Wish List - What would you like to see out of the reef club?

[Aquariust]

OK,

"In the meantime, maybe we can all come up with our individual 'wish lists' for what we'd like to get out of a club, for instance:

Guest Speakers (Dr. Ron?)
Library of videos and books
Central meeting location?
Raffles/Giveaways
Group cooperative purchases ('frag of the month club')"

-Rovert

Anyways, I'd like to see guest speakers every couple of months or so. I'd really like to take a trip to an aquarium one day. Meetings at LFS's are a neat idea, sepecially when they're happy to host us:)

I'd only like a central meeting location if 1) no one can host the meeting, and 2) we had a guest speaker.

I'd love to see raffles and giveaways. I'd love to see some kind of treasury so we can do positive things with the money.

Open to ideas, concerns, suggestions, wish lists, speak your mind:

[ATLANTIS]

Speakers are a great idea, but they cost money. Airline tickets and Hotels add up quick :(

When we tried to get NYCAS going, we had Craig Bingman speak. He lives in NY so it did not cost us anything. 5 people showed up :( We then had Bob Stark from ESV speak... 6 people showed :(


Here is my "wish list"

A monthly gathering of fellow reefers who can share stories and experiences that can help everyone improve themselves in the hobby.

Group trips to an aquarium or reef related site would be nice ( Did someone say Fiji :D )

Seeing other people setups... this goes a long way to individuals hosting meetings

[Nagel]

Seeing the way others have their systems setup really is nice. Considering alot of you have sumps and larger tanks, and I have a 29 with no sump, its interesting to see how we all solve common problems in our own ways.

The trading scene. I think we have a generous group of people, and I know myself, some peoples extras help stock newbies tanks. For example, jimroth has hooked me up numerous times, at this last meeting he just gave me a choc-chip size montipora frag, a colt frag and a green nepthia. Just for the heck of it. We've traded in the past, but the good-will is there. I have given some green stars and a devils hand frag to yuri, and he didn't have anything to offer up to trade either time. The point being. we help by captively propogating, we also leave "backup colonies" with other local reefers if ever our systems should crash, we merely get new frags from our trades and we're off again. I see some good things going on, and I would love to see it expand.

Having a topic of discussion. Even if we can't afford to get a speaker, just having a topic in which we can put in some input will always render positive results. Several simple examples are lighting, propagation, DSB's, refugiums, X-10 control, additives, etc... We can all learn from one another, and hear real experiences. Thats valuable information.

Meeting at a LFS, maybe getting a group discount for purchases would be nice. Even for some livestock, I know a few of us are setting up new tanks, and a group purchase of rock or cleaner packages would be nice.

More people! Seriously, we have a nice bunch of reefers, and we can do alot for each other as well as newbies in the hobby.

Possibly some type of ruling system, ex. president, vp, secretary, treasurer. This way we can set up a dues system and be able to host our site in "our domain" and have it be self-sufficient.

Possibly setting up some types of monthly frag raffles. Say you have to put in a frag to enter, and depending on the # of entries, if your number is called you win say, 6 frags. if there's 12 frags in the pot, then there's 2 winners.

Or a "welcoming committee" for newbies. I'm sure we could scrape together a 6 pack of easy corals for newbies between the lot of us. Why not help start someone out. I'm sure you felt really good the first time someone hooked you up. Spread that feeling, as well as tank raised livestock. It's only good for the hobby anyway!

Thats about it for now.....

[katspaw]

I am concerned about charges dues, we all have expense and such. I would like to keep the raffle idea. But we could do a 50/50. We will have the perfect opportunity here at reefsplendor, because one we have a nice list of people growing, with Uri we are at 32 attendees. Figure 5 or 10 dollars to enter the raffle, half the money is used to buy a nice coral, the other half goes to the club to buy the next coral to be raffled at the January meeting. If there is money left over then that is added into the pot with the proceeds from the raffle in January. Then it is used to buy a coral for the february meeting, and so on. If we get good deals on the corals, we start saving the money for the next venue on the list.
AS for a domain name, we own one. I paid for it. When I started the club, I started the domain also. Anyone wants to help pay for it, It cost 14.95 a month. I did this on my own and never said to anyone help me pay for it.
More people- We will get more people if we advertize that we have a club, and one with members, I see that John and I have the club in our Signature, everyone thinks it's a two member club. That's an inspiration to join. Thirty plus members makes you notice.
THose are just a few ideas, I will add more when I have the time.

Tracey

[bahrhoops]

I have a concern I would like to point out.
If we set up a raffle , for this coming meeting - you must realize that some people (like myself for example) have tanks that are fully stocked. So putting money into a kitty for livestock that I can't take is not something that I would like to participate in.
Setting up dues for frags poses the same problem.If I can't benefit at all from the money I'm putting in - then it's sorta foolish for me.I'm not trying to be cheap - just honest

I understand that plenty of you are not in my situation as far as stocking your system , but all of you will be someday (hopefully!)

If the money goes to paying for the website space , gift certificates for dry-goods , or shirts or whatever then that seems perfectly fine to me .
please respond or feel free to flame me :D
-steve

[Aquariust]

Steve I think the money from the raffle should presented in the form of a gift certificate to buy anyhting you want! I persoannlly don't think it should be limited to livestock. The money from the treasury will hopefully help pay for Tshirts, etc...

Tracey I think the coral idea is a good one, but as Steve said it may create confusion if their tank is full. And what if the coral is unnable to live in the winners tank? Some people only keep SPS. Winning a large softie would be useless for them. I was thinking of the raffle ONLY when we went to a fish store.

Hopefully, if we have money in the treasury, we will be able to give out tshirts, buz cards, gift certificates, etc... This way, everyone can use them.

Just my opinions...

[bahrhoops]

Ok,
I think that clears it up for me.Should we do a poll on whether we should or should'nt have dues ? maybe we should wait till we have a much larger club and then decide ? i dunno whaddaya think ?

btw , i like the newbie package idea .Weve been sorta doing that for eachother unoficially allready.

[katspaw]

How about we alter the same plan. instead of buying a coral, the winner gets half the money to do as they please. Sorry I do tend to forget that not everyone has a hhuge tank to fill:D either I'm lucky or stupid your choice, for having just a big tank And after I wrote that I was thinking what if someone went out and bought xennia and then I won. :bad: I wouldn't be too happy aboout. I think I am the only member that doen't have a piece in their tank :) which makes me happy. Sound better?

