Help Petco

[skydiver585]

Hi everyone, my name is Matt im 18 and i've been doing marine aquaria for about 3 yrs. Im gona need everyones help on this one. I recently went into my local Petco and was shocked. I know I shouldn't be, because of their reputation, however it was really bad. 95 percent of the fish were coverted in protozoan diseses, and the other 5 percent with every other diseses you could think of. Now what im actually trying to do is get a job there. They need some serious help which I feel I can provide. Also, the reason im posting this is because i also realize i dont know everything, and I wish to seek any additional help i can get. So to everyone out there, feel free to comment and provide useful information.

[skydiver585]

Heres a couple of other things i saw while i was in there. 1) They had about 15 tomato clowns and 15 clarkii clowns together in the same 10 gallon tank, and of course every single one had ripped fins. 2) This is a fairly new petco, maybe 4 months old and their already putting coral in two of there tanks. they had some ricordia and some different mushroom corals under their stupid,not enough light to read a book system. The reason this is really annoying is because the tanks are still cycling with algae. It doesnt make it any better when thet have dead fish lying everywhere, There tanks are a mess. Hopefully i can help some of those poor fish before they kill the whole ocean.

[skydiver585]

Alright. My first Topic. How do you get ride of all that disese, in that large of a system.

[Thales]

I am going to answer your question from a different angle.
I think you should no get a job there, and you should not try to help them. Helping Petco in any form only allows them to do more business in all their stores and their other stores will not have you to help them.
I understand you wanting to help out all those fish, however, making Petco profitable only helps them open more stores and kill more fish. I think your efforts would be better spent working to get them to not carry saltwater animals.
JMHO.

RR

[NaH2Ofreak]

If you try and get a job there so that you can "rescue" all those poor animals, you wont last long. PetCo dosent want to help those poor animals. You would be sadly disappointed and probably end up getting terminated for it. Keep in mind that you are not the first concerned aquarist to try and help out PetCo. Many have tried and been fired before you.

Dennis

[nanocat]

You live in Figi and they have Petco's there ?

[skydiver585]

no i dont actually live in fiji

[fldamsel]

If you want to get a job there go do it. The manager is a manager he may not know anything about running an aquarium but he may want to hire someone who does. So the worst thing is you get frustrated but maybe you learn something and someone elce is sure to learn from your excitement about the hobby.
One person may make a difference in a small or a big way but
if you don't try nothing is ever learned by anyone.
Just my 2 cents
Do what you love and help yourself and others you don't have to change the whole company at once just one store at a time

[skydiver585]

Lefty and NaH20freak. Thankyou for your replies. I feel as though it would be impossible to shut down petco from selling saltwater fish. It may or may not be. I just dont know. I feel like it would be easier to try and help.However, NaH20freak brings up a good point. Id rather try, and get fired than to leave all those poor fish be killed.

[judobeast]

PetCo doesn,t seel the basic things that you need to start a successful SW aquarium. When is the last time that you have seen any snails or hermits in a petco?

[skydiver585]

actually. this one had alot. But they were all dead.

[wwxc]

You'll just be helping Petco kill more fish in the long run while getting paid $7 an hour. Petco will not allow a QT system so you can't get around the sick fish problem. Its a terrible company, but from what I've heard the higher ups are finally starting to realize that this poor care of animals is affecting their bottom line.

You'd be better off doing whatever you can to file complaints, organize a protest, hand out flyers to customers in the parking lot, etc.

Petco only cares about one thing: $

[David M]

FWIW while the Petco's here in SD are still a far cry from a decent aquarium shop, they do a pretty good job with a few basic species. I believe they are ORA's largest customer and all those clowns, dottybacks and neon gobies are ORA captive bred stock. I agree that part of the problem is that they do not offer enough equipment and supplies to get someone set up propperly. I too would like to see them get out of the marine trade but I doubt it will happen anytime soon and see nothing wrong with trying to get the job there, if not to help them then to help the customers by directing them to good information sources like RC.

[CrystalAZ]

I disagree with those saying not to help.

The fact is that unknowing people come in to buy fish and supplies there. If he can help steer one person in the right direction, he has helped this hobby.

He also has the ability to help these fish.

I do agree that Petco shouldn't carry saltwater fish (or birds, or freshwater fish, or lizards, etc) if they aren't willing to have an "expert" in these areas in every store to care for the animals.

Not buying there helps. Not working there doesn't.

Just my 2 cents.

Crystal

[Crims]

I wonder if Saltwater fish goes in the category for animal abuse? Why not? :)

[Thales]

I would be extremely suprised if Petco wants their employees to steer customers away from a purchase.
If he becomes a good employee and the Petco customers like him, they will buy stuff at Petco, which tells Petco that they should stay in, or expand, their saltwater line.
I think not working there does indeed help, as any help given to Petco only allows them to open more stores and do more business.
Kinda like - it would be weird to be against the death penalty, but be employed to carry it out.

Many have tried to help Petco, but they have shown time and again that they aren't interested.

I think if you are really worried about the animals, you time would be better spent sitting outside of the store with signs deriding Petco, getting your local newspapers or tv stations to do stories on the deplorable conditions, or getting your local government to slap them with bad husbandry tickets. Working there, while it may make you feel better in the short term, only enables them to buy and abuse more animals in the long term.

Fun discussion.

[fldamsel]

The merchandise is ok just not the fish

[Thales]

If you buy the merchandise you support the treatment of the fish - it is one store.

[skydiver585]

I went to Petco today. i have an interview tomarrow with the manager, and i have to take some kind of test. I just cant do it. I have to try and help. Will see how it goes.

[HuBu]

the petco near me carry mexican turbos. i m planning on speaking with the head of the fish department about getting a job there. a couple of days ago, i was there and there were 2 mandarian gobies in their 10 gal tank without any rocks. i was telling him about the danger of it and why they woulc eventually die due to malnutrition.

[skydiver585]

I went to petco today to take a personality test. It was 178 questions of boaring blah. They asked questions like, if you saw another co-worker stealing, would you tell managment. And some easy math questions to see weather im dumb or not. I got a kick out of the one that asked how many days there were in a week. I hope i got that one right lol. Yesterday i had dicussed a little with the manager about the poor helth of the tanks. He said, " They'll be taken care of by tomarrow." I just smiled politly. Well, i came in there today and some of the algae was wiped of the glass and some of the decorations that they have in there. I laughed slightly and then continued my discust with the 7 new dead fish, i saw alive the day before.

[K9]

Matt, my vote would be with the people who say not to work there. At 18, you should get a job that will help your future as opposed to saving fish that don't have a chance in the first place. Why don't you try to get a job at a local airport instead. If that's what you'd like to do for a career, I think your time would be better spent gaining experience there instead of trying to be a miracle worker at PetCo. You can help out the hobby by fragging corals or participating in a volunteer clean-up of a reef or beach near you. Try these first, there's much to be done. Your efforts would be much more appreciated doing something like this instead. JMO.

[NTidd]

I wouldn't get a job there either, they shouldn't be selling things that they don't know how to take care of, it is irresponsible. It doesn't look like they are trying to find "experienced reefers" to get them back on track, they should of looked for experience employees before they start selling this stuff.

[skippy2]

I agree. You will not be saving any fish or for sure won't be happy working there. They are in the business to make money no matter the life of the fish. Please reconsider. You will only make yourself more upset. There is no way petco is going to have an 18 yr. old tell them how to run their business.
My petco is awful. The guy in charge of the saltwater fish at least told me he only knows freshwater. You all should have seen his face when I mentioned photosynthesis. He never heard of the word.

[NTidd]

I've only been to petco once in my life, and that was before I was in to saltwater so I don't remember what it was like but I will not go back.

[wwxc]

I totally agree with K9. While what you're doing is admirable in the greater scheme of things, its personally a poor decision with regards to your future.

One of my friends was an ex-Petcoer. You will not be able to make any large scale changes without getting fired. He told me they used to have a QT system, but the Petco higher-ups ordered them all removed from the stores for "cost" reasons.

Getting paid chump change helps Petco, not you. You should really think this over.

[Aquabucket]

If you can put up with all the BS involved, I say give it a try. The local Petco here has a guy who is an experienced reefkeeper and it shows. It may take awhile before your managers allow your input but why not give it a shot? Various Petcos will still continue to kill fish no matter what you do. If you can save some or steer people in the right direction it will be well worth it IMO.

