filtration,what is the best way to go

[SirDudeness]

Hello
I really think my head is about to explode:wildone:
I have a 46gal tank,the only filtration I have on this tank is a Penquin Bio-Wheel 330 by Marineland and a RedSea prizm skimmer,I have created my own overflow for the skimmer out of a small rubbermaid container,this works very well to keep all the scum off the top of the water,should I be looking at a sump of some sort or a canister filter,I don't have a lot of room under my tank but I really feel I need to upgrade my filtration system a bit,I don't have much live stock in the tank,just 4 fish a few crabs and one coral,I ordered my lighting yesterday,a jbj pc that will give me 192 watts,after I get my lighting in I would like to start putting more corals in my tank,I don't want filtration to be a problem,
thanks again-James
:beer:

[tyoberg]

Most reefers these days use a modified berlin setup--Deep Sand Bed, Live Rock, and a protein skimmer. That's a pretty typical setup.

[SirDudeness]

I have 3" of crushed coral for a bed now and about 20 pounds
of live rock,I'm going to get 40 pounds after I get my lighting.
Is the crushed coral good enough for the bed or do I need to have sand?????
I'm also thinking about putting the rock from my tank into a sump of some sort and replacing all my live rock with new rock.
Do you feel I need a better skimmer?????
If I put together a sump,can I trash the bio-wheel ????
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a sump,the bigger the sump the more water for the tank.......
thanks -James

[Impaler]

I have recently upgraded my little 20 gallon tank with a sump. Works great! I'm running an eheim canister, empty, for the return(will use carbon in it as needed). DIY'd a permanent(doesn't break when the power goes out) siphon overflow. The eheim didn't pump very well with 3' head, so I put in a $35 powerhead to get things moving in the tank. 30-35# rock, CC bed in the tank, and the sump is a recycled 15glass with a 5 inch oolitic aragonite bed. I'm estimating the total volume to be near 35 gallons, minus whatever the rock and sand displace. All parameters are stable, and the nitrates are now officially FALLING! Even after a 50% change it was 10-15ppm, but after 1 1/2 weeks it's already under 10ppm. Credit the aragonite on that.


That's my system. HTH. Maybe you can get ideas from my setup.
Dan

[Nanook]

Hey James, while your tank is new, I would put in a deep sand bed now. You will kick yourself in a few months if you don't. I used Southdown Sand and Caribsea Sugar Sized Sand in my tanks, I put enough in for a 4" bed. I then added my liverock and let the tank cycle, then when the cycle was done, I bought snails and detritivore kits to keep the sand turned over and alive. I also added some sand from other reefers tanks to innoculate it with critters. Then I let the LR and DSB do the work and use a decent skimmer to take care of the rest. A refugium is now connected to my tank for further filtration, I think it was the best thing I added to my tank, besides the DSB. Do a search on DSB and see what a lot of people have done with success.

Nanook

[DgenR8]

You ask a lot of questions! In the future, if you ask them on seperate threads, you might get better results. Let's see what I can help you with here.
First, I want to hit on the Penguin. I also have one that I use on my reef, but, I took out the filter cartridges. Get rid of 'em, they will only contribute to a problem controlling nitrates. I also removed the bio-wheels, they too will cause problems with nitrate AND they RUST! The paper wheel rotates on a metal shaft that will rust and add poison to your system.

I can't comment on the skimmer either way. I know I have heard of them, but I don't remember what I heard.

Be careful with that home made overflow. Run a test power failure occasionally to be sure you won't lose syphon, and when the power returns, overflow the tank. Actually, I'm not too sure I understand what your "overflow" is doing, you mention that you don't have a sump :confused:

A sump is a great idea, I'd say YES, you should have one. The bigger the better. A canister is okay if you want more circulation, but take everything out of it or you'll experience those nitrate problems again.

On to your livestock, you have a 46 gal tank with 4 fish. You gotta be more specific here. What kind of fish are you keeping?? What kind of crabs are we talkin' about here? and what type of coral have you got in there?? You could be anywhere from light load to overstocked, depending on species.

Bro, Do yourself a big favor and get rid of the C.C. now, before you stock the tank any further. Syphon it out and Put in a DSB (Deep Sand Bed) around 4-5" seems to be popular opinion, mine is closer to 6" in most areas, but as shallow as 2" in some spots because that's how my tomatoe clown wants it, and no matter how hard I try, it's NOT gonna change! I added my DSB over the C.C. that I was too lazy to remove. I took out LOTS of it, but once it was down to about 1 1/2" I put the sand right over it. Doesn't seem to be causing any problems, I haven't had any come to the top of the sand bed and look ugly or anything like that.