Tracey

[katspaw]

good idea. steve

[Aquariust]

Tracey in my honest opinion, I don't think giving the money to the winner is a good idea either. As much as I would love to have some money, it probaly wouldn't get spent on my tank. Ciggs, gas, fluids, there goes my reef money:)

My thought was to give out the gift certificate at the LFS. Whatever money is left can help pay for the site's domain, raffle tickets I ordered, chips, soda, beer and anything else that is an out of pocket expense for it's members. What ever is left over could be used to buy extra Tshirts to giveaway at a members house. Or, for eqipment, like heaters, powerheads, salt, etc... Things everyone can use.

Or whomever wins could choose to hold his or her winnings in the treasury, and when we go to a LFS, he/she could get that money to spend in the fish store.

BTW, I like the idea of a newbie package, but in theory, we already do that as it is. This is a very giving group and I for one am happy to say I am a member.

[Rovert]

Ok, here are some more random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Logo: I was looking at this the wrong way, and your points are all well taken. It costs us nothing to have a logo for our sigfiles or to print up on some cards to give out to potential new members. It's something that costs zero, but everyone can benefit from.

Dues: Where clubs and money are concerned, I think we can all agree the underlying purpose of collecting dues for any club is to offset the cost of meeting space, refreshments and other club resources (web bandwidth, supplies) that we all require and use. But given our preferance for NOT having a centralized location, I just think a standardized 'donation fee' is more straightforward and honest than the behind-the-scenes redirection of money from one 'fund' to the other. This is starting to sound more like Social Security than a reef club. :D

Gift Certificates: Initially I liked the idea. But in thinking about it, the underlying presumption is that we will be hosting a meeting or becoming aligned with, any given store or provider. Perhaps its best to not create any favoritism in our choice of where to hold the meeting? This kind of arrangement might lead to situations where there are ulterior motives for choice of venue, and the club gets 'steered' in a direction, without a forthright disclosure of what's happening behind the scenes.

Raffle, 50/50: Agree with John, that if it's only about the money, what's the point? We'd do better to play poker - at least there's some skill involved. :D The issue I see is that there are similar problems to the above, and speaking just for myself, I don't need a mommy to hold onto my allowance. :D I think it's critically important for us to know what we have, agree on where it will do the most good, and be sure it goes there. Otherwise, what's the point?

That said, I also agree that we need to do some fun things, and try new things. I'm willing to give (almost) anything a whirl once. There are some great ideas getting kicked around here, but many of them are really designed for larger groups. The fact that any given meeting hasn't had a turnout of more than a dozen or so suggests we might need to wait a while longer until we're knocking on the door of 100 members or more, before we introduce some of these concepts.

I think the most important thing at this stage of our development, if we do anything monetarily, is to explore things that have a benefit to EVERYONE in the club, not just to newbies, or advanced reefers, or FO tank owners.

Food for thought:
Most of us, even the 'newbies', are fairly well versed in contemporary reefing concepts. We're all fairly advanced in knowledge of biofiltration, and the fundamentals, having migrated from Fresh Water to Marine. That means that probably, what will excite us the most are new animals, tips, tricks, and techniques. How about directing our club resources to those more 'advanced' areas of knowledge? How about a 'buying pool' where we vote for a 'critter of the month club', and because there are so many of us, we DO get a volume discount, and would save on shipping? Why couldn't we be our OWN reef store, in some respects?

Critter Lottery: Write down on small cards, a type of coral, or critter, that interests us personally. At each meeting, we bring them, shuffle them up, and pick one out of the hat. Whatever it is, we'd take a poll, and purchase it in bulk, to be distributed at the next meeting. Those who don't have room in their tanks or aren't interested don't have to buy in. Those who are into it, benefit from the collective buying power of a large group, presuming that out of 30+ members, there will no doubt be 5 or 6 that want in. It's exciting, because there's some suspense, and an incentive to get your butt to the next meeting, so there are no slackers!

(man, I have WAY too much time on my hands... :eek2: )

[Aquariust]

Hey Robert I like the critter lottery idea! Yes some of these concepts would work better in a larger group. Others suit us fine the size we are.

As for dues, unlike social security I think we should have the treasury posted on the site. This way EVERYONE knows where the money is going. It would read like your online banking account. I am all for donations. But, I thought it would feel like less of a donation if it was incorporated into a drawing. We'd be getting the best of both worlds, members would win things and stay intrested, and the club would get it's donation.

As for gift certificates, I'm not sure I follow. Number 1, although there are behind the scenes affairs, I think the club should be made aware of them. I only liked the raffle idea if we went to a LFS. Any LFS for that matter. If they're nice enough to have a meeting their, then I see no reason why we can't force the winner to spend their winnings there. We don't have to go to the same LFS all the time, it could be random, or one that everyone agrees they like. I have no choice of venue if the LFS puts us up for the day.

Maybe you could clarify your lawyerish saying into layman's terms:D

[katspaw]

Rocert you came up with some good ideas there. I too like the fish lottery. Sounds very interesting. And o understand what you are saying about the gift certificate idea. I believe John is wanting to do a geift certificate for this meeting coming up and if we have another meeting at an LFS to do the same thing at their place. We would need to start talking to a few other lfs's. I know a guy who opened a store, actually bought out a store in the shore area, I don't think that Patrick at absolutely Fish would really be interested in something like that but could ask him if maybe possible. And then say 3 or 4 times a year we visit a LFS so have our meetings and have a raffle 50/50 with a gift certificate at that store then and then only. When we meet at a members house, I think it would be a great idea, to draw from a hat and maybe bulk buy some corals/fish from say Dr. Mac or Brian even. Again we would have to contact these people ahead of time to see if they would be willing to give us a large purchase discount. If everyone likes the idea I can contact several MO's to see if they would be interested in doing so. Of course if you want handle that you are more than welcome to do so:D Unfortunatley, we can say yes lets do it and there isn't a stt is agreeable with our ideas. :)

Tracey

[Rovert]

John, there are just a couple of things about the gift certificate that might be problematic. First, if the store is very far away from some members, that's not fair. Imagine if Spikey won a gift certificate to ReefSplendor, or Gerry won a certificate to Tropiquarium in Neptune. :eek2: The other thing that worries me a little is that if any given store becomes very aggressive in promoting to our club, we might be inclined to prefer our meeting there, no matter how inconvenient it might be for some people who are distant. Maybe a combination of your idea, Tracey's and mine? We do the 'critter lottery', and whoever won previous raffles would be able to have their 'certificate' applied to the next batch order that they're interested in. I know this is kind of like holding onto the money, but it's a compromise that makes sense for the moment.

Tracey, I think as the 'subject' for our next meeting, we might want to revisit all the ideas that arise between now and then, talk about what's easy and fun to do, and seek to launch it at the following meeting (January?).

