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Planoi
08/22/2001, 02:19 PM
It is pretty much established that host Anemone need lots of light.

But I find "lots of light" quite subjective, I have been recommending most people over at my board to use either MH (for deeper tank) or PC (for shallower tank), and stay clear of NO.

However several people on my board are showing up saying that they are using about 5 NO bulbs (approx 200w) over a tank 2' high. Occasional feeding.

Unfortunately, they are keeping about 3 anemones in the tank (H.magnifica, H.crispa, S.haddoni) and are reporting great expansion and growth for all 3.

My question is, do you think this is an environment where the anemones will thrive (or survive)?

thanks,

Win

rshimek
08/22/2001, 02:51 PM
Hi Win,

As long as host anemones are well fed, virtually any light regime will do.

As they get progressively starved, they need brighter and more light.

However, anemones expand for a number of reasons and several of them are not good news. If those three anemones are being kept together in a tank, I would suggest that these animals are inflating as an aggressive posture, and are in less good health that might otherwise seem the case.

How long has this situation been going on?

:D

Planoi
08/23/2001, 04:20 AM
I have asked 2 members and this is the info.
Case 1:

Tank:180g, 2' high
Light: 4 NO (40 watt ea.)

H.magnifica - two - 6 months
H.crispa - 6 months
S.Haddoni - 2 months

Case 2:

Tank:180g, 2' high
Light: 5 NO (40 watt ea.)

E.quadricolor - 3 weeks
H.crispa - < 1months
S.Haddoni - 2 months

The member reported that the anemones has increasingly started to reject feeding, which he attribute to recieving sufficient lights - thus less dependent on feeding.

rshimek
08/23/2001, 08:20 AM
Hi Win,

The member reported that the anemones has increasingly started to reject feeding, which he attribute to recieving sufficient lights - thus less dependent on feeding.

Nope.... The anemones are starting to be significantly stressed because there are too many other potential aggressors in the tank. These animals will fight each other and these anemones in this small of a tank will most likely result in all of the anemones in each tank dying.

They always will feed, even in bright light, as this is there way of getting high quality food. They need to feed - there is no option. The light is used to give them supplemental nutrition when good food is not around. So, if they are not feeding, they are seriously disturbed and in trouble.

:strooper:

rayjay
08/25/2001, 09:50 PM
I get puzzled by the "requirements" for anemones as much if not more than the others. Anyone visiting my web site knows that I use only NO lighting over all my tanks. I do use a lot of lights,(8) over my 90g reef, but they are all on timers, so all lights are on together for only two hours.
Dr Ron mentioned that when fed enough, strong lighting would not be necessary. However, I don't feed my Sebae directly at all. The tank gets fed only by the feedings of the fish twice daily.
I'm aware some of this food finds it's way to the anemone, but can't believe it's sufficient to negate the need for lighting.
I don't know the answers, but whatever is working has been working now for 7 1/2 years, the first 1 1/2 yrs were in a 30g with 4 NO's over the tank.
When I bought this creature, I had only the LFS employees for information until I bought a computer 2 1/2 yrs ago. I didn't know they were hard to keep or that they needed specific lighting or feeding.
I don't plan on tempting fate by getting another.

rshimek
08/26/2001, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by rayjay

Hi,

.... I'm aware some of this food finds it's way to the anemone, but can't believe it's sufficient to negate the need for lighting.

It has to be or the animal will die.

All organisms are on an energy budget. Anemones can get income (nutrient energy) from a number of sources - direct feeding, indirect feeding (fish feces, drifting food, particulate material in the water (bacteria mostly)), some direct absorption of dissolved nutrients and zooxanthellae byproducts. Zoox byproducts are basically carbs only, so for growth the animal needs some sort of food.

All of the above sources have to sum to 100% of the needs for the organism to stay at status quo. Less, and it will shrink and my die. More and it grows, and may reproduce.

The fact that a lot of anemones die is reason enough to realize that most folks don't feed there systems enough. And... all the light in the world will not substitute for food if the animal doesn't have a nitrogen source for proteins.

:D

rayjay
08/26/2001, 04:08 PM
Thanks for your reply. The same must apply to my corals as well, as I don't feed them either.

rshimek
08/27/2001, 08:18 AM
Hi,

If they are growing they must be being fed. Probably particulate material from your tanks.

They would grow faster and be in better health if they were fed directly.

:D

sir reefalot
08/27/2001, 11:38 PM
Hi folks!

Not sure if I'm following this link correctly.
I'm assuming by the above statements.

Hypothetically....
That If I had only 1 NO tube running over a 50 gal(just enough to see the creature). As long as I kept a host anemone well fed. It would thrive...?

If this is true... Then how much would you need to feed the above said anemone to equal 100% of the organism needs.
More than common nutrient exports can compensate for?

Reason I ask this.... most the time I read about someone having an anemone. They are constantly flamed for not having enough light to meet these creatures needs. When in fact they may be starving them to death. While trying to sustain there diminish with inadequate light levels. Instead of spending lots of money on light they should be increasing their feedings. Am I hopeless or am I on the right path? Thanks for your time and patience!

rshimek
08/28/2001, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by sir reefalot

Hi

Hypothetically....
That If I had only 1 NO tube running over a 50 gal(just enough to see the creature). As long as I kept a host anemone well fed. It would thrive...?

Yes.

If this is true... Then how much would you need to feed the above said anemone to equal 100% of the organism needs.
More than common nutrient exports can compensate for?

This depends on both the type and quality of the food and the size of the anemone. They need a lot of food. To totally support an 5 inch diameter Entacmaea quadricolor by feeding, I would feed it the equivalent volume of a table spoon of Gamma Foods Lancefish (a higher quality fish food than, for example,
silversides) every other day. More food for bigger anemones such as the carpets and ritteris.

Instead of spending lots of money on light they should be increasing their feedings. Am I hopeless or am I on the right path?

Dead on!

:cool:

Heath Man
08/28/2001, 11:10 AM
Is there not a minimum amount of light needed, regardless of feeding? Surely one can't keep an E.Quad alive indefinitely in, say, a 90G with one NO strip light just by feeding heavily?

JasonD
08/28/2001, 04:17 PM
HeathMan,

I would think that you need enough light to keep the zoothanthalle alive in the animal. With the algae the anenome will die.

Myself I have three 55 watt PC over my 45 gallon ritteri species tank and the animal is doing great.

I agree with Dr. Ron though that you have to feed the thing if you expect it to grow. Unfortunately it takes a little bit of time to get the anenome use to eating regularly since they seem to be starved during shipping. I think they have to adjust.