If you have 20# of LR, and are planning on adding another 40#, make sure YOU cure that rock first, don't believe that because you order "cured rock" that you can add that much to a system that size without throwing the whole system back into a cycle.

You are looking at making some MAJOR changes in your system. If you are going to do it all at once, it will be like starting from the beginning. You really should consider alternate living arrangements for your livestock untill things settle down with all these changes.

[tyoberg]

A quick comment on the sump idea: if you can, then go ahead and put in a sump. It's not required, but it's nice to have.

The only reason I do not have one is temperature. My tank warms up when the weather gets hot and I feel that a return pump that a sump would require would only aggrevate those summer months.

Ty

[SirDudeness]

Well everyone,it looks like you talked me into a DSB,
should I remove all of my CC and replace with sand ??
or can I do like DgenR8 and put the DSB over my CC ??
maybe I can put the CC into my sump......?
DgenR8
You have some good points about the bio-wheel,it almost seems not worth having at all,do'nt ya think ?
About my live stock I have a maroon clown,coral beauty and 2 damsels,and for the one coral a suncoral.
on my live rock I'm thinking of replacing,not adding to,all I really need is another 20pounds,but if I have to order it I'm having to order at least 40pounds anyway.
thanks everyone-James:beer:

[SirDudeness]

DgenR8
about my so-called overflow,my RedSea skimmer has a stem that goes about 6" into the tank,so it would'nt skim the crap off the top of the water,so what I did is get a small 1 gt. rubbermaid container,cut the top off of it and carved a v notch at the top,stuck a couple suction cups on it and ran the skimmer stem down the container,so now the skimmer sucks the water out of the container not the tank,the water over flows into the container............ ,I think you get the idea now....maybe,the idea came to me one night when I was talking to Cpt.Morgan if you know what I mean,I'm not all that crazy about how it looks,but hay-it works like a champ-later Dude,James :smokin:

[DgenR8]

James,
Capt'n Morgan is a good friend of mine too! Yes, I do understand the overflow you set up now, not a bad idea at all, and no syphon to lose!
As for the C.C. in your tank, it does probably house some beneficial critters, but by adding4 or 5 inches of sand on top, most would probably suffocate, unless you added the sand slowly, over a week or two giving them a chance to migrate up. There were a few people here that told me to remove ALL the C.C. before adding sand, but I left some behind and covered it up without problems.
Putting the C.C. in your sump, I think would be a waste of space. I'd put another DSB in there instead.
Maroon clown is okay. I've never had a coral beauty, don't know enough about them to say good or bad. Damsels, well, you will probably want to get them out. They are really mean little fish and most people find them to be a problem in their reef. I know some people will argue with me here, but I think most will agree.
If you have live rock that for any reason won't fit in your tank, throw it in your sump! L/R is the backbone of your filtration, seeds your DSB and you can never have too much.
Oh yeah, the bio-wheels, very good for fresh water, NOT good for a reef.

[SirDudeness]

Larry
A bio-wheel is NOT good for a reef :confused: ,Nanook said something about Southdown sand,what is to stop me from walking into a Lows store and buying playsand ??????
is sand........sand ??
Later Dude-James :beer:

[DgenR8]

James,
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from going to Lowes and buying playsand. The problem you will likely have with that sand if you put it in a Reef, is that the grain size probably won't be right and your DSB will be much less effective than mine. The critters we want for natural filtration thrive in very fine sand and Southdown has that size we're looking for, it is also Calcium based and many other "playsands" are silicate based. So, No, sand is not always sand.
I think I was pretty clear about why I don't think the bio-wheel is good for a reef. I'm not sure I understand the corrolation between bio-wheels and sand though.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: originally said by ME

I also removed the bio-wheels, they too will cause problems with nitrate AND they RUST! The paper wheel rotates on a metal shaft that will rust and add poison to your system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You see, I like the bio-wheels for fresh water, and still use them on my Discus' tank. Salt water is Much more corrosive than fresh and causes rust on parts that don't rust in fresh water, to rust in salt water. Nitrate is also a much smaller problem in a fish only system as fish handle this "poison" much better than corals do.
Trying to adapt methods of fresh water fish keeping to salt water Reef keeping will give you nothing but headaches, they are two completely different entities, always do yourself a favor and treat them as such.

[tyoberg]

Dr Ron has written a few articles about sand beds-look in the Articles section here at reefcentral under Dr Ron. He specifically addresses what size grains are desirable.

