Sorry Club - For I Have Sinned

[SRA4031]

Yes, I went to A/C. We all know they screw you there on pricing, (pretty much, if someone haves it anywhere in the US, it is cheaper, even if you pay shipping costs) but when they talk to you like an idiot and then expect you to think they are doing you a favor, it is all I can stand.

If it was not for Chris Richards, and Tim they would go out of business. Everyone else acts like you are an idiot, and talks down to you, and they are not bashful about telling you they rip you off on profit margin because they do not have as much competition in the immediate area.

Sean, open an EB on this side of town.

[aquaman67]

I was acutally in there the other day (took the kids to the Zoo)and I talked to two different people and they were alright to me.

I didn't buy anything and asked maybe 10 questions about some corals and starfish.

Both people I talked to took their time and answered my questions to my satisfaction. They told me their common stars weren't reef safe and recommended I not get one...

I really think the time of day and how busy they are has a lot to do with it, it shouldn't but, hey everyone is human...

[SRA4031]

You must have talked to the two I mentioned.

Long story, but I was pretty much insulted. They did not have to act the way they did towards me, especially since I called first, told them what I was wanting to do, and they said come on down.

Alot of advice I have gotten from them anyway was not good, like float and dump a fish instead of acclimating them. (This advice was not given by the two I mentioned above). Tim and Chris Reynolds are good about giving advice, and instructions, and taking time with you.

If AC wanted to talk it out, I could be back. I do hate they lost my business due to they are close, and I will miss talking to the two I do like.

[SRA4031]

By the way, how was the zoo?

[Countzer0]

yeah i stopped in today ... just hapened to be in da hood and needed some mollies to cycle my 55g octopus tank. I descided to go with mollies instead of damsels so that the damsels wouldn't pick on and stress out the octopus when he got here ... plus the mollies will be something to look at in the mean time and a good source of food once the octo get here. WEll i was told a) that I should be using damsels and i was wasting my time.... and b) "you know its not easy keeping an octopus" ... I have not been going there as often as i used to due to a certain LFS opening right down the street :) ... and i have noticed that when i was in AC spending money every 3 days they were all so nice and helpfull ect ... and since i havn't been there in like a month or so its been the cold shoulder. but i will say that the owner (can't remember his name and one other guy (don't know his name either)) may be the same guys you are talking about goldeneagle have always been nice to me or at the least helpfull. Ohh well just throwing in my 2 cents. Also let me add there is a new store opened in Franklin called FINS ... the guys that run it used to work for AC or something ...don't know the whole story .... they don't have alot of stuff mostly just fish ... but they have been very nice to talk to .... friendly ect ...

[Ferguson]

Not to jump too quickly on the "I hate AC" bandwagon, but they had their third strike with me today. First, about a month ago I bought some of thier premium live rock. It was expensive, but also some of the prettiest, must crusted over rock I think I have ever seen. When I got home, I noticed it smelled bad, but put it in anyway. After two days, the whole are around the tank stank. (hey I'm a poet). I ended up throwing out two of the larger pieces because I couldn't get the stink out. Then I had two situations where they told me one thing on the phone, and when I made it all the way out there, things had changed (once with a price issue, once with availability.) I'm all for second chances, but today was their last strike. It is too bad, because I'm all for competition, which keeps EB on their toes (LOL). After today, I will either be getting stuff all my stuff from EB or online (both of which are easier for me anyway. If AC wants my business, they will definitely have to prove they have changed their ways.

Dang it, now I'm all wound up again....

[aquaman67]

I always like the Zoo. They added a bamboo forest that was kinda cool.

Since my kids are 14 now, they don't get so excited anymore.

Yeah Dad, Zebra, seen it...

[rcmike]

I go to both stores and am not ashamed of it. I also order many of my supplies online. The way I see it is that the money I save on supplies gives me more money to spend on corals and fish in the lfs.

Contzer0, what kind of octo are you getting? I had a bimac for a while and it was awsome. It was cool to watch it catch crayfish. It is a shame they have such short lifespans though. You might want to check out http://www.tonmo.com if you haven't already. If you have any questions about them maybe I can help. One day I want to get another.