I think most people aren't successful with anenome's because they don't set up a specific environment for them. Try to make them live in a regular reef, and that can be tough to do with powerheads ready to eat them, and even some fish that will pick on them.

I love my Ritteri and couldn't imagine going without an anenome tank they are that cool.

Jason

rshimek
08/29/2001, 08:34 AM
Hi,

Folks, you are not listening!

The animal needs nutrition, how it gets it is immaterial.

Zooxanthellae basically provide carbohydrate nutrition to anemones and nothing more.

Feeding provides carbs and proteins. This is all the animal needs...

If they are feeding, you can keep all host anemones in absolute darkness until they are bleached whiter than sheets, and they will live just fine. As long as they are fed. The algae are immaterial to the host as long as it gets enough nutrition.

:cool:

sir reefalot
08/29/2001, 09:14 AM
I think folks are really mislead on the lighting issue. That's why we seem so hard headed. I think you struck a very valid point. I am very interested in trying an anemone now. I think with your insight I may now be able to keep one that thrives!

Just think how dissappointing this hobby would become. If not for people like you setting us straight on issues like this. I think your doing a very great service for this hobby. I've worked for a pet store and know first hand how mislead folks can get.
Just wanted to take a moment to say
Thank you.

mr9iron
08/29/2001, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the information Dr Ron. This has cleared up all kinds of questions for me.:D I see an anemone in my future.;)

Erin
08/29/2001, 10:54 AM
Thanks for all the info Dr. Ron!! I'm so glad my little pale anemone can be happy and healthy.

Just a quick question. I know that your book says BTAs like krill, but I'm guessing I should be feeding a varied diet. I feed 3-5 1" krill every two to three days, after soaking them in Zoecon and Zoe for a few days. I just got some silversides last night to see if the anemone likes them. Any other suggestions?

Erin (*_*)

JasonD
08/29/2001, 11:58 AM
Thats real interesting;

I just naturally assumed that without enough light even with feedings the Anenome would die.

I wonder if the same would apply towards SPS's. If you fed your tank enough could you keep SPS's alive say with just NO bulbs?


Jason

Heath Man
08/29/2001, 02:01 PM
I'm listening, and I understand what you're saying. As long as it gets its nutritional requirements met it will live. But here's what I'm asking, while its possible to feed it directly and get the caloric intake it needs, would the death of its symbiotic algae not cause stress or throw the animal off in other ways that would cause it to go off feed and eventually die? It seems odd to me that anemones have such a low long-term life span in captivity if the only thing they needed was adequate food. Dr. Fautin's study showed an abismal record of longevity in captive anemones.

I guess what I'm wanting to absolutely confirm is, aside from the caloric needs that can be met in other ways than the algae, would keeping an anemone in low light not lead to its premature death from stress? Would losing the algae and bleaching it white not stress the animal and cause it to start rejecting foods? Or do you maintain that lighting is completely irrelevant to the success in keeping anemones? If so, what would you say is the leading cause of death in captivity (feeding seems unlikely as most people seem to err on the side of overfeeding their inhabitants, IMO)?

Thank you for helping understand this, I've always been curious about it. :D

Erin
08/29/2001, 02:09 PM
Heath, I think Dr. Ron has already answered that.

He stated:

Feeding provides carbs and proteins. This is all the animal needs...

If they are feeding, you can keep all host anemones in absolute darkness until they are bleached whiter than sheets, and they will live just fine. As long as they are fed. The algae are immaterial to the host as long as it gets enough nutrition.

I think we're just all feeling sceptical because we've heard/read so much about the importance of lighting and zooxanthellae, so we panic when we hear that all we need to do is feed them. :) It seems too easy. :)

Erin (*_*)

rshimek
08/29/2001, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Heath Man

Hi,

...would the death of its symbiotic algae not cause stress or throw the animal off in other ways that would cause it to go off feed and eventually die?

No. It simply digests the algae.

It seems odd to me that anemones have such a low long-term life span in captivity if the only thing they needed was adequate food. Dr. Fautin's study showed an abismal record of longevity in captive anemones.

Daphne has not studied them in captivity. You might be referring the survey done by Joyce Wilkerson and analyzed by me.

It is no surprise they have short life spans in captivity. People simply don't feed the animals enough to keep them alive.

I guess what I'm wanting to absolutely confirm is, aside from the caloric needs that can be met in other ways than the algae, would keeping an anemone in low light not lead to its premature death from stress?

NO!

Would losing the algae and bleaching it white not stress the animal and cause it to start rejecting foods?

NO!

Or do you maintain that lighting is completely irrelevant to the success in keeping anemones?

Lighting is important if people don't feed them adequately. If they are adequately fed lighting is immaterial.

If so, what would you say is the leading cause of death in captivity (feeding seems unlikely as most people seem to err on the side of overfeeding their inhabitants, IMO)?

Your opinion is noted and wrong. These animals need a lot of food. A full grown ritteri to be growing and healty probably eats about the equivalent mass of a Big Mac every week or two.

billsreef
08/30/2001, 06:12 AM
An interesting note on feeding quantities:
I always thought I fed my tanks on the heavy side, untill I found out how much food Ron puts into his tanks ;) Than I felt like I was starving my critters :eek1:

rshimek
08/30/2001, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by billsreef

Hi Bill,

Than I felt like I was starving my critters :eek1:

If that is the case, then you were... :D

Emmitt
08/30/2001, 12:31 PM
Dr. Shimek,

As others have noted, the general consensus in current reefkeeping literature on keeping clownfish host anemones almost always includes "intense lighting". (although I havn't read your book, yet.) :) So just a couple questions, please.

Are there any studies published (by you or anyone) that led to the finding that host anemones will thrive in low light environments provided they are fed sufficiently? That is, have any studies been done or are your assertions based on physiological knowledge of the animal.

I'm curious as to how one determines the health of an anemone once the zoox. has been used up by the animal since color is no longer an indicator. Since it can take months for an anemone to die, what is the longest you've seen one thrive without intense lighting?

I think it's fascinating that after all the flames (and genuine concern) on this and other boards about people keeping anemones in low lighting, that, come to find out, all they need is food.

Tia,

rshimek
08/30/2001, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Emmitt

Hi Tia,

Are there any studies published (by you or anyone) that led to the finding that host anemones will thrive in low light environments provided they are fed sufficiently? That is, have any studies been done or are your assertions based on physiological knowledge of the animal.