Ty

[Stringer]

Tyoberg

I like your description of a modified berlin system and it certainly sound cost effective so I have a question for you.

We see, on here, so many beautiful tanks and we also see the sumps, the bio balls, etc. Why are so many people using so much more? It's so confusing sometimes.

And another thing, if DSB's are so good then why do we see so much cyano in the beds?

[Aquamans Reef]

If your going with a reef I would recommend the berlin method (LS and LR with a protein skimmer) if its FO you might want to use a wet/dry with a protein skimmer. HTH's Joe

[SirDudeness]

What's up Larry???
Ya you was very clear on the bio-wheel thing,I was more shocked about it than anything else,I went digging for an old Aquarium Fish magazine(Aug.2001-special filtration issue),and I must say that you hit it on the head......the mag. went on to say that biological filtration is good for the nitrification cycle,but one of the side effects of this filtration system is nitrate accumulating over time,it also went on to say"Many hobbyists prefer to perform frequent water changes to reduse nitrate,or utilize natural regions of denitrification that can occur in live rock and deep sand beds.",so it looks like I'll pull that filter off my tank,unless you think I should just pull the wheels off,keep it in place for the media,maybe some bio-balls.....
Later-James
:beer:

[DC321]

Modified Berlin with a skimmer and sump. Do yourself a favor and do it right the first time....do not get cheap.

Save money but do not be cheap.

[DgenR8]

James,
One of the important factors in filtration is current and surface aggitation. The movement of water on the surface allows oxygen in and nitrogen out. I kept my penguin, but removed all filter media and, of course, the bio-wheels. It moves the water around and gives a good location for adding things like B-IONIC and carbon on occasion. If you have the filter, use it for that, just keep the pads out. I also change out 20 gals a week like clockwork and run a 40 gal. refugium. Nitrate has always been a problem for me even though I removed the bio-balls AND wheels from my system.
When I first started, the LFS sold me on an AMIRACLE trickle filter with bio-balls. Now, that filter serves as a $300.00 sump!
Doing it right from the beginning is MUCH less costly than doing it wrong and then fixing mistakes. Believe me, I know from experience.
I do still use a filter pad in my Amiracle, but I change it, NOT wash it out, but change it every week when I change water. I am moving toward NO filter pad, even in the "sump", but haven't gotten there yet. I prefer to make my changes slowly.

[wvpepsi2001]

Hello Dude,
I started with crushed coral and over time I had a problem with red algae. I partitioned the tank off ( in 1 foot section) using a piece of plexiglass and removed the cc. I added the sand and placed a few balls of cc (made with nylon hose) in the sand. I still had the cc in the other side of the f the partition. I placed the rest of the cc that I removed in a plastic collander on top of the newly added sand so the critters could climb out. It took a while but it was worth it because I did not upset the cycle or bioload. My fish remained in the tank and did ok. It took about 3 days for the sand to settle and the water to clear up but I added extra filters. I did this four times in a 75 G tank and it took approx. 6 weeks. I am so glad that I did it this way and did not have to recycle. I then added a new detritivore kit from IPSF (9 for $99.) with mud and live sand activator. I too use a Marineland 400 with biowheel. I am putting in a sump and refugium this next week. I did not know about the biowheel and the rust but now that I think about it, it does make sense. I will remove the wheel tonight. I am always learning with this hobby. :-)
HTH
pepsi

[SirDudeness]

Well Larry,that's not a bad idea,I'll do that,however I do have small powerheads in my tank,three at the top that face each other and run24-7 ,2 others about mid-high on timers so when one is on the other is off,2 hour rotation +/-.
I hope to have my sump up and running in a few weeks,on my water change I do about 4 gal. a week every Sunday and my Nitrate is at 0,I don't really think I'll have a hard time adding my sand cause my tank at this time,for the most part of is fish only and live rock,I'll check to see if my LFS has that sand,if not I'll get it off the web.
Thanks again everyone-James

[SirDudeness]

I have one more thing on this,at what point in time would you find the need to use a carbon media ?
and on my bio-wheel,it is all plastic,should I keep them in place ?
thanks-James

[Angel*Fish]

I have had an Emperor double biowheel on my 30 g for 5 years this November... my nitrates are usually 0 to trace... once they crept up to 5...

Yes, I have noticed some rust on the metal pins -- didn't know this was a huge prob:eek2:

Can my protein skimmer pick up the offending substance or is my tank subject to crash suddenly or what ????????