[skippy2]

You could always make a batch of reefcentral business cards and pass them out on the qt.

[guitarfish]

We have Petco and Petsmart in my area, both sell fish. One day my wife and I were in Petsmart and we noticed the betta fish - all sitting there in their cups. The lids were off the cups, and you could see a grotesque glaze over the top of the water in each cup. Some of them had coins in the cups that kids tossed in. At least one or two of the bettas were out of their cups, dead and hard on the shelf itself. It was sickening.

I approached one of the "kids" that worked there, and she gave me some attitude about how they take care of them at night. I'm sure we could all tell stories. It's sad. It's also a corporation, they have their public relations and spin about how wonderful they are, and people like us are made to look like radical fanatics.

[skydiver585]

thanx so much everyone for your comments. I will take both sides into my reconsideration

[David M]

Matt- welcome to the machine. Those tests are not checking your answers like there is right and wrong, they are checking the consistancy of your answers. That's why you get the the same question asked five different ways. Corporations are not intersted in what you know, they will cram what they want you know down your throat :D What they do want to know is if you are are honest and have the potential to be a "team player". The faster you go through those tests, (the less you think about it), the more likely you are to 'pass'. The questions are all grey on purpose, they want people who only see in black and white. Personally I hope you get the job, all these guys saying you will only "promote the problem"

[wwxc]

I'm not really saying he'll promote the problem, but from what I've heard from ex-employees they won't let you fix the problem. Its a hopeless situation that isn't controlled "in-store." He'll get fired the first time he sends someone to reefcentral or recommends a product other than the crap they sell in Petco. Its going to be tough to remain a knowledgeable reefer giving good advice while being forced to sell live sand in a bag, Red Sea products, and diseased fish.

His time would be better spent putting together something like a cost-benefit report for upper management that shows the benefits of having healthy fish in all the Petco stores.

The altruism is good, but the focus should be larger to actually make a difference in the whole scheme of things.

[MFrance]

This is an interesting topic...I have to say that the Petco here in Southern Utah (St George) has been pretty good and the guy in charge of the SW fish actualy knew what he was talking about. I always thought (because of this store) Petco had a pretty good reputation and had healthy fish...mmm I guess I'll have to get around more. As a matter of fact the guy said that for a long time they did not have any SW fish until him and another guy got there because no one had experience. He said that Petco wont have marine fish if the employees dont know what theyre doing....maybe this is just a So Utah thing?

[Nanook]

[moved]

[SurferStevo]

Originally posted by Lefty
If you buy the merchandise you support the treatment of the fish - it is one store.

Maybe so, but I get my cat food pretty cheap there. Maybe some genuis in inventory will notice that more cat food needs to be purchased & less fish.
There was a Petland in my area that got out of selling Marine fish because no one bought them. The only thing successful in their systems were aptasia the size of my thumb.
I think this has to be a group effort you can still buy your dog/cat stuff there just not your SW fish. If there is no profit in stocking SW fish they will dissapear from the shelves.

[wwxc]

If you buy anything there you support Petco, no way around it. Sorry.

[Aquabucket]

I am back to add a little bit more to the topic.

Apathy is rampant in the world these days. Some here are saying you will be entering a losing battle, this may be the case. Its the remarkable people of the world today who strive for change. Do you think change comes easy? It comes at a price. Commitment and determination are your chief weapons. It is only you as an individual who can decide if you are up to the task at hand. Are you going to change things at your local Petco? None of us here can be certain. What is certain is that apathy changes nothing.

To others this may sound altruistic. I myself would rather be altruistic than apathetic. You saw something in your world that you feel needs change. At worst you will make a few bucks, possibly get fired and maybe a little frustrated, but at least you will know that you tried.

If they fire you because you are trying to put an end to the unethical treatment of living organisms, take your experince and write a few letters to ORA, your local paper or any other organization that may be interested.

The key is to take things slowly at first, take a back seat and don't rock the boat right off the dock. Develop a relationship with the stores managers. Write down things that you feel could be done to improve the situation. Give suggestions when the time is appropriate. Inform the management that your ideas will save $$$ by preventing the unnecessary loss of livestock. Give detailed solutions along with cost breakdowns. If you don't get results take your ideas, suggestions, observations, etc.. to a higher level and so on. If you still don't get results then inform management of your intentions such as writing a few letters to the organizations previously mentioned. What have you got to loose?

Good luck if you do take the job and let us know how things work out. If you don't take the job you can still send off some well thought out letters.

[eums]

the petco by me isnot so bad. i know the guy working the fish department. the have about 20 sw tanks, most of the fish in them look good. they don't pack 20 clowns in a 10 gal they have maybe 3-5 1" clowns in a tank. or you can go down the street to a good sw place and see 20-30 clowns in a 20 gal (aka tongs in hb) there tanks are packed with fish. but they have amazing coral at amazingly high prices most of the time.

[skydiver585]

thinkin!

[AReeferIsExpensive]

there's no hope....:(

[skydiver585]

Ok, well i've done alot of thinking and i've gone back and forth between options. However, dispite the overwelming amount of people discouraging me to work at petco, I still have my mind set on taking the job. Not only for the fish, but also for the people that live in my area. There is about 10 fish shops in my area and 5 of them sell saltwater fish. Of them, none in my mind could be called a good fish store. At petco i 'll have the chance not only change that, but also to distribute better knowlege throughout the area. I do want to make clear, that im not disagreeing with the people that said i should not work there. They have wonderful alternatives and points that are far from wrong. However, at this point in time i dont feel like executing those tasks are what i need to do, right now. They will always be in my mind as plan b. I also need to face what i think are fact. And that is, petco is a huge company thats not going to be shut down. They have the right to sell what the wish, and without the coperation of not only the aquatic buyers, but also the other animal buyers, causing petco to diminish would be qite almost imposible. And thats why my mind is made towards taking the job.

[David M]

OK then- go for it. Just remember you have to play their way or you won't last long. There were some suggestions above about gaining their confidence first before you go trying to change any policies, I think that is good advice.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by K9Decoy
At 18, you should get a job that will help your future as opposed to saving fish that don't have a chance in the first place. :thumbsup: Petco needs to be changed at the corporate level. Unless you plan to work at Petco for the rest of your life, start a union, and demand better care of teh animals, getting a job there isn't the way.

Actually, starting a union and demanding better treatment of the animals might be effective. But it would be a challange at 18.

[skydiver585]

Anyone else. Im still open for comments

[Timmay]

Check out the Petco Cruelty (http://www.petcocruelty.com/) web site. It's pretty graphic so proceed with caution.

I started looking for information about Petco's business practices after consistently being shocked by their salt water fish. When I found this web site, it pushed me over the edge. I no longer do business with Petco.

Keep in mind that the people who host this site (PETA) have an agenda.

Tim

[SurferStevo]

Nice quote from the Petcocruelty website:
“I have cried many times because of the animal neglect that I have seen. [I]f I quit, there will be no one at the store to care for the animals, that is why I stay. ... I can't help but feel for all the animals and I wish that PETCO would not [sell] them. ’�
-PETCO employee, January 25, 2004"

[Thales]

Don't do it. Its like learning to smoke because you think smoking is nasty.

[MFrance]

Wow...I wish I had that much time....

[skydiver585]

what kind of benefit do you think it would bring by putting pictures of dead fish from petco in the newspaper would bring. And an article about how bad there fish are.

[David M]

Careful there Matt, this is why LAWYERS make all the money in this country :D

[skydiver585]

its just a thought. Im still trying to get some feed back.

[guitarfish]

skydiver585 - probably nothing. People don't like to be shocked. They instantly turn off and dismiss the "fanatics". Most people probably think these stores are wonderful places.

[skydiver585]

I still feel like getting the job is best, because there going to keep bringing fish in and killing them untill they get someone who actually knows what there doing.

[tptp279]

Hey, i actually used to work for Petco for 2 years, i was one of there specialist and i didn't get fired for trying to help, the only problem is you can't really because the fish that are coming in are already infested. I worked at the one in the O.C area which was known to have the best sales people and specialist but now it's not. Well, i'm gonna tell you now that you can't do anything to really help because you can't set up quarinten tanks cause then can't make any money. So coming from someone that use to work there, you can't really do anything to change it unless you copper the tanks or something because the fish are gonna come into you guys sick from the start.

