User Agreement

[JohnL]

I ask all members to read our new user agreement (http://www.reefcentral.com/agreement.htm).

[percula]

Very long, sounds like a lawyer wrote it... (Yall did good! :) ) Anyways... its common sense, and Im glad we dont have to read the thing each time we want to access the board. That is a big benifit, Im guessing newbies will be agreeing to this before they sign on? Once again, yall did a good job. Later - perc

[Playfair]

Wholly Moley! Now I'm afraid to post! I'm afraid to even read posts! lol

I assme it must have been a few that made it necessary to "legally insure" RC like this after 2+ years? That's too bad. It's so... "official" now... I better go put a tie on...

just my .02

[Stark]

God Bless America, and all the attorneys therein

[Fishaholic]

I do not have feelings one way or another about this. I thought Since this has everything to do with ReefCentral and nothing to do with Reefs.org it belongs here. Even moreso seeing how most of the replies came from the Administrator of ReefsCentral.

I hope this is the most hostility Americans show each other during this time of grieving.

ReefCentral thread on Reefs.org (http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=25&t=000707)

Peace:)

[MIKE]

Good job John, it was needed.

[dc]

Gee I'm still not going to read it! Common sense on any BB. Administraters and moderators are in charge! If they pi$$ you off you leave, if you pi$$ them off, you get help leaving. You're gone either way!:D

[TShiff5521]

I dont see why people are against it... Its your board. I don't pay a cent for it. Therefor i have no problems on what you restrict me on. come on people, its FREE!!!!

if i paid for it, it'd be a different story...
Tim

[marieK]

Wow, sorry for the legal necessity of that, but thank you for having this board, I continue to learn alot and appreciate the access to help when I need it.

[bill-e]

John, 2 comments.

1st. "You assume full responsibility for anything you post or transmit, and you grant Reef Central the right to edit, copy, publish and distribute any information or content you post or transmit for any purpose."

I'm no lawyer but the above seems contradictory to me. You claim no responsibility for the content of the UBB, but then you also claim the above rights. IMO, you do anything but read it, and you're just as responsible as the author.

2. Does the above statement give you the right to publish a copyrighted pic, of my tank for instance, I post in a message?

It's one thing to write a disclaimer to protect yourself from prosecution in case there's a problem but I think the above is a bit much.

Bill

[JohnL]

1st. "You assume full responsibility for anything you post or transmit, and you grant Reef Central the right to edit, copy, publish and distribute any information or content you post or transmit for any purpose."

You claim no responsibility for the content of the UBB, but then you also claim the above rights. IMO, you do anything but read it, and you're just as responsible as the author.

The very nature of the message board requires us to have those rights.

2. Does the above statement give you the right to publish a copyrighted pic, of my tank for instance, I post in a message?


We are publishing it every time the user retrieves the thread.

[bill-e]

John,

By your reply, I think I must have not been clear with my post. For #1 , I was wondering if it could negate the previous assertions in the agreement that reefcentral was not responsible for content. It seems to me that if someone was going after another user because he/she thought the post was slanderous or something like that. And then discovered that RC moderators had edited the post to remove foul language for instance, or moved it to a different forum, I think they could make the case that RC is responsible. Maybe not, like I said I'm no lawyer

As for #2, What I was referring to was the case where RC might take the content of the thread and sell it to a magazine or something(I hear that's how you got your last BMW:)). I do think the case where text stored on the server gives RC certain rights, but thing linked to your server, as in a picture or whatever isnt really in your posession.
It's all quite interesting now that I think about it. Claiming rights over the content and then no responsibility for the content would make for an interesting episode of Judge Judy :)

[MegaDeTH]

Does the user agreement apply to only new accounts? I never agreed to it when I signed up.

If I need to agree to it to keep my account, will my account automatically be removed after x number days?

I tried to remove my account, but cant find any option to unsubscribe from the board

[JohnL]

Originally posted by MegaDeTH
Does the user agreement apply to only new accounts? I never agreed to it when I signed up.

If I need to agree to it to keep my account, will my account automatically be removed after x number days?

I tried to remove my account, but cant find any option to unsubscribe from the board

It applies to everyone who continues to use the board. If you want us to remove your account, email me and I will be happy to do so.

[cjdevito]

As I said in my email, John, thanks for making the revisions we talked about. You missed one we talked about, though....

"You assume full responsibility for anything you post or transmit, and you grant Reef Central the right to edit, copy, publish and distribute any information or content you post or transmit for any purpose."

The tail-end of that should be changed from "for any purpose" to "for all non-commercial purposes".

Was that just missed? Or will it be staying as written? And again, thanks for your responsiveness on this.

