Auction participants please read [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community Archives

hmott

12/10/2004, 09:00 AM

I just wanted to say I think doing this without a vote and no discussion is absolutely outrageous. Is this a club, an extension of Jomars, or simply a â€œwhatever Ron saysâ€? group? I think the people are great and I've loved being a part of the club, if thatâ€™s what it is. But honestly itâ€™s starting to feel to me like itâ€™s not a club that itâ€™s yours Ron to do with what you please, with the grace of your employer, and who cares what others want/think.

Ron I don't mean this to sound like its pot shots at you, and I'm sure its going to feel that way, it is not about you personally. I understand everyone puts a lot of time into this, and you for sure the most of anyone. I do appreciate that and Iâ€™m very thankful to you for donating your time to the club. But if it is a club then that is what you are doing, donating your time to the club. For the last few months I've been spending time with another club thatâ€™s about the same distance from me and I'm seeing how they are more a club than CVRC. CVRC seems more like a dictatorship :) I just think maybe its time everyone get a say in how things are setup and run officially. Hell I think you would be a great president and I would be happy to vote for you. But it would allow decisions to be made by the group rather than one person.

I would like to be able to say â€œI would rather cut back on prizes than increase the fee 10%â€?. I understand others may not agree but the fact we discuss it and vote on it would be good for everyone. Itâ€™s good to have alternate ideas brought forward.

I also believe that some of the 10% (which is reasonable) should go to the CLUB. Iâ€™m not 100% sure where it goes, but thatâ€™s something else elected officials could do. Account for every penny. Where the money went and why should be available to the group if itâ€™s an open club. Most clubs use dues or other income like CVRC generates from auctions to allow them to do special things for the group. You have to admit itâ€™s a little unheard-of for a club to run things the way CVRC currently is financially. I think at the very least there should be a vote on things like this by the officers elected by the group members if not by the group as a whole.

LowCel

12/10/2004, 09:27 AM

hmott, I can definately see where you are coming from.

My opinion is a little different though, I guess because I participate in so many arts and crafts shows that charge percentage. What that percentage is for is to cover expenses, to pay for the location, and to pay for the advertising. Without a location and people to buy you can't really sell anything then you end up with basicly 0%.

I know that 20% seems high but when you figure that most likely the 10% barely covers the door prizes it doesn't seem to bad. Ron and Barry could always be selfish and not tell people about the club and let everyone continue to either pay retail for frags or buy from the internet. Basicly Barry loses money since people are buying so much from individuals, individuals that would most likely be buying from him.

IMO, Barry deserves to make a little money at these. He is gracious enough to give us a place to meet. In doing so he does stand to make some money, but he also takes a chance on losing money. For example, last time he let us all meet there, they had food and drinks for us (both from Barry and volunteers) and they had door prizes. He also had some people take their own door prizes without actually winning them. In other words there were some items stolen.

Also, Ron doesn't make any money at these meetings unless he sells some of his personal frags. I believe that just about everyone that brought frags in last time made more than Ron did, which is pretty bad since he did the majority of the work.

Also, one of the conditions of this club initially was that it would not be a "typical" club. That is both good and bad. It is good because we will always have a set place to meet. It is bad because their will always be a part of it that is financial.

The location is pretty important. When the club was smaller I would have been fine to sort of take it to a different member's house every month. However now that it has grown that is not really possible anymore. At first I would have loved to have held a meeting. But after the last meeting and Barry having some item's stolen I don't think I can say the same now. Unfortunately. :(

Anyway, I'm sorry for the lengthy reply. I just thought I should point out a little more of the reasoning. Like I said, I can see your point. Plus, I have never been to another club meeting so I have nothing to compare to.

OK.....now lets get some more opinion's on this. :)

Shikaroka

12/10/2004, 10:22 AM

I can see both sides, but I also think that 20% is a bit execisve. I do appreciate everything from Barry and Ron, but I don't think this should be about making a profit. I think the club just needs to support itself, so whatever percentage that requires could be justified.

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 10:52 AM

Well, guys, from when we were forming this club in time immemorial, we decided that (the founding members of the club) that if we were to hold the meeting at Jo-Mar's, we would pay a percentage of the auction items to take care of things like Barry's lost sales, due to members buying from members not to mention the crowd of folks that doesn't allow for his usual business. Please keep in mind that there is NO dues, initiation fees, or any other monies that pass hands to fund the club, all monies raised are due to the auction, which realistically, we all know is not enough to cover the costs of this ever-increasing crowd of reef lovers we call the CVRC. Now, also keep in mind that the frags sold to date would NEVER have been sold otherwise, allowing for income to put back into the hobby. If we did trade only like most clubs, the folks with nothing to trade would be out with no way to get their tanks going at the bargain deals we have been seeing at the CVRC auction. I, for one, feel lucky that we have such a venue to auction and meet, and if I have to pay 20% to insure the longevity and the consistency of the meetings.... 20% of nothing is nothing.... No problem here.... As a founding member of the CVRC, I agree with the hike in percentage, and dually thank my lucky stars that we have Barry and Ron to set this thing up and go above and beyond to help the hobby (way of life?) in this area. Kudos to you guys! Cheers!

LowCel

12/10/2004, 11:10 AM

Chris, if you remember the original agreement there was going to be no selling at all. The percentage thing came about at the first meeting since some people did not bring any frags so they were left out.

Shikaroka

12/10/2004, 11:18 AM

I am very thankful for this club too, and I hope noone thinks otherwise.