[skydiver585]

why would they already come sick?

[skydiver585]

anyone??

[Ryan]

Cheapest possible fish on the market + lack of knowledge = Petco

[UNCCwill]

go to college, take a few economics classes, then you will understand about petco and every other company in the world, companies are in business to maximize profit, not to help animals and nothing will ever change that

the only way their fish will get better care is if their fish department causes their profit to drop below 12%, they will either upgrade technology or most likely eliminate the fish department

[skydiver585]

no, my question was mis-understood. my question is why are the fish already coming to petco diseased as tptp279 said.Iknow why petco in general has bad fish.

[guitarfish]

They are probably buying them from the cheapest source possible, which means they are getting horrible care in the process. I read recently that fish aren't even fed between when they're caught until they get to the LFS.

[skydiver585]

ic. thats aweful

[robwsup]

Matt,
Take the job. At the very least, you'll get some good insight into the ways big business works in America. At the most, you'll be able to clean up the fish department, and pass some good knowledge onto other hobbiests. You'll be doing something you love, which says alot. Who here actually has a job doing something they love?

That said, I'll give a bit of advice. I'm 29, and recently realized that I can't change the world. Many times I have thought, if _____ would only do _____ then ______ would be so much better. After awhile I realized _______ will never get off his butt and do anything, no matter how small. You have to do it yourself. You may make a change, and that is what you are striving for.

More advice: Don't go in there day one and act like you know everything. If you've read one decent reef book, you probably know 1000x as much as whoever is in there now. You probably care 1000x as much too. Just because you know and care more, don't act like it. People despise new and eager people, because it makes them feel guilty about being such lazy dumb-butts. (being nice)

More advice: The things you want to do can't cost Petco more money than what they are spending now. If something you change makes fish either live longer or sell faster, then you may be given $$$$ for the change, but it had better be an instantaneous improvement. In that situation, heavy UV sterilizers may be the only quick fix.

There are other things you can do instead of just standing around while you are there, that cost little to no money. Clean the glass on the tanks, freshwater dip new arrivals (add buffer!), vacuum detritus with a Magnum 350 canister w/ micron filter (recirculates water=free cleanup), assist management with selecting fish to order, read books between customers, pull dead fish out of tanks when they die, not 8 hours later (reduces ammonia), move fish to other tanks to reduce crowding and stress.

The cheap things are: Water changes (I buy 200gal IO for $34.99 at Petsmart, similar to Petco), run carbon, run copper (but warn customers! copper is not bad, but it is in a reef), etc.

Beg your manager for an RO/DI setup. You can sell RO water, so it will pay for itself. (RO/DI~$150, $150/$.50/gallon=300 gallons of water sold to pay for itself).

Above all else, no matter what good ideas you have, be humble. To any angry-at-himself-for-being-35-and-working-at-Petco-still manager, you are a sont-nosed kid, no matter how polite, eager, intelligent, charasmatic you think you are. Stay quiet and busy, and people will notice that you are a hard worker. When the fish department starts to look better, they will also know that you know what you are doing. When someone asks why or how you know what you are doing, just tell them that you read alot and that you have learned from your own mistakes. You admiting that you have messed up in the past shows humility, and shows wisdom by not making those sames mistakes twice. Yep, it's a game. In big business, you have two tasks; get your job done, and make the guy above you look and feel good.

Welcome to the real world, and good luck!

[guitarfish]

That was real good advice Rob.

[robwsup]

Thanks.

Some of the smartest people in the world will never get their ideas across for two reasons:
1. The arrogance or perceived arrogance in the ways their ideas are presented.
-or-
2. They forget to look at the big picture--money.

[David M]

I'm 29, and recently realized that I can't change the world.

:D

One of my favorite movies lines is " If your'e not a radical at 20 you have no heart, if your'e not conservative by 30 you have no brain" :cool: I'm 47. It's amazing how your outlook changes as you get older. :eek1:

[guitarfish]

Actually, I thought it was "liberal", not "radical".

[David M]

Actually, I thought it was "liberal", not "radical".

You are probably right, remember, I'm 47, CRS is setting in :rolleyes: I'm lucky to remember what I did yesterday. :D

[skydiver585]

awesome advice Rob. You just made my mind. thanx

[robwsup]

You're welcome. I didn't want everyone here crush your dreams, but still be prepared for disappointments along the way.

[TheMandarinFish]

Petco fires people who try to improve animal husbandry.

I've seen them do it.

They are evil bastards and must be driven out of business.

[xeon]

My local Petco is a sad place to go into most of the time. The last time I was in there they had a bunch of small false percs in a 10 gallon with a good size Volitan lionfish. There were dead fish in just about every tank and signs of distress could be seen in many of them. There were two large puffers, one was on his last leg. I think I might bring this item to the table at our next marine aquarist society meeting. There was a Copperband wedged in a corner with a white film over his body and eyes... he looked dead but you could see his gills moving... who knows for how much longer. If these were dogs, cats or birds; Petco would be in real trouble.

[TheMandarinFish]

PetCo has been banned from selling live animals in SF, or there was a measure to do that.

They are infamous.

They fire employees who try to save animals and improve conditions.

I wage anarchy against them.

[KT & SJ]

Let's say you get hired. Then you try to get them to change. First you tell them that they are doing things wrong. Management will never admit that. Then you show them how to make things better. If it involves money (and it will) you will be shut down. They are only keeping the livestock for the short- term. Most likely you will get fired for the aggravation of keeping you around pointing out their shortcomings. Then you have a black mark on your resume and your right back where you started. Get the customers involved with flyers and get in contact with groups more powerfull then yourself. Good Luck either way. KT

[sallyheavyfoot]

If you don't like how a store/Petco treats their fish, DON'T SHOP THERE! If an item does not sell, in the retail world, they will not sell it! I was shocked when I saw CORALS of all things trying to be sold where I live. Flourescents, those poor guys. And just think of the "Brook" and most likely Ich from those clowns in your tank? Uhh... gives me the shakes. A large corporation is definetely not willing to shell out the money it will take to set up proper systems for saltwater. Sorry, just ranting I suppose. But to work there. If you think about it, pretty soon everyone will know about lowsy filtration techniques and there won't be a saltwater fish section there.

[tptp279]

man, this is all slander guys, i worked for petco for 2 years, and yes, some of this was true, but it's a store to store thing depending on the managers. I've had several really cool managers and we didn't have coral cause the managers and fish experts were wise enought to know that they were gonna die. We had fish and we try the best we can with them. We barely ever lost any saltwater fish, maybe a few from the shippments, but that's it. the fish also came in from ORA. A good store just depends on the employee's and managers really, i didn't get fired, i left because i had to go to college, i was birds expert but the guy we had for a fish expert worked for Sea World for a bit before he came to our store. It just depends on the type of manager you have and knowledable employee's. No store is without dead fish guys, look at Tong's, when they open, they have a fairly large bag of dead fish in the morning, and they are known to be one of the best in So. Cal. Oh, and SF was banned because the employee's were mistreating some of the animals, i can say that was true, but it wasn't my store, it's a store to store things guys, depends on the employee's and managers. I know our store was one of the best stores too. I was the bird expert and i was handfeeding baby birds to sell, and they went to really good families. And the saltwater fish that came in, if something didn't look too good, the manager would ask us if we wanted it to see if we can get it to get better. I've taken home dozen of animals that came in bad including a columbian boa that didn't eat for months, he had to be fed through a syringe. I've also taken home beaten up fish and quarantined them and gave them to knowledgable friends. So don't automatically blame Petco guys, it's a store to store thing where it's the manager's fault's that they are not monitoring it. I know my store did really well for a corporation owned bussiness.

[skydiver585]

.

[Thales]

Its not slander. Its people expressing their opinion of the chain. Even if you work at the 'good' petco, you are still supporting the entire company, which means you are helping to allow the many 'bad' stores to continue business as usual.

[KT & SJ]

robwsup has it right

[tptp279]

I am not supporting the bad stores, i'm saying it's a store to store deal with companies. I know my store was one of the better stores because customers came in to ask us for help and they told us they've been to several other stores and the employee's didn't know as much information. Think about it this way, look at your LFS, are there any employees you think just care about the money? And others that are really good with what they do and care about the hobby? Now, do you still shop there? if you do, then you are supporting that guy that's a bad employee. Oh, and although Petco is an organization, it's a store to store thing too because there are checklist for employee's to do when they open and close the store. It's the employee's and the managers that lack in knowledge and that are lazy that makes it bad to shop, but there are good one's out there. It's just like LFS, sometimes you find good ones, and sometimes you find bad ones. You can't make a judgement on all of the stores because of one or two stores in your area. Your basically stereotyping it.