Oh.. and buy from Brian? Say it ain't so! Only if we can use AMEX :D :D :D

[Aquariust]

Thanks for calrifying Robert:) I think you are confused on 1 thing though. I only said gift certificate because it would require you to spend the money right, then, and there. Not take it home and come back some other time. I would use cash, but then people may just run with it. Kinda like giving the winner their prize, only they get to pick it!

But, if they choose, they can take the gc home.

This whole thing could make a good debate at the January Meeting.

[Rovert]

Ah. Gotcha. But the issue about favoritism still remains. If we start preferring one venue over others because they become particularly 'cozy', it opens the door to conflicts of interest. In practical terms, travel distance for some members for a meeting at a 'preferred' store that shmoozes better but is farther away, than a closer, but less generous store, isn't in the club's best interest.

Just swizzling all the angles. Looking forward to wrapping it up next time we meet. I'm sure we can all agree on something that will be fun and fair for everyone.

[Aquariust]

Originally posted by Rovert
But the issue about favoritism still remains. If we start preferring one venue over others because they become particularly 'cozy', it opens the door to conflicts of interest. In practical terms, travel distance for some members for a meeting at a 'preferred' store that shmoozes better but is farther away, than a closer, but less generous store, isn't in the club's best interest.

I personally think we should give any LFS the chance to host us, as Tracey said maybe 2-3 times per year, then Brians 2-3 times per year, and at members houses the rest of the time.

About the general intrests, I will feel cozy at ANY lfs that treats us good. Where do you go to buy your goods and livestock? I'm sure you have a favorite place! Might not be the closest place, but it is worth the extra drive. Same theory here. If the group decides they really like a LFS we go to, why not show favoritism to that LFS? I have had to travel quite a distance to attend every meeting we have had, but I haven't complained. That's part of the club.

If the whole club agrees that the place we go is awesome, why not give them our business? I understand your looking out for everyone's intrests, but honestly, (and not to be rude Robert:)), let them decide for themselves what's in their best intrests. As you said, we will definately be discussing this at the next meeting, that WILL be fun and fair for everyone.

Please don't hate me Robert:)

[katspaw]

I have another point to make, I know that reefsplendor is going to be a drive for everyone, Some of the people coming have the priviledge of working right in town with them. But one thing that sets them apart from other LFS's in our area is that they are also a MO. When you buy online,don't you ever wish you would be able to see the store that you are buying from. Well, think of it this way, with reefsplendor you will, And if you want to continue buying from them, then it doesn't mean a long trip to get there. In the vendor forum of this website, I have read where people have bought and have been impressed with the condition of the packing and the price they paid, not to mention their satisfaction in the product. So it's not just going to a place and never going again, even if it is a distance, there is always the mail. This is the same with the other stores that we will be visiting. If they offer MO and you really like the store then why not use the MO to order from them if it is a distance to drive. And as for the fish lottery, I will talk to a few people and see if we can get a discount for bulk buying of a type of fish/ coral. I have an additional 24 inches of fish space in my new tank :D and really haven't thought about what I am going to put in there. Any suggestions would be helpiful.:D I am thinking a nice shoal of fish would be nice.

Tracey

[Rovert]

John, that's exactly the point!!!! I am trying to make sure we don't start off on the wrong foot, so everyone CAN make their own, unbiased decisions for themselves, and all arrangements are out in the open from the getgo.

However, as we can see from our exchange here, not everyone is comfortable addressing difficult issues, so somebody has to raise the subject for discussion. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. :D

And no, I don't hate you... I give good debate... but will you still respect me in the morning? :smokin:

[katspaw]

I am staying clear of that one. I promise I will be good.:p
Tracey

[katspaw]

oh If everyone would like to decide on a logo, I found a place to make the T-shirts for the club without any cost to us. Once all the logos are in and we have what we want, that image can be transferred to a webpage( john's job) and then we can buy the T-shirt to wear in many different sizes. the shirts go up to 4X size :D and we will also offer beer stiens, coffee cups, sweatshirts, and mouse pads with our logo on them. Cool or what. I have purchased a t-shirt from the company through another site's logo. and will post the quality of the product and logo on that shirt to let everyone know if this is a way to go. If the quality is good then I will have John attach the sell site to our website for everyone to purchase their t-shirt or product. And to thik it won't cost the club a dime to do this.:smokin: now that's smokin'

Tracey

[bahrhoops]

Woah Tracey that sounds amazing !!
do we have to pay for the printing at all ?
Good Job on that ! :D :D
I hope to submit my logo over the thanksgiving weekend , I can't seem to get photoshop to work for me and I might have to use a friend's computer to work on it.
-steve

[katspaw]

All we have to do is buy the shirt that we want, even one at a time. You will go intot he site that John will post later on the club site and pick out what it is that you want. We can offer our members a series of different syle t-shirts, sweatshirts long sleeve -T's beer stein coffee cup or mouse pad, they even offer hats, and totes if anyone is interested. All you have to do is go to the site, place the order and they will mail the item/s to you. You have to use a credit card of course, the standard t-shirts cost like 16.95 I think, but we don't have any other expenses with this.And I believe it is extra for large sizes. 2x and up.

Tracey

[ATLANTIS]

As I stated someplace else, this sounds like cafe press, the same place that prints shirts for reefcentral and reef.org and other places.

easy to set up a store....

nice quality shirts at a reasonable price.... they even fit me :)

[katspaw]

Brian :D you got it. I didn't see your post, glad to know they are top quality shirts that is a plus. :beer: the got an inexspensive way of doing this for us :thumbsup:

[bahrhoops]

Very nice to hear.
Us t-shirt junkies will be very excited when everything is ready to go.
hmm ...that reminds me I don't have my Atlantis shirt yet.
must make note to self to call Brian

[katspaw]

Well. if you think about this, if we get the logo going soon, then we can all have t-shirts for the meeting on Dec 8th, but I will be wearing my reeftalk.com shirt, I am a moderator over there after all and John link and chuckie from reef.org are both going.:D might as well have all the good boards showing up .:smokin: Should be a fun day!

Tracey

[bahrhoops]

Yes Tracey
sounds like an All-Star line up will be there.
Maybe I should bring my autograph book with me:lolspin: :lolspin:
-steve

[Rovert]

Again, forgive me for being the cynic, but perhaps I've become jaded in my old age. I have never, in my life, seen ANY business that did something for nothing.

John, just two messages ago, you insisted on letting people make their own decisions. Seems to me all the decisions have already been made. How did WE decide on the shirt provider? How did WE decide on where to have the next meeting? Why are WE in such a rush to chose a logo?

Tracey, as the self-appointed Den Mother, can we get our Cub Scout activity badges at the Tshirt place, too?