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 11:20 AM

I thought we had talked about that before then, something about a percentage going to Barry for him letting us use the shop to meet at.

LowCel

12/10/2004, 11:27 AM

Nope, it actually happened at the first meeting. I remember Ron telling me about it the next day.

Basicly, none of us wanted it to become a place that people just came to buy and sell corals. We (basicly me, you, matt, ron and barry) wanted it to be more about sharing information. Unfortunately the information has been put on the back burner, which will be changed at this meeting. It has sort of become a coral sale more than a club meeting. :( I believe that is all going to change though. :)

coralreefer

12/10/2004, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by odoprelude
I thought we had talked about that before then, something about a percentage going to Barry for him letting us use the shop to meet at.

Chris, if you remember the original agreement there was going to be no selling at all. The percentage thing came about at the first meeting since some people did not bring any frags so they were left out.

Actually I think you came up with the percentage and the minimum bid at that meeting. If you didn't we'll blame you anyway :D

Anyway the auction didn't start as a way for members to make money selling frags but to help beginners stock their tank and the percent to the store was something the MEMBERS insisted on as a thank you to Barry.

LowCel

12/10/2004, 11:39 AM

Amy, who do you think came up with it?

Remember, I couldn't make the first meeting. I had every intention of going but then Ron got sick so it had to be postponed. I had a festival the weekend that it was rescheduled for. :(

firefish2020

12/10/2004, 11:43 AM

It is our hope that this increase will provide us a better chance to promote the event and have extras at the events in the near future. Everyone here who is complaining about the auction fee should remember this. We had no auction planned for the event until the 2nd meeting only a swap. If you like we can go back to this instead. Also if you like we can drop the 20 percent and just charge a flat fee. Sorry to sound so blunt but this is not open to discussion or voting, I guess it is a sort of dictator ship LOL Oh well. I posted the thread for Barry he is the one running the show not me. You got problems call him 755-2437

Now for my response:

Actually Hmott the CVRC is an extension of Jo-marâ€™s in a way. We want to provide an example in the area that a LFS can be knowledgeable enough to host a meeting and responsible enough to promote coral propagation which MOST LFS will not do because they figure if you learn to frag their coral sales will fall. Please note we do not make any money from the auction fee I donâ€™t care if you believe it or not but as an example last meeting the cost of everything was well over $300.00 Do you think we got $300 from the auction fee? How many prizes were given away how much setup and decorations were there? I can run through a list and can tell you it was well beyond the $300 worth.

Hmott your opening paragraph is very offensive and is a â€œpotshotâ€? do not judge me unless you know me and I can assure you that you do not know me well enough to make a claim that this is a â€œwhat ever I want clubâ€?. I was dragged into starting this â€œclubâ€? in the first place. Let me tell you â€œWhat Ron wantsâ€?. I want a meeting in which individuals come to learn and trade amongst themselves not to simply show up and get paid for frags, I want a place where new hobbyists can come and learn from other more experienced hobbyist the best ways to do things and not make costly mistakes. I want to make everyone aware of what a great hobby reef keeping is and the dangers it faces and I want them the learn that they can make a difference by learning to propagate and share their corals with others. The point is this will not affect anyone except those bringing in Large amounts of frags the shop will not be participating in the auction either as Im sure someone would find that unfair or whatever. Personally I donâ€™t think itâ€™s that big of a deal. Your advertising is done for you for free, your space to sell is provided at no cost but for some reason $20 out of every $100 you would make is going to be too much for that kind of service? :)

firefish2020

12/10/2004, 11:48 AM

Actually I think it was Chris who suggested the fee I remember it was all on the fly because no one wanted to trade and there were people complaining that they jsut came to "buy stuff" and didnt know about the swap rules.

LowCel

12/10/2004, 12:28 PM

I just finished some searching for info on the first meeting and how it all got started.

Here is a link (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=315642&highlight=anyone+west+virginia) to the original post.

Here are the details of the first meeting.
Originally posted by firefish2020
Posted for Jo Marrâ€™s: 3/29/04

You asked for it now you get it!
The first meeting of the â€œJo Marrâ€™s Reef Club will take place on Saturday April 10th . This will be a preliminary meeting, a dry run to set up the club and to go over the rules. Please feel free to bring a â€œfewâ€? frags in and we will test out the swap procedure. We need a ordered way in which to trade your goods. We are thinking of it this way so far. A member who wishes to participate in the trade (the trader) puts his or her frag on the table. Each person wanting the proposed frag then in turn places his or her frag on the table. If the â€œtraderâ€? sees a frag he or she is willing to accept for trade then they remove the items and shake to agree to the trade. There is to be no frag(s) sold at the swap only trading will be permitted. We are also toying with the idea for a â€œClub Memberâ€? card which will get you free or half off priced merchandise. There may also be a door prize(s). I will post more details in the following days so check back for updates.

coralreefer

12/10/2004, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by LowCel

Remember, I couldn't make the first meeting. I had every intention of going but then Ron got sick so it had to be postponed. I had a festival the weekend that it was rescheduled for. :(

Hey I'm a female I remember everything :cool: Also remember it took us so long to finally meet I wasn't sure you were real :D
I meant Chris but we cross posted so it looked weird

Actually I think it was Chris who suggested the fee I remember it was all on the fly because no one wanted to trade and there were people complaining that they jsut came to "buy stuff" and didnt know about the swap rules.