SirDudeness - sorry to jump - I guess I'm expecting a catastrophe:(

[DgenR8]

I don't know exactly what rust is capable of doing to your system, or how much of it is necessary to do harm, I opened up one of my bio wheels after reading here that they rust, (you actually have to cut it open) and the entire shaft that the wheel spins on was rusted.
Again, I don't know if it could cause a crash or system meltdown, but I didn't want to find out.
As far as I know, rust is bad, and I don't want ANY in my system.

[wvpepsi2001]

I took one of my biowheels apart and there was no rust on it anywhere. It has been on my saltwater tank for almost 4 years. I will replace them this weekend when I buy new filters. If I get this many years and no rust, I will continue to use it along with my sump and refugium. I will just be more alert and replace the biowheels more often.:D
Pepsi

[Angel*Fish]

wvpepsi2001, If there's nothing wrong with you biowheels is it a good idea to replace them? You didn't include other info about your tank (LR,DSB,skimmer,etc) But it wouldn't hurt to ask someone who knows if this could cause your tank to recycle...

[absolutc]

There seems to be some confusion about the bio-wheel.

I have had many freshwater tanks up for many years. The purpose of the bio-wheel is that similar to a DSB. It removes nitrates and oxygenates the water. As the water runs over it and it turns and hits the air, it releases gases and other items and takes in oxygen. It also creates and establishes a bacteria bed on the webbing. I would come to the conclusion that is also good for reef systems because in theory you want good oxygenated water, no nitrates, good bacteria establishment and all that great stuff. I do agree with removing the filter cartadges. They in time could be a problem. As for the rust.. I do not see it to be a problem. How many ships have sunk in the ocean and are rusting not to mention that reefs are thriving on/near and around them. Then again, we work in a smaller scale, and yes things might have a different impact.

For those of you that replace your bio-wheels every few months, you might as well just remove them. Stop wasting your money. They are meant to stay on the system indefinently. Your throwing away good bacteria. Unless the wheel is DAMAGED, RIPPED, CRUSHED or physical messed up.. there is no need to replace it. Yes it may start to slow down, but that is good :)

JMO.

[wvpepsi2001]

Hello Mantis,
My tank is a 75 g that was set up with the live rock and cc from a 35 g. The 35 was started in Feb. 1999 and later everything was put into a 30 g when the cat knocked over a ladder and broke the 35. The 75 g was set up Nov. of last year. It had a 3 inch bed of cc but changed it to a 4" deep sand bed two months ago. I have a protein skimmer and am in the process of putting in the sump and refugium now. I have two HOB filters right now a whisper w/o bio wheel and the Marineland 400 with biowheels. I have approx. 80 lbs LR in this tank. I plan on putting the 30 Lb or more of LR (from the 30 g tank) in the sump and refugium. I am setting the 30 g up as a seahorse tank ( this will take a while for everything to come together) and want good quality live rock.
I have pods living in my filters everytime I change them, so everything is doing ok. I just want to change the biowheels before they start to rust to be on the safe side. I have started putting low light corals (softies) in my tank and do not want to take any chances. It might be a good idea to put the new wheels in the sump for a week to make sure everything does not have to recycle. What do you think?
pepsi

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by absolutc
There seems to be some confusion about the bio-wheel.

I have had many freshwater tanks up for many years. The purpose of the bio-wheel is that similar to a DSB. It removes nitrates and oxygenates the water. As the water runs over it and it turns and hits the air, it releases gases and other items and takes in oxygen. It also creates and establishes a bacteria bed on the webbing. I would come to the conclusion that is also good for reef systems because in theory you want good oxygenated water, no nitrates, good bacteria establishment and all that great stuff.
JMO.


Absoloutc,
The bacteria that grows on a bio wheel is beneficial, just as beneficial as the bacteria that grows on bio balls. This is aerobic bacteria. It is very effective at converting NITRITE to NITRATE, but will then leave you high and dry with all that NITRATE "all revved up with no place to go" To convert that NITRATE, you need ANaerobic bacteria, the type that lives in the oxygen free zone at the bottom of your DSB.
NITRATE is not a big problem if you keep fresh water fish or even salt water fish, corals, on the other hand, are much more sensative and hence the problem with bio wheels, balls, etc...

[SirDudeness]

Hello everyone
I have a 46gal tank that I need to put in a DSB,I have a chance to get my hands on all the sand I need,it is a white gypsum base sand,would this sand be ok for a new reef tank ??????
I can get this sand from an old ocean bed in New Mexico-White Sands ......any ideas on this,or should I go another way ??
Thanks -James :beer: