Founder and Moderators of RC.... lend me your ears.

[crap]

Allow me to introduce myself. I am Crap. Sorry if my name seems distasteful but its a legacy of my nickname, Absolute Crap, for an online war game which I have been playing for 2 years (still am)

I am a reefer, owning a 117 gallon tank which just turned one year old a month ago. I have made Reef Central my favourite forum, signing up in June this year.

I believe I have conducted myself well here, made about 26 posts thus far. I am a voracious reader of all the posts made here. I contribute when I think I know what I am talking about, I post questions when I seek my fellow reefers' advice. I refrain from posting crap (pun intended).

However, recently, I made a post in the Lounge about how the recent horrible incident in NY and the calls for revenge and payback seemed to strain the atmosphere of respect and friendliness and raising feelings of racist hatred. I made the mistake of asking if the lounge should be closed when I meant that perhaps the war topic should be closed. Of course, the responses came fast and thick.

It was a yes or no answer which most did answer with a resounding NO! with supporting reasons. Some said maybe YES... I think one Moderator even supported that too.

Which was fine UNTIL one Founder and previous Moderator began to rail at me. Some of his comments can be found here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38038&pagenumber=3

I am, for one, a patient dude. I chose to ignore some of his comments. But the more I thought about what he said, I felt really unjustified. And what he said would implicate hundreds if not thousands of RC forum users.

Some of the words thrown about that generally described me and some users who fall in his defined profile, is that we are nothing more than , quoting him... "lurkers", "leeches" and should you not meet a certain criteria of postings ie more than 20 posts... you are NOT a member of this community!

I am also appalled that we are defined as "takers" and not "givers", and should we just "lurk around" and not contribute enough... we are COSTING Reef Central precious MONEY by WASTING RESOURCES!!!

My question to the owners, the founders, the administrators, the moderators.... DO YOU ALL FEEL THE SAME WAY???

I think some of us are wanting to know the Official Stand on this subject matter. If it's just the view of one Founder, then perhaps, it's possible that he is just one view and cannot be taken seriously. But lets hear what the management has to say on this.

I appreciate your feedback, and I state for the record, my intention is not to shake the foundations of this excellent forum board but to draw attention to the fact that anarchy usually starts from one man and spreads. :)

Sorry Northern Reef, but I am not saying you're Osama Bin Laden. :P

[Green Mariner]

Crap, I am neither a moderator, administrator, or founder, I am a member just as you. I would suggest that in the future you just ignore posts from an individual that in your view takes a "shot" at you. I am familiar with the thread you speak of and personally I didn't think it was directed at you, but perception is everything. There are thousands of members here and you are no doubt going to get into disagreements on certain topics, especially in the "Lounge", you just can't take it personally. Since 09/11/01 I have had some of what I would consider to be very heated discussions with some other members, and as far as I am concerned those topics stay in the threads where they orignated. I will still offer and accept advice from those who I disagreed with, simply because we disagreed on the topic at hand and thats all. You will find that there are many opinonated people here at RC mainly because they feel very strongly about what they are discussing, and may not always express themselves in the way others would like, but that still doesn't change the fact most people here are here to help! Sorry to jump in on this, but seeing as you are a fairly new member to RC, I wanted to let you know how I view this topic.

[Mark]

hmm. Well, if people lurk here and learn some things that make them better reefkeepers, then I'd say we're doing a good job. Our goal is to create a community where people can learn and share ideas. This in turn creates more consciously aware reefers who, I hope, are providing a better environment for the organisms they keep. Whether they lurk or contribute doesn't matter to me. As long as the end result is a more knowledgeable, consciously aware reefkeeper. Of course, the more that contribute, the better this community becomes. So I encourage all lurkers to "come out of the shadows." Larry has his opinions, and I respect that. He founded this board, along with some other folks. I respect that as well. But please do not assume that his opinions are necessarily the same as those that run this board. Likewise, no one should ever assume that my opinion on some reef or lounge topic is necessarily the same as others affiliated with this board. Perhaps we should all have a disclaimer that says:

"the opinions of this reefer do not necessarily represent the opinions of the RC community or it's sponsors.";)

The thing I like about this board, is that us moderators generally agree on how this board should be run.

I hope that you continue to stay with this community. Just be aware that you are bound to run into some differences of opinions, whether its from a reefer, 10 & over club, moderator, expert, or even a founder. Sometimes the opinion can come off as abrasive, and we do our best to keep things respectful here. With the whole September 11th incident, peoples opinions and spirits have been on an all time high, and rightfully so. You oughta see how many obscenities we've had to edit out the last few weeks.:)

[BrianD]

I didn't take anything Larry said as a comment directed to anyone in particular.

In any case, there are no restrictions on who can access the bulletin board, whether they be active participants or "lurkers" (BTW, the term "lurker" is commonly used, and I don't think it has negative connations)

Whether we or anyone else attach different "values" to different members is not really relevant. As long as everyone is free to participate actively or "lurk" as they choose, that is all that matters.

Brian

[crap]

Originally posted by Green Mariner
Crap, I am neither a moderator, administrator, or founder, I am a member just as you. I would suggest that in the future you just ignore posts from an individual that in your view takes a "shot" at you. I am familiar with the thread you speak of and personally I didn't think it was directed at you, but perception is everything. There are thousands of members here and you are no doubt going to get into disagreements on certain topics, especially in the "Lounge", you just can't take it personally. Since 09/11/01 I have had some of what I would consider to be very heated discussions with some other members, and as far as I am concerned those topics stay in the threads where they orignated. I will still offer and accept advice from those who I disagreed with, simply because we disagreed on the topic at hand and thats all. You will find that there are many opinonated people here at RC mainly because they feel very strongly about what they are discussing, and may not always express themselves in the way others would like, but that still doesn't change the fact most people here are here to help! Sorry to jump in on this, but seeing as you are a fairly new member to RC, I wanted to let you know how I view this topic.

Hi,

I believe that there is a difference between opinionated discussions and an outright statement (especially by 'management') directed at me or people like me.

As I said, I would normally turn the other cheek and let it fly over my head but I just want to know if the managers of this board harbour this same thought. It would disturb many people should one day, this come bubbling out or god forbid, blow up right in our faces.... I am exaggerating of course.

Even the President of the USA has freedom of speech but I think he watches every single word he says in his present position as a leader.

[Staceon]

Crap let it go. There are far more important things in life to worry about than message boards.:)

[Mark]

Originally posted by Staceon
Crap let it go. There are far more important things in life to worry about than message boards.:)

Well, put!:)

[Q-ball]

Originally posted by Staceon
Crap let it go. There are far more important things in life to worry about than message boards.:)

Yup, good advice here. Put it this way, if we didn't want lurkers here, we could just ban user accounts that haven't been used in say, 90 days...or maybe we would ban accounts that don't have the right average number of posts per day? Hehe, nah, that wouldn't be no fun. The site is here for learning, not for profit. I don't think JohnL's losing money on the site now, and I happen to know that the server is not hurting when a few extra people login to RC:D Relax, as one great man once said..."fugedaboudit";)

Q!!!

[Agu]

The goal of RC is to provide the best information possible about reefkeeping. Anything else is just a distraction imo. Whether your a new person to the hobby or an experienced veteran reefkeeper there's always more to learn!! As the hobby grows and evolves we're all finding new information and developing new techniques. The internet is an awesome medium for sharing these discoveries. It's also a lousy way to communicate at times, which results in misunderstandings and personal affronts. We all need to evaluate why we're here and what we "say". Sadly, a small minority has lost sight of the purpose and goals of RC and causes most of our problems. As a person, I get tired of the same people raising the same tired issues that aren't related to reefkeeping. As a moderator, these people waste our time, time that could be spent more productively helping other reefers.

BTW, I "lurked" on the various boards for about a year before ever posting. There's nothing wrong with doing your homework, learning all you can, and asking questions when your particular issue hasn't been addressed.

As far as freedom of speech goes, everybody has freedom of speech, but people need to remember that RC has no obligation to provide the free speech forum for anybody. If someone feels the need to shoot their mouth off , may I suggest they start their own message board. Then they can say whatever they want whenever they want, that's what freedom is all about.

jmo,
Agu

[clownkev]

I agree with all that has been said.
If you were around maybe six months or a year ago, you would know that Larry was possibly the biggest contributer to the board. He answered to nearly every topic, with very intelligent helpful answers. I believe the reason he took a break from the board, and then retired his old name "Larry M", was because of random personal attacks. Now he posts relatively few replies, and is not as active in RC. :( His post may have seemed abrasive, but it is possible he was just upset that somebody wanted to challenge RC on what he had worked so hard on building. Back in the day there was not even half as many members. All the posts from the last day, would fit on the first page, now it takes about three.
What I am trying to say, is that Larry, IMO, is largely the reason this board is as great as it is today.
I just thought that you should know this information, so you can make an informed decision on whether you are going to continue to pursue this matter.
Thank you.
Kevin

[JohnL]

I think some of us are wanting to know the Official Stand on this subject matter. If it's just the view of one Founder, then perhaps, it's possible that he is just one view and cannot be taken seriously. But lets hear what the management has to say on this.

It is "just the view of one Founder".

[Nagel]

I'd like to put my .o2 in here.

First and foremost, this board is ABOUT reefkeeping.

Second, and I've said it before, written communication is the WORST way of getting a point across. There's 10 different ways someone could take something when its read, but when you actually hear it, it can only be on way. Writing loses inflections of the voice, accents on certain words, and is impersonal to say the least.

Third, let it go, he may be a founder, but I don't think he is an active moderator anymore. He may have contributed to this site in many ways (most before my time here), but a discussion in the lounge is just that. The reason you came here was to better your reefkeeping abilities.

Lastly, being a lurker isn't bad. It's bad if you are contributing advice that you don't know a thing about, and I'm sure the staff at RC would back me up if I said "It's better to lurk and read and learn, then to give advice that has no foundations". I didn't contribute for nearly a year (heck, I didn't even sign up for nearly a year), but once I started my reef I joined because I had questions to ask. Now I may not have all the information that everyone is looking for, but I do try to contribute when I feel that I have something of value to add. I'd venture to say that a good portion of my posts on here now are a result of helping a reefer who is only 6 months behind me. There's people on here with 10+ years of experience, and I'm sure they get tired of the same old questions, but in the end its all about learning new techniques and sharing ideas. I'd bet some of the 10 & over club STILL learns new things on here (probably more specific or advanced things, but thats what RC is here for).