[reewik]

Originally posted by Ferguson
Not to jump too quickly on the "I hate AC" bandwagon, but they had their third strike with me today. First, about a month ago I bought some of thier premium live rock. It was expensive, but also some of the prettiest, must crusted over rock I think I have ever seen. When I got home, I noticed it smelled bad, but put it in anyway. After two days, the whole are around the tank stank. (hey I'm a poet). I ended up throwing out two of the larger pieces because I couldn't get the stink out. Then I had two situations where they told me one thing on the phone, and when I made it all the way out there, things had changed (once with a price issue, once with availability.) I'm all for second chances, but today was their last strike. It is too bad, because I'm all for competition, which keeps EB on their toes (LOL). After today, I will either be getting stuff all my stuff from EB or online (both of which are easier for me anyway. If AC wants my business, they will definitely have to prove they have changed their ways.

Dang it, now I'm all wound up again....

You must have been really mad to throw that rock away. the rock that usually comes in is very fresh. You really need to cure that rock and all would have been well. lots of circulation will get the "stink" out! Next time you throw rock away give me a pm...LOL

[Ferguson]

I was told the rock was cured. I tried to cure it, but didn't really have anywhere around the house where I could cure it and the funk wouldn't offend. The part that made me mad was when I asked about it and they told me that the rock won't affect my tank even if it hadn't been cured. I may be new to this hobby, but I am intelligent enough to know that anything you put into a tank can change the system. grumble grumble grumble....

[reewik]

For future. i am sure the tank you bought came with a standard light. if not just get a cheap one and buy a plastic container from Lowes or the depot. Put the ruck in there with salt water and a good pump. of course if you have an extra skimmer that could help. Just fyi, I too got a stinky one, it came from EBAY. Mine did cause so diatoms but gone now.

[fishdoc11]

I allways assume rock is not cured no matter who I get it from or what they say about it. If they say it is cured you can usually still be guaranteed of a small NH3 spike followed by a large NO2 spike. The last rock I recieved that was "cured"(which was nice rock by the way and I was very happy with it) took about a month to cure fully in a 29 gal I set up for that purpose. This is probably the safest policy as rock that starts to decompose can lead to nasty problems from ammonia spikes to algae blooms. As far as A.C. is concerned for the most part they are nice people. I guess I have been going there for so long I know which ones to take seriously and which ones not to. I think it is the hobbyist's responsbility ultimately to know what he/she is looking for. It would be nice if all the info we recieved from our lfs's was good advice. Unfortunately this is not the case unless you personally know who you are dealing with. I like to test lfs personel by asking them a question that is not common knowledge and I myself have researched or know the answer to anyway. I just play dumb and wait for the response. If they give me a correct answer or say "I don't know I will ask someone" that is fine. If they give me a bogus answer or say something just to get me to go ahead and buy something I make a mental note not to take advice from that person or even deal with them. After doing this several times you should get a feel for who is shooting you straight and who wants to sell you a grouper for your reef tank.
Chris

[Countzer0]

cool rcmike yeah i posted at tonmo several times .... just starting out so i will have plenty of questions .... i do have my tank 55g and 50lb of live sand my filtration system is a cascade 1500 and i am looking at getting a duel bak pak skimmer? maybe ... but yeah thats awsome glad you had a bimac thats what i plan on getting

[rcmike]

You will probably be okay with the bak pak. Are you getting a baby one or a full grown one? I didn't have the tank covered and he ended up in the sump once. The sump is actually beside this tank(both under a 55gal) and I think he could see the water sloshing around in there.

[Sir Knight]

I will say this, we all have a big advantage now a days. We have resources like reef clubs, websites like RC, newer Books, etc to get reliable information about the saltwater/reef hobby. One of the biggest concerns I have is the impulse buyer
(general statement not intended for any one individual) . Please do the research first. Don't worry that the fish or coral or whatever will be sold before you get a chance to get back to the store, you can always find it again.

I think it is the hobbyist's reasonability ultimately to know what he/she is looking for.

As Chris stated research first buy next. Just keep in mind not all people that work in LFS know all the answers. For that matter none of us do. That is why we are all still learning and making new discoveries.