Ron you've got a good memory for a man :lol: cause that's exactly what happened

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 01:00 PM

hey, blame it on the capitalist!! hehe.. seriously though, I, for one, wanted to make sure that Barry was compensated for us taking up his shop for the period of time, but really, think about it... who's tank has not benefited from the auction? I mean, where else in the WORLD can you buy an ORA tort frag for $10? But, then again, those who do not wish to pay the 20% fee, don't have to auction items, of course this by no means means that those folks shouldn't have to forgo the meeting for the info..

hmott

12/10/2004, 01:05 PM

I can tell you this, I want to be a member of a club, not an extention of a store. I believe a number of other stores would be happy to hold the CVRC for free. I believe a club should elect its ruling body not be appointed one. The 20% doesn't just affect people that sell 100 worth of corals. The money thats made from selling corals for most people is used to buy corals at the same auction. I admit I left with more than I spent but my wife knows that money is earmarked for the next auction I can attend. Also most other clubs do selling at meetings and often for prices below what we see at the cvrc auctions. Anyway I'm done, if cvrc ever becomes a club I'll be happy to come back.

Again this wasn't directed to you. I think YOU have done a great job, honestly I do. I guess I just don't like being involved in things when I have no say at all in them. Either through voting or electing.

I imagine my one voice won't be missed but I'll miss the meetings and talking with you guys.

firefish2020

12/10/2004, 01:09 PM

LOL Amy thanks - the point is I think this is a great club and a great place for anyone who wants to learn, lets not make this about selling and if you do make a few bucks to support your habit uh I mean hobby thatâ€™s fine but it's not about getting lots of $$$ thatâ€™s what ebay is for :)

For the founding members: Personally I think you are all great individuals and I have learned a lot from all of you in the past year even with all the bickering Im glad we started the CVRC you know I would not agree on a hike unless it was needed and I thank you for your support and trust in this matter.
That said I hope you all enjoy the meeting and bring as many frags as you want to share. And if anyone out there has say a frag from a green monti cap for trade let me know what you may want. I don't have a lot of fragable sps right now but in a few more meetings I might have some ready.
Thanks again,
Ron

H.crispa

12/10/2004, 03:40 PM

Jo Mars is first and foremost, a place of business! Businesses exist to make a profit. If Barry wants to ALLOW us to use his PLACE OF BUSINESS as a meeting place for our CLUB, then he does so out of the kindness of his heart and he certainly should not be PUNISHED by LOSING MONEY when he does so!!! Our little club has no dues, no treasurer, no president etc. Therefore without the pet store we have nowhere to meet! I suppose we could rent a meeting room at Embassy Suites, or the American Legion, but we have NO MONEY with which to do this. Are we all willing to chip in with real dollars to rent an alternative meeting place? I doubt it. If Barry were not such a nice guy, he'd charge us rent for these little events. Or how about this--- an admission fee to cover the cost of the drinks, snacks, goodie bags, electricity, etc. Wait! Those refreshments were "free" right??? Wrong! Someone paid for them and my hunch is Mr. Jordan did. All those prizes??? They didn't fall out of the sky either. All those auction items-- I know many of you walked out of the last meeting with money in your pocket. Are you the only one allowed to profit from this little event? If you ask me, 25% is probably about right. Then maybe Barry can take a little money home for his time and trouble as well.

I probably just pizsed off a bunch of people with my little rant here but someone had to say it.

Shikaroka

12/10/2004, 04:10 PM

You go Mr. H. I know both have us have benefited from our relationship with Barry and Jo-Marrs. I just play the Devil's Advocate sometimes. I agree with everybody!

LowCel

12/10/2004, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by H.crispa
Jo Mars is first and foremost, a place of business! Businesses exist to make a profit. If Barry wants to ALLOW us to use his PLACE OF BUSINESS as a meeting place for our CLUB, then he does so out of the kindness of his heart and he certainly should not be PUNISHED by LOSING MONEY when he does so!!! Our little club has no dues, no treasurer, no president etc. Therefore without the pet store we have nowhere to meet! I suppose we could rent a meeting room at Embassy Suites, or the American Legion, but we have NO MONEY with which to do this. Are we all willing to chip in with real dollars to rent an alternative meeting place? I doubt it. If Barry were not such a nice guy, he'd charge us rent for these little events. Or how about this--- an admission fee to cover the cost of the drinks, snacks, goodie bags, electricity, etc. Wait! Those refreshments were "free" right??? Wrong! Someone paid for them and my hunch is Mr. Jordan did. All those prizes??? They didn't fall out of the sky either. All those auction items-- I know many of you walked out of the last meeting with money in your pocket. Are you the only one allowed to profit from this little event? If you ask me, 25% is probably about right. Then maybe Barry can take a little money home for his time and trouble as well.

I probably just pizsed off a bunch of people with my little rant here but someone had to say it.

Sounds good to me! But let's try 20% first and see how that goes. ;) BTW, if someone wants to open their home up to 80 or 90 strangers we could go that route too. Just remember you will also have to provide some type of holding tanks. Not to be a jerk, but I can't say that I want that many people that I barely know in my home.

1package

12/10/2004, 05:41 PM

I do not want to choose sides but regardless of what you think HMott has good points and is correct in many of his comments.

As for the 20%, I am one of the people that it is going to affect, the money is not a big deal or the issue.

This is a club, and it is made up of members. Who started it really does not matter now no more than it will 5 years from now if those people are still even in the area or alive.