No specific studies with host anemones, however there are plenty of studies with other zooxanthellate anemones (including a very nice talk presented recently at MACNA). There is no reason to think that host anemones will react any differently to the lack of zoox than any other anemone.

There are plenty of anecodotal reports of bleached host anemones surviving for very long periods without ever getting any zooxanthellae back. Often one finds pure white "Sebae" anemones offered for sale. These animals will survive indefinitely and grow if fed well (I and others have kept them for well over a year - in my case I passed the anemone to another keeper when I left the firm where the anemone was in a display tank.). They do survive better in the average reefer's tanks if they "color up" with zoox, but survival in these situations still appears dependent upon feeding.

Along the same lines, I have an azooxanthellate Entacmaea quadricolor at the present time. I have it for six months and it is growing, and I expect that soon it will clone. It has not had zoox since I obtained it.

Finally, yes, some of this is based on my physiological knowledge of the animals as well as with discusssions with Dr. Daphne Fautin, who is probably the leading authority on these animals.

I'm curious as to how one determines the health of an anemone once the zoox. has been used up by the animal since color is no longer an indicator.

As with most invertebrates, I would suggest growth or reproduction is an effective indicator of health. An animal that is growing or periodically reproducing - either sexually or asexually - would be accepted by most researchers as being in good health.

Since it can take months for an anemone to die, what is the longest you've seen one thrive without intense lighting?

Personally about 18 months (but it was alive and well when I left the employ of the firm where it was).

I...come to find out, all they need is food.

All you have to do, is to think what the animal is getting from the zoox. As the presenter stated at MACNA, all the anemone gets is "candy bar nutrition." The animals cannot grow, or repair injury, or reproduce with such nutrition alone, as all of these processes require proteins made from some nitrogen source. All they can do is stay alive on their "candy bars."

To grow, to thrive, they need food.
:eek:

One other point, and Tia, this is not directed specifically at you, so don't feel flamed. :D

Anemones are animals. All animals need to feed in some manner. Without appropriate food, EVERYTHING - EVERYTHING else is immaterial. Without appropriate food the animal dies, and all else is moot. It follows that the first rule when keeping animals is provide them with appropriate food. If they have some supplemental food source such as carbohydrates from zoox, that is all well and good, but it is only supplemental, and much more useful food must come from other sources.

:D

Erin
08/30/2001, 03:34 PM
I don't think that's a very good analogy, Dr. Ron. After all, I live comfortably, and certainly grow, with just candy bars!! :D

Erin (*_*)

rshimek
08/30/2001, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Erin

Hi Erin,

I don't think that's a very good analogy, Dr. Ron. After all, I live comfortably, and certainly grow, with just candy bars!! :D

Depends on the candy bars...

Probably a better analogy would be cotton candy.

:D

Heath Man
08/30/2001, 09:36 PM
LOL! :D

Well, I have experienced a "paradigm shift" as Stephen Covey would call it!

Thanks for the info Dr. Shimek. I appreciate your taking time to help others understand. Everyone programs us that we're overfeeding and polluting our systems, and that you should err on the side of underfeeding for better water quality.

I think I'll go feed my fish! ;)

Emmitt
08/30/2001, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the lengthy reply, Dr. Shimek. This is very interesting stuff!:)

All animals need to feed in some manner. Without appropriate food, EVERYTHING - EVERYTHING else is immaterial

Absolutely! I think that would be obvious to everyone. I never questioned that food was important. It was the lack of lighting I had the questions about.

I intend to keep feeding my s. Haddoni (under intense lighting):D

Thanks again,

GSB
09/01/2001, 10:22 AM
Dr. Ron:

You've argued that we should try to recreate the optimum environmental conditions in which animals are found. You've also identified optimum conditions as those areas where the highest diversity or densities of animals are found. Furthermore you've noted that animals will spread to their environmental limits, but the animals living in these areas will not thrive.


Isn't it contradictory then to now condone and even endorse the idea of keeping anemones in marginal sub-optimum low light conditions? Daphne Fautin writes, "These anemones exist only in shallow water....these anemones live at depths of no more than 50 meters, generally in clear water." Her observations are consistent with mine. The majority of host anemones I've seen live in fairly shallow water and receive significantly more light than found in a typical reef tank. Below 40 feet densities dramatically decline and at about 100 feet, one can only find the occasional animal. The deepest anemones I've seen are spread flat as a pancake in an apparent attempt to gather as much light as possible.

If anemones don't need light, why aren't there host anemones in deep water? Why aren't there host anemones at 200 and 300 feet where there's plenty of food, but little light? Seems like the dark zone would be perfect for an animal that has the ability to capture and kill things as large as itself. Why are anemones shallow water animals if photosynthesis is providing no more than cotton candy?

rshimek
09/01/2001, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by GSB

Hi,

Isn't it contradictory then to now condone and even endorse the idea of keeping anemones in marginal sub-optimum low light conditions?

I think that lighting is important to these animals in the real world for one reason. It allows them to get nutrition. If their nutrition needs are adequately met by feeding them, then I don't see any thing wrong with keeping them in an environment that has lower light intensity.

If anemones don't need light, why aren't there host anemones in deep water? Why aren't there host anemones at 200 and 300 feet where there's plenty of food, but little light?

In natural systems their nutrition needs are met by a combination of food, probably mostly fish, and light for the zoox. Both of these are less abundant in deeper water, smaller fish (anemone food )are more abundant in shallow water as that is where their foods are too. The lower limit to host anemone abundance is likely set by a number of factors, and food intake is likely only one. However, if there were sufficient food they would be likely be found deeper.

Additionally, there have not been sufficient quantitative surveys in what might be marginal habitats for us (Daphne's work included) to say what the limits of the anemone distributions are, or why those areas are marginal. When folks go to study anemones they go to those areas where they are most abundant - not the areas where their survival is marginal.

Seems like the dark zone would be perfect for an animal that has the ability to capture and kill things as large as itself. Why are anemones shallow water animals if photosynthesis is providing no more than cotton candy?

First, what else can photosynthesis provide?

Second, the dark zone is perfect for many anemones, the fact that these particular animals may not be found there could be many. I suggest that it is likely that that juvenile anemones probably can't find the foods they need at those depths, and that the adults are also food-limited in most of their situations. Hence, they stay in shallow water because in those areas the zoox provide them with supplemental nutrition. This supplement is basically sugar....to tide them over between real meals.

If they don't have the fish to eat, they certainly need bright lights. But if they have the food, light intensity is secondary.

