I'm losing all my fish.

[Hemmie]

Hi everyone, guess I just need to vent. I'm discouraged to the point of giving up and going back to my Cichlids.

I've been up and running about 2 months. I have quite a few pieces of L/R (no idea of the poundage) 80 pounds of L/S, a detrivore kit from an online place (not one sign of life yet..its been in a week) . The tank is a 55 gallon with a Prizm and an AquaClear, 3 power heads and an airstone I added when my problems began. I recently added a carbon insert to try and help with my problems. I also have a few snails.

I guess it's Ich, my Clowns are both plastered, but my Butterfly is deathly ill. She's mottled, spotted, her fins are frayed and shot with blood. She tries so hard to eat, but she gasps for air and stays at the bottom. This all happened within 2 days. I know its hopeless and I refuse to stress her further by chasing her around the tank to get her into quarantine. The only other fish I had was a Blennie, and he died yesterday. One day he was fine, the next day he had a film over one eye and the next day he was dead. I can only assume my tank is loaded with disease and that adding any new fish is out of the question. It seems like I have more than one problem attacking these fish. I have had no new additions within the last few weeks, and nothing I can put my finger on as to the cause of this disaster.

My nitrites are zero, my ammonia is zero and my nitrates are barely detectable on the chart. Ive done weekly 10% water changes since my tank cycled. My salinity is low...maybe 1.023, (Ive been trying to raise it slowly. My temp is 80-81 degrees.

After these fish die...what do I do? The parasite or disease will still be in the tank and I cant treat it without losing my rock, sand and snails, etc.

Watching this beautiful Butterfly Fish is making me ill, I feel that I'm in way over my head, and that these fish are paying the price for my lack of knowledge.
I dont know whether to try again, or even *how* to try again.

Thanks for listening..

[newbie1]

Sorry to hear that, did you try the garlic treatment I hear people talking about?
Hope someone can help you.:(

[Hemmie]

I was going to try the garlic tomorrow. I think its too late, but we'll see. This sure is discouraging, but thanks for the answer to my post!

[Clyde]

a few points to ponder and I would like to know

2 month tank, ytour system might not be 100 percent estabalished - just to point out maybe you're putting too much in.

anyway - all from same dealer ?

what is your acclimation method ?

any agression vs fish ? frayed fins sounds like someone nipping it.

i've read airstones are a bit of a problem right in a tank, bubbles too fine - I could be wrong here.

IF your fish die, it could be becuase your LFS does not have healthy fish to start with, or your acclimation is not proper - thers a few reasons it could be, once your fish is void of fish for a few months, most parasites will go away, as no host to latch on and feed and they themselves will die.

do post, do you have any inverts ?? (sea apples, cukes etc?)

[JohnL]

Sorry to hear about your situation. Unfortunately, the only good solution would be to setup a hospital tank using the appropriate treatment for the condition.

If you like, I can move this thread to our Disease treatment forum so that you can quickly ID the disease and take action.

Let me know.

[Clyde]

BTW its helpful to fill out the info - ie: where you're from, your hobbies etc etc

they ARE clues sometimes - maybe a hobby you carry fumes in house, onyour hands are harmful to your fish

your area where you're frome could lead you to a reef club invite, or an email from a fellow reefer in your area that MAY come over and help you personally - or refer you to a better LFS to purchase your specimins etc etc

[Skipper]

Hey Hemmie.

Sorry to hear of your problems. I have solicited some other folks to take a look at this thread and see if they have some information that may be helpful. Often there are problems that develop that have a simple solution once the cause is discovered. I have a sneaking suspicion that it may not just be a disease overtaking your fish....something else may be causing the disease that we need to find first.

[Reef Junkie]

Hemmie,

I feel for you brother. It can be frustrating, but like skip mentioned, it sounds like disease city. Parasites are probably melting your fishs scales and gills.
Your tank is probably riddled with parasites at this point. There is still hope though. Without medication.

First, give the fish a good 15 minute freshwater dip. Making sure the pH and temperature are the same as the tanks water. That will cause most of the parasites to drop off the fish.
Second, drop the salinity in your tank. You can bring it down to 1.010. That will cause the parasites to go into a sort of suspended state. Where they will not reattach to the fish. The problem is that once you up the salinity, they will reactivate and go after the fish again. You can either try and vacuum around your substrate (sand bed) to try and pull the parasites out. You cannot use copper in a tank with a living substrate though. It will kill your invertebrates and wreak more havoc on your system.
chances are that once most of the parasites have dropped off the fish, the fish will make a recovery. I hope this helps.
Good luck.

Billy

[Hemmie]

Sure, Id be happy to have you move the thread. Thanks.

My butterfly died last night. Ive been up half the night waiting..I knew she was going to go, and I wanted her out of the tank so she didnt foul anything and make things worse. The clowns seem active yet peppered. I did notice some white dots on the glass...about the same size as the Ich. I did a water change yesterday and there they were. They dont move.

The Fish are all from the same store , but Ive used this place for years with my Freshwater, I even used her water and filter media etc to cycle. I've always known her fish to be healthy. As a matter of fact, my husband has a Goldfish tank with 3 of the original Orandas, from her store, 10 years old! (not to say that where SHE gets her stuff may be bad) She hasnt had the marine fish all that long, maybe a year or so, but I help her clean tanks every Sunday, and she is really dedicated.

Im from NY..small town near Buffalo (very rural)and would love to know about any LFS close by. Hobbies (many) but the fumes? I cant think of anything EXCEPT that I use Windex to clean the glass. (possible?) I use gloves dedicated to the tank when I do anything. My husband is a Veterinarian, dairy cows, a lot of "stuff" on his hands etc, but he never goes near this tank. Odd though, he did just lose 2 Orandas...similar symptoms (frayed fins, blood shot, no Ich though). His fish are OLD though, some as old as 10 years. His tank has been trouble free for years. Literally. I am having trouble getting his tank straightened out too. Could this be related? I dont use gloves in his tank. I have 2 separate Pythons for siphoning and am pretty successful with the freshwater stuff...or used to be.

The airstone. I put it in to break up the surface water, I thought it would help.

Inverts ...just my Detrivore kit, one Sally Lightfoot that I cant catch to get out, a few snails. I had about 50 Nassarius snails but they seem to be either missing or dying too. I have 2 Feather Dusters (inverts?) that popped out of my L/R a week or so ago, and they seem fine. Theres a weird looking snail (black shell, yellow eyes) that came with my detrivore kit. Looks like a big black ladybug.

I'll try the dip on the Clowns but how would I get the Ph the same?

No aggression in the tank unless the Sally is doing something I havent seen. Its awfully big and Im trying to get it OUT! Do you think it's important enough that I start moving rock and stuff to remove her? Im telling you, this crab is about half the size of my hand and nasty looking but Ive only seen her on the rocks. I didnt know they grew that big so fast. Now that you mentioned the aggression...I am wondering about her. Its so big.

Anyways..early morning ramblings here. Odd how you can lose sleep over fish. Thank you everyone for your concern, I really appreciate it.

[Hemmie]

Just an update..and just when you think it cant get worse..............

Tank lights are on....the water is full of white dots...they look like bubbles, but arent. They look like sand (?) maybe, but I dont think so. And I also have more of "them" stuck to the glass. The skimmer isnt putting out any bubbles, so it isnt that. Besides, Ive never seen the tank with all this stuff blowing around.


Butterfly is dead, Percs are still active yet peppered. I did a water change yesterday, 10 gallons.

I checked my water a minute ago and I now have NitrITES. Just a titch..just a slight pink tinge to the test water. Ammo is still zero, I havent checked the Nitrates.

[swhedbee]

Stray voltage?

You have a lot of electric devices in the tank, and saltwater is highly conductive. One of the powerheads, etc. may be leaking voltage into the tank.

I just read an article on Page 9 of the MASNA newsletter http://www.masna.org/ms/fall2001.pdf about grounding probes. It describes symptoms that are very similar: water parameters all look OK but all the fish are sick. That article will tell you what to do.

Good luck,

-Sam

[Hemmie]

Thanks Sam,
Youve reminded me of something Ive been going to do and I'm going to order one right now. We redid the elec outlets to GFCI, but I never did get around to getting the ground probe.

I just tore the damn tank apart and got the Sally out. I imagine now my Detrivore kit is toast, I really made a mess.

Whats next? (shes afraid to ask)

[Hemmie]

I guess we can close this now, my options are pretty clear. Q the Percs and let the tank sit for 6 weeks. A copy of my reply to Bill on the Disease forum is pasted here...thanks everyone and maybe another beginner will learn something from my mistakes. It sure is discouraging, especially after you think you've read and studied enough to make a *few* intelligent decisions. I still don't know what started all of this, but the outcome has been disastrous. Good luck to all of you!


I did get "sally" out and made a mess doing it. Im sure its added to the probs but it cant get much worse at this point.

The Percs will be in Quarantine tonight and Ill let everything rest for 6 weeks then re evaluate and see if this is what I really want. I hate to give up, but its been anything *but* relaxing:smokin:

I didnt realize the Butterfly was so delicate. I had read in Fenners "Marine Aquarist" that this particular fish was quite hardy (long fin bannerfish, Heniochus Acuminatus) so I did do my research, but not enough apparently.
I feel bad, it was a beautiful fish.

Thank you everyone for everything. I really need to rethink this whole thing and make sure I have "the right stuff". I guess I'll have 6 weeks to ponder.;)

[Clyde]

btw, a red flag went up, a bit surprised anyone else didnt see it.

Windex onthe glass of the tank ? they contain ammonia.

anyway, it seems you're on track again - take it a bit slower, see how it goes - then build from there.

I also should ask - is this a tank new or old ? has the tank been medicated before ? etc

[mixalis]

Regarding Windex use in your tank. Bad, bad bad. Contains ammonia. Use plain water and a goodly dollop of plain white vinegar. Does the job just as well. Dry with a piece of newsprint for a streak-free sparkle! :)

Good luck, Hemmie. I have a just purchased clown that has developed ich, so I'm going to be quarantining and medicating also.

Oh! Do you use additives for Calcium/Alkalinity. I was wondering if the white stuff might not be calcium precipitate?

[fishymissy]

Hemmie,

DO NOT GIVE UP

this is a common problem with people who have kept freshwater fish for a long time. You would think that your experience would help you, hmmmm? Well, it actually seems to make it worse! What you would have been able to do to a new freshwater tank with outstanding results, will end up in a saltwater mess!!! Been there, done that! You simply have to learn to rethink what you're doing.
Stray voltage, not a big problem with fresh, but a huge problem in salt.
Airstones, what's the fuss in fresh, but in salt, it produces salt creep (which is messy to deal with and adds to the stray voltage problem)
The little white dots on the glass are not ich, they can be: small sea squirts, newly hatched copepods, part of the plankton life forms, etc....usually your snails will eat these.
Ammonia is a big no no for fresh or salt.
Treat your clowns in a seperate tank and then do the waiting game.
When you feel it's safe to add more fish, make sure that you pick very hardy fish until you feel comfortable with what you are doing. Royal grammas are good, firefish, green chromis......
Make sure that you add fish in the correct order and only after they have been QT'd.
Add more snails.
Get some featherduster worms. Some people believe that they will filter out and eat the ich parasite when it is in it's swimming stage. I can't say that they do for sure, but it certainly can't hurt and they don't require special lighting. (And they look cool too)
But most of all.....

DO NOT GIVE UP

It took my tank almost 8 months before things "balanced". During this time I had a bout with ich (lost an elibi angel to it), red slime algae, green algae, a nudibranch invasion which wiped out a Xenia colony, a mantis shrimp.....the thing is, I am glad that I did not give up. The tank is great and the fish are superb. I have also recently started up another tank, this one with a lionfish in it. :hmm1: of course, maybe you shouldn't listen to me, I might be crazy!!

[OodleyBoodely]

Hemmie, my condolences. I've lost a tankful recently, so I know how it feels. For future additions, the only way to avoid adding a disease to your tank is to properly quarantine your new purchases first, and treat with a parasite remedy. Don't do like I did and assume you know enough to tell a healthy fish and bypass the quarantine period. One thing I have not learned very well in this hobby yet, is patience, and, the result has been dead fish.

Follow through on the quarantine program-medicate then follow up with 2-3 week observation period before adding any new fish to your established system. Any survivors in your main tank that appear healthy now, may still be carriers. Some fish are more resistant to parasites, but will still harbor some that can become a full blown epidemic under the right (stressfull) conditions. Therefor, it is important to pull all the fish from your main tank to a quarantine tank for a full round of treatment. This is also important because you need to remove the fish from the main tank long enough for the parasites in the tank to hatch and die for lack of a fish host.

I'm not going to go into setup of a Q-tank, there are plenty of excellant posts already on RC from far more expert fish keepers than me. I will add, however, that quarantine should not be replaced with garlic treatment only. As promising as garlic is in the war against ick, it is not a cure all, and may not even be effective against all ectoparasites that you may run against in the hobby. Garlic is probably best used as a preventative and supplement to boost immunity during and after quarantine.

Please don't give up on the hobby, yet! You've learned too much already to do that-I know-you can't go through an ick episode like yours without learning reams about the hobby! Just go slow and methodically and have patience. Good luck.

[waterlily]

I really do not think the Windex is causing the problem. I've been using window cleaner on my tank for a year now and although I have had a few fish deaths, I have never had my entire tank go bad or had an epidemic. Clearly there is some disease in your tank. You might want to try a freshwater methylene blue dip on either your diseased fish or perhaps on any new fish you put in there once everything calms down. It's described in "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner on page 153. Basically you get some fresh water, adjust the temperature to 75 degrees F, and buffer the pH to about 8.0 with baking soda. Add methylene blue, a few drops per liter of water. You want the water to be a deep royal blue. Put your fish in and leave it in for a few seconds to a few minutes depending how the fish is responding. Watch the fish closely and take the fish out if it shows extreme stress. Rinse the fish in an intermediate system-water-only dip before placing in quarantine or the main tank. The author claims that this is useful against ich, skin and gill flukes, and most other external parasites and infectious diseases.

[fishymissy]

While it is true that windex will not cause ich, what it will do is put ammonia into the air that the tank will pick up causing an ammonia spike in your tank. Again, not a thing to be doing around any aquarium!

[SciGuy2]

The inconsequential very slight overspray of Windex in our tanks simply shouldn't be a concern. Here's why:

Given:
*Windex is 0.5% Ammonium Hydroxide (I checked)
*1 spray from Windex is Approx 1 mg (it's actually a bit less, I measured)
*It takes 5 sprays to clean the outside of my tank ( It really takes me 3)
*A max. of 10% of the Windex Overspray gets inside of the tank (I bet I get almost none really in there)
*I'm cleaning the outside of my 50 gal system

Then:
*Grams of Ammonium Hydroxide added to tank=
(5 sprays)x(1 mg Windex/spray)x(0.5% Ammonium Hydroxide)x
(10% stray spay into tank)x(1g/1000mg)=0.0000025 g

*Grams of salt water in 50 gal tank=
(50 gal)x(8.5 lbs/gal)x(454 g/1 lb)=192,950 g

*Concentration of Ammonium Hydroxide in tank from Windex overspray=
0.0000025g/192,950g=0.000000000013 g/g or 0.000013 ppm

Conclusions:
Be careful to spray the Windex on the outside of the tank. Don't worry so much. Even if I have a decimal off a bit or one of my assumptions is slightly off I simply don't see any big problem with the careful use of Windex. I agree that a person must do their bet not to introduce junk into a tank, but lighten up.


-Sci

[Toneloc66]

Hemmie,

I too struggled with dead fish when I first started. All due to ich. I tried the garlic treatment, the freshwater dips and anything that people would tell me. When my last fish died I poured a whole bottle of some copper stuff to kill anything that was in the tank ( I had only live rock back then ) I let the tank sit for 5 weeks like that before I added another fish. I did a bunch of water changes and added a new fish, 2 days later, yup, white little spots!!! I did some research and came to the conclusion of buying a UV light against the advise of alot of people here. Guess what, NO MORE ICH!! Number of deaths before UV light = infinite :) Number of deaths after UV light = ZERO!!!! BTW, I now have corals, live rock, live sand and fish in my tank and no side affects from using UV light so far. My theory is that LFSs everywhere use UV lights for their tanks, this keeps the ich from getting out of hand. Then when you spend your hard earned money and take the fish to your tank without a UV light, guess what, the ich gets out of hand then......dead fish. Back to the LFS, repeat cycle. I have a 18watt UV in my 30gl and a 40w in my 55gl. Im upgrading to a 180gl soon :)

[nematode]

sciguy2,
You are right, it won't be a problem, but 1 mg/ spray can't be right.
1 ml of water is 1 gram -that means that 1 spray would be 1/1000th of a ml. a coke can (355 ml) of windex would be 355,000 spays.
I wouldn't be surprised is a good spray of windex was a 1 ml.
that would make you 1000X off.
so, instead the ammonia is at 0.013 ppm. Still not a problem.

Hemmie,
50 nassarius snails - many too many for a 50 g tank. These are carniverous scavengers and they need a lot of food.

Drop in a little chunk or raw fish( pea sized) or some frozen brine shrimp. All of your nassarius snails should come out of the woodwork ( sand). If you still have a lot, I'd bring some to your local store and see if they will take them on trade in. I don' think you want to be feeding a tank at this stage really heavily to keep those snails happy. I think Dr. Ron recommends 1 or 2 per square foot of sand. That might be 5- to 10 for your tank.

[SciGuy2]

Nematode,

You are absolutely correct. My bad. 1 ml/spray not 1 mg/spray.

Thanks,
-Sci

[fishymissy]

When I said to add more snails, I meant turbo....sorry about that.


In all my years of keeping fish, I have never once read that spraying ammonia based products around a fish tank is a good thing. If fact, I have read many articles by experts stating just the opposite. Please tell me where an authority in this hobby has stated that it's not a problem......

[nematode]

bowsie,
The chemistry speaks for itself. Windex just cannot add any significant amount of ammonia into your tank. It is not relevant whether 100 'authorities in the hobby' have all stated it is a problem. If they stated this is the case, they are wrong. Whether some other cleaners with a much greater amount of ammonia might be able to cause a problem depends on the concentration of ammonia in those products. But windex cannot cause an ammonia problem when used in the amounts discussed above. It is simply not possible.

[Hemmie]

Tone~~
Ive read and debated about the UV...I dont know enough about them yet and still havent decided but you make some good points. Im leaning towards buying one...I ordered my grounding probe just yesterday. If you weigh the costs of the equip against the cost of the dead fish...well, theres no contest. I wish we knew for sure exactly whats doing what. Its such a guessing game. If the PO sterilizes everything anyways, we wont have to worry. Pretty soon FedEx will be shipping parasite free fish, safe for any Tank. Dead...but sterile.:p

The Windex..like I stated before..Ive used it for years on F/W tanks and never had a prob that I know of, but when the sh** hits the fan and you dont know why....I guess you get overcautious.

I bought some "special spray" for Aquariums. All this stuff does is smear up the glass. I may go back to the Windex, at this point I obviously have nothing (literally) to lose.

