10K vs 14K vs 20K MH bulbs

[fishdoc11]

Hey Guys/Gals,
I am debating about what bulbs to replace my old Hamilton 10K 250 watters with. Thanks to those who have allready volunteered to let me see their tanks, also those who I've allready seen. I am currently considering Ushio 10K, XM 10 K, Hamilton 14K, or possibly a 20K bulb(maybe Radiums). I also have not ruled out 12K bulbs. The reason I want to switch is my corals have very good growth rates but the color isn't what I would like it to be. I have 2 55 watt PC atinics(wish I would have gotten 2 VHO). I am also considering possibly adding 2 VHO's if I go with 10K's. What do yall think?
thanks, Chris

[EvilMel]

So we have talked about this before, BUT...

I like the look of my 20,000K german radium bulbs (stand alone, with no actinic supplements). I think it gives off the kind of color you see with tanks on TV or display tanks.

I have to say though...I do still sacrifice some of the color of people who use actinic supplements. But my bulbs give the corals a much better color than my 10,000K's ever did and I had atleast 2-3 kinds of bulbs (including Ushios).

But here's an example of my one problem with my bulbs:
I have some "blue" zooanthids that in my tank appear kinda greyish, maybe a little blue. When I sell people these frags I tell them that it doesn't look super blue in my tank. But recently someone told me that the zoos looked turquoise in their tank.

So I am still sacrificing some color, but it's a trade off. I'd definately go with 20K vs 10K though.

(Chris has seen my tank so he knows what I am talking about).

[fishdoc11]

Thanks Mel,
Those zoos actually came out better under PC's. In fact all of my zoos that I have moved under PC's have much better color than they did under MH. I forgot to mention I have Hamilton Magnatek ballasts. I was under the impression these would not fire 20K bulbs but apparently they will, at least according to Hamilton. I had mentioned that they wouldn't in coversations with Mel and easttn.
thanks, Chris

[Sir Knight]

Hey Chris,
See my comments in East Tennessee. Here is the link
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=341379
The radiums are hit and miss without pulse start or HQI. I have found that for some reason 400 watters have a better rate of working with regular MH ballasts. Don't know why. It may have something to do with the wattage. I still use the pulse start ballasts with these bulbs.

Hope this helps
:beer:

[fishdoc11]

Thanks for the input Joe. I just read your comments in the east tenn forum also. Do you think XM 20K's will work ok with my ballasts? Also do you think this will look too blue with the 2 55watt PC atinics? I had just about come to the conclusion that I could run 10K's and install 2 VHO's in addition to my pc atinics and get the best of both worlds. Also I have never fed my corals besides the biweekly scraping of the glass,extra selcon and zoe from feeding my fish etc... What do you recommend feeding and how much do you use? I tried DT's awhile back and thought I got a little more algae growth but this could have been in my head.
thanks for the help, Chris

[fishdoc11]

Joe,
Also what is your opinion about par. Those bulbs have very low par values according to JB NY's tests compared to the 10K's.
thanks again, Chris

[Sir Knight]

Your ballasts (if you mean standard ballast) will run the XM bulbs and that is what the company recommends. I have run them on pulse starts and they worked fine. I would not run them on HQI ballasts. I think they will run at to high of a wattage and could blow up.

The advantage of the 20000K is you don't need to supplement. Even if you use the 10000K bulbs you really don't need to supplement. The only reason you may add the actinic's is for your own viewing. If you do supplement with the PC's it may look real blue. I'm not the right person to ask about blue color because for me the bluer the better.

DT' is really of no use for SPS corals. They don't eat it.

I have used golden pearls once a week. The other food I used was Cyclop-eeze (frozen) added some clams, crab and shrimp, put it in a blender so it was almost a liquid then put it in the freezer. I would feed this stuff twice a week. That's is why you need a good skimmer and weekly water changes. I could see the polyps open once I added it. The fish liked it too.
I would use about a 1/2lb of shrimp, clams and crabs with the Cyclop-eeze and I had a 3 to 6 month supply.