Starting from near the top......Ron puts in a lot of time - thanks Ron. Nevertheless, there should have been a thread posted and some input as to the 20%. It did not happen, it should have.

Barry provides the facility and prizes. Everyone should be thankful for both, I know I am. Although if given an option I would have voted, no refreshements, less prizes, - 10% on auction.

75% of the meeting was about the auction. It will likely always be that way. That is where the attention was. 25 people were not going to stand around for 2 hrs. and talk about water flow. 7-8 would have, the 7-8 that post on here regularly.

I did not mind the 20% nearly as much as I did the postings that followed. I read the 20% and thought, man who determined that?

I read some of the posting and thought come on.

Anyone who thinks this is not advantageous to the business that host those meetings there is a fool. Any talk of it being any other way is insulting to any reasonably intelligent person and no posted thread will EVER convince me otherwise.

There were probably close to $1200 in sales (auction) last time. I thought I heard 90+ items. $120 would have certainly paid for the utilities. And I would bet $100 of my own money that if Ron or anyone else called Inland Reef or such place and said, "we would like to have a meeting at your place", "we are having an auction and will give you 10%". The answer would have been a big fat - yes. So there are other options, so do not make it sound so dismal - it is not. As HMott pointed out a lot of the money from the auctions will be reinvested. I personally got $160 from the auction. I bought a 55g sump from Jomars although for the same price I could have gottin at Petsmart with a 40w light strip and plastic canopy. I then bought a 65w PC, from the same place. I did this because that is where I got the cash from. At 20% will I feel the need for that same loyalty?

Not to mention, I heard that last Friday night (after closing) they received the biggest coral shipment in 2 years and it was all gone by Sunday. Would that have happened 6,8, 10 months ago? - no. What has changed? CVRC, increased interest. Not to mention, how many people who come in buy something during the meeting or find out about the shop through the club? Not to mention, how many frags is the store going to sell in the next meeting for 100%?

I won a prize, I could have bought it with my 10% from the auctions. If given the choice $16 or the prize, I would have taken the $16. So, at least one prize was paid for anyway.

I have to agree with HMott for the most part but do want to mention that I do very much appreciate Jomars hosting the event.

Athough, I do think any money issue could have been resolved another way - no refreshments, less prizes, 50/50 drawing $1 tickets on a prize.

It's not about the money it is about the way it happened. It should not have been done that way.

Showing appreciation or thanks to Ron, Barry and Jomars is great and necessary. They put time and effort into this. As any good business would looking for an ROI.

Some of the comments that followed the thanks, implying hardship or loss of money were so ridiculous they made my stomach sick.

Hopefully future decisions that affect everyone will not be decided this way. If they are - I'm out and I would like to stay.

MattG

12/10/2004, 06:58 PM

lets see here...

im very surprised that people are complaining about a lousy 20% fee for corals SOLD at barrys shop. There is no fee to attend, no fee to trade, no fee for refreshements, no fee for ect....... I feel that a selling fee is more then appropriate and am a little disgusted that people would make a big deal over this nominal fee. I think some of you who didnt attend the first meetings have no clue why the CVRC was started. It was started for all the reasons ron mentioned NOT for financial gain for anyone. Does barry get extra bussiness as a result of the CVRC? Probably but who cares? He is being more then generous with us and is more then deserving of any advantages he gains.

With all that said i can foresee future threads with these types of issues. im not really sure how we can fix that without making things even more complicated....

LowCel

12/10/2004, 07:39 PM

Matt, I guess that Ron and Barry could always take it back to the way it was. No sales done on JoMar's property, trading only. That would solve the whole thing.

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 08:22 PM

NO FLIPPIN' WAY!!! There is no reason to punish all of us because SOME of us don't agree. Hey, don't agree, don't auction your frags! It's that simple... We would enjoy your company at the meetings, but unless you have a better place to go... which I cannot think of one... I sure as heck would not want to hold a meeting of this caliber at that joke of an stereotypical LFS as Inland Reef... those people don't care, don't know and don't care to know!!!!! Again, basically stated.. don't agree with the fee, don't auction frags... it'll make the auction part shorter anyways and that'll kill two birds w/ one stone...

Sorry if I p/o'ed anyone, but I'm sorry, don't agree, don't sell... simple...

coralreefer

12/10/2004, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by odoprelude
NO FLIPPIN' WAY!!! There is no reason to punish all of us because SOME of us don't agree. Hey, don't agree, don't auction your frags! It's that simple... We would enjoy your company at the meetings, but unless you have a better place to go... which I cannot think of one... I sure as heck would not want to hold a meeting of this caliber at that joke of an stereotypical LFS as Inland Reef... those people don't care, don't know and don't care to know!!!!! Again, basically stated.. don't agree with the fee, don't auction frags... it'll make the auction part shorter anyways and that'll kill two birds w/ one stone...

Sorry if I p/o'ed anyone, but I'm sorry, don't agree, don't sell... simple...