Green Lantern
09/01/2001, 05:15 PM
Hi Ron, this thread has brought about some interesting discussion on another board. Some of the points made have already been raised here but I'd really like to hear your thoughts on Marting Moe's experiences. I hope I'm not breaking any rules here but I thought I'd paste his comments for you to look at and possibly respond.



Random thoughts. I used to keep many anemones, a dozen or more, mostly carpets, when we had the clownfish farm in the 70's and 80'. We used them to stimultate the clownfish, mostly wild caught then, to begin spawning. Once the pair spawned a few times they would continue to spawn without the anemone. The tanks were kept under low flourscent lighting and regular water changes, about 50% every week or two. Under these conditions the anemones would begin to bleach out in a few months. So we would move then to an outside tank under sunlight when we saw the first signs of color loss, and then move one inside that had been the outside tank for several weeks. The partially bleaced anemones would regain their color in a week or two in the outside tank. We seldom lost one. They were also fed frequently. a bit of shrimp (on pin attached to a stick and placed in the tentacles), and they also picked up some food particles from the clownfish feedings.
So I think good lighting is essential. Also, back then most anemones were kept under "fish tank conditions" and little attention was paid to calcium levels, pH and alkalinity. Usually, in most hobbyist's tanks at that time, calcium was never considered and as long as pH was above 7.8, it also was not a consideration. In my opinion, anemones need a normal calcium level and without it their metabolism is "out of kilter" (not very scientific, but descriptive). Under the right conditions, lighting, chemistry, and nutrition, most anemones can be kept in captivity, pehaps not for a full anemone lifetime (we don't live that long) but at least not for only a few months.MAM

rshimek
09/01/2001, 06:41 PM
Troy,

There is nothing in Martin's statements that are really at odds with mine.

If these animals are kept in low light, they may bleach. This is a problem if they are not fed well. I suspect Martin was neither feeding them enough nor the proper foods.

They need a lot of food. As far as calcium, if they are fed a lot of fish, they get a lot of calcium from the fish - bones and such are seldom excreted. I have kept my female haddoni for over 10 years now, and she is in a tank that I never add calcium to. She by all measures a healthy animal, so I presume she is getting what she needs from her diet.

Incidently, should the point be raised, while I firmly believe lighting is not the end all for these animals, I don't keep mine in the dark, or even poorly lit conditions. They are all kept under normal reef tank light - whatever that is - :D . However, they certainly could be kept healthy under low light.

Green Lantern
09/01/2001, 08:44 PM
Ron, do you think that the feeding, or lack of, is what has made these animals so hard to keep alive?

I'm concerned that people may misinterpret what you are saying and conclude that they are easy to keep. (I know that is not what you are saying). Considering the impact their removal from the oceans has they hardly need to be collected any more than they already are.

Gene Brewer
09/02/2001, 01:52 AM
If they are feeding, you can keep all host anemones in absolute darkness until they are bleached whiter than sheets, and they will live just fine.

Slightly off topic, but I have always wanted to have an anemone and some clown anemonefish. That in itself is one of the main reasons I got into saltwater/reef vs the freshwater tanks I had.

I have been reading everything I can get hold of concerning keeping anemones and there seems to be a concensus among authors that keeping anemones are very difficult and should only be attempted by seasoned aquarists.

Do you think that this train of thought is based on the problems people are having with anemones based on their misunderstandings as well pointed out in this thread? Or are anemones that difficult to keep in a 'standard' reef aquarium.

Any guidance on this matter would be of great help to me (and others it seems).

Thanks Dr. Ron. Keep up the excellent work.

Gene

mengerin
09/02/2001, 02:13 AM
Gene, I highly recommend that you pick up Shimek's book on the subject: Host Sea Anemone Secrets by Dr. Ron Shimek: ISBN: 0-9664549-5-2

Also, searching back within this board will surface a large amount of information on this topic.

Cheers,
Matthew

rshimek
09/02/2001, 12:30 PM
Hi Matthew, [thanks]

Originally posted by Green Lantern

Hi Troy,

Ron, do you think that the feeding, or lack of, is what has made these animals so hard to keep alive?

Absolutlely. The animals have to have appropriate nutrition. It has to come from a combination of zoox and feeding. It is relatively easy to give the animals the bright light the zoox need, but then you still have to feed them some nitrogen source. IF the lighting is not as bright it is still possible to keep them thriving, but they need to be fed quite a bit.

I'm concerned that people may misinterpret what you are saying and conclude that they are easy to keep. (I know that is not what you are saying). Considering the impact their removal from the oceans has they hardly need to be collected any more than they already are.

Indeed, but additionally we need to make certain the ones that we do have live well, and asexually reproduce if possible. We also need to get breeding programs going.

:D

Reef Eco
09/02/2001, 07:54 PM
For what it's worth...

Growing up, I always learned and thought of sea anemones as being master predators with a powerful ability to paralyze unlucky passing animals. I even remember being afraid to be near one, thinking that it would stretch out, sting me, and digest me. Of course, this is all in the mind of a overdramatic 12-year old.

Since then, I've been on a roller coaster of information; however, I try to back everything I read or hear by some sort of biological fact of life that I have stored away in my brain somewhere.

Anyway, everything that Dr. Ron is saying makes complete sense. Remember that your anemone is an animal and not a plant -- light won't cut it alone!

BigLuke
09/03/2001, 06:13 PM
Your opinion is noted and wrong. These animals need a lot of food. A full grown ritteri to be growing and healty probably eats about the equivalent mass of a Big Mac every week or two.



I was curious Dr. Shimek, on what you are basing this recommendation? I note your use of qualifiers such as "probably" and "about" ... does this mean the Big Mac analogy is a guess or is it based on anything published in the scientific literature that I could read for myself?

Thanks!
BL

rshimek
09/04/2001, 10:52 AM
Hi BL,

My value was a guesstimate based on 1) other inverts of about the same mass, and 2) scaled-up information from small zooxanthellate anemones.

There is zippo work done on either the physiology or the population biology of any host anemone, which is why, of course, we are debating these things. Lots of folks have looked at the clownfish part of the association, and Fautin has looked at the anemones taxonomically, but real information on the living animals is not there. A couple of good pH. D. topics, in my estimation.

Anyway, to scale up...

There has been a lot of work done on several species of zooxanthellate anemones - Anthopleura elegantissima, Anthopleura xanthogrammica, and (ya gotta love this one) Aiptasia pallida.