This has nothing to do with the live rock problem, but I just wanted to keep this in everyone mines.

Ferguson,
Sorry to here about the uncured live rock. Maybe you should have said. Hi my name is ........ and I am a lawyer, do you have any cured live rock ( just kidding)

:beer:

[SRA4031]

If he said that, they would have tied him to the cured rock, and thrown him in the ocean, and we would never get that Lawyer smell out.

Just Joking Ferguson.

[reewik]

Just to clarify. the rock that i got that was a smelly rock is also one of my best looking pieces. That is why I got the one I did!!!! I agree with Fishdoc11... It is all who you deal with no matter where you go.

[SRA4031]

My rock was smelly as well. I took my powerhead and some saltwater and flushed it out getting the decay matter out, and the smell eventually left.

[Oldschooler]

I know I'm late, but I REALLY want to throw two pennies in...

(a) ANY liverock, in my opinion, that looks encrusted and "pretty", is FAR more likely to NOT be completely "cured". I think the reason is obvious- there is more "stuff" to have "die off". When customers ask me "which is the best type of liverock to buy" or "What am I looking for when buying liverock?" I always say "what is it you want to do???" Too many people buy liverock because it's become such a given. Really, do you WANT sponges and anemones? Do you only want the coralline algae? Do you enjoy the surprise of having corals and worms pop up you didn't see when you purchased the rock? Et cetera. Basically, I really don't think it's fair COMPARING rock by sight, as just because a rock isn't heavily "encrusted" DOESN'T mean it isn't PERFECT for someone else. Sean and I try to carry the less-encrusted stuff ON PURPOSE, so there is, by and large less die-off. If someone wants something straight from the Ocean, we refer them to TBS, etc.

(b) On Fins... Tim Davis, the owner, did not work "for" the Critter, but rather, was their best customer. He was/is "the Fish Guy"- their main tank maintenance dude. He *does*, however, have at least two ex-Critter employees that work for him. The gossip is that AC is backing Fins with money, but I'm told by MANY people that Tim owns it. Period. Either way, and not from a "bashing" standpoint, but rather a purely "business" one, I'm happy about Fins. It can ONLY pull great customers from the AC, regardless of who owns it, AND-- Sean and I both ADORE Tim and his staff. In other words, we FULLY endorse Fins from the word "go", and you will probably see their business cards in our store (when they get them printed) in the near future. Bottom line: Tim has ALWAYS been a cool guy, and Russ and Dave, who used to work with me and Sean at AC, are all class, too. Now if only Chris Richards would go and work for them... LOL

I, personally, don't give a rat's patootie how large a store is or how long it's been around- it's the PEOPLE who "make" the store. Case in point: I send people to the Critter ALL THE TIME (if I don't have what they need or the Critter would have something better or more appropriate), but I am cautious to ALWAYS recommend them to Chris Richards or Eben. Always. Just my opinion, but had to share it.

OH, and thanks, everyone, for supporting LFSs AT ALL. I know it's easy to buy everything on-line, but we really do need brick-and-mortar stores for our mental well-being. LOL

~Roberto

[Oldschooler]

Ooops... I forgot the MAIN purpose of posting on this thread... I don't think it a "sin" to shop at the Critter. They still have their purposes. I just don't think they are all saints and angels, but who amongst us are? LOL So many of the reef club members, or even just customers at-large, think Sean and I are going to become irate if we accidentally learn someone is buying from AC, and this just simply isn't the case. As I've mentioned a million times (and we have witnesses!), we send people there PURPOSELY almost every single day. We just send them only for things we don't do as well as they do. LOL But isn't that fair??? :)

So no, Goldeneagle, thou hast not sinned! :)

[Ferguson]

In defense of AC, I really have very low opinions of most pet stores. I have been visiting LFS's for 12 years now in four different states. I uniformly find stores that a) don't know how to care for the animals, b) sell to anyone with cash, c) are arogant, and d) have terrible business models. The only thing worse is to find a good LFS store, which seems to always be run by a person who loves fish (and often reptiles), but has no business sense and cannot stay in business.