Why is everybody getting their panties in a wad about this anyway?
Don't agree, don't sell...simple
how could you p/o anybody stating the obvious Chris

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 08:47 PM

also, about the coral shipment... that was always my problem at Jo-Mars, his shipments always sold out before the weekend was up. Barry has never had any problem with business prior. It was always a fact that if you did not get there on shipment night, your were s.o.l. His suppliers have even said it doesn't matter how much he gets in, he sells out in a matter of days, usually by Mondays. They can't figure out how he does it, he sells more in 3-4 days than most lfs' can do in three weeks. This is coming from one of his distributors... and my past experience... Point is I feel that Barry and probably Ron, could take it or leave it as they are the premier lfs around and we all know that or we wouldn't be there and travel so far to get there...

odoprelude

12/10/2004, 08:50 PM

Amy, it's my abrasive personality....heh...:rolleyes:

firefish2020

12/10/2004, 10:07 PM

Ok, I just got home from work and sat down to relax for a few minutes. The first thing I did was check out this thread. All I can say is Holy crap! I can't believe all of this is over a measly 10%. I believe that this is showing us who is coming to the meetings for information and camaraderie and who is coming solely to buy and sell frags.

When this club was first thought up it was intended to help members gain knowledge about the hobby. Keep in mind that if it were not for these original members there would be no club. Therefore I believe that we should be grateful to them. There was a lot of thought put into this club by a few people. Thanks to this planning a lot of people have benefited. This club was first thought up by Matt and Bruce while overlooking Matt's fish tank. They were talking about how great it would be if local reefers could get together and trade and share experiences. It was after that discussion that Bruce made the post linked to above trying to find out if it was feasible. After that Chris, Amy and other's joined in. This is what really got the ball rolling. Once they found out that there was enough interest they then came to me, I then went to Barry. If this club is still around five years from now I think that we should all still be thankful to everyone that was involved in creating it. I do not think it is right to say that it does not matter what they think.

Now I agree that right now 75% of the focus is on the auction. Actually, right now I believe that 100% of the focus is on the auction. That will come to an end. The auction will not be the priority anymore. Knowledge is the priority. If only 7 or 8 people out of everyone that shows up are interested in learning about the hobby then the club is a failure. I would hope that the majority of the people that come to the meetings are here to learn and have a good time.

As for the order that came in last Friday, very little of it if any was sold to CVRC members. I really don't think any were, except one person & theirs was in trade :) JoMar's has quite a few customers due to the way that Barry conducts business. JoMar's has always sold everything very quickly. This is why people have always made it a point to be at the store on the days that shipments arrive. The store has been open for years. Long before the club, and if the club should come to an end JoMar's will still be around. Barry does not want to have to shut the doors and put an end to CVRC but if it comes down to it, that is what will happen.

If CVRC does come to an end please keep in mind the name was created by Bruce and myself. I made the logo and I do not give permission for the name of the club or the logo to be used without my permission or knowledge. Feel free to begin a club and host it at any location of your choice, but it will not be the CVRC.

Yes maybe another LFS would sponsor a club meeting for 10%. That would be profit for them. Barry is not getting that. Where does advertising come in? Do you really think that they will do that for you? Maybe. I have not/will not ask, like I said earlier if you want to form your own club, great...the more the better. The point of having refreshments and door prizes is to attract people to the meeting and have FUN. Without people there will be no one to trade or sell corals to.

As for the store making $120 in commission during the last meeting do you actually think that is a lot? If you worked seven days a week like Barry does would you work late on a Sunday for $120? None of us were paid for anything having to do with the club. None of us ever will.

wvdaisy

12/10/2004, 11:21 PM

If you don't want to pay a 20% fee or don't like the way the club is run then don't sell your corals or don't show up at all, problem fixed. I, for one, am happy to pay the 20%, to give Barry any of my business and to volunteer/donate to the club any way I can. Barry has always been an honest person. There is no other lfs I would go to for this type of meeting or coral purchase. I have been purchasing livestock of one kind or another from Barry for almost 20 years, have been going into JoMars for about 30 years and it has ALWAYS been a very busy place. I was disappointed when the auction took up all the meeting last time and we didn't get to hear about water flow. I want to learn and have learned a lot from Ron and Barry. I also like buying captive propagated corals at great prices. Remember the part about saving the wild reefs?
I was parched at the last meeting so was really grateful for the refreshments. Apparently, I wasn't the only one since the over 10 dozen cookies I made for the last meeting were gone along with most of the other cookies and all the drinks. I also really enjoy the door prizes and am happy to help fund it with a 20% seller fee. Sometimes I win something small sometimes something big but it's always FUN!

It would be wonderful if everyone from the last meeting was able to make it again this time plus whatever newbies have found CVRC. Hope to see you all there. Let's have fun!

1package

12/11/2004, 01:57 AM

I only saw two negative comments and one came from me the other from HMott so I have to assume that I am one of those perceived as complaining. Well I am, as I said not about the 20%, about the way it was handled. I was handled wrong. I think it is pretty sad that any of you would think that this make a decision with no input is correct. I also think it is pretty sad that you have that if you don't like it do not come or auction your frags. Strange everyone seems to encourage people to take part but the minute someone does not agree, it is "oh stay home".

1package

12/11/2004, 01:57 AM

1package

12/11/2004, 01:57 AM

odoprelude

12/11/2004, 03:09 AM

Nope, never said stay home, only said don't auction off your frags... You can even eat the cookies and drink the soda provided and take home door prizes and my frag sales will take care of those costs... and I will gladly do so! I'm not trying to be an @$$, but again, this club is currently being run out of a business. A business that has done eveything possible to educate all about the hobby with little concern of gain. I mean after everything that Barry and Ron did for the club, people still STOLE from them at the last meeting... I still think this is a small price to pay for us to have a place to meet and learn and share ideas, with no thought or concern as to rent, storage, dues, membership fees, admittance fees, etc. The only people paying for it are the ones who are making money on it, and personally, as a frag supplier, I have no problem with it. Barry deserves it, Ron deserves it. The club deserves it. By no means should it be implied that anyone stay home...