You can go to the literature - probably the best data base would Zoological Record online or on CD-ROM at a large library and do searches on these species. Most of this work has been done in the last decade, so it should show up. You should be able to find the metabolic rate estimates, and mean sizes. From Fautin's work, and maybe the work of some other folks, you can get mean sizes of host anemones, and you can apply across the board estimates - with appropriate fudge factors.

Some of the data are interesting. About 25 years ago, in his doctoral dissertation, Ken Sebens found that the temperate intertidal zooxanthellate Anthopleura elegantissima normally ate well only during one period of the year, during the settlement of barnacles into the intertidal zone. But during that short period it REALLY pigged out. After this it tended to divide, and bide its time until the next year or occasional small feedings on plankton. The algal symbionts basically helped it pass through the winter where there were not incidental plankton.

From these types of studies, one can get values for the relative contributions of food versus zoox, and of values for the total energy budget. Then you have to scale up, and adjust for the higher temperatures of the tropical anemones- which may be metabolizing at rates from 150 to 300 percent of the temperate ones simply due to the Q10 increase in metabolic rates in warmer areas.

From all of this I think you can get an estimate that a large anemone, say one with a mass of about 2.3 kg (=5 lbs) would require something one the order of 100 to 200 g (3-6 oz) of food per week.

Such a value is also consistent with the requirements of some other larger inverts such sea stars, and it is signficantly lower than other large but much more active inverts such as big snails or lobsters, so I think it is a good ball park estimate.

So... that was the basis of my guess.

GSB
09/05/2001, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by rshimek

From all of this I think you can get an estimate that a large anemone, say one with a mass of about 2.3 kg (=5 lbs) would require something one the order of 100 to 200 g (3-6 oz) of food per week.


Dr. Ron:

I understand that this is a "back of the envelope" estimate, but I'd like to understand how you reached this estimate. You say a mass of 2.3 kg, but we're not talking about the animal itself are we? It must be the weight of an anemone as one carries it home in a plastic bag. If that's correct, most of the weight is saltwater, isn't it?

It that's the case, this is a rather large anemone. Assuming most of the weight is saltwater, it must be something like 16-18 inches across. Is that what you based your assumptions on?

If most of the weight is saltwater, the weight of the tissue is going to be a small fraction of this. What would you say? Maybe 5%? Using some of the few scientific articles on anemone nutrition I've been able to find, your proposed 100-200g seems very high. It seems like it ought to be something like 10% of this or less.

Any more you can share about your assumptions would be appreciated.

rshimek
09/06/2001, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by GSB

Hi,


I understand that this is a "back of the envelope" estimate,

Very

but I'd like to understand how you reached this estimate. You say a mass of 2.3 kg, but we're not talking about the animal itself are we? It must be the weight of an anemone as one carries it home in a plastic bag. If that's correct, most of the weight is saltwater, isn't it?

I am trying to estimate live tissue weight here. This would be the mass of animal contracted as much as possible. Anemones are pretty massive animals for cnidarians and have a lot of fibrous protein and live tissue in their mass.

Yes, even so it is mostly water - but when fully contracted, it would have about the same water component as a given mass of fish or other aquatic animal.

It that's the case, this is a rather large anemone. Assuming most of the weight is saltwater, it must be something like 16-18 inches across. Is that what you based your assumptions on?

More like the big ones one sees on the reefs, say a ritteri with a column 18 inches across and an oral disk about 2-3 feet across.

If most of the weight is saltwater, the weight of the tissue is going to be a small fraction of this. What would you say? Maybe 5%? Using some of the few scientific articles on anemone nutrition I've been able to find, your proposed 100-200g seems very high. It seems like it ought to be something like 10% of this or less.

Check out the work by Mimi Koehl on the biomechanics of anemones, published in about 1977 or 78, I think ( I don't have the reference in my data base, sorry). Anyway she looked at smaller anemones than these giants, but from her work you should be able to "scale" up to them. I think my estimates of live tissue weight are fairly reasonable.

I examined the diets of smaller azooxantellate anemones, Urticina crassicornis for this publication: Shimek, R. L. 1981. Neptunea pribiloffensis (Dall, 1919) and Tealia crassicornis (Müller, 1776), On a snail's use of babysitters. The Veliger. 24: 62 - 66., and although I did not quantify the weights of the foods, a large number of these animals (which are about the size of the average bulb tipped anemone seen in the hobby) were eating prey that were on the order of 100 gr or more (sea urchins, etc.).

Other folks, working with Anthopleura xanthogrammica, which has both zooxanthellae and zoochlorellae, and which can reach sizes to rival an average ritteri, have found that they eat mussel clumps (knocked out of the intertidal by wave surge) that can weigh up to several hundred grams.

In some other unpublished research on a subtidal temperate azooxanthellate anemone, Cribrinopsis fernaldi. I found it was eating whole swimming scallops (caught on the fly as they swam by). These are smaller anemones, maybe only 10" across, but the food item could have about 20-50 g wet tissue weight.

Anyway, the gist of this babble is that a lot of anemones seem to eat a lot of food. In many temperate areas they appear to be very important predators eating apparently a lot of food per unit time, I see no reason to assume that they are not doing the same in the tropics.

:D

filishy
09/06/2001, 01:31 PM
Hi Good Doctor, it's Mary! :)

Just for future references, where can this "Gamma foods lancefish" can be bought?

I know I will eventually (once I believe I have learned enough) try to keep anemones, so as usual, liked to be prepared.

Thank you, Doc! :cool:

rshimek
09/06/2001, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by filishy

Hi Mary,

Just for future references, where can this "Gamma foods lancefish" can be bought?

I purchase mine frozen and mail ordered in from:

Saltwater City
13626 NE 20th Street
Bellevue, Washington 98005

425-644-7050
fax 425-644-7075

Ask for Trev or Pat.

:D

GSB
09/06/2001, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by rshimek


In many temperate areas they appear to be very important predators eating apparently a lot of food per unit time, I see no reason to assume that they are not doing the same in the tropics.



Thanks. That is the question, whether host anemones are such aggressive predators in the tropics.:)

Thanks for the references!

GregD
09/06/2001, 06:31 PM
Dr. Ron,

First off I would like to thank you for taking the time to host a forum like this that is so readily accessible...I think your contributions to the hobby and the science are great.

As a successful keeper of anemones myself (success rates over 1 year) I wanted to get your opinion on the following idea surrounding anmeone feeding-

It has been my experience that anemones use their tentacles and zooxanthellate not only for photosynthesis but also as a physical way to assist feeding themselves direct meals.

