCK!!! :D

JohnF appears to want an absolute cure from TerryB, IN TANK. I think it's obvious there is no such thing at this time. But following the feed well, stress free environment scenario, will give the fish the best chance to keep the pathogen at a survivable and UNNOTICEABLE level (may still be there) .

The argument that because you are an expert on a pathogen, disease, etc. means you obviously should be able to have a cure for it, is nonsensical. We don't have cures for cancer, AIDS, diabetes, color blindness, the COMMON FRICKIN' COLD. That doesn't exclude millions of doctors worldwide from being experts in their fields, nor should we ignore their advice! Personally, I consider TerryB one of the foremost experts on this pathogen and fish stress, that posts on these boards and is available to ALL of us.

Keep the good info comin' this way guys and gals! :D :D :D There are a lot of us out here just soakin' it up!!!!!

[ejloomis]

I am also glad to see this discussion on the Crypt. parasite lifecycle. In answer to a question above, it does seem to me that there potential differences in tank management depending upon the life-cycle and survivability of the Ick parasite. I, for example, still use a UV sterilizer. But I know that UV is falling out of favor, and perhaps for good reason; the problem being, as I understand it, that UV may kill invertebrate nutrients in the water.

So when, if ever, can I turn off my UV if I still want to use it to kill possible Ick parasites after new additions to the tank? (I realize that it is not absolutely certain that UV does even this, but UV seems to me a relatively well-established safeguard. I for one, have not had parasite problems after adding UV, whereas I did have them before). If the life-cycle of the parasite is finished at 6 weeks, then I can turn off the UV 6 weeks after any new addition, and avoid other possibly harmful effects of the sterilizer. But if it can remain present but undetected indefinitely, then a constant use of UV might be required to prevent its spread.

Those who have reported Ick outbreaks well after 6 weeks from the last addition to the tank, is it certain that there was nothing else added that could plausibly have carried the parasite? Not even a bit of liverock? If so, then the low-level infection hypothesis seems rather probable.

[Bubafat]

I know that this is just shot in the dark, anedotle evidence but i've found it works well to prevent and get rid of ick. It's a very efficient and easy way to get rid and keep it away, you might just call it a miracle cure. Think of it this way, what is one this that we don't have in our tank that tangs and any other fish have in the wild (other then millions of gallons of water)?

A VERY diverse food source. "But that would be very expensive," you say. Well, yes it may be but is it worth the anguish, and the price of new fish every couple months? Basically, i go to 3 places to find food, Cub foods, my LFS, and my local co-op. Go to cub, and buy say a half pound of every single thing they have (salt water foods only, i've HEARD, not a fact, that fish can digest it better), go home, and cut it up into many, many very small pieces. Yes, it makes your kitchen REEK for a couple hours afterward. I then go to my LFS, and buy EVERY frozen food type they have (spend $50 bucks or so). Then i go to my local co-op, buy nori and many different greens (i like co-ops for that because i don't want to take a chance with pesticides or other bad things). I par boil the greens, then freezed them to break up the cellular walls so that my tang can digest it better.

So what do i have for food now:

Fresh Frozen shrimp
Frozen Bay and Ocean Scalops
Frozen Muscles
Frozen Clams
Frozen Blue Point Oysters
Frozen Lobster (yes i spoil them)
Frozen Macril
and a couple of other frozen fish
Nori
Seaweed Selects (red, green and purple)
Greens
Formula 1&2
Frozen Brine, blood worms, and other frozen foods.

I have my own little 1.5 Cu m. Fridge that i turned into a freezer dedicated to the foods.

Yes, you might call me extremely excessive, but would you like to live on only 3 or 4 different food types for your entire life, you'd die from malnutrition.

Well, i'm done ranting now

Matt

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Have fun and happy reefing. "The goal in life is to reach pure happieness." Aristotle

[JohnL]

Tagged for the archives

[Larry M]

Lori said it better than I could have, or possibly tried to. All I ask is people treat each other with some respect and at least attempt to keep the discussion clean. I would also like to see all parties stay to post another day. :)

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Terry B]

I have to agree that diet, good water quality and a stress free environment are all things we should strive for. However, no amount of stress can cause Ich if the parasite is not present in the system.

Ejloomis,
Ultraviolet sterilizers can be used to help control Ich if it is powerful enough and the water flow to the unit is correct. It would be very difficult for UV light to eliminate Ich from the system. Here is a snippet from an article that I wrote. “The majority of mature theronts excyst (emerge) from tomonts during darkness (Burgess and Matthews, 1994b). The same holds true for trophonts exiting the host. This may be interpreted as a part of the parasite’s strategy for survival. Most reef fish are less active at night and stay close to the substrate and coral making them easier targets. Even though only 5 to 20 percent of theronts successfully infect a host, in the confines of an aquarium this can mean a ten-fold increase in parasites on the fish in a six to eight day period.� As you can see the parasites don't have to go very far to get to the fish. This means that many of them will not be swimming through the water enough to be caught by the UV light.

Dragon0121,
Thank you for your intelligent post. You are right that an Ich free tank + clean fish = no Ich in the system. You are correct that live sand can be a source of infection. Removing the fish for four to six weeks from the system and cleaning the fish of infection before returning them is the only sure way of eliminating this pest. Of course this is much easier if you take steps to prevent introducing the parasite into your system from the beginning. Your comments about experts was excellent and makes perfect sense, thanks again.

JohnF,
My position is correct not just because I say so, but because I have the scientific evidence to back it up. I only mentioned my years of experience because you tried to validate your position by saying you have ten years of experience.
How do you eliminate Ich from your 135-gallon aquarium? You want absolutes but so far you reject the only things that actually work. Are you looking for real answers or just something that you approve of?
If you really want get rid of the pest and you are convinced is in your system there's only one absolute way to do this and you won't like it. I had Ich in a reef system before and I know what a pain it is to catch the fish and remove them. I have been there and done that. I had to take most of my live rock out and put it in large plastic barrels with saltwater so I could catch all the fish. I then had to stack the live rock back in the tank. Then I had to keep all the fish in a separate tank for four weeks to or more before returning them. None of this was fun! All the more reason to prevent such a scenario with quarantine and other preventive measures!
I can tell you what I would probably do if it were my tank. I would probably see how far feeding garlic to the fish would get me. If you had trouble using garlic maybe you didn't do it correctly. I think it's going to be difficult to completely eliminate Ich from the system by feeding the fish garlic, but the only alternative is to tear all the out of tank and catch the fish. To be as safe as possible you have to eliminate the parasite from the system, add only fish that have been treated and cleaned of infection, and then take every precaution to prevent reintroducing Ich back into the system. Quarantining all-new (fish)additions in hyposalinity is worth serious consideration. Reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and their surroundings environment is a proven way of reducing the effects of stressors. I have extensively studied many scientific journals and books on stress in fish. It is my opinion that hyposalinity causes little if any stress in the vast majority of bony reef fish. As a matter of fact, reducing the salinity helps to lessen the effects of stress. This is due in part to the fact that hydromineral disturbance is inherit to stress in fish. Reducing the salinity in turn makes it easier for fish to recover normal homeostasis quicker.
Terry B

[Snail]

TerryB: Out of all your scientific journals has any scientist researched the long term effects of copper or hyposalinity on fish?

From what I've been able to find they have only researched how to kill Cryptocaryon irritans but no one has done a long term study on either of these treatments to see what happens to the fish months-years down the road.


-Snail

[Larry M]

Thread closed.

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 09-18-2000).]