[katspaw]

Rovert,
I don't want to be a DEN Mother, being the mother of two children that I gave birth to is more than enough for me. I just made the suggestion that there is a place to buy T-shirts online and I knew that a number of different reef sites use this place to have their shirts done. I investigated and found out that it wouldn't be any additional cost to the club to have these shirts made. All we have to do is submit a logo and they will do the work for us, they will handle everything. the price of everything is included in the cost of the t-shirt. you buy one you will pay 16.00 for the shirt. I threw the idea out there for members to state one way or another if they liked the idea. I take it you don't like it, and therefore would prefer to have someone else make the shirts at some point down the line when everyone has gotten off their ***** And we have managed to raise funds to do it another way. As for the meetings, I stated at your place that I was going to host the January meeting, but then again if you would prefer someone else host it. You are more than welcome to collect volunteers for the January meeting. Why is it that Steve, Brian and I start to discuss these Shirts, that would be at no additional cost to you or any other member and you come down on John. He hasn't posted for the past 12 messages. You posted after him stating And no, I don't hate you... I give good debate... but will you still respect me in the morning? Please if you don't like what we are doing fine say so, it's okay to be involved. But don't jump on someone who isn't even involved in this section of the post.
Gau multi nasu>> That's greek look it up

Tracey

[Rovert]

Tracey, your reaction to this is very interesting.

The club isn't about any one member, but what the group wants. Since subtlety has eluded us here, let me point out that while we all appreciate your enthusiasm, so far, unilateral decisions have been made for the rest of the group without a consensus.
Nobody was asked if they wanted to drive 2+ to 3+ hours to upstate NY for the next meeting.
Nobody has even been given a chance to research other Tshirt providers
Nobody was sked what they wanted to do for a door prize. Need I go on? And what is yet to come?


Please if you don't like what we are doing fine say so, it's okay to be involved.Tracey, that's just the point. I am saying so, through subtle hints, but you're not hearing it. You continue to make decisions for the GROUP, without getting a consensus. So, why bother being involved if what you have to say is unilaterally overruled, anyway? That kind of 'democratic' policy is taking us down a very slippery slope.


But don't jump on someone who isn't even involved in this section of the post. Tracey, what the heck are you talking about? John has 5 posts on this running topic in this thread, and is amply capable of speaking for himself. I don't understand why you feel it's important to insert yourself into a message that's not intended for you.


Gau multi nasu I'm sorry you feel you have to hide behind a Greek expression. No, I don't have any inclination to look it up. I am capable of expressing myself in English, and have enough respect for everyone in our group, to post my thoughts openly, for all to see


Tracey, my point to you is to slow down, and wait for the CLUB to respond to all ideas. Otherwise, you may very well find yourself with a Reef Club of one.

[katspaw]

Gau multi nasu Means may your god be with you! You are a trying soul!
Just for your information. I have not set up anything to start selling NJ club shirts. And after reading over this thread several times, it seems to me, that the only ones who have responded is John, Eric, Steve, Brian, you and I. Every time we try to do anything to look into which way the club should go, it gets shot down. It appears that the only ones who voice their ideas are wrong. The fish lottery is a good idea, but where are we going to get a lot of fish for a discount, not everyone is willing to drop prices just for us. Your idea so that is one for you to find. People were interested in having a logo, so members decided to submit a logo, Eric drew one and Steve is working on one as well. I was going to do another one but thought better on it. Quite honestly, I am ready to take a side seat and do as everyone else is doing. Nothing but make others feel they are doing everything wrong. I started this thing to bring people who share the love of saltwater aquariums together. To be able to see were they are going in this hobby and to learn from them, and when possible do a little trading. Now that we have a bigger group of people, I figured it was time to move the club up a little in it's standing. After the Reefsplendor meeting, I will not interfere with the planning of meetings or the doings of the club. Anyone who wants the list of members is free to email me and I will be more than happy to send it to them. Or I will just start another thread with the list and if anyone wants they can continue club on. John had the passwords to my account at yahoo and he can get in and change the credit card number to pay the monthly dues as well. As for now I am out of this bickering and nit picking. Obvisiouly Rovert if you don't approve then the whole club doesn't approve.

Tracey

[bahrhoops]

Ok guys it's gut-check time,

I hope I am speaking for the rest of the club as I persuade both Tracey and Robert to keep from going to any drastic measures by either quitting or dis-manteling our club.It means too much to alot of us.
I like both you guys in different ways and I know you you just want the best out of NJRC. Perhaps you even care more than all of the rest of us , which is why your both highly opinionated.We can all read this thread and come up with our own conclusions why we hit this speed bump.

But getting together with fellow local reefers makes it all worth while because we are such a rare breed of people , and it is such a niche hobby.- we all know It's so hard to find local hobbyists

I'm in no position to tell either of you what to do , but please keep your fellow members in mind and try to make ammends.At least try that .Were a very new club in our rookie season - and I am hoping we will be able to share years of friendship with eachother.

Maybe even taking a few nights off the boards would help settle the soup.
sorry for the "sappy" tone of the message

-steve



;)

[Rovert]

*sigh* :rolleyes:

Tracey, no reason to get maudelin, and the cheap shot wasn't really called for, was it?

Everyone appreciates your enthusiasm. But a little goes a long way, and one can have too much of a good thing. If you read the title of this this thread, the purpose was supposed to be to COLLECT IDEAS, not make any final decisions.

If by 'trying soul', you mean someone who doesn't just lay down and let someone else monopolize the decision process... yup. That's me.
Yes, there are only 6 of us who have been debating here, all the more reason we need to hold off until we meet before 6 people make decisions for 60 members.
Nothing has been 'shot down' in absolute terms. We've only debated the relative merits of various ideas. Some will work. Others won't. We won't know for sure until they're all presented.
Nobody is 'wrong' until a decision against it is made, which we haven't done because nobody has VOTED, have they?
I don't pretend to know if the 'lottery' is a good idea or not, but we won't know either way unitl we present it, and vote on it.
We won't know who's willing to give us a volume discount until we pool our ideas for who WE want to do business with.
Why is our 'standing' important to anyone? You said yourself this is for the love of the hobby... not a race against other clubs.
Tracey, we're not picking at nits. These are important issues to people, and I'm probably not the only one who feels this way.All I'm saying is that we need to put the brakes on a little, wait for everyone else to catch up, and not make any decisions outside the confines of our meeting, or until a majority of our members are all on the same page. Now you want to do nothing. There's just no middle ground with you, is there? It's either your way, or nothing. Surely there are other options, no?

My goal here is to be sure we're do the maximum good for the maximum number of members. And we won't know what that is, for perhaps another couple of meetings yet.

