Still at my wit's end - 3 mos. later -- would you start over?

[Dag]

Anthony, I am appealing to you again, three months later, same problem. Notwithstanding having set up the system "right," my results are extremely disappointing, except for a few corals which I can grow in my tank - e.g., clavularia, encrusting gorgonian, sea rod, ricordeas, and blue ridge coral. Coralline algae and halimeda also grow well (suggesting calcium is high and phospate is low).

Among recent casualties are pavona coral, another acro and now, most alarming, a yellow scroll coral (turbinaria reniformis) -- which many have said is a beginner's coral, very hardy! After a week in my tank the polyps are turning white.

All parameters are stable and in line (as detailed further below) except for slight nitrates, which noone thinks is my problem, at least in the SPS forum -- see this recent thread (including a picture of my tank):

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394743 (http://)

I do weekly water changes, and run carbon 24/7. Even though phosphate was low, I added small amounts of phosban and rowaphos anyway (yes, I know some reported bleaching from this, but I used a small amount and my problems predated rowaphos).

I talked to the locals in the reef club, the LFSs, maintenance companies, etc. And some have come to see first-hand. All stumped.

Per your suggestion last time, I looked up green boring algae, but see no evidence in my tank. (Here's our last thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=334134 (http://) )

It is rather frustrating to see others with much less time and money invested achieve much better results.

I don't know what else to check. I'm thinking maybe its something in the live rock or the DSB. Do you think it's time to give up and start over, as painful as that may be?

[Dag]

Oops, neither link worked. Let me try again.

Here's a recent thread from the SPS forum (with pictures):

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394743

Here's our last thread on this topic:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=334134

[Dag]

Here's the summary of tank specifications:

Tank Specifications

- 200 gallon display (73�L x 24�W x 27�H)
- Approximately 180 lbs live rock added on 6/25/03 (plus base rock in the main tank and another 40lbs of rock in the sump and refugium)
- 3 ReefOptix III Metal Halide Pendants – 250W each with 10,000 K bulb
- 2 VHO Actinic bulbs hung 3� from water
-Circulation loop through sump – Iwaki 100 RLT – alternate flow between pipes with 3-way motorized valve on each side of center overflow box
- Closed loop with GRI 520 alternate flow between pipes with 3-way motorized valve on each side of tank
- 45 gallon sump
- CS-12-1 Euroreef skimmer
- 40 gallon refugium
- Temp 79.2 – 80
- PH 8.05 – 8.2
- Salinity is approx. 1.025
- Calcium approximately 400 (Korallin C-4002 calcium reactor and drip kalkwasser)
- Dkh 9 - 11
- DI/RO water
-No ammonia
- Nitrites - Approx .1 ppm or less
- Nitrates – Approx. 3 –5 ppm

Livestock

9 Fish (all fish introduced in display have lived)

Corals still alive: a bubble, blue and orange ricordeas, blue ridge coral, encrusting gorgonian, branching gorgonia (with extended polyps), lots of halimeda, maroon mushrooms (not prospering), zoos (only some have survived), green/brown pulsing, lemnalia, clavularia/daisy polyps (doing well), and kenyan tree coral (doing well), and purple zoos and some brown zoos (other zoos have died), green star polyps.

Other invertebrate still alive: two rose anemones, two cleaner shrimp, two blood shrimp, green bristle star and another star, fan worm and three clams, two yellow cucumbers, brown cucumber, two fighting conchs, various snails.

Corals that have been lost: three different open brains, two elegance corals, two stylophora, ½ dozen SPS frags, blastomussa, pom pom xenia, pachysera, hammer coral, pagoda coral, plate coral, orange montipora capricornis; , torch corals, and yellow polyps, and pavona corals.

Other casualties: two clams, two fan worms, tiger tail cucumbers, one fighting conch.

Miscellaneous

Coralline algae grows well
Halimeda grows well
5� DSB in main tank – oolitic sand
6� DSB in refugium – oolitic sand
Caulerpa in refugium and Chaetomorpha in overflow box

[Anthony Calfo]

Dag... I'm truly sorry to hear of your struggles, my friend. I have just read through the threads you've linked and rather agree that your system by the numbers is really near spot on. The pH is too flat if 8.0-8.2 are your daytime numbers (getting a little scary in fact if that 8.0 is during illumination, an indication that it is much lower at night and all assuming that your test did not read a little bit inaccurately high - yikes). But still not likely to cause these losses unless your actual pH in the dead of night was falling well below 8.0 (mid sevens?). For reefs... try to keep 8.4 (night) to 8.6 as a steady target - I feel your tank will be much better for it.

I would not tear the tank down at all... although I honestly do not have a clear solution for you... yet ;)

I must say (and not trying to kick a man when hes down here :p) that if you are not quarantining these animals before they are going into the display, then all best are off: pathogen, water quality... who knows?!?! Beyond it being the sensible and responsible thing to do (a QT tank costing mere tens of dollars against the investment of thousands you presently have the system right now)... and beyond it being good animal husbandry (nearly eliminating the chance of a pest, predator or disease getting in after a scrutinizing proper 4 week isolation period)... it would actually serve another purpose here by eliminating variables.

My apologies if I'm mistaken... but I presume since you did not mention QT, you are not doing it. It is my strong recommendation that you and everybody do so. In this specific case, it will be telling if new corals live just fine in QT, then suffer in the display (disease, water quality or pest)... and especially if they recover once back in QT (implicating water quality again).