[reewik]

So you are going to make some of that food for us...LOL... I have the 10,000 K XM Joe and I too like the blue / white look. For me adding more blue is a must. I have noticed that some of the corals are changing colors and when they really change all the way I will post them. I will post an example to this one here. This cats paw started very pale. As you can see the tips are turning for me. This has been in the tank since about the beginning of the month.http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/4746403202004catspawcolorchanging.jpg

[fishdoc11]

I am going to see a couple of other tanks this week. One with 20K (Radiums I think) and 2 with 10K XM's. This will give me an idea first hand mainly what the 20 K's look like but also the look of the XM 10K's compared to mine. I guess my next question( I know I'm full of them) would be if I decide to go with 20K XM's would I be ok with 250 watters or should I upgrade to 400watt. I have almost all sps in that tank with a few lps and one Deresa(fixing to add a couple of Maximas and Crocea's)on the sand. All my sps are half way up or higher except some Montiporas and a pink birdsnest that did'nt like it up high. I also keep quite a few frags on the sand most of the time.
thanks again, Chris

[rcmike]

Hey Chris,

Mine are 20K Coralviews. I looked at a comparison somewhere and they seemed a little brighter and not quite as blue as the radiums. I had 250w bulbs and changed to 400w bulbs because the 20Ks aren't as bright as the 10Ks so I figured I would get 400w to make up for it.

[Sir Knight]

Chris,
Maximas and Crocea's require a lot of light at 3+ inches in size and they grow fast. Ok not as fast as gigas but fast. The Crocea's are a smaller animal then a Maximas, But in the long term your tank really isn't big enough for these clams.

As for lighting you are right on the border with 250 watters putting these clams on the bottom of your tank which is 20" from the light plus however high you have the lights above the water surface. I am assuming you are talking about the 75 gallon tank, correct. If you move the clams up on the rocks they would do a lot better(half way up or better). Then the 250's would work else I would go with the 400 watters. One concern with the 400 watter's is they do create a lot of heat. You are talking about 800 watts of MH over 75 gallons of water. You may need a chiller to keep the tank cool if you don't already have one.

Also, if you do get the clams put a piece of rock in/under the sand where you want the clams to stay. They will attach to the rock. It you don't they may attach to the bottom of the tank and you will have a problem trying to move them if you need to.

On my SPS prop tanks which were 1 - 240 (4 bulbs) ,
2 - 120 (2 bulbs each), 2- 150 (2 - bulbs each),
1 - 210 gallon(4 - bulbs) I ran 250 watters. I did keep the corals in about 12" of water and the pendants were 6" from the water surface.

Just one more point the blue, purple and for lack of a better term brighter colors we see in are SPS corals come from UV which is on the blue/purple side of the spectrum.

If you guys really want me to make some of my coral food up for you to sample I would be happy to. Just give me a two or three weeks after I move.

Hope this helps

[reefcats]

Just a comment on the clams and light subject...I have 5 four inch maximas under 2 400 watt radiums that 20inches down and are supplimented with 2 250w DE 10k Hqi bulbs for 6 hrs, now on the the other end i have one blue green maxima that only gets a 150 DE 20k bulb at 20 inches, now this little 3.5 inch guy has better color, is growing faster, opens all the time, doesnt wentz when the the fish pass over him, and stays open more at night. Go figure...

[fishdoc11]

I guess I should stick with the 250 watters then. I did'nt realize the heat would be that much different( I have seen charts where 20K's run cooler than 10K's so I thought the upgrade would end up being close to the same). I have also read in Advanced Aquarists Online Magazine recently where it is not UV that causes the blue colors. I have allways thought that too. Of course one article isn't definitive but something to think about. Unfortunately I don't have any room on my rocks for clams. Everything I have read on clams, including Knops book, indicates I have plenty of light keeping them on the substrate. This is another reason the reduced par of the 20K's concerns me. Anyway I really aprechiate your help Joe. I obviously still have alot to think about. Thanks also for your input reefcats.
Chris

[Sir Knight]

Hey Chris,
I did run a little test with UV for myself when I talked to Steve Tyree about UV and coral color. What I did was take two frags that were the same color pale blue from the same parent colony. I placed one under a 250 watt 20000k Radium bulb without any UV filter and one under another 20000k radium bulb but with this coral I used a uv screen (this was the same stuff I used on my greenhouse in the summer) which reduced the UV by 20%. The coral frag under the 20000k bulb stayed pale blue the one under the uv screen turned green. When I took the screen away in about three weeks the coral started to change to pale blue again. This was one experiment with just two frags in a two month time frame. So I don't have the answer just my own observation.

That's what makes this hobby so interesting. It may have just been my coral frags I don't know.

I will say this I have fragged brown corals and put them under radiums (20000k) and they did turn some nice colors in the matter of weeks. UV yes or no? but the 20000k's did help with color, some times just the tips. It may be that the corals like the blue color like I do :)

now on the the other end i have one blue green maxima that only gets a 150 DE 20k bulb at 20 inches, now this little 3.5 inch guy has better color, is growing faster, opens all the time, doesnt wentz when the the fish pass over him, and stays open more at night. Go figure...