[Thales]

Originally posted by tptp279
I am not supporting the bad stores, i'm saying it's a store to store deal with companies.

Not really with the big chains. Support one and you support them all. One is doing good with sw fish, so they want them at all the stores regardless of staff.

I know my store was one of the better stores because customers came in to ask us for help and they told us they've been to several other stores and the employee's didn't know as much information.

Thats great.

Think about it this way, look at your LFS, are there any employees you think just care about the money? And others that are really good with what they do and care about the hobby? Now, do you still shop there? if you do, then you are supporting that guy that's a bad employee.

Yep, but we are talking about supporting a chain that practices bad husbandry from the top down, not a single bad employee at the LFS.
At the LFS, if the employee is bad, I can talk to the owner, who I have bothered to stirke up a continuing relationship with, and they will prolly take some action (At Petco, no action, and trust me, I have tried). And if they don't, or the employee, or the store, is just way out of line, I don't go there anymore. There are several LFS in my area that fall into the last catagory.

Oh, and although Petco is an organization, it's a store to store thing too because there are checklist for employee's to do when they open and close the store.

There is power in being a chain, thats why they do it. If one store is doing well selling item x, the head office wants all of them to try it - almost always missing the fact that its not the item that is doing well, rather the workers.

It's the employee's and the managers that lack in knowledge and that are lazy that makes it bad to shop, but there are good one's out there.

Like I said before, support one and you support them all. That is one of the reasons they are a chain.

It's just like LFS, sometimes you find good ones, and sometimes you find bad ones. You can't make a judgement on all of the stores because of one or two stores in your area. Your basically stereotyping it. [/B]

Thats exactly what you are supposed to do! In a chain store, the whole idea is to stereotype it; you go into one and you know what to expect. If one drifts too far from the corporate idea, the either close it or fire everyone.

Comparing indivdually owned LFS and Big Chains is comparing apples to oranges. They are simply two completely different beasts.

To a large extent, all petcos benifit from all other petcos.

[meister_ben]

My god, the arrogance in this forum! I work at Petco in Wisconsin and none of you have your stories straight! Gather facts before making a statement, use common sense!

Granted, not every Petco is perfect, some don't even try. I say shut THOSE stores down. The only reason the store is open is that it is making money. If that particular store does a crappy job in sales, it goes through a review, then possibly shut down. The store I work at has an impeccable record for healthy animals and customer awareness. I agree to a small extent what some of you are saying about bad husbandry. Everything that goes on at my store is ethical and legal. I oversee the entire aquatics department and I know EVERYTHING that goes on in there. I fought with management for months to get QT tanks and now our store has them. My job is NOT to sell sell sell like most of you think. My job is to educate the consumer who wishes to set up a little piece of the ocean in his or her home and let them know EVERY aspect of water quality, animal husbandry, maintenance, and so on. If any of you question Petco's ethics, take it up with corporate. I answer to my boss, the GM. He has a masters in marine biology. Half the people that work there have successful reef tanks. Sometimes the fish come in with ich or tail rot. We regularly medicate the entire system to ensure that the disease goes no further. Now we have QT tanks. If you have an issue with your local petco, ask to speak with the general manager or ask to contact the RCAC (regional companion animal coordinator) who will help you in any way they can. I've seen petcocruelty.com and was sickened. I couldn't believe that some of the petco's would actually do things like this. But I can assure you that my petco is one of the best in the country. PM me if you have any questions regarding our "evil practices." Think before you speak people, we're not as bad as you all think.

[UNCCwill]

you are absolutely right, but still petco is just what the name implies, a corporation, the shareholders only want to maximize their profit and hopefully (as it sounds at your store) the company realizes that taking care of the animals (and more commonly known, customers) is a good place to start, but on the other hand i have never been in a petco before, thats just basic economics

[meister_ben]

that holds true. the only reason they are in business is to make money. Above my GM, i don't care what goes on in the company as long as i can still take excellent care of my fish. i bring food from home, treatments, and other stuff to help them out. If something need something off of the shelf, I'll buy it and use it right away. I hope the company goes far and love working here. every area has a specialist. the only way they can get that job is an interview with the regional companion animal coordinator who is like a person from PETA. they are there to make sure that every living thing we sell is spoiled. they should get every amenity we have to offer, not just a rock and a plant. Everyone that works here loves their job and loves animals. and most of you who think that we're all in this for the benjamins, think again. one small mistake in caring for fish or other animals and we can get fired. We take great care of our animals and our customers. I love working at Petco and I think it's the greatest job i've ever had.

[Thales]

You are working in the extreme example of a petco. I have been to at least 6 petcos in northern california, and none of them have been anything but disgusting in the saltwater section. Your descriptions of customer service and employee focus and knowledge is 180 degrees from what I have seen.
I have spoken to the GM's of several of the petcos, and have been ignored and told 'its not up to me, its up to the DM's', while the DM's ignore my letters.
A petco can have great sales, but dismal husbandry and not be shut down. In fact, this is really the problem.
Do a search on petco here, or on any of the online reef fourms and you will quickly realize that your store is in the extreme minority, and that many have taken it up with corporate to have been dismissed and ignored.

[meister_ben]

on a different note, you have an angler?? sweet!

[Thales]

:D

[PeterRogers]

I worked at my PetCo for two years and on a large scale I changed diddily squat. On a smaller scale the sick fish got treated, water changes were done daily, the small reefs we had seperate from the main system was doted on, and I feel I genuinely helped many of my customers become more and more interested in this great hobby. But for everything good you do there are hundreds of "If it dies it dies" and "I KNOW it will only get as big as it's tank". And you try your hardest to convince these morons otherwise, and what happens? A manager comes over and sells a mandarin goby to that stupid son of a ***** you just spent 20 minutes explaining that "no, it would not be wise to put that fish in a tank with no live rock, it will slowly starve. The fish will suffer, and you will be out twelve dollars." Or almost as bad, you have to deal with "experts" who can't wait to expose you as some punk kid who hasn't got a clue. I threw myself into that job for two years. I got ****ed on by customers, pushed around by my managers, and ignored by upper management. Skydiver585, I'd reconsider your decision to work at PetCo.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by meister_ben
I fought with management for months to get QT tanks and now our store has them.
Originally posted by meister_ben
i bring food from home, treatments, and other stuff to help them out. If something need something off of the shelf, I'll buy it and use it right away. That shows a great deal of commitment on your part, and I think it's very respectable. At the same time, the fact that you fought for months to get QT tanks, and you buy supplies for Petco with your own money, is more evidence of exactly what people are talking about.

I think it would be great if you (or your boss) got promoted up the chain, because someone with your dedication would be a great person to "call the shots" IMO. But, the good thing about your Petco sounds like the employees, not Petco.

One thing we can agree on is that Petco does what it does for financial resons, and passes on those savings to the customer. As a customer, I'd rather pay LFS prices as a way of supporting LFS practices. If someone wants to save a few bucks at Petco, more power to them. Petco will be associated with poor salt water livestock practices until corporate Petco chances; If Petco doesn't like it, then Petco shouldn't have it's name on those stores.

[Aquabucket]

I am glad Ben chimed in on this thread. He is the reason why I mentioned earlier in the thread that the Petco here in Green Bay has a well kept fish department.

I can attest to his diligence in keeping the tanks clean and the fish healthy. Right now there is an absolutely beautiful and healthy tang doing quite well in one of the SW tanks. I have been keeping an eye on it for a week now.

Ben and his staff do a great job of clearing out dead fish. Ben also mentioned to me that he does indeed treat the tanks on occasion. Most of the fish in each tank appear healthy with a few having torn fins, etc. IMO the tanks and fish look as good if not better than many of the independent LFS I have seen.

[MFrance]

I say that Petco is the best Petstore in Southern Utah. Their fish and animals always look great and I always buy my supplies there because I can trust that they will last.

Just because there's a few rotten apples doesnt mean the whole box is bad.

[Thales]

Its not a few rotten apples, its quite the other way around.
Just because there are a few good apples in a box of rotten ones doesn't mean we should keep the box.