You really have assembled an outstanding system here and there is no logical reason to scrap it. Other aquarists in your home town region are using the same source water and have similar equipment. I just dont see (yet ;)) what the trouble is... but I suspect it is something very specific and unique to this tank (will not be repeated in QT).

By chance have you chatted with the boys over at Old Towne Aquarium? I have great admiration for the quality of their staff and the quality of their livestock (I regard their supplier as one of the best in the nation). Perhaps they'll have some insight or one of their staff can consult for you?

In the meantime I'm happy to do whatever I can! PM me and we can chat by phone if necessary :)

no worries... we'll lick this my friend.

Anthony

[Anthony Calfo]

OK... this is an incredibly off the cuff question, but I'm reminded of another system that I consulted on that defied explanation for its struggles until finally after combing over every inch of the system and hardware, we discovered that a maintenance person had replaced a plastic valve with... a brass one. Doh!

You dont happen to have any non-plastic fittings inline anywhere do ya? :D

just checking...

Anthony

[rick rottet]

We had a guy in our local club experience a similar issue with a pump that had a brass seal.

[Dag]

not trying to kick a man when hes down here

Down but not out. Really, Anthony, kick all you want. My personal theory is that my misfortune is the result of hubris, thinking the "perfect" system would make my corals grow. It is not by protein skimmers, refugiums, dsbs or the like, do corals grow, but by the Almighty Creator who brings forth all from nothing in its infinite variety and splendor. A kick in the teeth cultivates humility, the proper vessel for blessing. My penance, I fear, is having to start from scratch, this time with due reverance and awe.

I am encouraged by your words, however, as well as the implicit commitment (non-binding of course :D ) to help lick this problem.

if you are not quarantining these animals before they are going into the display

:worried: :worried:

Fish I quarantine. With corals I have been lax.

However, your point is well taken, and the QT could be a useful diagnostic tool. The QT is now being setup and I will transfer the yellow scroll coral into it. Perhaps it will still live. Although I usually fill the QT with water from the display, this time I used fresh (but aged 24 hrs) make-up water.

try to keep 8.4 (night) to 8.6 as a steady target

If I could I would. It's all I can do to keep it above 8.0. I believe low PH is is because of the calcium reactor. I dose kalkwasser to keep it up between 8.1-8.2 (daytime numbers). If I don't dose, it will drop below 8.0. I also try to keep alkanity around 10-11 dkh to keep up the PH.

The good news is that I don't think it drops much below 8.0 at night (the aquacontroller gives me nighttime readings), perhaps because the refugium is on a reverse lighting cycle.

Right now the QT tested at 7.91 and I added some washing soda and kalkwasser to bring it up.

have you chatted with the boys over at Old Towne Aquarium?

Yes, a couple of times. I agree that both the staff is knowledgable and the livestock of good quality. Last time I told my tale of woe, one of the fellows suggesting dosing iodine. Frankly, I didn't think that was likely to be the cause or the cure, so I didn't. Am I mistaken?

You dont happen to have any non-plastic fittings inline anywhere do ya?

The Korallin calcium reactor comes with a brass check valve, but water doesn't flow through it. The Spears 3-way actuated valves have some kind of metal band (or reinforcement) on the outside of the union, but the metal doesn't touch the water and the inside of the union is plastic. I have a Aqualogic chiller plumbed in-line but I'd be surprised if that was the problem. There is check valve (from Savko) but that also is some kind of plastic. The pumps are Iwaki and GRI (no modifications, alterations or repairs). There are two Sedra pumps that come with the Euroreef sitting in the sump. There are a couple of probes in the sump as well along with a ground probe. The heater is a metal rod (I forgot what kind that was!).

That's it. That's everything that touches the water.

When I siliconed the bulkheads, I made sure to use the silicone sold as aquarium sealant, not the Home Depot stuff (so no risk of fungicide, etc.)

Thanks again for the encouragement. I felt better immediately.

[Anthony Calfo]

I agree... an iodine deficiency (unless water changes had been extraordinarily remiss) is not the likely source of the problem. But I am strong advocate of dosing iodine (daily) and think the advice was good. While I'm also outspoken about relying on water changes for dilution and elemental replacement while avoiding most supplementation... there are some key params to test and dose for. Calcium and Alkalinity you know... keeping an eye on magnesium too... and yes, iodine. Iodine has an extremely short lifespan in seawater... its readily taken up by animals or otherwise exported from the system in hours/days. I favor tiny daily doses rather than large weakly doses. Some very impressive reef displays give a measure of credit to health, vigor color and growth of their corals to the faithful use of Iodine.

That said, again <sigh>... it still is not the problem here. I'm reassured of your thoroughness... delighted to hear of your choice to set up a QT for the inverts (with new/aged water). And am in your service. Lets see what we can do.

Ooh... by the way, somebody got their wires mixed up on the recommendation of a yellow scroll Turninaria to you. They are quite far from being a beginners coral! They have tiny polyps and feed very little organismally (this rarely bodes well for aquarium candidates)... but rather depend on adequate (bright) light and feeding by absorption. Some sps keepers do very well with them (usually in tanks with high fish/nutrient loads)... but more people than not do rather poorly with yellow Turbinaria.

The real trooper in the genus is Turbinaria peltata (green or brown). This very large polyped Turbinaria is staggeringly easy to keep and propagate. Its literally one of THE hardiest corals money can buy. Truly an outstanding species. FWIW

Anthony :)

[Dag]

:hmm2:

I think I lost a turbinaria peltata (a/k/a pagoda coral, right?) a few months ago. It was greyish.

As for iodine, would you dose iodide rather than iodine? and if so, what dose? (ESV recommends 1 drop/gallon/week for its potassium iodide product).

[Anthony Calfo]

Hmmm... I see. Yikes! :( Yes... pagoda or cup coral - Turbinaria peltata. Literally top ten hardy among hundreds of corals. This is perplexing.

Could I trouble you to symptomatically describe the lost corals in more detail in the hours/days/weeks before they died? Polyop extension or not, any evidence of necrosis? Mucus? Sloughing? Secondary infections (brown jelly, white fuzz)? Anything other than corals not faring well (fishes, motile invertebrates)?

As for the iodine... both can work well. I favor Lugols solution. But whichever iodine you choose... there is inevitably some experimentation involved to find your ideal dose. Start conservatively low with the mfg recommendation (or 1 drop per 50 gallons per week of Lugols undilute). Increase it slowly in time to see how far you can push the envelope with doses increasing to daily. Use an iodine test kit as a guide, but dont lose sleep over the readings. The first sign of excess iodine if you are increasing slowly is a spike in brown diatom algae growth on the aquarium glass. If this occurs after a recent increase in iodine, simply back down to the last dose and skim heavy for a few days - no worries :)

[Dag]

No trouble at all, Anthony. Thanks for asking.

The typical pattern is that the coral is fine for a 1-2 weeks, then it slowly begins fading and turning white at the edges until the thing loses color altogether and is eventually taken over by algae (usually coralline). I did notice mucus near the yellow pavona coral that recently croaked. It's hard for me to distinguish between necrosis and something turning white. Also, I don't know what sloughing is.

No secondary infection. I would say no polyp extension (or at least none that I noticed). If the polyps are extended, that's usually a sign of good health. the polyps extended on my blue ridge coral and the sea rod (plexaplaurus?) and they seem to be doing well.

All fish (9 of them) placed in the display have lived, some for a year. Cleaner shrimp and blood shrimp seem fine. Green brittle star and some other brittle star seem fine. Snails seem fine. Fighting conchs are fine (but I have lost some). Plenty of bristleworms, copepods, and mysis. Cucumber seems fine.

Yellow scroll is in the QT. Perhaps insignificant, but I did notice a little fan worm come out that I hadn't seen emerge before.

Perplexing? :rolleyes: It's exasperating!

Tell me again, please, that we'll overcome ...

[Dag]

A couple of more observations of potential interest.

I bought one of those plain brown encrusting corals that has the pretty blue, orange and red little fan worms coming out of it. The coral died (or at least is mostly covered by coralline algae now) but the worms are doing fine.

There are lots and lots of tube worms. Alots lots of little fan worms coming out of the rocks.

I have a feather duster that has stayed alive for several months.

[Anthony Calfo]

Hmmm... it definitely does not sound like a pathogen or predator to me based on the informtation this far. Indeed some physical parameter stressing them (water quality/light).

Without getting too deep into a sea salt quality debate, if you trust my judgement :) let me suggest you do a very large water change or two (50%) in the next couple of weeks with a time-tested, quality sea salt (Tropic Marin gets my vote here). And use some poly-filters with activated carbon full-time (you are already doing this I believe/suspect). Poly-filters are fantastic chemical filtration media. The hope/premise here is that if it is an unrecognized or untestable corruption of water quality, then "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution" :D

This all presumes that the source water is not the root of the problem (you are not using distilled water produced with copper condensers, are you? Heehee)

If you use DI or RO water... be sure to aerate overnight and then buffer before salting. Prefiltering the water from Go with carbon and/or polyfilters is not a terrible idea either.

Lets see if we can eliminate water quality as an issue. The large water changes surely will not hurt us here. Be sure to adjust temperature, salinity and pH carefully.

Hmmm... have you verified the accuracy of your hydrometer BTW? Do consider taking samples to a LFS or another aquarists for testing on a different brand/style of instrument. FWIW... I favor a quality glass hydrometer even over the crappy (under $100) hobby grade handheld refractometers. And I use but dont trust plastic hydrometers farther than I can throw them :p

Salinity shock/stress will cause these general symptoms (hence my previous wonder about sudden influxes of freshwater for evap top off). I'm wondering now if the SG hasn't strayed and is being misread?

Whew! a toughie

Anthony

[Dag]

if you trust my judgement

Borrowing from the 12 steps, if you don't like the way your tank has been going so far, fire the guy in charge -- that's me :eek1:

distilled water produced with copper condensers

I use a RO/DI filter, but my house lines are copper. Do you think that could be a problem? Could copper be leaching from the house plumbing lines and getting past the RO/DI filter? I tested the water for copper with a Salifert test kit and got no reading, but I suspect those kits don't test for all kinds of copper.

Without getting too deep into a sea salt quality debate

I was using CS until 5/15 (I know what you think about that, but see this month's tank of the month using CS), at which time I switched to Oceanic. I have been 20% water changes since, and so far have gone through 2 1/2 200 gallon buckets. Salinity, temp and PH are matched to existing water.

50% water changes are tough, since my make up tank is only about 60 gallons. Let me think about this.

If you use DI or RO water... be sure to aerate overnight and then buffer before salting.

What does buffer mean?

Prefiltering the water from Go with carbon and/or polyfilters is not a terrible idea either

The water in the makeup tank has a chamber I could fill with carbon. Will do, thanks. Polyfilter is bit more difficult for makeup but I do use them in the display.

have you verified the accuracy of your hydrometer BTW

I have two refractometers, and have calibrated both and checked on both. I will get the glass hydrometer you suggest.

(hence my previous wonder about sudden influxes of freshwater for evap top off)

I use the Osmolator for topoff. Usually just a little at a time. and it automatically shuts off after 10 minutes if for any reason the water precipitously drops.

Whew! a toughie

Hey, don't get discouraged! (I feel like the really sick patient who has to cheer up his visitors. :mixed: )

Take care. Thanks for the help.

[Anthony Calfo]

By "buffering" the Ro/Di water, I mean "remineralize" it to give it some hardness and stability (using common seabuffer... carbonates and bicarb mostly). Please... NEVER use raw RO/DI water. It is acidic and unstable and at best a burden on your tank's pH and alkalinity. It could be worse and is a very bad habit nonetheless.

Before buffering though, its important to aerate such water overnight to raise the pH temporarily (off-gassing carbonic acid).

Do test your water at each stage... its quite a learning experience. Especially the raw RO/DI water. Yikes!


Anthony :)

[Dag]

Interesting.

What would the dosage of the buffer be?

Assuming I have a container of buffered RO/DI water for topoff, should I continue to aerate it even after buffering until the container is exhausted?

That might explain why my tank PH is low.

[jnb]

this is the first time I have heard of this treatment of ro/di water - can you provide a link for verification (I believe you; just want full detail)

sorry for the intrusion I won't come back

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
By "buffering" the Ro/Di water, I mean "remineralize" it to give it some hardness and stability (using common seabuffer... carbonates and bicarb mostly). Please... NEVER use raw RO/DI water. It is acidic and unstable and at best a burden on your tank's pH and alkalinity. It could be worse and is a very bad habit nonetheless.

Before buffering though, its important to aerate such water overnight to raise the pH temporarily (off-gassing carbonic acid).

Do test your water at each stage... its quite a learning experience. Especially the raw RO/DI water. Yikes!


Anthony :)

[Anthony Calfo]

jnick, good to hear from you... no worries, its no intrusion at all :)

using untreated de-mineralized water is a common mistake. We answer questions about this and many topics weekly at wetwebmedia.com

Please do consider checking out the site... it is a non-profit, free content website with a staggering amount of archives articles and FAQs.

If you do a keyword search from the index page with the google search tool, you'll find this topics answered at length in more than a few places. Do take the time to read/learn and enjoy the journey :)

It really is as simple as described above though... de-minderalized water is... well, de-mineralized :D MOst of the good and bad things have been taken out. We want to put back in some of the good ones to stabilize it and prevent it from being a burden on the main tank's pH, ALK, buffering pool in general.

Best regards,

Anthony

[tacocat]

Dag, do you smoke in your house? Does anyone use cleaning chemicals in and around your tank, wood polish, windex, etc? Finally, are these SPS corals captive bred, farmed, or wild caught? I find that wild colonies don't do nearly as well as captive specimens.

[tom8344]

I have the same problem as Anthony but I think you solved my problem, I have a brass valve. It's coming out tomorrow and carbon is going in. Thanks so much!!!!!

Tom

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Tom... excellent to hear of the save! Its one of the beauties about communications like these wonderful message boards in the Information Age :)

best regards,

Anthony

[Dag]

Anthony, your question about metal in the tank has been haunting me, causing me to repeatedly search for something I missed -- and, lo and behold, there was a small screw in the water. I have a gate valve regulating my skimmer, and the valve is partially submerged, including the screw that secures the knob. Upon inspection, the screw was a bit rusty but otherwise seemed intact.

Could that have been my problem? If so, I'm amazed at how sensitive the system is -- imagine a bit of rust in a 300 gallon system .....

[TippyToeX]

Originally posted by tom8344
I have the same problem as Anthony but I think you solved my problem, I have a brass valve. It's coming out tomorrow and carbon is going in. Thanks so much!!!!!

Tom

tom8344

[welcome]

Glad you caught it. :)

[Anthony Calfo]

alas... I must admit that a single partially rusty screw in a 300 gall really is nothing. Truly no concern at all and certainly not the cause of your problems. We must keep looking... sigh :(

[scotty1234]

Dag,
I have had a very similar incident happen to me in a 36 gallon bowfront tank I set up. Fish would live just fine but corals would die within weeks if not days. Have you had any mushrooms die in that tank? I was sort of wondering where you got your live rock?

[Dag]

My maroon mushrooms did not die, but were not doing well in the display. I moved them to the refugium, where they seem to be doing ok, but they have never flourished.

The rock came Harbor Aquatics.

[Ocean Image]

Just a thought......When is the last time you replaced your RO/DI elements or checked your TDS out of the unit?

[Dag]

Hi, all.

Does anyone think this brown growth (in a low light area) could be the cause of my problems:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Brown_growth_Small.jpg

......When is the last time you replaced your RO/DI elements or checked your TDS out of the unit

I checked and replaced the cartridges four months ago, and I'm going to do it again soon.

[Anthony Calfo]

no biggie... just a sponge. And while they can be quite noxious or toxic, it tends to be moreso a problem with fishes in aquaria. And even then only when the sponge is eaten or suddenly dies en masse or in quantity (relasing noxious compounds).

no worries... a handsome incidental growth :)

Anthony

[Dag]

Anthony, I hope you have the patience for small case study.

Here's the frag I picked up last Sunday (4 days ago). It was from an established home tank and a 7 year old colony. It had been cut and mounted on a small rock, three days before I got it. Here's the picture right after I put it in my tank:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_new_frag.jpg

There was a bit of mucus right after I put it in, but was soon gone. Typically, if my past experience is the pattern, I watch and wonder whether it is fading, but the decline is so gradual, and I am usually in denial, so I hardly recognize the death until it's all gone, full of algae, or eaten by snails.

Here's today's picture -- I thought it was fading at the tips, but I can't be sure, and I can't really tell by comparing to the old picture whether there's actual change in the frag or just variation in the camera picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_picture_after_one_week.jpg

[Anthony Calfo]

I do wish I could help here my friend... but diagnosis from pics is tough as it is. And in this case, your subjects are not full frame shots and the resolution is, with all due respect, below average to poor.

A bit of a camera tip: do not use the digital zoom on your camera if you need clear close up shots. And if you must, never zoom in all the way (instead... pan in full zoom and then back off slightly). Its a glicth/artifact of the process of digital zooming but simply ruins many good shots.

The proper habit is to get the camera as close to the subject as possible (camera near the glass and subject moved forward neer the glas if/when possible). Then... if you still need to get closer for the subject to fill the frame, proper close up lenses are called for. And again, if you otherwise need to use the digital zoom... use as little as possible and never use it at full extension (do some test shots of full extension and slighly backed off - you willbe amazed on your pc screen the difference in resolution).

FWIW :)

Anthony

[rehren]

i thought you weren't supposed to keep halimeda in tanks with SPS...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=414866&highlight=halimeda

or do a search for 'sps' and 'halimeda'

[Dag]

Anthony, even with all the limitations of this medium, your advice and attention and is very helpful and appreciated. Here's another picture of this frag at 15 days (this time using manual focus):

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Purple_Frag_at_15_days.jpg

In the picture there appears to be open polyps which is difficult to see with the naked eye.

I also added this new frag today, and the polyps were obviously open within an hour:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/New_Yellow_Frag.jpg

[Anthony Calfo]

a good sign :) After two weeks they look quite good. I'm pulling for you, and know that you have been working hard to overcome this challenge!

Anthony

[Anthony Calfo]

ah, yes... and much better image quality too with your manual focus! Kudos :)

[Dag]

Ah, Anthony. I wish I could say no news is good news. :(

It's been more than three months, and both of pieces pictured a few posts back have joined the legions of skeletons before them.

I've been in a funk, unable to write, especially since these are not the only two that bit the dust. I thought I was on the road to recovery, and therefore couldn't resist loading up on SPS frags, encouraged by what appeared to be clear growth in a certain green SPS frag, which initially did well but then turned brown and the tips turned white and now looks like this:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/November_2004_001.jpg

It's still alive, but doesn't look great.

Several Bali cultured acro frags, and an ehinata perished, but strangely one of them still is alive (again not doing obviously well). It has brown stems and turquoise tips:
'
http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_acro.jpg

[Dag]

There is a bright spot, which I'll soon share, but let me finish this tale of woe.

This stag frag is sort of typical. It just kind of withered, but you can see on the bottom live flesh while the top turned white and is now covered by algae. At first it seemed to be doing well for at least a month, then it withered, and it's been holding on in this state for another month (it's now held in a little adjunct tank):

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Withered_frag.jpg

Not much better luck with montipora capricornis frags (green with purple rim, and orange) yet this red montipora frag has outlived them and seems to be doing ok:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_red_montipora.jpg

[Anthony Calfo]

sadly, I'm at a loss too... there is something uncommon if not unnatural at hand here perhaps (contaminent in the rocks/substrate or some recurring input?)

do these corals look fine in QT for the first month before moving to the display then begin to suffer? And have frags of these corals fared well in other tanks. I'm thinking this may be a problem with your tank if not habits.

My apologies for a tardy reply too... I'm off soon for a long trip/conference and have limited time here on the board in the next 2 days.

Anthony

[Dag]

Here's the bright spot.

This green cup coral appear healthy and has been doing well for over a month, which is encouraging since I previously had a yellow scrow coral (turbinaria) and brown pagoda, which did not last too long.

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_Green_cup.jpg

Any thoughts, Dr. Calfo? I have that awful feeling riding a dropping stock. You can't bring yourself to sell it, and yet you can't stand the pain of watching it drop further. Am I crazy to keep riding this horse?

Here's my latest acquisition, a beautiful Wesophyllia (I had two trachyphillia and several open brains which died about a year ago). I'm hoping my tank is fit for this now.

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/small_wesophyllia.jpg

[Dag]

I'm wondering, should someone stop me before I kill again?

Or would you encourage me to continue?

Thanks for your patience, especially if you read through all of the foregoing.

Be well.

[Dag]

contaminent in the rocks/substrate

My gut tells me this is the problem, and I have no way to fix it except start over. I keep hoping the problem will work itself out -- a definition of insanity, I think -- repeating the same thing and hoping for a different result.

I'm thinking of just sticking with the corals I have, and concentrating on more fish.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Safe travel.

[Anthony Calfo]

thanks kindly, my friend... and perhaps we can chat and see pics/this tank during the IMAC marine conference (in Chicago next June)? I'd be delighted to if time allows for us both :)

Anthony

[Dag]

I'm looking forward to it.

[scotty1234]

Dag,
I had the same problem as you a while back and might have even posted on one of your threads. The tank I have that had this problem was the 36 gallon bowfront. Everything I put into it would die within days if not weeks. Mushrooms would wither up and puke guts everywhere. Nothing would live. To make a long story short, I replaced the sand bed, 'removed the skimmer', and let the tank run for about a month to two months this way. After a month I filled a clear sandwich bag from one of my other tanks full of some grape calurpa algae and poked holes in it then sank it in the tank to observe it and see if it would grow. To my surprise it did and I felt more comfortable with sticking corals in there. Now the tank has SPS, Monti caps etc, all thriving. My suggestion to you would be to remove the skimmer for a month, increase the flow, stick some calurpa algae in a sandwich bag and wait to see what happens in about a month. I would say to remove the sandbed but I don't think that sounds like the problem. What was happening with my tank is that the skimmer was just stripping the water column and nothing could live. Hope this helps, good luck.

[Dag]

I replaced the sand bed,

Why do you blame the skimmer, and not the sand bed?

My sand came from ESV.

[jnb]

Originally posted by scotty1234
Dag,
I had the same problem as you a while back and might have even posted on one of your threads. The tank I have that had this problem was the 36 gallon bowfront. Everything I put into it would die within days if not weeks. Mushrooms would wither up and puke guts everywhere. Nothing would live. To make a long story short, I replaced the sand bed, 'removed the skimmer', and let the tank run for about a month to two months this way. After a month I filled a clear sandwich bag from one of my other tanks full of some grape calurpa algae and poked holes in it then sank it in the tank to observe it and see if it would grow. To my surprise it did and I felt more comfortable with sticking corals in there. Now the tank has SPS, Monti caps etc, all thriving. My suggestion to you would be to remove the skimmer for a month, increase the flow, stick some calurpa algae in a sandwich bag and wait to see what happens in about a month. I would say to remove the sandbed but I don't think that sounds like the problem. What was happening with my tank is that the skimmer was just stripping the water column and nothing could live. Hope this helps, good luck.

Sorry, I usually don't chime in this way - but I do not believe the skimmer can strip the water to the extent things die off like this if other basic husbandry is anyway near normal.

[Dag]

I do not believe the skimmer can strip the water to the extent things die off like this

I tend to agree. That's why I asked about the sand bed.

[scotty1234]

I tried both and have run the tank 'skimmerless' since I removed the skimmer and have had no problems. I tried all the recommendations like, testing for copper, ro/di, more water changes, testing for everything known to man, checking the tank for current, running a ground probe when it wasn't needed, dosing the tank with junk that wasn't needed and none of it worked and someone commented to remove the skimmer for awhile and see what happens. Since this was the only thing I hadn't tried and the one thing that wasn't recomended to me previously by the pro-skimmer crowd why not give it a try. After about a month I placed the calurpa bag in there and watched it grow. Then I started to add corals. I guess if I would have recommended O2 or something it would have been met with less resistance. lol. This was my personal experience of what worked for me, just trying to help, do with it what you will.

[jnb]

I understand your point - the thing is that if you took a poll of the best reef techicians 99.99% of them I am betting would conclude that the skimmer would not (NOT) strip like this. Understand I am not being auguementative - I only really feel strongly that something else brought back your success instead of unplugging your skimmer so that you might rethink what caused your success - maybe your tank balanced out key parmeters on its own during this critical time - it happens e.g. maybe some additives overdosed finally diluted away, etc. When you testede for everything known to man - did you get a nitrate reading or was it 0.
Anyway - if this is moot at this point you don't have ta respond - I am glad your tank is back on track - did you ever restart your skimmer?



Originally posted by scotty1234
I tried both and have run the tank 'skimmerless' since I removed the skimmer and have had no problems. I tried all the recommendations like, testing for copper, ro/di, more water changes, testing for everything known to man, checking the tank for current, running a ground probe when it wasn't needed, dosing the tank with junk that wasn't needed and none of it worked and someone commented to remove the skimmer for awhile and see what happens. Since this was the only thing I hadn't tried and the one thing that wasn't recomended to me previously by the pro-skimmer crowd why not give it a try. After about a month I placed the calurpa bag in there and watched it grow. Then I started to add corals. I guess if I would have recommended O2 or something it would have been met with less resistance. lol. This was my personal experience of what worked for me, just trying to help, do with it what you will.

[scotty1234]

To answer your question, no, the skimmer has never been put back on the tank.

[Dag]

Anthony,

Patience has not rewarded me with success. Hard corals still die, including montis.

I'm thinking of pulling out my sandbed from the main tank (maybe it was just a bad batch of sand or it got contaminated). I believe you favor DSB's in the main tank. Do you think this would be a terrible mistake? Lots of people are reporting success with barebottom tanks.

[Anthony Calfo]

the cycle of bare-bottomed to sand bottom to bare bottom and back again has happend for years, with aquarists reacting/knee-jerking to the last/latest in favor of the next.