This maybe because the clam needed more light then it is getting so it stays open. If I recall growth is from calcium does the tank with this clam have a higher calcium and alk levels or more stable high levels?

I guess if this was an exact science we wouldn't keep learning new things or trying new things

Just trying to help if I can:beer:

[fishdoc11]

Very interesting experiment. That would ceartainly seem to indicate UV does affect coral color especially the "blue tip theory". The best "blue tip tank" I have seen is coralreefing's tank. He runs 320 watts of VHO URI atinics plus 384 watts of PC's over a 150. He has one blue tip Acro from Garf that has 1/2-3/4" blue tips on it. This same frag in my tank has 1/8" blue tips, in reewiks tank and the Ebay display tank with a 250 watt XM and only PC's respectively it also has 1/8" blue tips. The only thing I can attribute that to is coralreefings VHO atinics. This would seem to indicate a high amount URI VHO atinic supplimentation has the same effect as 20K bulbs, at least as far as blue tips. I must admit I am not a huge fan of overly blue tanks. The best color I have seen in pictures is an old picture of Steve Tyrees tank under 20K and 6500k MH with atinic flourescent supplimentation. On the other hand when I saw Mel's tank with 20K's it did not seem overly blue at all. Seeing other tanks in person this week should help me more. I must admit I have made up my mind several times in the past day and am now down to 2 20K 250's or 2 10K 250's with 330 watts of VHO and PC atinics. The crowd now says "what! Chris are you crazy? have'nt you heard everybody vote for 20K's?" I don't know if I'm stubborn, hard headed or just downright stupid but I am still inclined to believe a mixture will be more pleasing to my eye, give me more color and give me more than enough total light. Anyway thanks everyone, especially Joe( I feel like Joe has written an article on "A coral farmer and hobbyist's personal journey through lighting choices aquired by years of experience" in this last day). The debate continues in my head, who knows who will win. Anybody else?
thanks, Chris

[rcmike]

What I have on my 110 is 2 400W 20K coralviews, 1 uri super actinic VHO, and 1 uri actinic white VHO. The funny thing is that when you look at the actinic white bulb it looks pink compared to the others.

[fishdoc11]

I look forward to seeing it. Tritons also look pink compared to other bulbs and they are supposedly a 50/50 bulb. Also the coralvue 12K bulbs look pink if you look at the bulb(which of course is not a good idea). I don't know why that is but I'm sure one could figure it out real quick looking at the spectral graphs.
Chris

[reewik]

I ccannnoot seee, I was llolookijng at my bulllllbb.... !

[gflat65]

I have (1)- 175W MH 12Kover one side of a 55 and (1) Coralife 50/50 VHO with (1) Actinic VHO. I love the color. I agree with Joe about the bluer the better, it's just hard to take photos. I originally started with (2) Actinic VHO, but the concensus around the house was that it might be too blue. There was an auora around anything green or blue. I loved it, but it was kind of hard on the eyes. The flourescence is incredible. You've got a lot more in the white/yellow spectrum to balance it out, so I would think it will really flouresce pleasingly. I'd be interested in seeing it when you get it all set up. I've not seen any MH, PC, VHO combos before.

[Mdwannabe]

OK folks, hate to pester you before I really know you, but this is the largest project I was ever GIVEN PERMISSION to do. It HAS to go right!
As some of you are aware, it’s large, but in unusual directions. The tank is 59�L X 21�W X 31� T. Yes I do have scuba equipment for cleaning purposes. LOL
Lighting I am thinking about is (2) 400W MH (20,000K), (4) VHO Actinic 03 (w/ dimmer), and Moon Lights (white). All computer controlled via X10. Already have X10, actinic, and moonlights.
Programming I was considering would be as follows:

11:30 AM Actinic dim up (~30 minutes to all actinic’s at full power))
12:30 1st MH light off
1:00 2nd MH Light off
9:00 PM 1st MH off
10:00 2nd MH off w/ actinic dim down starting (~30 minutes)
10:15 Moonlights on
6:00 AM Moonlights off (sunlight hits tank around this time)

Opinions?

Thanks for patience:
Rick

[Sir Knight]

Rick,
The 400's will work just fine with that depth.I wouldn't go with anything else. The only problem you may have is light spread. The recommended is 24"x24" per bulb. If you don't mind having low light on each side of your tank then that’s fine. If your goal is all SPS corals then IMO use three 400 watters instead of two. Your lighting sequence looks cool. Just keep in mind that the moon isn't out all the time so you may want some all dark days in your sequence.

Just my 2 cents

[rcmike]

There is a cool moon simulation program that I used for a while when I had mine hooked up to X-10. It is on this site http://cerealport.homeip.net/reef.html

[Mdwannabe]

rcmike:
Used is past tense, if you are no longer using it is there a reason I should be aware of? If reason is not function based, do you want to sell your's?

Joe Wall:
Are you saying the actinic 03's are not required during MH stage, and should only be used to simulate sun up/sun down stage, or should not be used at all? Money dictates only 2 400's can be used, other than dim tank ends is this a problem, and is there a coral that would like to live in these dim areas?

Rick

[rcmike]

I had the X-10 controlling all my lights and they worked very well for several months. Then, for some reason, the lights would come on or go off at the wrong times. I think I have some noise or something in the lines. I have been meaning to figure it out but just haven't yet.

[Sir Knight]

Are you saying the actinic 03's are not required during MH stage, and should only be used to simulate sun up/sun down stage, or should not be used at all? Money dictates only 2 400's can be used, other than dim tank ends is this a problem, and is there a coral that would like to live in these dim areas?

I can answer this in a few ways.

Also keep in mind these are just my opinions and what worked for me.

With the 20000k bulbs you do not need any actinic's. you get all of the purple/blue you need from the 20000k bulbs

If you like the sun up and sundown effect there is no problem using it that I have found. I have not found any difference with coral health with or without the dawn and dusk. (Yes another experiment)

I do like the moon idea just to see all of the things living in the tank that you don't see with the lights on. I used to go into my greenhouse on full moons and look in my tanks, man was it cool. Their were things living in there that I still can not Id.

If I were going to use 20000k bulbs and only 20000k bulbs I would not use the actinic's. I would go with another 20000K setup and run them for 10 hours a day.

You can do just about the same thing as dawn and dusk by Starting with MH-1 , 10 minutes later MH-2 and 10 minutes later MH-3.

I didn't do this on my tanks, all my lights came on at once. Been doing that for about 12 years without a problem.

As for corals that will do well in the lower light area I am assuming you are talking about SPS I would recommend monti's.

I used Pink monti digi on the sides. It was pretty cool The ones that got a lot of light stayed pink the ones that got lower light turned Orange. When I was fragging them for sale. I would tell people that were buying them that color was dependant on light. They would either stay pink or turn orange. Kind of like getting two for one.

The other option would be to set your live rock up directly under the 400 watters which if done right looks really cool. I have done this before, but I don't have any pictures. You may be able to fine some here on RC.

I know a lot of different answers without one right answer. That is because you just have a lot of ways to do it and they all work.

[rcmike]

Yeah, normally I just have my lights come on in the morning and go off in the evening on a timer. I thought the moonlight was neat because I could see things at night without disturbing them with a flashlight. If I ever get seahorses again I may put it on them to stimulate breeding. I read somewhere that they are triggered by moon cycles.

[Mdwannabe]

OK, I am going to follow your (and several others) recommendation and go with the 3 400 watt 20,000 K system. Guess I’ll also have to invest in ceramic bearings in my electric meter :-)
So, here is the question of the day:
Found a guy (on-line), that manufactures outdoor grow lights. He can sell me 3 “Universal� (brand name) M 59 HID ballast's for $19.00 each, while this sounds great will it work? The catalog number is 1110-247C-TC (if that helps). This is a probe start type ballast.
Also found a supplier of Hamilton (brand name) 400 watt 20,000 K bulbs for $49.00 each. Is this bulb as good as any other options I have? I am blissfully assuming a 20,000 K bulb is a 20,000K bulb.
Comparing to better known brands I would save $100.00 or more, really hope my assumption is correct.
Gee….Anyone need 4 brand new URI VHO 03’s, or say 2 Icecap 660 ballasts, or maybe a dimmer for same…..LOL
Thanks:
Rick

[Sir Knight]

Hey Rick,
If I was going to buy a new ballast to run 400 watt 20000k bulbs I would go with a pulse start(M135). This way I would be able to run Radium's, xm's, 10000k, etc. The 6500K bulbs would not run on these ballasts.

I found a thread about the Hamilton bulbs. That may interest you.
You may want to give it a look.

Here is the link

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17822&highlight=Hamilton+20000k

Hope this helps

[Mdwannabe]

Helps me spend more money...LOL
Thanks, guess I will have to continue my search.
Know any sources for used ballast's?
Rick

[Sir Knight]

I would post in the selling forum under want to buy (WTB) and also look in the selling forum under equipment to see if anyone is selling. If you want to know where to get new ballasts at good prices send me am email at joewall@charter.net and I will let you know. I just don't want to post them here.

I don't know of anyone selling used 400 watt ballasts at this time

Sorry,