Percs are doing well in the Q tank and my main tank is boring as hell. I watch my dusters go in and out, thats about it. I did find more Nassarius's, I put shrimp in and out they came. half end up on the floor anyways, so I'm not too worried about feeding them.

I'm enjoying this thread immensely.
Thanks.;)

Hemmie

[Lora Dehner]

Hemmie,
I am so sorry. How frustrating it must be for you. I am by no means a very experienced fish keeper. I only have one Lionfish (P. Volitan) that I have had only for 3 weeks. I do have a sneaking suspician about what you have explained to be something that looked like air bubbles and white fuzzy dots. HYDROIDS
My sister raises Seahorses and she has done a lot of research on what could possible go wrong and she did E- Mail me a picture of hydroids. She will be posting you more information on this.

Hang in there!!!
Lora

[Aquamans Reef]

Sorry about the losses.

[drtango]

Not an unusual story for a beginner. I would suggest trying saltwater paradise in Tonawanda for fish--never had a problem there. My initial ich outbreaks were solved once I got a cleaner shrimp. None for a year now. Stable tank also helps alot--at least 4 months before adding a finicky fish. Keeping salinity a little low (1.022) helps a little. Get a good hydrometer (not the plastic float kind)--you might have your salinity off which is a big stress to newcomer fish.

I think Ich and other parasites exist in all tanks, like the flu, and when stressed simply attacks the fish much like us humans. Overcrowding also makes things worse. UV sterilizer a good idea for the first few months, but lose it long term to avoid killing the "good" stuff.

Good luck
JT

[Hemmie]

Funny thing about the cleaner shrimp(peppermint). I acclimated them SLOWLY and they flat out disappeared. (this was a while ago)

No fishies in the tank at this point but I did add one of my percs from the Q tank as a test. (they were clean) Ich was on em within 3 days. I fear that even after 6 weeks Ill have to deal with Ich. If its always in the tank..whats the point of waiting 6 weeks anyways?

I do beleive I'll be off to the Cichlid store soon.
Thanks for the Tonawanda info..I'll try em if I decide to stick this out...but really..whats the point if the Ich will forever haunt me?

[Toneloc66]

Two letters...................U and V

[motox]

Just Jumping in on the Windex topic... I have been using Glass Plus on my tanks. The label says that it contains no ammonia. It works well and so far no problems for me.

Kent

[Hemmie]

Hey Tone,
If I do go with the UV, it'll be my last resort. I can always sell it on eBay, I got a lot of my stuff there to begin with. I still havent decided yet but if I do...I'm leaning towards an Aqua.

My prob is that after a LOT of research, I still dont know what watt to get or what size pump. These things are too expensive to guess at.

Everyone else..thanks again for the help. My LFS is pretty good, small town stuff, but good. I never see disease in her tanks, its only after I bring em home and this is after theyve been in her tanks for a while, some even months, like the Percs.

Ive spent so much money and lost so much. I dont know if percs are Ich prone or what. We'll see what happens IF I decide on the UV. Its either that or the Cichlids. Its damn hard to kill an Oscar.


;)

[Toneloc66]

Try the UV, you wont regret it!! I have a Custom Sealife that is a hang on model and is really great!!! Heres the setup you need, just order it:

Order code: CSL18UV

18 Watt Double Helix by Custom SeaLife

$119.95

Dont forget to order a pump for it, I think they tell you on the website which one.

http://www.ffexpress.com/drygoods/uv.htm

[Hemmie]

Thanks Tone,
I probably will give it one more shot with a UV, but I'm not 100% yet. I wasnt sure what size to get.
Thanks again!

[billsreef]

Hemmie,

Patience is the key here. It's been only 3 weeks which is not long enough to eliminate the ich from your main tank.

[billsreef]

Hemmie,

Patience is the key here. It's been only 3 weeks which is not long enough to eliminate the ich from your main tank.