The AC rubbed me wrong when I first visited six years ago (looking for reptiles) for while they were more knowledgable than most, it was clear they were the only game in town and they knew it.

As for being knowledgable about the hobby, I agree that everyone is responsible for themselves, if brick and mortar LFS's are going to make it, then giving bad advice cannot be allowed. The net cannot be beat for convience or price, so LFSs need to focus on their relationships and accurate, professional advice. And finally, in a hobby as expensive as keeping coral reefs, stores that give bad advice run dangerously close to comitting fraud. Maybe a quick call to consumer affairs may help....

Only thing worse than a cheap lawyer is an angry cheap lawyer.

[SRA4031]

Loved that last line

[SRA4031]

LFS's needs to learn that this hobby has taken off considerably.

Could you imagine if the LFS priced closer to the net how their customer base would increase.

I can order from Dr. Foster's, pay shipping, and still save money, and that is on one item, addtional items are pure profit. I was not shocked when AC told me they mark things up 50% since I can save 25% ordering form a national retailer. This is why they do not have the potential foot traffic they can have. They whether make let's say $10 profit on selling one thing than $5 selling three things. They want to make the highest profit on one item than volume sell.

Yes I agree specialized stores sometimes arrogant, and for a long time I thought it was a job requirement there. Chris Richards (not to be confused with the owner Chris) and Tim is the exception. I know I have griped alot about AC, and stired the pot some, but I do want those two to get credit for their service, and maybe the reason AC can stay in business.

[kev-dog1]

Some very wise people participating in this thread, I especially like the contributions of fishdoc, ferguson, roberto and joe wall

My 2 cents...It takes a lot of different types of folks to make up this big world of ours, some you like, some you don't. I've been going to the critter for 6-7 years and enjoy dealing with many of their employees - Ken and Wes - to name a couple. But there are others who I avoid - no names please. Find someone you click with and develop a relationship with them, whether it's at AC or EB or wherever.

And what they charge is THEIR business. They are fools if they do not charge what the market will bear. Any retailer is just trying to make a profit. Look at it this way...You're not gonna find many people who will say "Oh I don't need THAT much money Mr Boss, just pay me half that". Same goes for any specialty retailer, it's all supply and demand, and maximizing opportunities. If you don't like their prices, don't buy it...that's the demand part of supply and demand. They'll figure it out or starve trying.

And somebody earlier sad, and I agree, with so many resources like this forum and countless other pools of information, it is the buyer's responsibility to know what he wants and needs.

Sorry for that little rant...ooh I feel much better now :)

[SRA4031]

Actually what I said in my previous post is if they did not charge so much of a mark up, then they would have higher sales, hence higher profit margin. I never suggested they make less of a profit. Yes what they charge is their business, but with those prices the need to be putting customer service as their number one priority, not how much money they can get from you.

As far as finding someone you click with, it is not the customers job to "interview" the employees, it is the owners, and it is not the customers place to learn that employees job. Yes there is people out there that no matter what they do to help us, we just do not click, but a business owner should not allow there employees to be rude and arrogant.

What everyone has pretty much said in this post is we do not like to be treated as if we are their inferior, and we do not like to be taken advantage of. If we by one pound of lace rock, we want the same service we would get with an entire tank set-up (of course not the same time), and we want to feel our business is appreciated.

[Oldschooler]

Thanks, everyone, for keeping this thread sane and polite! LOL

Also, the only other thing I need to add, especially to Goldeneagle, is... It's REALLY difficult to explain this, but... although it *seems* LFSs gouge the consumer, there are some points you may not know or consider: For one, many of these on-line retailers are selling at least some of their inventory at a loss or darn near it. I cannot BUY many of the staples of this industry any less expensively than "you all" can, even though I have a half a dozen "distributors" that are *supposed* to sell to me "wholesale". This is why I don't have a huge selection of protien skimmers, wet-drys, cannister filters, calcium reactors, etc. The on-line guys hope to make pennies off of each item -enabled by having relatively NO overhead- but they hope to move INSANE volumes of product. Some go out of business trying to make even such a low margin, such as (I think-) "That Fish Place" (or whatever it was called). In other words, just because there are "x" number of "Foster's and Smith"s out there, does NOT mean they are making even one thin dime in profit. Nevertheless, the damage they do to the economy in general and retail fish stores in particular is IMMENSE. Everyone of us thinks that the lowest price "out there" is what the product is truly "worth", and anyone charging more is ripping us off. And this is a shame, because frankly, it is not necessarily TRUE. Just because I sell a Honda Accord worth $20K in the paper for $15K does NOT mean that anyone selling the same car for more is "ripping people off". It ONLY means I was in some unique position to take less for what I had. That's the long and short of it. I may have stolen the dad-gum thing for all anyone knows! LOL