1package

12/11/2004, 08:22 AM

It is tough to direct comments to such a long thread unless you insert quotes, probably the best method.

Anyway someone did say, if you do not like the 20% or club rules you can not auction frags or stay home (nearly a quote) and I got that (perhaps implied) from others as well, tough thing about email.

I attempted to respond to 20 striings at one time and broke the first rule of Risk, battles on multiple fronts.

The point that I wanted to make and hear response to was...... these type decisions that affect everyone or several in the group should be discussed so that options could be options can be considered.

This opened up different income options, meeting locations, founding members, mission statements and several other items.
It is not possible to keep up with each in a single thread.

It is not a matter of whether or not the store should make money on this, they should (and I think are) - had to throw that in. I think we all agree (with the should part). I think we all hold Barry in high regard, I too had a tank crash once he took in the ick covered fish and doctored them back to health while I sat home with my corals. In turn I go there for nearly everything I need in the hobby. As far as acknowledging thanks and gratitude for our host and Barry/Ron's time, I mentioned that also.....it should be a given.

As I said the first time, I could care less about the 20%............that is not the point. The point is there are/were alternatives/options and these type decsions should be open for discussion prior to a decision being made, even if only by a group made up of primarily 4-5 people who got it started the entire thing.

Furthermore, I think the 4-5 people who started the entire thing (I pick them because they have nearly all been in this thread) should admit this was handled wrong (change) and give HMott (whoever he is) a PM and say "hey, we are all new to this, email is sometimes tough to interpret, changes such as this should be discussed, we are looking into forming some type of council or representative(s) to head off future issues, come on back".

This would show true leadership, that's what I think.

You guys decide............sorry for getting things going in 6 different directions and the triple reply above. Not sorry about any of the comments, I believe them to be true.

I am afraid I did it again with multiple points of view.........the main thing if you respond to this please include.........thoughts on these things should be discuss, options evaluated, etc....

Do not worry about me not showing up, I would be one of the 6-8 talking about water flow, not to mention if not wanted, that is even more reason to come.

MattG

12/11/2004, 08:57 AM

at this point we donâ€™t have/havenâ€™t had any type of body that discusses decisions involving the club so I feel Jomars had every right to increase the prices without asking and I back them 100%.

With that said I for one wouldnâ€™t be against trying to get a small group of people who speak for the general consensus of the club to try and prevent future issues. These people could collaborate with Barry/Ron to help come up with ideas for future meetings and help decide in what directions we are taking the club as a whole. This might help resolve future conflicts and insure the best interests of the club are being upheld.....it could also open up a whole other can of worms.

I want to encourage anyone who doesnâ€™t agree with the price increment to still participate in our club. No one is going to hold anything against you for saying whatâ€™s on your mind. If you donâ€™t like the price increases just donâ€™t participate in that part of the meeting.

I do want to say that although I donâ€™t agree with those that spoke out against the increase I respect the fact that they voiced their opinions.

pappygonefishin2002

12/11/2004, 09:13 AM

Well,I for one agree a little with both sides! I remember when this club 1st started I think I had 7 or 8 frags for trade and had to bring 3 or 4 back home with me. At that point we decided to auction off remaining corals not traded and give Barry 10% of sales if he agreed , which he did. The 1st meetings were for frag swap and education it has since became commercialized not by choice but by demand. Like someone stated earlier where else can you go and get 30 to 40 dollar frags for 10 bucks and no S@H fees. For that matter a tank full of frags... Nowhere! I think we have become bigger than anyone expected and the cost of having these meetings has increased tremendously, thus the 20%! But like others I think there should be a $5 a head charge for participation 10% to the club and the rest to Barry along with 10% of frag sales. This would generate a little money for the club and compensate Barry after all you get .....A chance to win prizes....Helpful info and advise on reefkeeping.....Refreshments.... Bargain priced corals.... A place to sell or swap frags....Contacts for reef related equipment ....Why shouldnt there be a charge for participation? You just cant keep enlarging without some kind of money to support it, plain and simple! Looking back and seeing how long it took to get some kind of reef related club started in this valley, and then we end up here is truly (SADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD)

firefish2020

12/11/2004, 10:23 AM

You want a ruling bodyâ€™s opinion I think the majority (founding members) have voted. Do you not think that if this 20 percent had been 25-30-or 40 percent that I wouldnâ€™t have come to you all (founding members) and asked for your opinions on it? I figured we were all adult enough not to whine about 20 percent. What is 20 percent when you consider the benefits we all have received from this club?

1package:
"not to mention if not wanted, that is even more reason to come."

Why would you even make a comment like that? First of all we want you there, I personally am the one who invited you but if you are coming out of spite that really says a lot. You need to seriously lighten up on this matter. You are welcome there just as everyone is. You know why we donâ€™t have elected officials? So we wouldn't have to put up with bureaucratical nonsense and petty bickering like this that could in turn pull the club apart. Remember this, any "elected" official would still have to answer to myself and I in turn answer to Barry so what would be the point? An ego-trip to say Iâ€™m in charge? Hey being in charge is not all that. If it were not for the fact that I know new hobbyists are benefiting from the club, at least they were until last meeting, I would put an end to it all. By the way what happened at the last meeting will not happen again EVER.