I, too, am done, and this is my last post on this issue. You guys do whatever you want. I have done nothing but advocate patience, democracy, fairness, and consideration of the needs of others. If that constitutes too much criticism for you, then I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

[Nagel]

Originally posted by bahrhoops
Ok guys it's gut-check time,
Maybe even taking a few nights off the boards would help settle the soup.
sorry for the "sappy" tone of the message

;)

I couldn't agree more Steve. I agree with your entire post. Especially about the ones who want to see the most come out of this club, being the most opinionated. Each in their own right, each with very valid points, but neither opening their ears fully to the others ideas. Such a sad situation, because there's an obvious desire to do whats good for the "club". Personally, I think Tracey HAS done alot to bring us together as a group, and keep a "central" spin on things. I also see what Robert has to say about taking some things slow, and not making a mountain out of a molehill, but rather let it evolve into its own right. Both are for the benefit of us all, and both can happen. We just have to be open to others ideas. I suggested dues to help offset the cost of the website, and in doing so I was also stating I would be willing to do such a thing as pay dues. Some of you thought that was getting ahead of the game, and said no dues, and you don't hear me arguing why not? I just listened to other people, thought the majority wasn't for it at this stage of the game and let it go. I think everybody needs to take a chill pill on this, and drop control for a moment. Just think about what you want out of the club. Whats good for the WHOLE club. Personally, I don't mind driving to a meeting. Granted, I probably wouldn't attend one in Cape May, but I don't mind 2-3 hours drive once a month.

In the meantime, set your personal thoughts on the side burner and concentrate on whats good for the mass of the club.

[volk23]

I follow this post too, I just didn't have anything to say. I still don't :), except stop fighting, there are very little of us here and no need to split up or make someone uncomfortable.

People are sheep and we need a leader, whoever has an idea submit it to him/her and he/she will bring it up as a discussion make a final decision. If people don't like the leader we re vote or something.

All ideas here are good, but we need to work on one at a time.

- my2c -

[Aquariust]

OK, i will post my final thoughts tonight when I have more time.

For now, I can say:

I agree with Steve, Uri, and Erik!

I was afraid this was going to happen. If these issues are going to make the club argue, and disband, then I say let's forget the whole thing. The whole idea was to make it more fun for ALL of us. But, apparently it's trying to tear us apart.

I'm going to stick with the raffle on Dec 8th, but I am doing nothing more except posting my ideas and opinions.

Now, Rovert has been "supposedly" speaking for all the members who are quiet. Please, stand tall and post your opinions so we can decide what's the next step we should take. If you agree with Robert's posts say so. If you agree the club should move forward say so. Don't just read, we need everyone's opinions here. I agree with some of what Robert Says, but he's sticking up for members that may or may not feel the same way he does. Come out of the dark.

I'll post more later. Boy, that's gonna be a long one:)

[ATLANTIS]

Originally posted by ATLANTIS

Here is my "wish list"

A monthly gathering of fellow reefers who can share stories and experiences that can help everyone improve themselves in the hobby.

Group trips to an aquarium or reef related site would be nice ( Did someone say Fiji :D )

Seeing other people setups... this goes a long way to individuals hosting meetings

As I stated in the beginning.... My preference is to keep it simple. ( or KISS :) )

Why are some folks driving from 2 to 5 hours north for an NJ reefers club meeting? Looks to me that this was planned in advance of our last meeting, though we didn't really discuss it (at least not that I know of) at the last meeting...

I will be going because many of my reefer friends are from up that way and they will be going.... Though, to be honest, I am not as excited as others about the destination as I am excited about seeing my fellow reefers... I would put this meeting in my second category of my wish list... Group Trip

I know that I have done my Fair Share to keep this club alive as it wallowed in oblivion from April till October... Steve & Roberts gracious hosting of the last 2 meetings have brought this club back to life and I certainly appreciate it.

My suggestion is to take it slow.

[katspaw]

Honestly,
The only problem I have encountered here is What I consider one person answering for a whole group and this got out of hand. As for the ReefSplendor event, I didn't consult with anyone as to weather or not they wanted to have a meeting there. Joe is one of the owners of reefsplendor, and he is a member of this club as well. He joined in the early summer, but has been very busy starting out this new company. He offered up his business as a meeting place. After going and seeing it, I honestly didn't think that anyone would really mind the drive, once they knew what they held within their walls. And knowing that this was to be somewhat of an private party for everyone in the area, I also thought it would be fun to be able to meet reefers that we talk to everyday yet never have met, or as in Brian's case, a chance to get together with old friends that share the same love of this hobby. I figured if any member didn't want to come he wouldn't. End of story. I guess I was wrong, I have seen were Brian and I were the only ones in the beginning who wanted to host a meeting. But what fun is that to go to the same place all the time.
As for some of the things that we discussed here, such as the logo, t-shirts, raffles, biz cards. We have to start with one, the logo, without that we don't go to step two. I had draw up a logo to put on the website when I first started it. Okay no body in the club likes it, so it fine we change it. That ends the story. We have a larger response online and thru the email than we do at some meetings. I say that we have a poll online and I will email everyone ( because I am the only one who has everyone of your names) the webaddress to vote on the best logo. I ask you why should 12 or 13 people decide for a group of thirty. Having a vote at a meeting doesn't mean everyone is being heard.
Next: If and when we do decide to go ahead and present to the group that we would like to do t-shirts or anything else, I think that all the facts should be presented at that time. It isn't fair to say yeah everyone do you want to have tshirts for the club made, they respond yeah, sounds good>> how much are they?? and you say." Well I wanted to know if you wanted me to look into it, I will let you know next meeting. At that rate we would get things done in a years time. The proper way of doing it is to annouce to the club if They would like to have tshirts made, if the answer is yes, then we continue on with we now have several choices, ! we can pay 50 and have the screen made for a one color only tshirt, and pay XXX amount of dollars for each tshirt or 2. we can go online submit a logo and the tshirts will cost each person who wants one exactly 16.95 plus shipping and handling. This goes with everything else as well. Can this forum have polls?? I think that we should poll the members as to what they want. If any one likes the idea please let me know. I am tried of stepping on toes and being insulted.
Tracey

[Fazm79]

I am complete agreement with Brian on this one. Everyone has good ideas and they should all be taken into consideration when making decisions for the club. The strength of a club is in its members and the different views and opinions that are represented.

