Our very Green (and wavy!) Greenhouse

[MaryHM]

Hey Anthony- Mary Middlebrook with Marine Specialties International (and SeaCrop) here.

We just got our greenhouse up and running- 800 sq. ft with about 2000 gallons. We are overrun by green and brown long wavy algae at the moment, to the point where I don't even want to put any frags in there yet. We are using natural seawater, so I'm sure we're pumping quite a few nutrients in. (Only greenhouse I know that will be using NSW and natural sunlight to prop on a commercial level on the west coast). Anyhow, what can we do to reduce it? We currently have over a thousand astreas/trochus and about 100 blue globe urchins and they can't keep up. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Wildcatt88]

If you don't mind me asking, are you doing anything for nutriend export? I am curious about your operation, it sounds like a pretty awesome undertaking.

One reason I am curious is that I have a similar problem in my 400, and while not the same in many ways, there are similarities to be sure.

My assumption is that without taking the nutrients out of the water, just like a captive aquarium, algae eaters are simply a helpand not a solution. I am not saying they aren't needed, they are. I also like the idea of NSW. Bad thing is, you may not know what you're getting...

Are you testing for the normal nutrients that cause us problems? Have you gone a step further to see that your source is not an area that is any way contaminated, by having the waters tested in labs? Running anything in the way of a skimming device? Are you running any scrubbers, vegetation, cryptic, sand beds, LR or filter feeding inverts?

HTH, if not with a fix, maybe with more information to allow us to better help you...

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Mary

very good to hear from you dear :)

John is spot-on correct... nuisance algae issue is entirely about nutrient export. And the grazers are only treating the symptom and not the problem. Even if they ate all of the algae, if their fecal pellets were not adequately exported, they will simply dissolve/return to the system and feed the next bloo//cycle of algae.

The real key here is identifying where the nutrients are coming from... and then focussing on managing them.

Very aggressive protein skimming is likely one of the most effective and inexpensive solutions for you here.

And I must admit that I feel your choice of using NSW is a very bad long term choice. My opinions on the matter are well detailed in BOCP1 and a bit online like at wetwebmedia.com. The bottom line though is that beyond nutrients, purity and contamination issues (you live on a very crowded California coast with run-off far out to sea)... there is simply the issue of seasonal variations in mineral content. Bottom line is that collected NSW is inconsistent and unreliable. FWIW

kindly,

Anthony

[MaryHM]

We do have a very large commercial skimmer on the system. There are also sand beds (old ones that were running on our fish system for a few years) and over a thousand pounds of live rock (again, old stuff from the fish system, so it's well cured).

Concerning the NSW, it's the same water we use in our coral and fish systems and have for the past 4 years. We get coral growth in the other system without even trying and without any really decent lighting. We get algae growth in that system as well, but nothing like what we're getting in the greenhouse. My husband wants to set up one tank with macroalgaes to try to suck up some of the nutrients. What are the best species for this?

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by MaryHM
We do have a very large commercial skimmer on the system. There are also sand beds (old ones that were running on our fish system for a few years) and over a thousand pounds of live rock (again, old stuff from the fish system, so it's well cured).

Pardon for jumping in ... but I think here lies the answer.

Yes, the rock/sand is wonderfully cured - but also probably chock full of detritus/nutrients. Some think different about sand beds - but at some point IMO you're going to have a heck of a lot of crud trapped down there, perfect algae food.

Given they were fish-systems before, I'd think that while export was taken care of, not at the level that high-light coral growing conditions would not trigger nutrient issues IMO. Likely full of life, but likely full of lots of poop too.

Rock-wise - there has been fair amount of talk around about `cooking' rock - using clean clean water, debris removal, and running the rock in complete darkness for a few months to allow bacteria to work a lot of the crud in the rocks out. I've been amazed at consistent debris coming out of rocks I've done this with for months [bottom covered with debris that I remove every water change]. For those of us in the midwest, or who take in somewhat unhealthy rock for rehab - this method IMO/IME yields rock that while not coralline covered is remarkably `clean' looking [clean of crud, algae, etc ... not pods as the creepie crawlies on my arm while handling the rock will attest].

Just one unasked for opinion - but when I read `re-used sand bed, old rock' and heard your talk about nutrient aka algae issues - it came to mind.

Good luck, always nice to see you around Mary :)

[MaryHM]

This rock and sand probably does have "poop" in it even though fish weren't in the tanks were the rock/sand was. It was in a 2500 gallon sump that was lit by natural sunlight. We did have algae growth in that sump as well, however not to the extent we do in the greenhouse. I just want to get my frags in there!! WAAAAA!!!! :P Now I remember why I don't have any personal tanks- what a PITA dealing with these sorts of things! If it was in my house, I would have already taken a sledgehammer to it. ;)

[Anthony Calfo]

for best/better macroalgae here... in your case I suspect we should opt for something effective and saleable/tradeable. If so... (hmmm... and even if not :D)... Gracilaria and Chaetomorpha get my votes hands down. Both needing rather strong water flow to keep them tumbling ideally (less light needed then overall).

Gracilaria needs brghter light indeed (adequate when tips seem to tinge orange/yellow... inadequate when colonies are deep maroon... too dim).

Chaetomorpha is rather easier, more stable and a slightly better vehicle for nutrient export... but not really edible by many fishes.

I like/keep both plus Ochtodes and a few odd Caulerpas (seperare tanks from coral with Caulerpas though... too noxious).

kindly,

Anthony

[Wildcatt88]

Anthony, can you let us in on how we find these species and others, such as the sea greasses you refer to in your Coral Prop book? I am interested in trying them, for the same reasons Mary needs them, and we all do actually...

[Anthony Calfo]

ah, yes... a few of our fav hobby suppliers like BillsReef (an RC member), InlandAquatics.com, and ISPF.com can supply wonderful macros and true vascular plants like the above-named species and more.

If you can't get what you want from these chaps, do give me a holler... at least I can point you to a hobby club regionally that may be able to trade with you.

Anthony :)

[MaryHM]

We've actually aquacultured gracillaria outside in huge open pools. It can be pretty touchy if you're not careful, and you definitely have to keep it tumbling. I'd be interested in the Chaetomorpha if I can find a source to get it in bulk. We have to be careful with Caulerpa here in Cali, since most of the normal aquaria species are illegal.

[MaryHM]

Just talked to Morgan Lidster over at Inland- he's going to try to get me 20lbs of Chaetomorpha. What would the ideal amount be for a 2000 gallon system?

[Anthony Calfo]

ah, yes... true.

Hmmm... I'm not sure of "bulk" chaetomorpha... but you do have a good bit of it in your own local hobby clubs... and it grows like a weed (indeed why it is a wonderful nutrient export mechanism).

Do hot up MASLAC in Los Angeles... my friend and crew member (WWM) Scott Fellman is one of several folks there that generously donates it monthly. I recall SDMAS (San Diego) and SCMAS (SoCal) also keeping good supplies of it.

[Anthony Calfo]

doh... crossed paths/post :)

Morg's a great guy... fantastic chap :) (Inland Aquatics)

As to the amount to start with... it depends on how patient you want to be :D

I'm an American... not patient at all :p I'd buy more and not have to wait to add coral as long...heehee.

It not that big of a deal though. It does grow fast (very at times).

My advice to you (Mary) would be to order enough from Morg to exploit the freight minimum. It may be well worth it for you to do that as you'll be paying the same freight on up to X lbs (100lbs if by Domestic air with many airlines) regardless of how close to that minimum you are. At the very least you can resell it.

Morg has lots of goodies/macros usually... perhaps you can expand the order.

best of luck,

Anth-

[MiddletonMark]

What do you mean by bulk Mary?

The way mine grows you could have a basketball sized portion almost every month. Though that's probably chickenscratch at the scale you work at ... I'm sure you could find a few people to give you monthly donations until you're up to snuff.

Best of all, seems like a lot have had great luck just sending it moist via priority mail. 2# of chaeto is a lot :)

[MiddletonMark]

Well, maybe 2# isn't a lot for you.

Slow posting today :eek1:

[MaryHM]

Thanks for all the help. I'll see if Morgan can get me 20lbs and if not I'll contact MASLAC. Next time you're out this direction, you're officially invited to stop by and see the greenhouse, Anthony. Price of admission? 1 lb of Chaetomorpha. ;)

[Adam]

Mary and Anthony,

PMFJI, but my experience with re-using sand substrates has been abysmal. Despite all claims, and aside from all arguments of the merits of using sand beds, they do accumulate alot of nutrients (certainly a combo of random "schtuff" as well as that which has been assimilated into living organisms).

Moving the sand not only releases the "schtuff", but it kills alot of the fauna. Without speculating on the mechanisms, recovering the proper function of the sand after such a disturbance is a serious challenge.

I battled the same kind of problems you are describing in a 225 gallon reef tank for almost two years before catching up. This system was running a skimmer that by most hobbyists standards would have been rated for 500+ gallons. I performed 25% water changes monthly and was very cautious about nutrient input. Caulerpa and later Chetomorpha were used for nutrient export.

After that experince, I vowed never to move a sand be again (Except for a small portion of the upper 1" or so to "seed" the new bed with critters).

Based on what you have shared, I would strongly consider removing all of the sand substrate and replacing it with new clean sand. You will of course have to consider both the immediate cost of this as well as the delay it will create for your operation against the costs of an ongoing battle with this problem and the likely reduced growth rates and increased animal mortality that will result.

Best regards from Pittsburgh!

Adam

[MaryHM]

Adam,

Thanks for the info. This is actually the second time I've moved a sand bed. The first was when we moved our entire warehouse to a new facility over 4 years ago. We moved almost 2 tons of sand bed with no problems. An update on the greenhouse- the algae seems to have come under control by itself. I was never able to find any large quantities of chaetomorpha. The only thing that has changed is that we have our temperature completely under control now and it doesn't get above 81 during the day (it had been getting up to 85). We did a major cleaning a few weeks ago, removed all of the algae, and it hasn't come back. Knock on wood!! I actually have pics of the greenhouse up at http://www.seacrop.com if you want to check it out.

[rick rottet]

Very cool

[jango]

that surge setup is awesome...