However worry not we will not allow one or two people to ruin something good & beneficial to the community. Like it or not the CVRC is what it is where it is and as long as it's founders have agreed with the terms set forth I see no real problem here. If Hmott wants to come he is more than welcome. I said it before the CVRC is not a typical club. New members have about as much say in it's running as "Sams Club" members have nevertheless we do listen to your needs, remember the threads from after the last meeting? All the great ideas? Are we not implementing those changes this time around? Has there been a time where I did not listen to your ideas or comments and pass them on?

Rest assured if there is a real decision to be made I will seek the founders opinions but remember also I do not have the final say here. It did not matter if I agreed with the 20 percent hike either. As far as Iâ€™m concerned we do have a ruling body and as I said I think all of you know and trust that I will represent your opinions in the best way(s) possible. If you (founding members) have a real problem with the increase or anything else I have done or not done tell me now. We can't make things better until we find out whatâ€™s wrong. If anyone else has a problem with anything or suggestions feel free to post it or contact the founders in PM. As far as Im concerned they are the council in this club and will remain so until â€œtheyâ€? decide otherwise. Each of these individuals has proved valuable to the club from the start:

1.MattG
2.Lowcel
3.coralreefer
4.odoprelude
5.pappygonefishi2002

IMO this is turning into one of the most ridiculous, counterproductive discussions we have ever had on the forum.

Thank you,
Ron

LowCel

12/11/2004, 10:47 AM

I elect Lana as leader!!!!!

What can I say, she brings cookies! :D

firefish2020

12/11/2004, 10:49 AM

I second the election of Lanna to the council she has proved herself valuable to this club as well.
Plus as stated "she brings cookies"

All founders in favor?

LowCel

12/11/2004, 10:52 AM

I'm for it.

Now, back to the subject at hand. This is truely ridiculous. Not only people not agreeing with the 20% but for all of the bickering. We do not need turmoil in what has been the best thing to ever happen to reefkeeping in this area.

I believe that all decisions are made public asking input from members. However, when it comes to the financial aspect I believe that Barry's wishes are pretty final. I'm not saying it's always going to be what everyone consider's fair. However, I don't think it is right for any of us to complain about his decisions. I gaurantee that he will do and has done much more good for this hobby and us than he will ever do bad.

I don't think it is right for any of this to be taken out on Ron. It wasn't even his decision. I believe if anyone wants to complain about it they should take it up with Barry personally. All I can tell you is at this time Barry is very frustrated with this entire situation. Does anyone blame him?

coralreefer

12/11/2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by firefish2020
I second the election of Lanna to the council she has proved herself valuable to this club as well.
Plus as stated "she brings cookies"

All founders in favor?

3rd
Especially if I get to actually meet her this time :)

MattG

12/11/2004, 12:28 PM

ok ill 4th it. im pretty sure ive met her :D

1package

12/11/2004, 04:12 PM

I did not want to drag this out any farther but people keep responding, so I do the same. I would bet if we were discussing this for 10 minutes face to face we would see a lot more neutral ground, that seems to be the way it is with email.

Matt - I am glad you expressed your opinion on the fact that you would support a decision making group. You also mentioned the store should have make decisions affecting finance (at this time), I see your point.

Pappy - you mentioned alternatives ways of revenue such as admission cost or lump sum to auction frags. This was the point that HMott was attempting to make in the beginning. That perhaps options were there if someone asked. I agree that it is sad that it turned sour from the first reply. I honestly believe if everyone had of taken HMotts comments less personally, it may not have happened, tough with email (and I did not help, for sure).

Ron - I think we will agree to disagree, your thoughts appear to be, whoever starts it - runs it and just personally elected a group to confer with yourself and Barry. This sort of supports HMott's perception of the situation. I think the bickering you mentioned could be have been avoided if we/you/someone asked for input as you did in the "how to improve the next meeting thread". That was what I got from HMott's comment as well. As for me needing to lighten up, perhaps you are right. But....it appears as though you took comments about this decision personally as you also did in the "how to improve thread" as you did with 2 different threads pertaining to catching a fish. Perhaps I am not the only one who needs to lighten up?

The expression of ideas and input is normal in any club or business as it gets bigger, if that is what you really want to see happen. There will be more HMott, 1Pack type responses. Ron, I was sort of hoping you would say something along the lines of "I suggest, the following people to lead future decisions, direction, etc...." and see if anyone else had an opinion or nomination.

I do not think that it is ridiculous to ask that opinions be considered?

Bruce - I guess you are referring to me on one side of the bickering? HMott and myself are the only ones not with the parade- he quit and in the second line of my first reply I said, "the money is no big deal and not the issue".

I feel like a broken record saying, "I am not complaining about the 20% decision" that apparently Barry made and Ron relayed, just the way it was handled, as if there were no options. I still agree nearly 100% with HMotts comments....and should respect the opinions of those who do not. If I had of started the CVRC I too would likely feel more defensive about people questioning decisions.

When I talk to Barry he does not appear to me to be the one running the CVRC, just showing a lot of support. I will stop by to talk to him some time this week about it, I see him nearly every week.

As for taking it out on Ron, (who?) prior to this reply, (I could have missed one) but I found Ron's name 3 times in 3 replies that I sent. All of which were expressing appreciation or thanks. So I am not sure about that one.

reef_jocky

12/11/2004, 05:39 PM

I work for a lfs. Working in a fish room, do you have any idea how many sales could be lost if the sales floor was so full of people that a person could not even shop around because they could not see fish or corals cause there might have been a person or persons' standing in front of the tank? Between $10 - $1000! The store has to make up that loss in some way. Or you can think of it this way! The first 10% is for the knowledge of the coral that you will buyt; how to keep it alive, what it eats, light or no light , water flow- high or low. This info given to you is priceless. With out this knowledge your coral may die. The other 10% goes towards the amount of money the store didn't sell for the amount of time it took to have the auction.I personaly think it should be 25%.
The extra would go toward the prizes and supplies.

firefish2020

12/11/2004, 07:10 PM

1package:
Perhaps you are right about me needing to lighten up.

"Ron, I was sort of hoping you would say something along the lines of "I suggest, the following people to lead future decisions, direction, etc...." and see if anyone else had an opinion or nomination"

As for me "just electing" I didn't just elect them I just made it public here so you and anyone else could see how it is, we decided this long ago except Cliff and I think Cliff has done a lot to help with keeping the club going thats why I include him. These individuals have always been there from the start and like it or not they are the founders who got this thing started. I have always listened to them and their opinions but as I said I am not in charge, you may think otherwise but I do not have the final say. If you or anyone else would like to be included in future decision making process please feel free to discuss or propose what you will here openly. but Barry will always have the right and the power to VETO any idea(s) you, the council members or me make.

1package: I also issue a public apology to you if you think I am attacking you personally, you are not the one who started this and like it or not Hmotts responses were very much directed at me." You and I may continue to disagree on things but thatâ€™s just fine. I don't think anyone here agrees with me on everything but one thing I will not apologize for is anything I said in the "catching a fish thread" :) Everyone knows why I said it and how I feel about it.

Please do come tomorrow and lets all have some fun it's almost Christmas :)

By the way any opposed to Lanna being a council member? If not It's done.

Also:
I see both sides and think we need some more council members to give us better variety of opinions, we need to have around 12 individuals to get a good vote. So the 2nd half of the council is up for nomination.

All in favor?

LowCel

12/11/2004, 07:27 PM

I like the idea, but I believe that we only need five more. I think it would be better if there was an odd number so no chances of ties.

1package

12/11/2004, 09:14 PM

Ron, no apology, for sure expected / required, etc....once this got rolling I was wishing I was not in it. Even my wife came by, read what was going on and said, "as much as you enjoy this, can not believe you would argue with these people".

I am going to go along with your and my wife's opinion and lighten up as well.

LowCel

12/11/2004, 09:16 PM

LOL

Just wanted to mention by "bickering" I was including myself.

Now......as a wise man once said.........can we all just get along????

Curtis1

12/11/2004, 09:29 PM

Ok, I'm sure that all of you were waiting to here my opinion,,,, 1st Amy invited me to the clubs forum. I was excited to get to meet some new people that had common interests. Then there was the club meeting, I couldn't wait to get there to meet you guys, I had planned ahead for days, and was well prepared. From the moment I walked thru the door,,, it was a whirlwind ! Everything went so fast, including all of my frags, Barry wasn't the only one that had something stolen. All I wanted was to go and meet the gang from the forum and swap a few frags. There were so many people there you couldn't even turn around to fart !!!! How many will be at the next one ???? Where in the he11 did all those people come from ??? Who told them about it ??? Did any of you guys that were here on the forum invite them all ??? How many were there ??? Even if each one only spent $10 or $20, I'd say that Barry probably still had a pretty good day. Personally I agree with Hmott and 1Package. But if Barry wants to have a frag swap and charge 20% then that's his perogative, hell it's his shop !!! I don't think that one person should be calling the shots for the club. Who's club is it ??? I joined the club, because honestly, I thought that it was only a few people taking turns getting together at each other's house to check out each other's tanks, maybe all pitch-in and order a pizza or something !!! I think that the club should be a whole seperate entity. Cliff, you were great man ! Matt, enjoyed lunch with you last week ! Bruce, thanks, for the Birdsnest, I owe you one. 1Package, you were one of the only ones that even offered to pay me for a frag !!! Chris, thanks, for including me in the last Hiller order, and special thanks for meeting me 1/2 way to deliver them, I still owe you $12, I lost your address, send it to me, and I'll get it out to you. Amy & Dave, need I say anything ???? Ron, Ron, what can I say ??? We got off on the wrong foot from the beginning !!! The most that can be said is that emails/words/text, do not express emotions or true feelings that may be misconstrued. And the FORUM members were right, you were a nice guy,,, just wish that you hadn't been so nice as to have given me that d&^n Diadema Urchine, it's already the size of a baseball LOL !!!!! As for the club,,, CVRC is no longer a club, it's like a big alligator, that keep's gettin' bigger, now you have to figure out how best to feed it !!! Here's what I think, that any of you probably even care,,,, 1. $5.00 cover charge to Jo-Mars, whether buying or selling. 2. Barry getting 10% is fine by me. 3. The auctioneer should get something, 5% say ???? As far as refreshments go, someone there close by or in the shop, should just sell them !!! 4. Doorprizes, I can live without, besides, Chris just wins them all anyway,:0). If all the bickering and chaos keep going on, plus I HATE crowds,,, I'd just as soon order over the internet, sit comfortably here at home in my recliner, relax, have a cup of coffee and wait for the FEDEX man on a Saturday morning !!! In the words of the immortal Eric Cartman from Southpark,,, "Screw you guys,,, I'm going home !!! "