[wwxc]

If proper care isn't being promoted from above and is instead only occasionally practiced because each store manages to hire someone with a "conscience," there is something seriously wrong with the company.

I think most of us could care less that your Petco is one of the good ones. Bully for you. That still leaves another 1000 that have dying, diseased, malnourished, and poorly housed animals. As educated and as informed as people are on this board, I find it pretty unconscionable for anyone here to support Petco just because your local store is one of the few good ones. Its a chain, not a franchise.

[Aquabucket]

Originally posted by wwxc
I think most of us could care less that your Petco is one of the good ones. Bully for you. That still leaves another 1000 that have dying, diseased, malnourished, and poorly housed animals. As educated and as informed as people are on this board, I find it pretty unconscionable for anyone here to support Petco just because your local store is one of the few good ones. Its a chain, not a franchise.

This threads intentions were about the poster's concerns with taking a job or not. If he can make a difference locally for his PETCO than its another brick in the wall.

Anyone in this hobby who is critical enough to single out PETCO as an evil empire corporation need to look at the fact that the SW hobby is right up there. The rampant use of cyanide for collecting purposes. The massive dieoffs just begin there. The rest die during cramped shipping procedures, poor holding facilities, etc.. By purchasing wild caught fish we support these practices. I am sure we are all guilty of this, some more than others. Now lets count all the unethical private LFS, I have seen quite a few.

I think some of us here might be guilty of riding a high horse on this one.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Aquabucket
This threads intentions were about the poster's concerns with taking a job or not. If he can make a difference locally for his PETCO than its another brick in the wall.

Yep, another brick in the wall supporting petco and its horrible, corporate sanctioned husbandry practices.

Anyone in this hobby who is critical enough to single out PETCO as an evil empire corporation need to look at the fact that the SW hobby is right up there.

We are singling out petco because that is the subject of this thread.
While there are others aspects of this hobby that cause death, 1) they are not the topic of this thread, and 2) No one here is arguing for them.
Petco is an 'evil empire', and we are discussing it, and not other 'evil empires' because this thread is about petco.

The rampant use of cyanide for collecting purposes. The massive dieoffs just begin there. The rest die during cramped shipping procedures, poor holding facilities, etc.. By purchasing wild caught fish we support these practices. I am sure we are all guilty of this, some more than others. Now lets count all the unethical private LFS, I have seen quite a few.

Are you really saying because animals die in this hobby, we shouldn't be upset at the husbandry practices of petco? Others do it too, so its ok for petco? Doesn't that seem just a bit weird?

Again, if this thread was about bad practices in general, your point would be will taken. However, it isn't. Many have been pointing out the reasons not to work at petco - as you say, the original point of this thread.

I think some of us here might be guilty of riding a high horse on this one.

Why? Because some of us think that supporting a national chain that practices bad husbandry from the top down is a bad thing?

No on in this thread has tried to excuse any of the bad husbandry practiced elsewhere in the hobby. In fact, it hasn't even come up because we are talking about a specific chain of stores.
Ask a question about LFS that people don't support because of their bad husbandry, and you will get many examples from me alone - in fact, I already mentioned them in this thread.

[TheMandarinFish]

"I use the enemy
and I use anarchy" - Sex Pistols

I've considered getting a job there to undermine the company. Corporate monkeywrenching. Cancelling shipments, referring customers to a good LFS, tinkering with books, you name it.

PetCo is the worst. For those of you in remote locations with few options, I would stil recommend mail order.

Some day, come to a store called Tropical Paradise in San Leandro, CA (near Oakland / San Francisco) and you will see what a healthy reef store looks like.

[Aquabucket]

Lefty, you missed my point entirely.

The original poster wants to take the job so he can make a difference. I am not here to support PETCO. If you and some others here are so outraged why not do something about it like the poster of this thread is by taking the job? Write letters, take pictures, whatever you can think of. Venting on a message board will accomplish little.

The only way PETCO is going to change is from within, like what has happened here at the Green Bay store and some others mentioned. I was simply encouraging the original poster to take the job to try to make a difference. Now he has references and names from another PETCO store which is conducting business in a much more ethical matter than most PETCOs. Hopefully this information will benifit his situation.

His taking the job can be seen as supporting PETCO or as a manifest for change.

What supports PETCO is a capitalistic society and the consumers ability to save money. As long as this exists PETCO is not going to be closing its doors anytime soon. That does not mean that we as consumers are helpless to do anything about the unethical treatment of animals that occurs throughout PETCO's chain of stores. I think the best thing we can do is report, make complaints, take pictures,etc. regarding unethical practices you have witnessed yourself to the proper agencies.

I have recieved swift action from the ASPCA in the regard of cruelty to animals on several occasions.

Telling people on this board not to support PETCOs will not accomplish much IMO. Most already know what to expect. Many will still buy dry goods because they need to save money or have no other local source. PETCO has a very large consumer base to draw from and will continue to have this market base for some time to come.

I am just trying to encourage ideas that have a better chance of forcing change in regard to the horrible conditions many animals are subject to whether it be PETCO or any other pet or fish store.

Oh and BTW the subject of this thread is about PETCO but more specifically about what we can do to get this corporation to change it's practices. Which was the intent I believe of the original poster

Simply stating on a message board, "don't support PETCO" will do very little IMO.

Why not go down to your local PETCO and try to take some pics with a hidden camera, then document what you have seen and respond accordingly?

[Thales]

Originally posted by Aquabucket
Lefty, you missed my point entirely.

I will try again, maybe I will get it this time. You let me know if I get it or not.

The original poster wants to take the job so he can make a difference.

And I think taking the job will only enable petco to continue its practices.

I am not here to support PETCO.

Great.

If you and some others here are so outraged why not do something about it like the poster of this thread is by taking the job?

As has been explained several times, taking the job is not doing something about it, its helping the company continue.

Write letters, take pictures, whatever you can think of.

And as has been explained several times, I have.

Venting on a message board will accomplish little.

He asked for opinions and some were given - and I at least havent been venting. I don't understand why you feel the need to try to control what is discussed on discussion boards.

The only way PETCO is going to change is from within, like what has happened here at the Green Bay store and some others mentioned.

I disagree. Its like saying the only way to change the KKK is to join it. It will change faster if people stop shopping there and tell them why.

I was simply encouraging the original poster to take the job to try to make a difference.

And I was simply encouraging the original poster to not take the job, because taking the job supports petco and it practices.

Now he has references and names from another PETCO store which is conducting business in a much more ethical matter than most PETCOs. Hopefully this information will benifit his situation.

2 or 3 good petcos out of hundreds or thousands. Do the math.
If he has done a simple search on reef boards he has dozens of examples to show that exactly what he is thinking about doing has has no effect whatsoever.

His taking the job can be seen as supporting PETCO or as a manifest for change.

And I think it is supporting petco, and will continue to point that out as I see fit.

What supports PETCO is a capitalistic society and the consumers ability to save money. As long as this exists PETCO is not going to be closing its doors anytime soon. That does not mean that we as consumers are helpless to do anything about the unethical treatment of animals that occurs throughout PETCO's chain of stores. I think the best thing we can do is report, make complaints, take pictures,etc. regarding unethical practices you have witnessed yourself to the proper agencies.

AND not support the company.

I have recieved swift action from the ASPCA in the regard of cruelty to animals on several occasions.

Great.

Telling people on this board not to support PETCOs will not accomplish much IMO.

We disagree.

Most already know what to expect. Many will still buy dry goods because they need to save money or have no other local source. PETCO has a very large consumer base to draw from and will continue to have this market base for some time to come.

And if people on this board really really cared about the way petco treats sw animals, they wouldn't shop there, regardless of the 3 dollars they save.

I am just trying to encourage ideas that have a better chance of forcing change in regard to the horrible conditions many animals are subject to whether it be PETCO or any other pet or fish store.

Go for it - just don't get upset when others disagree with you.

Oh and BTW the subject of this thread is about PETCO but more specifically about what we can do to get this corporation to change it's practices. Which was the intent I believe of the original poster

And...what? I don't get it - who is disagreeing with that?

Simply stating on a message board, "don't support PETCO" will do very little IMO.

Who did that? And, I disagree. If people don't shop there...

Why not go down to your local PETCO and try to take some pics with a hidden camera, then document what you have seen and respond accordingly?