[JohnL]

Originally posted by cjdevito
Was that just missed? Or will it be staying as written? And again, thanks for your responsiveness on this.

Hi Charles. It was not an oversight.

[cjdevito]

It was not an oversight.

Oh. Alright then. One last sally to make my case.

In email to me earlier you indicated whom you modelled your UA after (I thought you mentioned it here, too, but I no longer see it? I'll refrain from naming them regardless). The people you based your UA on are a commercial, for-profit, with paid employees company. They pay taxes, run a store and make no bones about being a commercial entity. Their UA makes perfect sense for them in light of them being for-profit.

This doesn't apply to RC though, does it? RC doesn't show a profit or have paid employees, right? If not, the commercial language in that other UA doesn't really fit. "For any purposes" is a very broad brush to paint a not-commercial organization's plans with. For example, you could explicitly spell out limited rights even if for some reason you wanted to avoid the catch-all phrase of "for all non-commercial purposes." You could have the UA cede the limited rights to various things that are neccessary to the UBB (the right to publish and distribute user content solely on the RC website, for example).

I completely understand and agree with your desire to have a good UA for RC. Absolutely a good idea. Just not a commercial one like the currently-worded one. I'd like to continue to be a member here, but the UA as written makes that difficult for me.

[bill-e]

John,

I wanted to make this post for the record. There are no hard feelings, I understand you have to do what you have to do.
However, after reading the new User Agreement, I dont believe I can accept your terms. The main point being the part "You assume full responsibility for anything you post or transmit, and you grant Reef Central the right to edit, copy, publish and distribute any information or content you post or transmit for any purpose." I would agree if the last part read "for non-commercial purposes"

In any event, please delete my membership. Furthermore I do not relinquish my rights for any of my posts prior to this date, and do not authorize Reef Central to profit from any of my posts. (as unlikely as that might be :))

Thanks,

Bill Esposito

[Baalz]

WOW,
Are you saying that by not asking to be removed from RC. That all previous material we have posted can be used by RC for commercial purposes? does that include pictures that i have on my site that only get referenced to from a UBB link?

or does this agreement mean from now on..

[JT]

Yo, delete me as well. I, as with many others, do not agree to the new UA.

*huggs and kisses*
- Uncle JT

[clkohly]

I agree with Bill-E. Please remove me from your BB.

[Northern Reef]

I don't relinquish my rights to any of my posts, past or future. I did not make them with the idea of providing profit to anyone (not even myself), and I won't have them used for that purpose. If that means you need to delete my membership, so be it. If that happens, you will also need to remove any posts made under my two usernames (Northern Reef and Larry M) back to RC's beginning.

[JohnL]

Can I ask what everyone is so concerned about?

I decided it was time to formalize our policies. I took a look at some of the agreements from the big message boards like Yahoo!, CompuServe, AOL and About.

I modeled our agreement after the About.Com agreement here http://home.about.com/gi/pages/uagree.htm

Now I am being accused of trying to steal intellectual property! :eek1: Give me a break!

[Baalz]

Does it make it ok cause about.com uses it?

Listen to the people who are part of Reefcentral.
Aol, Yahoo, etc are in it for money. Is that what Reefcentral is to become?

[normd]

John:

What I don't get is, you say:

"You acknowledge that Reef Central does not control the information available on the message boards"

and then you say:

"Reef Central reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to edit, refuse to post or remove any material submitted to or posted on the chat rooms, message boards or on any other user or member-generated pages. "

If you can edit and have the "right" to edit my posts, then by definition, you are controlling the information on the message boards. If I post something that is offensive, then I have no problem with you deleting my post - I deserve it. However, what does "edit" mean? I don't want ANYONE changing my posts - I take responsibity for my posts, but I don't want my name on ANYTHING that someone edits on my behalf with my name still on the post. What I write is NOT TO BE EDITED BY SOMEONE ELSE.

Unless you modify the agreement regarding your right to edit my posts, I will no longer participate on this board. Delete what you want, but do not edit my post.

This agreement is consistent with the heavy-handedness I've observed lately and I find it disappointing. I would also think it would have been appropriate to notify the users more obviously that the agreement was changed instead of finding it in a forum I rarely frequent.

Norm:(

[SPC]

John, I think all we want is an explanation for this one clause being in there. If RC is not a site for profit then why would this need to read this way?
Steve

[JohnL]

I made some changes to the agreement based upon the concerns voiced here and elsewhere.