Alsoooo... Consider the rent in a retail establishment, PLUS the electric bill, water bill, insurance, payroll, etc. Many of these product "wholesale to the public" guys online are simply renting the cheapest warehouse in the seediest part of their town and trans-shipping truckloads of boxes of drygoods with the help of a half dozen illegal immigrants. Most (but certainly not all) do not have to spend the huge amounts of money that EB and AC do on water, loss of livestock, electricity, trained staff, etc. It's really not fair, if you look at all the facts, to say that LFSs are charging too much. They HAVE to charge what they do. Really. And anyone that isn't convinced by this "short-for-ME" post is welcome to see me in person- I can DEFINITELY persuade you face-to-face! LOL

*sigh* I know I "talk" too much, but I have soooo much to say!!!:)

~Roberto

[SRA4031]

There is alot of cost involved on a retail establishment, I agree. I know this as a business person myself, which is why I am not operating a store front right now. I did not have too much of a problem with that, it was how I was treated and handled. If I was treated with respect, then I would have decided to sell or not to sell the Favia to them, but when I came up with a counter offer to their offer, which I thought was quite reasonable, I was pretty much called an idiot.

My customers are my "best friends", and I will not settle for anything less than treating them that way. Well I expect the same kind of service when I visit someones establishment, and when I have just spent $1000 in a month there, I do not cotton to being talked down to. Two things a customer demands that AC needs to understand, quality (which I have not really have had too much problems in that), and customer service.

I am the customer, just appreciate that I came in even if it was to look right now.

[SRA4031]

P.S. If AC would just understand that I would visit them again, no problem. Bottom line, if I am giving them my money, I want respect, nothing more, nothing less. I knew they was high, but the service I got from Chris Richards and Tim, I did not mind it. If they charged Dr. Foster's prices I would have still gotten ticked off.

If Ken, or the owner got on this forum and said sorry for the misunderstanding, or we did not mean to talk down to you that way, or even if we crossed paths and said I hope we did not upset you we still value you as a customer, I would be back in. I may even take their offer as well, just do not insult me or talk down to me, there are other avenues out there, i.e. wait till reef club meeting when I am at EB and get what I want then.

We all bashed AC in this thread some, but I think everyone will agree, we can deal with alot if we feel our business is appreciated.

[Chubstud]

Originally posted by goldeneagle
P.S. If AC would just understand that I would visit them again, no problem. Bottom line, if I am giving them my money, I want respect, nothing more, nothing less. I knew they was high, but the service I got from Chris Richards and Tim, I did not mind it. If they charged Dr. Foster's prices I would have still gotten ticked off.

If Ken, or the owner got on this forum and said sorry for the misunderstanding, or we did not mean to talk down to you that way, or even if we crossed paths and said I hope we did not upset you we still value you as a customer, I would be back in. I may even take their offer as well, just do not insult me or talk down to me, there are other avenues out there, i.e. wait till reef club meeting when I am at EB and get what I want then.

We all bashed AC in this thread some, but I think everyone will agree, we can deal with alot if we feel our business is appreciated.

If its so easy start your own store!

[O'Coralman]

My first post.....I agree with clubsud... eagle(funny eagles lead not follow)start your own store...but, first get your facts straight when you post and tell the truth as to what "actually happened ".You tried a fast one and they, The Aqautic Critter( see its not hard to spell), would not go along with your c**p. You see I was standing near by when you started your double talk and saying that you called ahead....then changing things when you got there....and then posting a bent story and you know that to be true. the Critter folks won't respond because they did'nt do anything wrong. Why don't you Emerald Bay(not hard to spell either) boys or cronies as you are acting....stop the smear campaign. The prices at A/C are not higher, they are lower. That is untill one of the Bay boys calls A/C to "fish-out" prices. They are wise to all your stuff. The MTRG....how about the EM boys. Now come on and throw all your kids stuff my way...thanks to the last poster who also sees the truth. You guys from the Bay have hijacked the TN forum and alot of us do not like it. PM your bs please......it saves bandwidth.