If the zooxanthellate die off due to lack of light, won't the anemone lose some or all of its ability to use the stinging/cling receptors to kill or hold direct meals as it feeds itself. (my anology, not trying to be gruesome here... is a person without hands or teeth....certainly they can survive on food fed to them, however without the use of hands or teeth to aid the feeding process, this becomes much more difficult)

I would also want to confirm that you are not suggesting feeding alone is the only factor that leads to successful anemone keeping (although it goes a long way!) Just because you sufficiently feed an anemone directly, this factor alone does not guarantee success, you must also make sure you have good water quality/parameters.

Thanks in advance!
Greg D

rshimek
09/06/2001, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by GregD

Hi Greg,

If the zooxanthellate die off due to lack of light, won't the anemone lose some or all of its ability to use the stinging/cling receptors to kill or hold direct meals as it feeds itself. (my anology, not trying to be gruesome here... is a person without hands or teeth....certainly they can survive on food fed to them, however without the use of hands or teeth to aid the feeding process, this becomes much more difficult)

The loss of zoox should not effect this in the slightest, as long as the animal is getting appropriate nutrition from other sources. The stinging capsules - nematocysts - are secreted by the anemone's cells and there is no evidence to indicate anything in them is directly related to the zoox byproducts.

Similarly, the anemone's adhesion to the substrate is simply done with a thick mucus. This also appears to be no different here than in anemones without zoox.

I would also want to confirm that you are not suggesting feeding alone is the only factor that leads to successful anemone keeping (although it goes a long way!) Just because you sufficiently feed an anemone directly, this factor alone does not guarantee success, you must also make sure you have good water quality/parameters.

One needs a number of things to keep these animals in good shape.

First is appropriate nutrition, probably second is an appropriate physical substrate, and of course one needs good water.

:D

filishy
09/07/2001, 06:39 AM
Muchas gracias, Doctor! :D

Mary.

JonR
09/07/2001, 12:09 PM
To ask a detailed question, how often and how much lancefish would you recommend feeding a small (2-3" anemone), and how would this vary for slightly larger ones.

I take it other fish will be unable to approach the anemone to 'steal' the lancefish!

rshimek
09/07/2001, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JonR

Hi Jon,

To ask a detailed question, how often and how much lancefish would you recommend feeding a small (2-3" anemone), and how would this vary for slightly larger ones.

This is somewhat hard to guage, it depends a lot on the species, and probably on the individual. I generally feed every other day. I would start by cutting the fish in half (easy to do when frozen) or dicing them. I would initially feed one or two. If the animal takes them readily, perhaps up the amount. If you are feeding more than "maintenance amounts" the animal will start to grow noticeably. If you don't want this, feed less. If you wish it to grow faster, feed more.

I take it other fish will be unable to approach the anemone to 'steal' the lancefish!

No. Not quite. Clown fish will eat the lancefish on occasion and will take them out of the anemone, sometimes. And put them back in. If the anemone is "hungry" it will often fold up over the food so fast and vigorously that the clowns can't do anything.

I haven't had other fish try to get near the anemone to get the food but I suppose this is possible. It is also possible that these fish would then be stung and eaten.

Jake
09/07/2001, 12:27 PM
Dr. Ron,

Through most of this thread I understood that you were making a statement that Host anemonies needs can be met sucessfully with feeding even in the absense of it's symbiotic algae. However I have noted that you keep your under intense lighting.

I am hoping that you are not reccomending that people keep these animals in dim lighting conditions. These animals have proven hard to keep, possibly due to the fact that they need a lot of food. It seems then that it would be a bad Idea to remove a non polluting food source for an animal that even with intense lighting requires supplemental feedings. Also by having intense light the nutrient processing capibilities of the tank are enhanced (Algae growth) so better water quality can be maintained.

I guess what I am trying to ask you is- Would you reccommend keeping these animals under dim or no lighting?

JonR
09/07/2001, 12:33 PM
Ron,

Thanks, what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

thanks,
Jon

ravenmore
09/07/2001, 02:04 PM
Jake - I think Dr. Shimek already answered your question. Quote by Dr. Shimek:

I think that lighting is important to these animals in the real world for one reason. It allows them to get nutrition. If their nutrition needs are adequately met by feeding them, then I don't see any thing wrong with keeping them in an environment that has lower light intensity.

This issue is really rather simple but we seem intent on making it complicated.

Anemones, as does any life form, require a certain amount of energy to live, grow, and reproduce. Anemones can get this energy from multiple sources:

-source 1 is through feeding, which can be on a broad range of things, some microscopic.

-source 2 is from a symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae within their tissues.

It's simple. If they get enough nutrition from source 1 then they don't need source 2.

Most people do not feed their anemones enough - I would venture to guess that most hobbiest grossly underestimate how much these critters can eat. In such situations strong light can help. However, the energy from photosynthesis is not sufficient enough for the animal to grow or repair tissues. (it's junk food - see the cotton candy analogy Dr. Shimek mentions) The anemone needs to feed for that. In fact, I believe the zoox itself needs nitrogen compounds from the host as well (nitrogen compounds are acquired only by "feeding").

I don't think Dr. Shimek is "recommending" any one keep an anemone in low light. He is mearly pointing out that it can be done if the animal is fed properly and can be quite healthy in such an environment.

Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.

-Mike

Emmitt
09/07/2001, 03:09 PM
Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.

....and give it plenty of intense light. That is, if one of our primary objectives is to provide an environment as close to natural as possible.

This, after reading this post and others, is MHO.

Jake
09/07/2001, 03:55 PM
What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

My point was not to give Ron a hard time or to find out under what conditions anemone husbandry is possible.

I believe that you could keep an anemone alive in a dark state, but I think it would be a lot harder than keeping them in a lighted tank. I just want to make sure people don't start saying "I can keep an anemone in the dark cause Ron said so." I realize Ron did not state this but there are people out there that through lack of understanding or purposeful ignorance will say this. Due to Ron's stature in the hobby I just wanted him to restate his general reccommendations for Anemone husbandry so newbies don't go and get an underlit tank and throw an anemone in it claiming Ron said it was OK.
As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

I guess my point is their are many ways things can be done. One can keep an Anemone under many conditions, you can keep corols in a tank that is significantl cooler than the temperatures Ron suggests. However Ron suggests those temperatures because he feels they are optimal temperatures for corals to thrive. I would say that optimal conditions for host anemones would involve high lighting. I am fairly sure Ron would agree with me on this but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.

ravenmore
09/07/2001, 04:48 PM
Let me re-iterate: I am not suggesting/recommeding that you keep anemones in a dim environment. I keep mine under quite bright light conditions actually. But I am saying that it could be done and the anemones would do just fine as long as their energy needs were met in another manner. And I am also pointing out that strong light alone is not good enough to keep an anemone. They have to feed on something. Photosynthesis doesn't provide them with nutrients like nitrogen compounds and protiens that are required for healing, growing and re-producing.

rshimek
09/07/2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Jake

Hi,

What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

What about it? You have nutrient export in all cases.