I cannot state my position(s) any more clearly my friend :(

If going to bare bottom will give you peace of mind and reduce variables... it is my sincere recommendation that you do so.

best of luck and life

[Dag]

I want results, not peace of mind. After spending a small fortune on the "right" equipment (big flow, strong MH light, calcuim, RO/DI, Euroreef skimmer, etc.) and countless hours of learning, I'm reluctant to settle for just mediocre. My choices are:

1. Do nothing.
2. Do something.

Granted nothing is oftentimes better than something, and I've basically gone with that approach nearly 2 years hoping things would improve.

The losses are too persistent and pervasive to be attributed to pests or diseases, and they're also uneven. After numerous testings, by me and others, water quality does not seem to be an issue.

Numerous consultations with experts, experienced hobbyists, and field trips by LFS owners and professional maintenance folks, leave them all stumped and me.

What's left? Perhaps the sand is contaminated. I got it from ESV. there's 6" in the main display and another six inches in the refugium. My most recent consultant suggested removing 1/2 the sand is the display (on the theory that slow changes are better than dramatic changes) and see how things are then. But this seems to me to be an approach without a logical underpinning. As far as I can tell, no one advocates a 3" sandbed.

I could move the sand to a remote DSB, but I understand the view that a remote DSB does not work.

I need a brilliant insight.

If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading and caring.

Aryeh

[Dag]

Anthony,

Do you it's possible that sand can be too fine? The sand from ESV is very fine. Maybe the silt from the sand kills the hard corals.

Aryeh

[scotty1234]

Dag,
You should take everything out of the tank, throw away the sand and start over. After the sand is out clean the tank thoroughly and restock it either using new sand or no sand if you go the bb approach. I had a similar experience with a tank that was doomed from the get go. Nothing would live, not even mushrooms. I put them in, then days later they would shrivel up and die. Now the tank is a reef tank with many different species of corals that seem to be doing great. Sometimes it's easier to just start over. Try and stay away from the softies that like to have chemical warfare with ech other as well. It only adds one more variable to the list of things to check if something goes awry. Just keep digging and you'll find the answer eventually. I would definitely throw away the sand and start over though. Probably not what you wanted to hear but maybe the best thing to do in you're situation.

[Anthony Calfo]

Fine sand is no trouble at all. In fact... I've grown stonies in tanks with the ESV sand source for over ten years. Sugar fine oolitic sand is my favorite substrate overall. I see no trouble with it here.

[Dag]

Anthony,

I wonder if you recognize this worm, and think it might be part of my problem: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4949330#post4949330

There's lots of them in the tank. Dr. Ron hasn't answered yet, but I think it's likely he'll say it's beneficial. It hides in the rocks, as opposed to the corallivores which go hunting.

[Anthony Calfo]

indeed, most errantiate polychaetes like the so-called "bristleworms" are harmless if not helpful.

But there are exceptions. The Caribbean fireworm gets a bit too large and/or leans too carnivorous to be considered wholly useful/safe for reef aquariums IMO.

How long is this worm of yours?

Do check with Humman's ID book or my Reef Invertebrates book if handy to see more info/images on such worms. Lots of places online I am sure too.

kindly, Anthony

[Dag]

Anthony,

I thought you might be interested in the next chapter of this story.

I removed the 6" ESV sandbed in June, 2005. It had no smell, and was full of worms.

I have now kept several SPS frags and colonies for more than 3 mos, which is much better than before. No stunning growth, and some losses, but at least the SPS seems to be living. It's progress!

I think my sand must have been contaminated somehow.

[Dag]

Some recent pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_Front.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Another_front_view_small.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Small_SPS_Frags.jpg

[Dag]

Scotty1234,

Thanks for encouraging me to remove the sand. Things are doing much better.

[scotty1234]

That's good to hear! I actually meant take out the old sand and put in the new sand but it sounds like you have something that works. Hard to tell from the pictures but looks like you went BB.

[Dag]

Not a pure BB. I replaced the sand bed in the refugium. There are alot of advantages to not having sand in the main display.

[scotty1234]

Good luck with it!

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Dag
Corals still alive: a bubble, blue and orange ricordeas, blue ridge coral, encrusting gorgonian, branching gorgonia (with extended polyps), lots of halimeda, maroon mushrooms (not prospering), zoos (only some have survived), green/brown pulsing, lemnalia, clavularia/daisy polyps (doing well), and kenyan tree coral (doing well), and purple zoos and some brown zoos (other zoos have died), green star polyps.

Corals that have been lost: three different open brains, two elegance corals, two stylophora, ½ dozen SPS frags, blastomussa, pom pom xenia, pachysera, hammer coral, pagoda coral, plate coral, orange montipora capricornis; , torch corals, and yellow polyps, and pavona corals.

Other casualties: two clams, two fan worms, tiger tail cucumbers, one fighting conch.

This is just throwing out ideas ... but given it's so hard to know, I'd wonder about alleopathy contributing to problems.

Gorgonia often are fairly chemically noxious, as can be corallimorphh and soft corals. While it's odd that it's mostly stony corals that are having problems ... it seems like there's a split there - softies/gorgs mostly do well, stonies mostly struggle.

Of course, lots of other chemical issues could be linked in here ... but it's something to consider IMO. A couple warring corals [or dying mushrooms, or dying cuke] could release quite a few nasties IMO ... and while not the `one cause' ... maybe not `helping' things.

Best of luck, I'll be thinking.