I do strongly believe that since this is a NJ reef club the meetings should be in NJ. Even a meeting in NJ can be a drive for some of us. Hell I had to drive an hour and a half to get to Rovert’s place, and while it was worth it, a 3+ hour drive to NY in my opinion is too far especially for the people further South than me. A trip to a place such as ReefSplendor would be nice, as other reefclubs have outings in other states, but the meetings should stay in NJ (after all it is the NJ ReefClub). We have a great bunch of NJ members so I see no reason to go out of the state for meetings. If reefers from other states would like to come to club meeting there should be no problem with that but a three-hour drive to a meeting in NY is a bit too much.

Tracey you have done a lot of work and I thank you for that (as I’m sure all the other members do). The thing I liked most about the club is I could spend a couple hours during a weekend with a bunch of people many of whom have become friends, who share a common passion as me and I didn’t have to travel a great distance to do so.

[bahrhoops]

these are my views for NJRC It's a long but simple list:

- MEETINGS- Monthly or every two months meetings hosted by a member here in Jersey where his/her setup is on display .

-NOTES- setting aside at least 15 min at the meetings to talk about club current events or "notes" . discussing : future plans , concerns , & ideas for the club (like we are doing here in this thread).Maybe we should do this after an hour or so - perhaps immedeately after our traditional group photo

-OFFICERS- A President and a Webmaster should be named or voted on for a one year term IMO. Right now we have Tracey and John taking those positions as far as I understand. If they become too busy or move out-of -state , we vote someone in to keep things going.The president should conduct the "notes" at the meetings IMO, if he-she is not there the webmaster could fill in or we could just have a group discussion.

-GROUP TRIPS- , keeping in mind we could have a smaller turnout if it is over a 2 hour drive (that's 4 hours of driving total)

-LOGO- A logo vote once all submissions are in even if it takes a few months to get all submissions together. this is a great way for everyone to participate. including Tracey

-RAFFLES - I'm not against raffles as long as we understand it is not mandatory for members (we understand that)

- DUES - IMO are not necessary and probably the kiss of death

-T-SHIRTS- everyone knows I like the idea ,I think John or Tracey said they could enter a section in the homepage.If a member wants one they buy it , if they diont want it , they don't buy it

pretty much everything else can be worked out in meetings and on the message board.

- one final note - meetings are very easy to engineer . When I hosted mine , I posted the announcement with the proper date ,time, and clear directions four weeks before the date.I posted on 3 sites (RC , Reefs.Org , and Reeftalk) .Brian and I fielded just a few emails and the message boards took care of everything else.Of course our membership seemed smaller at that time but putting together a meeting/party is fun and easy .
Hopefully we will have alot of hosts between us , that way we will see more set-ups.

and yes- I am a KISS-er
- steve

[Aquariust]

Originally posted by Rovert
Dues: Where clubs and money are concerned, I think we can all agree the underlying purpose of collecting dues for any club is to offset the cost of meeting space, refreshments and other club resources (web bandwidth, supplies) that we all require and use. But given our preferance for NOT having a centralized location, I just think a standardized 'donation fee' is more straightforward and honest than the behind-the-scenes redirection of money from one 'fund' to the other.
[/B]

That is fine with me, I have no problem making a donation, but the people you are speaking for haven't said they'd like to make a donation. As you can see, we all have our own varying opinions. Robert I understand it is simply a debate, but you have been acting more like a lawyer;) We post, you say "objection your honor":D

I just don't want to scare members away by just charging a donation fee. Yes the older members will be fine with it, but what about newcomers? They may see that other than how we do. Making it a raffle or "game" may have it's advantages.

Originally posted by Rovert
There are some great ideas getting kicked around here, but many of them are really designed for larger groups. The fact that any given meeting hasn't had a turnout of more than a dozen or so suggests we might need to wait a while longer until we're knocking on the door of 100 members or more, before we introduce some of these concepts.
[/B]

I believe the meeting number was 15 or so at least:) Anyways, supposedly we have 30 some odd members. Where they all are is a mystery to me. The least they could do is come here to the boards. Which, BTW, I think RC should be the primary meeting place for NJ Reefers Club Official Chat. All members need to be on the same page. If we had 30 odd members I think anything would be doable, just getting them all to show up is the problem. When will we be knocking on 100 members if we do nothing to advertise? And even if we do, where we gonna put them all at? My apt is smaller than yours:) We can go slow, we can vote, but no matter what, this club needs alittle organization.

Originally posted by Rovert
Tracey, I think as the 'subject' for our next meeting, we might want to revisit all the ideas that arise between now and then, talk about what's easy and fun to do, and seek to launch it at the following meeting (January?).

Just swizzling all the angles. Looking forward to wrapping it up next time we meet. I'm sure we can all agree on something that will be fun and fair for everyone.

[/B]

I'm willing to bet more people surf the net than attend the meetings. Why can't this board be a deciding factor in any decisions? IMO, your making things much harder than they have to be. No one ever said we were gonna rush right into production of all these ideas. You say their good ideas, but we need to wait. How long shall we wait?

Originally posted by Rovert
I am trying to make sure we don't start off on the wrong foot, so everyone CAN make their own, unbiased decisions for themselves, and all arrangements are out in the open from the getgo.

However, as we can see from our exchange here, not everyone is comfortable addressing difficult issues, so somebody has to raise the subject for discussion. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

[/B]

Please, if you have a problem say something. What is more unbiased then the text and boards in front of you? It is a tough job, but you only have to do it if you must.

Originally posted by katspaw

I am staying clear of that one. I promise I will be good.
Tracey

[/B]

Ummmm, you promised;)

Originally posted by Rovert
Again, forgive me for being the cynic, but perhaps I've become jaded in my old age. I have never, in my life, seen ANY business that did something for nothing.

John, just two messages ago, you insisted on letting people make their own decisions. Seems to me all the decisions have already been made. How did WE decide on the shirt provider? How did WE decide on where to have the next meeting? Why are WE in such a rush to chose a logo?

Tracey, as the self-appointed Den Mother, can we get our Cub Scout activity badges at the Tshirt place, too?

[/B]

Hmm, ugly post:( Trust me their not doing it for nothing. They're having fun too. They're making sales. Advertisements, vendor experiences, word of mouth.

We do let them make their own decisions. WE Decided on the Tshirt provider here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45965

Everyone said they'd look into it. You can't expect Tracey from passing up a deal like that! If it was your idea I would've ran with it too.

Tracey is the founder, and she stated she was hosting the next meeting. Actually, Joe? is hosting it. I don't remember voting to go to your house last month. Or Steve's for that matter. If you post it ahead of time, the meeting will be there. I think that's fair to all the members. I am considering hosting the Jan or Feb meeting.

We're not rushing, we just want our T shirts:) And WE are voting on it:)

Originally posted by katspaw

and you come down on John.

[/B]

TY Tracey, but I am well capable for standing up for myself:)

Originally posted by Rovert
Nobody was asked if they wanted to drive 2+ to 3+ hours to upstate NY for the next meeting.