A little arrogant, don't you think. I mean, considering that you have no idea what steps I have taken in regards to petco, nor it seems have you taken the time to read all the posts in this thread.

[Aquabucket]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<b>Why not go down to your local PETCO and try to take some pics with a hidden camera, then document what you have seen and respond accordingly?</b>

This statement was not completly intended towards just yourself, but also to others who may want to try to make a difference.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<b>Go for it - just don't get upset when others disagree with you.</b>

I am not upset at all. I just disagree with your opinion of skydiver's decision to take the job and how to accomplish changes to individual PETCO stores.

[TheMandarinFish]

"Hangin's too good for him.
Buuuuuuuuuurnin's too good for him.
He should be torn into little tiny pieces...
and buried alive." - Hanover Fist, in the film Heavy Metal

http://www.electriciti.com/nm8shun/hm127.gif

I say get the job, free the animals, then when you close the store at night burn it to the ground and salt the Earth where it once stood.

PetCo *is* evil. And must be destroyed.

Get a job for poachers and convince them of the error of their ways.

They might listen.

Klansmen and PetCo execs won't.

The former have made a pseudo-science / cult / ignorance club of intolerance.

They latter are aspiring to be the Wal-Mart of domestic animals.

Wild caught ones too. :mad2:

[nanocat]

Originally posted by Lefty
And if people on this board really really cared about the way petco treats sw animals, they wouldn't shop there, regardless of the 3 dollars they save.

If they were saving 3 dollars, I think you'd be right. Unfortunately in many cases like in salt, it's more like 15 or 20 dollars. I see many seasoned reefers posting about Petco or Petsmart salt deals.

The Petco around me looks cleaner than many LFS, carries ORA clowns, and doesn't tell people to put a yellow tang in a 7g. minibow. They test water for free and use ALL the strips, unlike the LFS which uses the strip for nitrate, takes one look and says yes or no. I've been in the dept. buying drygoods and overheard the young clerk tell people many times that they could not have a fish yet, as they were not done cycling.

Good grief, I can't believe I'm defending Petco :mixed:
I just thought I'd say that they aren't all hell holes. Sounds like the ones in larger cities with more competition do a slightly better job :confused:

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Aquabucket
Venting on a message board will accomplish little. Thank you for venting that information.

Originally posted by Lefty
IAnd if people on this board really really cared about the way petco treats sw animals, they wouldn't shop there, regardless of the 3 dollars they save. :thumbsup: I shell out a few extra bucks at my LFS for just that reason. I go to Petco for one reason: to look at something I want to buy off the internet (to see if it looks like a good product) if my LFS doesn't have it.

Originally posted by nanocat
If they were saving 3 dollars, I think you'd be right. Unfortunately in many cases like in salt, it's more like 15 or 20 dollars. I see many seasoned reefers posting about Petco or Petsmart salt deals.
In most cases you are right, but now and then the online places have free shipping specials on salt-but maby not on the brand you want. My local petco only carries 50-gal <edit> IO, so ordering on-line and paying for shipping to get a 200-gal bucket still cost less than going to Petco.

[Thales]

Please change my earlier statement to 'And if people on this board really really cared about the way petco treats sw animals, they wouldn't shop there, regardless of the 10 - 15 dollars they save.'

[bmb527]

I have 2 PETCO's in my area, one has a beautiful fish dept., one has sub-par salt and great fresh water. I do a considerable ammount of business with the one that has a great salt/fresh dept.. Not because I like their fish or aquatic supplies, but it is most convenient for me as I have 2 Akitas, 2 large parrots, and 4 aquariums to buy supplies for. It all comes down to this, if a particular store has good people that care for the animals they have and see to their well being, support that! The ones that don't avoid that store. They have sales reports that tell them which stores sell stuff and which ones don't. They stop selling things that sit around and collect dust after a while. I know this because my wife WAS a supervisor for PETCO for 2 years. She quit because they could not meet her schedule for school. The store she worked at treated their animals VERY well, a vet came by weekly to look at the animals and treated the ones that needed it, and if one came down with something, it went to one of the top animal hospitals in the nation. They are good enough that animal planet has a show about them called "Emergency Vets".
Petco is no different than any other LFS in that the store is only as good as the employees and store management. There are plenty of pet stores out there that will sell you a grouper and a mandarin to put in your 10 gal. tank or sell you a Macaw with a cage meant for a cockatiel. To sum it all up, reward good behavior with your business, punish bad by avoiding them like the plague! Well, so much for my first post! It's nice to be here and see so many people care for their animals.
Bill

[Trumpet12]

bmb527,

WELCOME TO REEF CENTRAL!!!

[vitz]

i'll second, third, fourth, and fifth, all those who advise against working for, or purchasing from, any of the 'petco type' stores.

i had the displeasure of working in a petsmart for awhile, once-both companies are what we call a 'formula' store, where a store template is decided upon at a regional/head office, and then used to plan every store-the idea being to make them as identical in layout and stock as possible, according to a 'planogram'.

none of their decisions are based on livestock requirements, or health-50 of specie 'x' dies, it gets replaced automatically.

the 'correct knowledge' to have is determined by the company's head office, w/regards to the animal husbandry, and advice you should 'give out' in the store, and is rarely written by anyone w/a clue

one company in particular uses a method of 'secret shopper', where a company rep goes into a store, and grades an employee on their sales ability, and advice

i've seen many a naive employee give out correct advice, only to be graded against by the co. rep, who's handbook said differently ;)


the only thing you will ever accomplish by working for, or patronizing, an large chain store is the guaranteed slow death of many many animals, and all of the environmental residual damage that will ensue.far worse an option than the smaller amount that may be saved by you in the short term;)


how any aquarist w/a shred of conscience towards the reefs can support/work at these places is beyond me, even if it IS to save a good hunk o' change

some things just ain't worth contributing to, to save some money

just my $0.02

[vitz]

Originally posted by meister_ben
that holds true. the only reason they are in business is to make money. Above my GM, i don't care what goes on in the company as long as i can still take excellent care of my fish. i bring food from home, treatments, and other stuff to help them out. If something need something off of the shelf, I'll buy it and use it right away. I hope the company goes far and love working here. every area has a specialist. the only way they can get that job is an interview with the regional companion animal coordinator who is like a person from PETA. they are there to make sure that every living thing we sell is spoiled. they should get every amenity we have to offer, not just a rock and a plant. Everyone that works here loves their job and loves animals. and most of you who think that we're all in this for the benjamins, think again. one small mistake in caring for fish or other animals and we can get fired. We take great care of our animals and our customers. I love working at Petco and I think it's the greatest job i've ever had.


" i bring food from home, treatments, and other stuff to help them out."

that's noble and commendable on your part :)


i would think that the fact they are lacking in stuff you have commonly available at hand at home for care of the animals should speak volumes to you

;)

[KT & SJ]

I couldn't agree more with Vitz. You took the words right out of my mouth. Not all of these oceanic animals are aquacultured, as far as I have been able to find out only a handfull are, with success. That leaves suppliers reliant upon the our oceans to provide them with the vast majority of these animals. Very few natural recources provided by our planet are undepleteable. On top of being stressed from the move they are then put through the riggors of improper husbandry practices. It is not fair to the animal to subject it to such deploreable conditions as found in many petcos(and some LFS's) I've seen. I't amazes me that some survive this whole ordeal. I have read other threads reguarding petco and some have said that in order to support the few good ones we must support the abundant bad ones. Hmmmm, sacrificeing the many for the few, just doesn't make moral sence. If they treated thier non-aquatics as bad as they treat thier aquatics they wouldn't last a day in buisness. Needless to say, I don't shop at Petco for these reasons. Wether they live on land or in the water, animal cruelty is animal cruelty. But that's just my opinion :)

[skydiver585]

And this is why im so torn. I want to stop the animal cruelty and educate the people of the area so that they can make a sound decision on why they shouldnt be buying from certain stores etc. Idont support what petco does and if i can show other people why its wrong, then this battle is making progress.

[TheMandarinFish]

Matt - you didn't hear me.

They fire guys like you. Plain and simple. I have been in many PetCo's and spoken to maaaaaaannnnyyyy employees.

The ones with conscience or knowledge are cut for making waves, then replaced by another high school kid without a clue.

In the spirit of St. Patricks Day...