In the end remember my quote below, cause you never DO stop learning until you die! Now just forget about it, and get down to the business (and the reason you came to RC), read and learn about REEFKEEPING. :)

[aLittletank]

and now for another point of veiw


I personaly have always never liked when someone new shows up at work school, church, or yes RC and right off the bat starts wanting to change or dictate how things are done.

larry wrote: crap, you have 20 posts to your credit. What the hell community are you talking about?

I've seen this over and over again in my time as an internet user/forum adminstrator. People lie in the weeds, lurking and taking up resources but not contributing....until a topic comes up they don't like. All of a sudden it's a major intrusion upon their lives. Well, guess what. ****** (edited to allow a sense of community)


after 20 posts exactly how much of the community are you? Enough to demand change?

frankley I agree with what Larry wrote. Sure he could have said it more diplimaticly, for those of us that have been here long enough to remember Larry, being PC was never his style.

all in all it really was not that bad of a comment any way.

maybe you should take it to heart instead of taking it to the court of public opion. :rolleyes:


Allen

[crap]

Originally posted by aLittletank
and now for another point of veiw


I personaly have always never liked when someone new shows up at work school, church, or yes RC and right off the bat starts wanting to change or dictate how things are done.

larry wrote: crap, you have 20 posts to your credit. What the hell community are you talking about?

I've seen this over and over again in my time as an internet user/forum adminstrator. People lie in the weeds, lurking and taking up resources but not contributing....until a topic comes up they don't like. All of a sudden it's a major intrusion upon their lives. Well, guess what. ****** (edited to allow a sense of community)


after 20 posts exactly how much of the community are you? Enough to demand change?

frankley I agree with what Larry wrote. Sure he could have said it more diplimaticly, for those of us that have been here long enough to remember Larry, being PC was never his style.

all in all it really was not that bad of a comment any way.

maybe you should take it to heart instead of taking it to the court of public opion. :rolleyes:


Allen


Dear Allen,

I doubt If I came across as someone brash and demanding. I take great pains to never seem to be like that. I think only you and Northern Reef seem to think that I am here to 'change the world' inspite of my relative newcomer status.

My tone of voice in the post in question has always been one of respect, an attitude of concern and my suggestions are just that... suggestions. Sensitivity is a key issue here.

I hope that 'newcomers' that not barred from suggestions?

Not going to go back to this topic again with you. Pointless.

Have a nice day.

[dc]

Nothing like getting a warm welcome heh. You have to have thick skin to belong to these things anyway. The words of a few can't affect you or there would be no one left. So relax and just quit reading posts that are starting to get under your skin. I don't always follow my own advice, but I try. I lurk a lot and I don't care. The present moderators will let you know if they don't want you here. :rollface:

[Mimbler1]

I have to weigh in with Allen and Northern Reef. You say you take great pains not to seem brash, but your post suggested closing this forum! I lurk on several boards (i.e. rec. harley) where I don't care for the tone, but I gain a lot of knowledge. I would feel it very presumptuous, though, to suggest that they alter their style to suit my preference! My style is to defer to the main contributors to set the style they feel comfortable with, and gain from their postings. In a group where I feel I am posting regularly with information of value, I would feel more comfortable about making that kind of critique.

No flame intended, just my take on the situation.
Mike

[Ninong]

Hi Crap,

Welcome to Reef Central. :)

Sometimes when you post a question in any of the forums, you get more than you asked for. You may ask for a yes-or-no answer and someone may respond by attacking the question, or even the individual for asking it in the first place.

It's just another form of feedback. Some people are just more direct and a bit more abrasive than others from time to time if they have strong feelings about something. Larry has helped many, many people on this board and, every once in a while, he has upset a few people with some of his unrestrained candid comments. Feel free to either ignore comments that offend you or respond in the thread. Opening a second thread to question the Administrators and Moderators of the board has the appearance of criticizing their management of the forum and is not good form, no matter how delicately you word it.

Ninong

[crap]

Originally posted by Mimbler1
I have to weigh in with Allen and Northern Reef. You say you take great pains not to seem brash, but your post suggested closing this forum! I lurk on several boards (i.e. rec. harley) where I don't care for the tone, but I gain a lot of knowledge. I would feel it very presumptuous, though, to suggest that they alter their style to suit my preference! My style is to defer to the main contributors to set the style they feel comfortable with, and gain from their postings. In a group where I feel I am posting regularly with information of value, I would feel more comfortable about making that kind of critique.

No flame intended, just my take on the situation.
Mike

Hey Mike, I think i explained that I should have stated more clearly that I intended to just address the war topic.... not the forum.

Peace man!

[MIKE]

Hey Crap,

I've discovered the wonders of the ignore list. It's a function you can access up at the top of the page. It works great and can help you with anyone that seems to push your buttons.