[Sir Knight]

TO ALL MTRC MEMBERS,
I am requesting that none of you respond to this thread and the last two posters. As you can see from their posts they are just trying to stir up trouble in our forum and have our RC privileges revoked.

Just an FYI I am looking forward to meeting all of you at the next meeting and am looking forward to being the Vice President (If elected) of our club

Sincerely,

[fishdoc11]

Good call Joe. We have been through this before and I think everyone knows what to do/not do.
thanks, Chris

[SRA4031]

I look forward to your leadership Joe, you have my vote.

[kmk2307]

[flamealert]

[Oldschooler]

True words, all. Besides... Old posters who have been banned *could* re-register and post from a computer at the freakin' library. If someone was complaining that had, say, one hundred or more posts, it would be *one* thing, but "one" post does not a contributing member make...

Flames averted, yay!

~Roberto

[O'Coralman]

Sorry Robert.......not I am an old poster. I got fed up as have others, with your hijaclking this forum. Have you bothered to notice the same FEW posters that are left to this forum.....the others have "moved on". I too will....but not after PM ing the moderators as to my dismay over the EB gangs practices. If there is not problem with the Critter then whats up with A. Critter Killer as a username? Mr. Wall where were you when this thread got started? Why worry of your RC rights now?Why did you not jump in at the start with concerns....unless your agenda too is to bash A/C. Why is it that when someone speaks well of the Critter do you others then chime in with a load of negative stuff? The Moderator who replied to this thread is right You EB ers knowand allow, only your view........why DO you slam posters who do'nt kiss the feet of the Bay. Robert you are as your rep goes and alot of us know you as the one who is.......rude. I have seen you handle customers, and that is why I spend my money elsewhere and your banter in postings validates this. You should think before saying "I quit". You made the mistake do not hold A/C at fault for your trail...you blazed it Looose the 'tude dude...and maybe others besides your EB boys can use this forum. The truth shall set you free.....but first it my make you mad.........deal with it like a man.

[Sir Knight]

Reported post to the mods.

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[Chubstud]

Sounds like you people there in Tennessee have some real problems. I was just trying to get some answers about ATS design and operation from someone named CWA46. I thought he posted here?

I'll be sure to keep my opinions to myself in the future, as it seems you have very thin skin down there.

[Ferguson]

As one of the original complainers, I am sorry if I violated any rules or offended. I have now read the user's agreement and I don't believe I or anyone else intended, or in fact did, violate its terms. I have participated in forums on other sites and participants often exchange information and experiences at stores of interest. No one does this for pecuniary gain, but as a service to others who participate in the hobby in question. In addition, owners of these stores often watch the boards and find ways to better serve their customers.

If sharing such experiences violates any codes of conduct, I hope the moderators of this forum will clarify this. And again, if I have offended anyone in either Nashville or Seattle (???), that was not my intent. It is my hope that AC, EB, and every other LFS in Nashville will work hard to provide better customer service and education.

I promise to limit my future posts to asking for help with my limited knowledge of corals and chemistry.

[Sir Knight]

John ( Ferguson),
Sorry if this is not your first name. I agree with you that from the original posts to the last posts of a week ago I don't believe anyone has broken any part of the user agreement. What I have read were people voicing their opinions about two of the local stores (AC and EB). This is called vendor experience, just at a local level.

One of the LFS commented with explanations of their pricing, again no violation that I can see. I have seen this type of rebuttal in many other threads here on RC.

The posts of the last two days in my opinion do violate the user agreement (abusive, harassing, defamatory). This is the reason that I reported this post today to the mods and also requested yesterday that people not respond.

We need to let this thread die or request that it be closed. I think everything that needed to be said has been said.