Nobody has even been given a chance to research other Tshirt providers

Nobody was sked what they wanted to do for a door prize.

Need I go on? And what is yet to come?

[/B]

No one has to attend if they don't want to.

Why research, do you think we'll find a better, simpler idea? If someone comes up with something better it wouldn't be hard to switch over.

Why ask what the door prize should be if they can pick it themselves?

Originally posted by katspaw

Quite honestly, I am ready to take a side seat and do as everyone else is doing. Nothing but make others feel they are doing everything wrong. I started this thing to bring people who share the love of saltwater aquariums together. To be able to see were they are going in this hobby and to learn from them, and when possible do a little trading. Now that we have a bigger group of people, I figured it was time to move the club up a little in it's standing. After the Reefsplendor meeting, I will not interfere with the planning of meetings or the doings of the club. Anyone who wants the list of members is free to email me and I will be more than happy to send it to them. Or I will just start another thread with the list and if anyone wants they can continue club on. John had the passwords to my account at yahoo and he can get in and change the credit card number to pay the monthly dues as well. As for now I am out of this bickering and nit picking.

Obvisiouly Rovert if you don't approve then the whole club doesn't approve.

[/B]

Please Tracey, I'd prefer to not hear talk like that. When things don't go your way you can't just run away:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bahrhoops


I hope I am speaking for the rest of the club as I persuade both Tracey and Robert to keep from going to any drastic measures by either quitting or dis-manteling our club.It means too much to alot of us.


But getting together with fellow local reefers makes it all worth while because we are such a rare breed of people , and it is such a niche hobby.- we all know It's so hard to find local hobbyists

I'm in no position to tell either of you what to do , but please keep your fellow members in mind and try to make ammends.At least try that .Were a very new club in our rookie season - and I am hoping we will be able to share years of friendship with eachother.

I agree completely Steve:)

Originally posted by Rovert
Tracey, no reason to get maudelin, and the cheap shot wasn't really called for, was it?

I, too, am done, and this is my last post on this issue. You guys do whatever you want. I have done nothing but advocate patience, democracy, fairness, and consideration of the needs of others. If that constitutes too much criticism for you, then I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.
[/B]

Excuse me Robert, but I believe it started with:

"Tracey, as the self-appointed Den Mother, can we get our Cub Scout activity badges at the Tshirt place, too?"

Please, post away, YOUR opinions are well noted. They will all go onto 1 vote. Your also not voting for everyone here. I get a vote, Tracey, Steve, and so on... Are you sure this isn't what you want? You are considering the needs of others, but you haven't done anything to get their opinons. Take your own advice, slow down, and post YOUR opinions, and not the opinions of the group.

Originally posted by Fazm
I do strongly believe that since this is a NJ reef club the meetings should be in NJ. Even a meeting in NJ can be a drive for some of us. Hell I had to drive an hour and a half to get to Rovert’s place, and while it was worth it, a 3+ hour drive to NY in my opinion is too far especially for the people further South than me. A trip to a place such as ReefSplendor would be nice, as other reefclubs have outings in other states, but the meetings should stay in NJ (after all it is the NJ ReefClub). We have a great bunch of NJ members so I see no reason to go out of the state for meetings. If reefers from other states would like to come to club meeting there should be no problem with that but a three-hour drive to a meeting in NY is a bit too much.
[/B]

I agree Fazm, the only reason we're doing this is because they're making it a mini macna! I'm guessing your not going to TX for Macna:)? We can carpool:eek:

Originally posted by bahrhoops

-RAFFLES - I'm not against raffles as long as we understand it is not mandatory for members (we understand that)

-OFFICERS- A President and a Webmaster should be named or voted on for a one year term IMO. Right now we have Tracey and John taking those positions as far as I understand. If they become too busy or move out-of -state , we vote someone in to keep things going.The president should conduct the "notes" at the meetings IMO, if he-she is not there the webmaster could fill in or we could just have a group discussion.




Steve I'm personally not keen on officers, at least not yet. Don't get Robert started:) BTW, the raffle isn't mandatory;)

Please if I made rude comments I'm sorry. Don't take it personnaly.

If you haven't read this link, please do so:

http://www.masna.org/archives/start.htm

Good Night and Happy Thanksgiving NJ Reefers!

[bahrhoops]

John let me reiterate on that last point .
I think it's good to have an El Prez mostly just to hold the floor at meetings for a few minutes to make sure we are all on the same page.(i called it "notes") then opening the floor for a discussion in person.
We did'nt do it the last two meetings, and i think we are trying to catch up now on the boards because of it.
Of course we can do it all this way on the boards as well but alot of our comments are getting jumbled and sometimes mis-interpeted here online. Other than that - a "president" is not really necessary IMO .

That being said - I agree with you that online voting in a poll thread is the best way to get a maximum number or responses from our members.

[katspaw]

Being that we have members from PA and NY and CT, if some of them are just across the border, Such as Ken, and what about Gerald and Spykey. All of these reefers travel great distances to come to meetings in NJ. Spykey has been to the Last few meetings. Now is it fair to him if he wanted to show off his tanks, That we say no, we won't travel outside of NJ. Everytime we have a meeting at someone's home the rest of the group has to travel. I drove over an hour to get to Roverts, and almost an hour to Steve's and also Brian's place. I don't mind the driving part, I know that everyone will turn around and one day come to my place and I won't have to travel at all on that meeting. But let's be fair here, If we have people from out of state who attend the meetings if at some point, they want to have the same honor of hosting a meeting, we can't just cut them off. If that's the case, we are going to lose members. If one of our different state members wanted to host, I would go. This is what is fair.

Tracey

[bahrhoops]

good point

[Aquariust]

BTW, Larry aka Spykey lives just south of me in NJ:) I am all for traveling. I'd prefer to only have a 15 minute drive, but an hour or two is worth it IMO to share the day with you guys.

See ya's on the 8th!

[katspaw]

Funny he stated PA in his replies to me, maybe he works there. :confused:

Tracey

[Rovert]

Well, it's nice to see we're all bashful here. :D

I promised myself I wasn't going to respond, but since it seems there are a few new thoughts here, let me reply.

Tracey: I say again, that obviously, everybody appreciates your enthusiasm, myself included. But so far, you've heard from Steve, Brian, Eric, and myself that we need to slow it down a bit. I think the point here is that the majority of us feel as though we just got whiplash from a sudden change in direction, without realizing we were even along for the ride. :eek: As for me 'speaking for everyone', I'm not going to respond to that, other than to ask you to reveiw the decisions and commitments that have been made on behalf of the club, without our knowing about it. Everything is after the fact. That's the issue here. Plain and simple. 'k? Friends?