[Dag]

I know think the cause is clear. It was the sand. I could have never kept this coral more than two weeks when I had sand, and now it's been several months:

http://home.comcast.net/~albenjamin/Purple_Pocillopora_small.jpg

Nothing changed in my sand except the removal of the DSB in the display, and the exchange of the DSB in my refugium with new sand.

There was something wrong with the sand, but I don't know what.

I am really enjoying not having a DSB in the main display for a host of reasons.

[scotty1234]

I had the exact same problem with a sandbed I put in a bowfront from day one, nothing would stay alive. Mushrooms etc would wilt and fall off the rock dead within 48 hours. I tested the water for everything possible using an arsenal of Salifert kits and nothing was off. Finally (months after trying the skimmerless approach) I drained the tank, removed the sand, cleaned the tank with water, then replaced the sand with new sand, and added corals again after the cycle and everything was fine. Corals grew well and healthy. What's odd was that the tank had been set-up for around 6-7 months and during that time I couln't keep any of the corals alive. After replacing the sandbed I didn't have any issues. The tank got better when I removed the skimmer but didn't fix the problem. I stated in one of my other posts from awhile back that the skimmer may have stripped the water column, this would be incorrect. That's why when I saw this thread I figured it might be your sandbed. Now I wish I could remember what kind of sand it was...

What kind of sand were you using?

[Dag]

It was ESV, a sugar-sized aragnonite.

Unfortunately, it took me me 2 years to bite the bullet and remove the sand.

[scotty1234]

Definitely not what I used. Kind of wanted to see if there was any significance but I guess not.

[SeaBlueEyes]

Well, it's taken me about an hour to get through this enormous series of threads concerning your tank issues, but it has proven worthwhile !!

I have been raving about my fabulous water delivery service, Pure Water Plus, (to my marine and reef customers and friends) since I started using it for casual discus breeding two years ago and now for my reef tank. It is almost the one year anniversary of my 60 reef... (albeit modest with only a few mushrooms and a couple sponges) and no major issues yet, (except for my current flatworm crisis.)

My point is that I never questioned the water quality of Pure Water Plus under the presumption that during their RO and distillation process, NO impurities could possibly remain! I did not consider the possibility that they use copper condensers (dear jesus no :eek1:!)
eek1!) nor did I consider the implications of the metal fittings on PWP's delivery hose and god knows what else!

I am INCREDIBLY reluctant to abandon this exceedingly convenient service. Do you guys think it's absolutely necessary? Even if they don't use copper condensation plates, is the potential brass pollution from their transportation/storage container fittings reason enough to abandon them? Does high turnover rate count for anything, i.e., if the freshly filtered water doesn’t dwell around the metal for long before delivery?

I have a decent invertebrate collection including many hermits, snails, a couple crabs and shrimps, a barnacle, a mystery sea slug (stomatella varia?) lotsa pods, and whatnot. Over the past year, I killed a cluster of xenia (I think from my lack of proper lighting... but an 800W MH hood is in the works). Other than that, I’ve only lost on arrow crab and a peppermint shrimp. I say this hoping my success is reason enough to stay with PWP.

What do you think?

And here’s a poor picture of my sweet mystery barnacle.

Thanks for the entertaining and informative thread!

-Laura

[SeaBlueEyes]

The picture's too big. I'll have to muck with it and get back to you. I forgot to mention that I have some echinoderms in the tank too that are happy.

[®eefer]

Dag,
I am interested to know how you went about removing the sandbed? I am convinced that my sand bed has become contaminated. Also, how are things going thus far?

[Dag]

I just siphoned it out. I'm able to grow hard corals that I never could before, but my tank still is not awesome.

[®eefer]

Are you still experiencing die offs? I'm just wondering if I should make a break for it now and re-do everything, or just remove sand.

[Dag]

Before everything died after a few weeks. Now things are alive and occassionally I lose a frag or colonies. But clearly some corals are growing. Just not as fast as I would like.

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm sorry, but I still cannot subscribe to the mystery sand bed cause. If related at all, the removal of the sand bed coincided with something else that has improved (not impressively) success with your system (starting with another massive/beneficial water change that further dilutes other more likely impurities/problems). I don't mean to be a buzzkill... but there is no logical explanation IMO for why the sand would/could impart something so selectively deleterious.

[Dag]

Theory is an ace; experience is a trump.

The fact that you can't explain it, or don't know a logical reason for the cause is no reason to deny the fact.

I assure you there was no coincidence with some other improvement. The history of my problem, and all the things I did to improve/fix the system as a whole, are well documented in my threads. This was not a problem that occurred over a short period; we're talking more than 2 years, and my attempts to remedy occurred over the same time frame.

There is no doubt that following the removal of the sand bed, I am able to keep SPS corals and montipora (it even grows) that I never was before. I also had a pocillipora that was dying (it had turned brown and half died) that returned to life (the half that was left turned pink).

There was also nothing apparently wrong with the sandbed: it smelled good, and was full of worms and other life. Go figure.

Now the only thing I can surmise is that somewhere along the storage and transportation process, it got contaminated with something. (Did you know ESV keeps this sand in a huge mound outside? I ordered the sand in the middle of winter and had to wait until a thaw so they could shovel some into the the buckets.)

I am not suggesting that my experience proves DSBs are bad; only that my DSB was bad (but I don't really know why).

P.S. Anthony seems to responding to some message other than my last one, but for some reason it's now showing up.