As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

Anemones are not any more delicate than any other animals, in fact, they are some of toughest animals going - given enough food and the right habitat.

Zooxanthellae are NOT a good food source. They don't provide complete nutrition! They provide energy in the form of sugars, but the animals need a source of raw materials to build tissues - proteins. Zoox can provide some proteins only if the anemones have eaten first. The anemones also can also make their own proteins simply by digesting their food. In either case they have to feed.

but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.

The optimal conditions will vary with the anemone species.

The animals need an approriate substrate.

Then they need to be fed well with an appropriate food.

They then will do best in moderate to bright light

They need full strength salinity water, other water parameters are less important.

Now.....

If their nutritional needs are met by feeding, then lighting becomes unimportant. It is possible to keep any zooxanthellate animal alive in the absence of light, however it is neither easy nor normal to do so. I don't recommend keeping these animals in dimly illuminated tanks. Nonetheless, it is possible to do so. Just because you can do such a thing, doesn't necessarily mean you should do such a thing.

rshimek
09/07/2001, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by JonR

Hi Jon,

what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

I get them up to about 3" long. I try to dice them into 1/4 to 1/2 inch chunks, but often don't bother and just feed the whole things.

:D

Alice
09/08/2001, 01:00 AM
Excellent. Now that every newcomer to the hobby is going to keep anemones in the dark like mushrooms with an NO striplight, NSW and frozen lancefish let's at least ask them to act responsibly and buy captive raised so they don't deplete the ocean of these beautiful creatures.

~Alice


Save the Neoprenes!

mengerin
09/08/2001, 12:04 PM
Alice, I don't think you're understanding. 1M anemones are brought in and die each year to be replaced by a new 1M. The postulate is they're dying because they're not fed and attempted to be kept in "light" (let's assume 'bright').

If people feed w/ no light, they may have a dog ugly anemone, but it'll live.

I think you've very much missed the point of this long thread.

Cheers,
Matthew

Alice
09/08/2001, 12:22 PM
Hi Matthew;

No, I don't think I missed the point. I think I'm just looking at it from a different angle.

I'm all for feeding; I'm a Mom, I feed everything impartially and probably sometimes more than is good for them ;) The kids, their friends, my husband, my cat, stray dogs and my tanks. If feeding them is all it takes to keep anemones alive, boy howdy, I'll be the first one doing the happy dance but I still feel you have to view the situation with an eye to conservation. I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

~Alice

mengerin
09/08/2001, 01:34 PM
I'm all for feeding; I'm a Mom, I feed everything impartially and probably sometimes more than is good for them ;) The kids, their friends, my husband, my cat, stray dogs and my tanks. If feeding them is all it takes to keep anemones alive, boy howdy, I'll be the first one doing the happy dance but I still feel you have to view the situation with an eye to conservation.

That's the whole point that Ron's been trying to make. Feeding is all that it takes to keep anemones alive. According to Ron in this thread, do your happy dance. That's precisely why I felt you were missing what Ron was saying. I don't understand what angle you're coming from if you don't agree with his assertion.

I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

I'll let Ron address this point.

Cheers,
Matthew

sir reefalot
09/09/2001, 04:21 AM
Hi Doc,
I'm curious about something I read. Maybe you can help me?
How does an anemone utilize lipid(s)? I have not heard this term used with an anemone before.

"It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992)."

side note: I notice the operative word, "indicating", guess they haven't spoken to Dr. Ron yet!
:D

rshimek
09/09/2001, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by sir reefalot

Hi

How does an anemone utilize lipid(s)? I have not heard this term used with an anemone before.

Every animal uses fats (lipids) to some degree.

"It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992)."

In the context of the quote it is impossible to how the lipids are being used, and just why the statement is made. My suspicion in this case would be that the lipids they were measuring might be produced by zoox, and therefore have a correlation with light intensity. The same or similar lipids should be available from food, but may not be. Also the way the statement is phrased, indicates a correlation rather than an experimental results, and correlations do not imply causation.

:D

rshimek
09/09/2001, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Alice

Hi Alice,

I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

As I said earlier in the thread, there simply is NO physiological research on these particular anemones. For information on them you have to rely on other anemone/zooxanthellae systems and extrapolate to these particular animals. I don't see any reason why these animals should be significantly different in their physiology than the anemones that have been studied, but it could be possible. Until it is shown that they are different however, I would apply what we know from other anemones to them.

As for hard and fast research about this topic, here are few citations from my data base and they should get you started on this if you wish.

Berner, T., G. Baghdasarian and L. Muscatine. 1993. Repopulation of a sea anemone with symbiotic dinoflagellates: Analysis by in vivo fluorescence. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 170:145-158.

Brand, D. D., R. S. Blanquet and M. A. Phelan. 1993. Collagenaceous, thiol-containing proteins of cnidarian nematocysts: A comparison of the chemistry and protein distribution patterns in two types of cnidae. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology B Comparative Biochemistry. 106:115-124.

Engelbretson, H. P. and P. G. Muller. 1999. Translocation of photosynthetic carbon from two algal symbionts to the sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima. Biological Bulletin (Woods Hole). 197:72-81.

Gates, R. D., K. Y. Bil and L. Muscatine. 1999. The influence of an anthozoan "host factor" on the physiology of a symbiotic dinoflagellate. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 232:241-259.

Herndl, G. J. and B. Velimirov. 1986. Role of bacteria in the gastral cavity of Anthozoa. Ifremer (Institut Francais De Recherche Pour L'Exploitation De La Mer) Actes. Colloques:407-414,illustr.

Muller, P. G., K. W. Lee and C. B. Cook. 1996. Changes in the ultrastructure of symbiotic Zooxanthellae (Symbiodinium sp., Dinophyceae) in fed and starved sea anemones maintained under high and low light. Journal of Phycology. 32:987-994.

Saunders, B. K. and G. Muller-Parker. 1997. The effects of temperature and light on two algal populations in the temperate sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima (Brandt, 1835). Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 211:213-224.