John: Let's not look for opportunities to make issues where there are none. My 'Den Mother' comment was tongue-in-cheek, the same way your 'lawyer' comment (the first of these types, if you review the record) was intended to be. However, I can take a little ribbing, and I haven't made this personal. Regarding my 'ugly' reply, it wasn't intended to be so, but I think external influences caused a misinterpretataion. I have said time and again that I don't pretend to speak for anyone, but to give everyone an opportunity to speak for themselves, so I'm confused why we're revisiting it here, but no matter. It's done. BTW, just to help you and Spikey out, I don't know how familiar you guys are with NY. The travel time for you will probably be closer to 3+ hours each way. The store is roughly at the intersection of I-84 and the Taconic, approx. 150 miles from Trenton, without factoring in for holiday shopping traffic on a Saturday, two weeks before Christmas. I know the area, and it's not fun to get over the GWB (a nightmare on any day), or TappanZee (with major malls on both ends, now), at that time of year. The only other alternative crossings are either the Bear Mountain Bridge, or the Newburgh Beacon bridge. Of those two, the Newburgh bridge is closest to the store, on a parallel path across I-84. I'm reconsidering my options, and might not make it, after all. I just said 'yes' at first, to be a team player.

Uri: Sheep are important, if your goal is to make a sweater through their cooperation.

RC as 'Meeting Place': John, that's a great idea, and it makes sense. I'm up for that, if that's what we agree on. One thing I would caution, however, is that whatever issue is up for grabs be posted for long enough to get feedback from the group. Not everyone logs on every day. Maybe we could 'broadcast' an email to the group when there's a decision pending, so that everyone receives an alert in their Email, and can log on. Or, do we think it makes sense to have our own 'private' BB like ReefCentral, on our website?

PA, NY, CT Members Yes, we do have 'members' from CT, PA and NY. What happens if we have a 'member' who owns a store in Canada? Do we all hop a flight out of Newark? :eek: IMO, we are primarily a NJ group, and our meetings should be held reasonably within the confines of the state, or slightly over the border. I look forward to everyone's company, but since there are no dues (yet...), if someone doesn't show up, they won't have paid for nothing. That's why I preferred the 'pay as you go' method of contribution. But I'm ok with whatever the group wants; dues, no dues, contribution, no contribution, either way. I'll go along with whatever you guys decide.

Tshirts: Style#08410, Lee ring spun heavy cotton with 1 color front left chest logo, and 2 color back, on regular size. This is the "Got Fish" shirt for the JSAS that you guys may remember seeing me wear.
60 Pieces - $6.75 each (XXL sizes a bit more)
Art Setup Estimate: $35
PRICE PER SHIRT: $7.35

Logo: I have asked Gary Wong, a professional graphic artist who designed the JSAS logo (in my sig file) and the "Got Fish" Tshirt logo, to design something for us. It may take him a few weeks. I am also working on a few different logo concepts myself. Hopefully, we're not in such a hurry that we have a 'rush to judgement'. Remember that full color logos and pictures become VERY expensive to reproduce for promotional items, and don't transfer well to clothing. The fewer the colors, and the simpler the graphic, the easier it is to find more things to put it on, and the more versatile it becomes. As the 'lawyer' in the group it is incumbent upon me to offer a gratuitous Cochranism: "If it doesn't print, we'll have to squint". :D :D :D

Happy T-day to all!

[Fazm79]

I agree with Rovert. Being a NJ club I still agree with the fact that our MEETINGS should be in NJ. Since we do have members from outside of the NJ area we can have outings to see their tanks but I still strongly believe the club meetings should be held inside the state. When I was a participant of CMAS and WAMAS the meetings were held in the areas that the club name held namely the Chesapeake Area and the Washington Area respectively. These clubs did have participants from other areas but the meetings and main events were held within area that was closest the majority of the members. People in NY, PA, and neighboring states have clubs within their own states but we with the exception of this club, I know of no other for reefers in the NJ area.

Also the tee shirt idea is great!!

[MiNdErAsR]

Originally posted by Rovert
The store is roughly at the intersection of I-84 and the Taconic, approx. 150 miles from Trenton, without factoring in for holiday shopping traffic on a Saturday, two weeks before Christmas. I know the area, and it's not fun to get over the GWB (a nightmare on any day), or TappanZee (with major malls on both ends, now), at that time of year. The only other alternative crossings are either the Bear Mountain Bridge, or the Newburgh Beacon bridge. Of those two, the Newburgh bridge is closest to the store, on a parallel path across I-84.


Your best bet might be to take the NYS Thruway up to I-84. The Newburgh-Beacon Bridge rarely has major traffic, and the toll on the bridge is only $1. This is the way to go from NJ.

To take the GWB or the Tap would be utter insanity. The Bear Mountain Bridge would not be a very direct route, and would certainly add a heap of time to the trip.

I live about 20 minutes south of I-84 off the Taconic, and I'm so looking forward to a great shop so close to home. I hope it can live up to all the hype! :) Also looking forward to seeing some friends and making new ones.

[katspaw]

Thanks Jim,
I was going to post that sometime next week. Actually for those taking the GSP, you can go straight into the thruway from there. Then the exit for 84 is I believe 16 miles after rte 17 at exit 16. Once on 84 you will exit at 15. Everyone thinks it's really far up into NY but it isn't that bad. :).

Tracey

[Aquariust]

for those of us in South/Central Jersey anywhere in NY is a bit far:)

[Spykey]

Tracy

I live in a town in southern NJ that no one has ever heard of, just outside of Philly. Instead of going through the confusion of explaining where I live, I just say I just say I'm traveling from Philly.

Everyone
I also think meetings should be in NJ. This is obviously an exception to the rule, because it is one of our members starting a business and opening it up to us. I probably have the longest drive ( 3+ hours plus traffic)and cannot honestly assure you guys I'll be there, but I think it is a good idea. I wish we could have voted on this, or at least brought up the traveling concerns during the last meeting.

BTW I am not usually one to speak out, so don't expect me to contribute much to these types of debates. Also I appreciate the thought and leadership John, Tracy, Steve and Rovert have shown. In essence you guys represent all of us. ( I think?)

Healthy debate is good, personal attacks are not

C-ya

Spykey

[katspaw]

Larry,
Thank you for clearing things up, and I appreciate the input as I am sure everyone here has. And don't be bashiful about speaking up. Rovert and I will get into it every now and then I know, But that doesn't mean that we will break up the club. We fight because we are both passionate about the club, and we have different views is all. I do hope to see you and your family at the Dec event :)

Tracey