Please take a look and let me know if this new agreement is acceptable.

http://www.reefcentral.com/agreement.htm

[Northern Reef]

Hey John--I guess some of us are a little gun-shy over this issue since you saw fit to post a new user agreement. It reeks of a project on the horizon, so to speak. Seems to me the clause in question is paragraph #4:
Unless otherwise noted, the materials used and displayed on this web site, including but not limited to text, software, photographs, graphics, illustrations and artwork, video, music and sound, and names, logos, trademarks and service marks, are the property of Reef Central and are protected by copyright, trademark and other laws. Any such content may be displayed solely for your personal, non-commercial use. You agree not to modify, reproduce, retransmit, distribute, disseminate, sell, publish, broadcast or circulate any such material without the written permission of Reef Central.


I'm no attorney, but personally, I don't see the need for this clause to be in there at all. If there is a need, then "non-commercial" needs to be defined. The phrase which I object to (and find confusing) is: Unless otherwise noted, the materials used and displayed on this web site, including but not limited to text, software, photographs, graphics, illustrations and artwork, video, music and sound, and names, logos, trademarks and service marks, are the property of Reef Central and are protected by copyright, trademark and other laws.

That statement sounds ominous. The next one: Any such content may be displayed solely for your personal, non-commercial use. really doesn't make a lot of sense. If by that you mean, "we keep it here to educate people", then why not just say that. I doubt you would be met with much objection.

The next sentence:You agree not to modify, reproduce, retransmit, distribute, disseminate, sell, publish, broadcast or circulate any such material without the written permission of Reef Central. appears to mean that we can't even edit our own posts without fear of repercussion.

John, when I ran RC I asked for and recieved voluntary legal counsel of a very valuable nature. I would recommend if you feel the need to revise the user agreement that you post a thread in the lounge asking for the same. I'm sure you will get a few offers of help.

[JohnL]

Originally posted by Northern Reef
Hey John--I guess some of us are a little gun-shy over this issue since you saw fit to post a new user agreement. It reeks of a project on the horizon, so to speak. Seems to me the clause in question is paragraph #4:

OK, I'll strike that section all together.

[LiquidShaneo]

Were you planning on letting the rest of us know that you even made a change to the User Agreement? I saw *no* post about it on the main board and on chat last night I find out from a 3rd party that's not even directly affiliated with RC.com that major changes were made. In the future, if changes are going to be made to the User Agreement which directly affects all the users, *please* post something about it on all the forums and keep it anchored to the top. I, like many RC.com users, have a direct link to the main discussion forum and I would not have even thought to check around to see that it has been changed.

Shane
(aka "liquid" on chat)

[JohnL]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Were you planning on letting the rest of us know that you even made a change to the User Agreement?

Yes, I was. Unfortunately, someone posted a link to the agreement on Reefs.Org before I had a chance to even review what I had prepared with the other moderators here.

I think we finally have an agreement that the great majority of our members will accept. I plan to email all the members shortly.

[percula]

The new user agreement is much better than the first, the changes felt nessesary to change have been done in a tasteful and concerned matter. All the "licensing" stuff is more clarified, and sounds much better than before, seeing that it is pretty much not even there anymore. I still support RC! Its a great asset! Once again, good job mods, yall spend alot of time on this... - perc

[slimytadpole]

The editing clause that so many people are complaining about is standard on any board. If someone were to write, say, "Slimytadpole is an A******, and he axe-murdered his entire family", assuming A****** was actually spelled out, the bulletin board replaces it with ********. That's editing. Some cursing won't get filtered out, and will have to be manually replaced by a mod. Also, RC could end up getting sued over slander for the last part of the above sentence. And that would entail? Editing!

Also: Editing posts to remove cursing, slanderous material, and the like does not imply responsibility for the posts. It only means the admins are making a judgement call that something is inappropriate for the forums. It essentially says that the mods will try to keep the forums clean, but ultimately, if you have a beef with something that someone said, take it up with the author of the post. Obviously, if a mod edits a post, the moderator becomes responsible for the modified version of the post. I would fully expect such a clause in any user agreement for a free service.

[jameso]

Slimy:

That makes good sense. The board software automatically edits posts already, so nothing there is changing.

If the moderators edit a post, then they should be responsible for the content of that post. They are materially changing the post and could be changing its meaning unwittingly, so it would be unfair to hold the original poster responsble for the new edited post. When a post is edited by a moderator or administrator, it should clearly state:

"This post was edited by blah blah on blah blah date."

Just my 2 cents
James Wiseman

[JohnL]

Originally posted by jameso
If the moderators edit a post, then they should be responsible for the content of that post. They are materially changing the post and could be changing its meaning unwittingly

James, the only time a moderator edits a post is to remove profanity or other offensive comments. It is a very rare occurance.