Steen, R. G. 1988. The bioenergetics of symbiotic sea anemoness (Anthozoa: Actinaria). Symbiosis. 5:103-142.

Steen, R. G. 1986. Impact of symbiotic phosphorus-31 algae on sea anemone metabolism: Analysis by in vivo phosphorus-31 NMR spectroscopy. Journal of Experimental Zoology. 240:315-326.

Stochaj, W. R. and A. R. Grossman. 1997. Differences in the protein profiles of cultured and endosymbiotic Symbiodinium sp. (Pyrrophyta) from the anemone Aiptasia pallida (Anthozoa). Journal of Phycology. 33:44-53.

Swanson, R. and O. Hoegh-Guldberg. 1998. Amino acid synthesis in the symbiotic sea anemone Aiptasia pulchella. Marine Biology (Berlin). 131:83-93.

Wang, J. T. and A. E. Douglas. 1998. Nitrogen recycling or nitrogen conservation in an alga-invertebrate symbiosis? Journal of Experimental Biology. 201:2445-2453.

Weis, V. M. 1993. Effect of dissolved inorganic carbon concentration on the photosynthesis of the symbiotic sea anemone Aiptasia pulchella Carlgren: Role of carbonic anhydrase. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 174:209-225.

Zamer, W. E. and J. M. Schick. 1987. Physiological energetics of the intertidal sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima: II. Energy balance. Marine Biology (Berlin). 93:481-492.

horge
09/09/2001, 02:52 PM
Hello,

The quote was taken somewhat out of context.

Chin, Hsin and Milano only touched on nutritional aspects as peripheral to their actual focus: the ability of anemones to adjust their bodies' drag coefficients in the face of changing water velocities. They did not attempt to dissociate feeding from the requirements of a stereotypical anemone. Here is a fuller and fairer quote (emphases mine), and please note the ending sentence:


"...It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992). The light should give 3 to 5 watts per gallon of water. The lights should also be 50 % actinic and 50% full spectrums (Henderson, 1996). The flow tank also requires the same conditions as the holding tank but it does not need a light source since the sea anemone is only held there temporarily for testing. Finally, the anemones must be fed brine shrimp approximately three times a week (Henderson, 1996)."

I do not think Alice was dissociating feeding from the requirements of aquarium-ornamental anemones! I hope I have shown that Chin et. al. weren't either. What is clear to me is that while no one here questions the value of ingested nutrition, such anemones do still remain a proposition for the experienced, or at least conscientiously well-informed hobbyist:

There are also issues above and beyond nutrition that determine health for a captive anemone, including water quality (including temperature), water volume and movement, substrate composition, and above all, tank companions (a VERY tricky matter), that have to be addressed.

I would thus interpret Alice's post simply as a heads-up:
there is still a need to provide caveats regarding anemone husbandry

.... otherwise people may obtain the simplistic impression that
"Feeding is all that it takes to keep anemones alive".

I believe Matthew stated the above in the context of his experience, but we have to take account of the mass of inexperience reading these threads for guidance, and speak with more caution.



:)
horge


PS: If anyone wants to obtain that lipid study cited by Chin et. al., here's the full proper cite: Harland, A.D., L.M. Fixter, P. Spencer Davies, R.A. Anderson. Effect of Light On The Total Lipid Content and the Storage Lipids of the Symbiotic Sea Anemone Anemonia Viridis. Marine Biology. Springer International. v112 1992. p253-258.

Happy hunting.

PPS: Just as Ron has indicated, there is a degree of presently-unavoidable risk in extrapolating from temperate or non-ornamental species towards the more familiar ornamentals that I presume we're talking about. After all, if I were to take certain Aiptasia spp. as models (and tropical ones to boot!) I'd be supremely confident of my chances at host-anemone husbandry ;)

Alice craves proper studies on the appropriate, relevant species.. Like, who here doesn't?
:D

tres
09/10/2001, 02:15 PM
Whoops, double post! Disregard this one.

tres
09/10/2001, 02:15 PM
Based on the info, I want to draw the conclusion that this line of thinking holds true for reef building corals as well. Dr. Ron, is it true that with the physiological similarities between anemonies and reef building corals, corals need much more than lighting to grow? Would you go so far as to say that intense lighting could drop down a notch or two on a scale of importance and feeding could move up? I've wondered about people saying they have corals growing under what many would consider to be sub-par (pun intended) lighting conditions. Maybe they're meeting the corals nutritional needs more through feeding. Am I all wet here?

rshimek
09/10/2001, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by tres

Hi Tres,

Dr. Ron, is it true that with the physiological similarities between anemonies and reef building corals, corals need much more than lighting to grow?

Of course, even under the best of lighting conditions corals require either feeding (on macro or micro plankton) or dissolved nutrients grow. Most appear to get the raw materials for growth from feeding, while much of their day to day energy needs are met zoox. Unlike anemones, zoox also facilitate the deposition of skeleton, so corals generally need a lot more light than to the anemones, however they also need a lot of food.

Would you go so far as to say that intense lighting could drop down a notch or two on a scale of importance and feeding could move up?

I would say feeding and lighting should be about equivalent in importance. One provides the energy, the other the materials for growth.


I've wondered about people saying they have corals growing under what many would consider to be sub-par (pun intended) lighting conditions. Maybe they're meeting the corals nutritional needs more through feeding. Am I all wet here?

No you are not "all wet." Probably you are right on target.

:D

Scott Crumpton
09/14/2001, 03:10 AM
Actually, if the proof is in the pudding, my tank is proof of what he's talking about. I have two E. Quads and if my memory serves I've had one at least two years. Coincidently, the NO FL lights I have on the tank have been there about the same amount of time -- or longer. Sorry, the older I get the more I lose track of time -- it just all runs together.

Specifically, I have 6 NO FL lights over a 29gal tank with the bulbs being at least two years old. That's 4 watts/gal of very old FL lighting and my primary anemone has exhibited fantastic growth over these years and is doing very well. Fully expanded the anemone is about 10 inches across and a brownish green which means it still has its algae intact. I feed it a piece of home made food about the size of a small super ball twice a week and it would eat more if I fed it though not much more I've noticed.

My smaller anemone (also E. Quad) is only about a year old and about three inches across. I purchased it about a year ago and it promptly crawled into the entrance of a cave with little light. Because of the location with limited light, the animal has bleached to a very white color. The animal continues to grow and survive despite the fact that I have difficulty feeding it also due to it's location. I can only assume my smaller tomato clowns which tends the animal feeds it when I'm not looking.

FWIW

Scott Crumpton