Leprechaun: "You've done grand laddy! Now you know what you have to do! Burn the house down! BURN 'EM ALL!"

http://home.earthlink.net/~scofield99/images/leprechaun.jpg

[KT & SJ]

I stopped by petco for dog food and asked if they had live sand. All they had was that pre packaged aragonite wet sand from last year. When I told her that I was looking for live sand samples w/ the spaghetti worms etc. in it, she referred me to a local lfs in the area that had some. See they are good for something..... Directions.

[Scuba_Dave]

I go into Petco, but never buy anything. Not much for SW in the store near me. Not that I would by anything anyways.
I did buy 10 buckets of salt from Petsmart, about $24 a bucket shipped to my house. That should hold me for a while.
other then that...I'll pass
and as far as correcting their ways of doing things wrong....:lol:

Ok, i'm getting back up off the floor. Good luck, but I have found those who rock the boat get fired. I proved that my boss had totally screwed things up & was the problem & the entire dept working for her agreed that something needed to be done...about a dozen people...
Guess who's no longer there...? Yup, she is still there & still mucking things up....and I'm not....
the other guys just nodded there heads & agreed.
I have a new job & enjoy myself again...they hate their jobs & their boss....:D

[tptp279]

well, when i worked for Petco and we had a new manager, we could always report that manager, and if more than half the employee's state so, then that manager is replaced. I was there at one of those points when my original manager wanted to go back to school, so we got a new manager, we didn't agree with her ways so we asked for her to be replace which she was in about 2 months. Everything worked out fine there, so managers are able to be replaced, you just gotta speak up.

[staticfishmonger]

the great thing is in my area petco is the most expensive place to shop. i save $10 on salt by not going there as well as many other supplies. the problem is even if every saltwater fish keep stopped buying from them they would still be in buissness they sell so much other stuff for other pets. the best we could hope for is that they would stop selling fish. i say dont work there, dont buy anything even dry goods, dont even go in the store and spread the word. boycott petco........ ha like thats going to work....lol

[wwxc]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040312/retail_petco_stocks_1.html

[TheMandarinFish]

Looks like all the stealing and looting and monkeywrenching I do at their stores is finally paying off.

"There goes our best customer... he shops here all the time. Never seems to ring anything up at the register, but he sure does help us unload our stock."

"Speaking of stock, did you hear our shares are down?"

[Shoestring Reefer]

That article said the stock was down 3.7 percent at the end of the day, but "The stock has more than doubled in the past 52 weeks"..."and said sales at stores open at least a year -- a key gauge of retail strength known as same-store sales -- rose 5.6(%) from a year earlier."

I don't think Petco is hurtin', and good for them; I don't want to see the cashiers and people stocking dog food loose their jobs, I just don't want to shop at a place that has several gold mollies with only one eye.

[TheMandarinFish]

It's highschool kids, Mike.

They can work for someone else.

These aren't people feeding families on the box-store minimum wage they make.

[bmb527]

There's quite a few people who work there that are not high school kids. Some people are going through college, some just NEED the job to help bring money into their household. There are MANY companies that do far worse things to animals and the environment than mistreat a few fish, Union Carbide, 3M and all the mining companies come to mind. Is anyone saying that we should not take employment from them? I didn't think so. Maybe we should all boycott the companies that produce the acrylic and other chemical based items in our hobby.

[Thales]

Originally posted by bmb527
There are MANY companies that do far worse things to animals and the environment than mistreat a few fish, Union Carbide, 3M and all the mining companies come to mind. Is anyone saying that we should not take employment from them? I didn't think so.

How can you possibly make a blanket statement like that without actually letting people answer for themselves?
And are you really making the argument that since other companies do worse than Petco, what Petco does is OK?


Maybe we should all boycott the companies that produce the acrylic and other chemical based items in our hobby.

Show us evidence that they are willfully doing damage to the enviornment, and that there are simple alternatives to their current practices, and most here will prolly agree.

[Sp0ngeb0b]

Holy COW this is a heated thread! :(

[Trumpet12]

I thought that it might make sense to point this website out to anyone who who dislikes Petco and has not found this.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/443442871?ts=1079734909&sign

[TheMandarinFish]

There are MANY companies that do far worse things to animals and the environment than mistreat a few fish, Union Carbide, 3M and all the mining companies come to mind. Is anyone saying that we should not take employment from them? I didn't think so. Maybe we should all boycott the companies that produce the acrylic and other chemical based items in our hobby.


Prove to me that acrylic production in America necessitates the genocide of reef animals.

Yeah, don't work for Union Carbide, 3M, Monsanto, EXXON, etc. either.

duh.

This is why companies get boycotted, except by idiots that think Wal-Mart is a product made in America with someone bearing a happy face while they work.

Truth is, it's children in Guam being chained to desks and beaten for not working quickly enough.

"But I save $1.37 when I go to the box store that brutalizes children and animals. God bless American capitalism. How else can I afford to take my SUV to McDonalds?"

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Lefty
Show us evidence that they are willfully doing damage to the enviornment, and that there are simple alternatives to their current practices, and most here will prolly agree. Well, isn't that what we're talking about with Petco? The Petco Corporation may not be willfully giving fish ich, and they may not be willfully giving bad advice, they are just neglegent in not doing better. Will we hold Petco to different standards than we do other companies?

As far as the whole "boycot everyone who isn't an environmental gem" stance, I'll boycott everyone on the day I'm prepared to live with the Amish. For now, I'll just not shop at the worst-known offenders.

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Prove to me that acrylic production in America necessitates the genocide of reef animals. Why only reef animals? And why only produced in America? Import acrylic is available in the states.

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
It's highschool kids, Mike.

They can work for someone else.

These aren't people feeding families on the box-store minimum wage they make. Jobs are jobs, and loosing jobs is never a good thing-unless you've been watching "Fight Club" a few times too many.

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Yeah, don't work for Union Carbide, 3M, Monsanto, EXXON, etc. either.

duh.
"duh"? I don't work for them, either, but I've got mouths to feed so I would work there if need be. It's easy to single out companies like Exxon because they dumped the oil on American shores.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
[B]Well, isn't that what we're talking about with Petco?

Yep. Thats why we are talking about not shopping ther.

The Petco Corporation may not be willfully giving fish ich, and they may not be willfully giving bad advice, they are just neglegent in not doing better.

At this point, I don't believe they are simply neglegent. This discussion has been going on on too many reef boards for too many years, and too many people have been in touch with petco corporate to believe they aren't aware of what is going on in their stores.

Will we hold Petco to different standards than we do other companies?

I don't think so. However, this thread is talking about petco, and I think the move to the argument 'well there are other compainies that are bad that you aren't complaining about' is a bad move. First, it distracts from the current discussion and second, none of us has any idea how any of the others act towards other compaines.

As far as the whole "boycot everyone who isn't an environmental gem" stance, I'll boycott everyone on the day I'm prepared to live with the Amish. For now, I'll just not shop at the worst-known offenders.

Fair enough, and I think it is what most people do. As long as we aren't rationalizing the behavior of other companines because we really really want what they sell. I has almost no issue with someone shopping at a company that does bad things if they are aware of those bad things and choose to shop there anyway. However, to excuse those bad things because you really want their products seems icky.

Why only reef animals?

Cause this is a reef board.
:D

Jobs are jobs, and loosing jobs is never a good thing-unless you've been watching "Fight Club" a few times too many.

At the same time, proping up jobs simply because the are jobs seems odd to me.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Lefty
At this point, I don't believe they are simply neglegent. This discussion has been going on on too many reef boards for too many years, and too many people have been in touch with petco corporate to believe they aren't aware of what is going on in their stores. Ok, neglectful rather than negligent. I stand corrected.

As far as the rest of that paragraph is concerned, forget it; I think I quoted your post by accident, and for the life of me I can't figure out who I ment to quote.:o

Originally posted by Lefty
Fair enough, and I think it is what most people do. As long as we aren't rationalizing the behavior of other companines because we really really want what they sell. I has almost no issue with someone shopping at a company that does bad things if they are aware of those bad things and choose to shop there anyway. However, to excuse those bad things because you really want their products seems icky. I agree 100% :thumbsup: Actually, there have been times when I have really wanted what they sell, and it's a PITA waiting to get it from an on-line store.

Originally posted by Lefty
At the same time, proping up jobs simply because the are jobs seems odd to me. I guess there's always welfare.

Since you brought it up :) :

As production, agriculture and shipping get more and more efficient, the percent of our population needed to do those jobs gets smaller and smaller, but there is still enough goods to go around with abundance. Eventually, you end up with a system that can provide for 100% of it's population with far less than 100% of the people contributing. In that situation, you can just put some people on welfare and let them be supported; you can let everyone work less; or you can prop up some un-needed jobs to keep the apparent status quo that "you get what they work for (hopefully)".

The benefit of proping up jobs is that you can get those potentially unemployed people doing something that benefits others, instead of sitting around watching the boob tube.

[Thales]

Fun discussion!


The benefit of proping up jobs is that you can get those potentially unemployed people doing something that benefits others, instead of sitting around watching the boob tube. [/B]

You betcha! I was talking about the other kind of proping up jobs; there are no more trees, but lets pay people to cut them anyway.
The kind you are talking about I agree with - lets just get them 'responsible' jobs instead of proping up silly jobs like working at petco! ;D

[Trumpet12]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Truth is, it's children in Guam being chained to desks and beaten for not working quickly enough.


I'm not trying to be critical, but I was wondering if you have a source that backs that up.

[TheMandarinFish]

WalMart and child labor here - this is a start: http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bwalmart+child+sweatshop&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Mr. Burns - keep giving them your money. If you don't have the character to boycott, then you don't have the character. Your loss.
Why only reef animals? And why only produced in America? Import acrylic is available in the states.
Because that is what you brought up. I buy acrylic locally, and they don't dump toxins in reefs. But that's not the point is it? This thread is about PetCo.
Jobs are jobs, and loosing jobs is never a good thing-unless you've been watching "Fight Club" a few times too many.
I'm a heartless bastard for not thinking about all those unemployed slave overseers, old growth forest clear-cut lumberjacks, cyanide fishermen, concentration camp oven workers, drunk oil tanker captains, child pornographers, animal genocide box-store employees, heroin pushers, tiger poachers, and mustard gas producers, huh?

Because "loosing" jobs is never a good thing.
duh"? I don't work for them, either, but I've got mouths to feed so I would work there if need be. It's easy to single out companies like Exxon because they dumped the oil on American shores.
Yeah, it is easy to single out Exxon, since they dumped 40,000 tons of crude oil into Prince William Sound. Have you seen the footage? The piles of oil-soaked bald eagle, cormorant, and otter corpses were taller than you.

All jobs are good jobs. Keep buying from PetCo.

Let's quickly review, in case you are unaware, PetCo massacres all kinds of animals. We're just discussing reef creatures here.

[TheMandarinFish]

Mike - I think we're on the same page, and I made an extreme point.

But fundamentally, who cares if the Flying Monkeys are in front of the idiot box? As long as the Wicked Witch is out of business, Oz is a much, much better place.

We all contribute for good and ill - of course these animals belong in reefs and not glass boxes, but PetCo is an abbatoir, a slaughterhouse of creatures so beloved that people find them compelling as companions. Exxon and Walmart are in their own class.

(sorry for the double post, but time had expired so I couldn't edit - not my favorite quirk of this board / software)

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by bmb527
Maybe we should all boycott the companies that produce the acrylic and other chemical based items in our hobby. Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Prove to me that acrylic production in America necessitates the genocide of reef animals.[i] Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
Why only reef animals? And why only produced in America? Import acrylic is available in the states.
Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Because that is what you brought up. I buy acrylic locally, and they don't dump toxins in reefs. But that's not the point is it? This thread is about PetCo. Umm, bmb527 brought it up. I find it funny when people use off-topic examples and reply to off-topic posts until they run out of clever responses, and they post stuff like "that's off topic.":lol: If you want to keep on topic, why don't you take 5 minutes to do a search to find out which companies have spilled crude in equatorial/tropical regions and had direct impact on reefs, instead of posting the first company to come to mind because it's the one that impacted America. By the way, what brand acrylic do you buy "locally"?Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
Jobs are jobs, and loosing jobs is never a good thing-unless you've been watching "Fight Club" a few times too many. Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
I'm a heartless bastard for not thinking about all those unemployed slave overseers, old growth forest clear-cut lumberjacks, cyanide fishermen, concentration camp oven workers, drunk oil tanker captains, child pornographers, animal genocide box-store employees, heroin pushers, tiger poachers, and mustard gas producers, huh?

Because "loosing" jobs is never a good thing. I was talking about job loss, not the loss of a particular job.

FYI, Wal-Mart is the single-largest employer in America, and Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people. There are some people who want those companies to use better practices, and others that want the companies out of business. I am one of the former, and you appear to be one of the latter. Do you believe the solution to every organization that has bad practices is to shut it down? Why not extend that to colleges and countries? I believe the solution is to correct the activity, not to destroy the company.

[bmb527]

I agree w/ Shoestring Reefer on the subject of wanting Petco to simply improve the way they treat all animals. Period! There is no such thing as a " silly" job, we all need jobs.
As for using "off-topic" examples, when it comes down to it regarding our oceans and reefs, no source of damage to our planet is "off-topic". The companies that pollute Middle America don't only pollute OUR atmosphere, it all travels around the world. The same goes for foreign companies. Tell me where acid rain finally flows to,... thats right, OUR OCEANS!
As for staying "on-topic", how many of us contribute to reef loss by buying Fiji, Tonga, Marshall Island rock? They pay someone next to nothing to go break pieces off the reefs by the ton! The corals we keep also come from these reefs as do most of our fish. I disagree with the way Petco Corporation cares for their animals for the most part, but in my opinion, there are much worse enemies to our worlds animals, land or sea, than Petco. If people don't wish to do business with Petco, that is their choice, but, for me, it is less costly in many ways to buy a limited number of things there because in order to get the items I need for my animals at better stores, it would take all day driving to stores all over town, wasting gas, not to mention my time. Petco has the brands of food I feed my dogs, as well as my birds, at a price that is less than specialty stores that are spread out all over Denver. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on some of the sub-topics of this subject.
Bill

[Thales]

Originally posted by bmb527
I agree w/ Shoestring Reefer on the subject of wanting Petco to simply improve the way they treat all animals. Period!

I agree, except for the 'period' part. I would also be pretty happy if they went out of business.

There is no such thing as a " silly" job, we all need jobs.

I disagree, there are plenty of silly jobs. Paying a man to cut down trees that nobody wants cut down is pretty silly, and my grandfather in law hired someone to do just that because that someone needed a job.

As for using "off-topic" examples, when it comes down to it regarding our oceans and reefs, no source of damage to our planet is "off-topic".

But don't they just confuse the issue at hand?

The companies that pollute Middle America don't only pollute OUR atmosphere, it all travels around the world. The same goes for foreign companies. Tell me where acid rain finally flows to,... thats right, OUR OCEANS!

I don't really understand what this has to do with petcos husbandry practices.


As for staying "on-topic", how many of us contribute to reef loss by buying Fiji, Tonga, Marshall Island rock? They pay someone next to nothing to go break pieces off the reefs by the ton! The corals we keep also come from these reefs as do most of our fish.

Again, I don't see what this has to do with petcos husbandry practices.

I disagree with the way Petco Corporation cares for their animals for the most part, but in my opinion, there are much worse enemies to our worlds animals, land or sea, than Petco.

So go fight them. I don't understand why feeling that there are worse enemies should have an effect on people wanting to fight petco.

If people don't wish to do business with Petco, that is their choice, but, for me, it is less costly in many ways to buy a limited number of things there because in order to get the items I need for my animals at better stores, it would take all day driving to stores all over town, wasting gas, not to mention my time.

Then you shouldn't really complain about petco. No antagonism there - you have done the calculation and found petco to be the lesser of two evils.

Petco has the brands of food I feed my dogs, as well as my birds, at a price that is less than specialty stores that are spread out all over Denver.

So petco's treatment of animals is OK for you because they save you time and money. Fair enough.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on some of the sub-topics of this subject.
Bill

Only if you believe that the subtopics cancel out the problems at petco. I think they both exist at the same time.

[TheMandarinFish]

Mr. Burns - how are you fixing PetCo or improving their animal care?
FYI, Wal-Mart is the single-largest employer in America, and Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people. And this makes their business ethical and you justify giving them money because of this? The minimum wage and illegal immigrant labor at below-minimum wage?

I'm not saying Shell Oil shouldn't be boycotted, BTW. It's short sighted to assume I am unfamiliar with the environmental devastation wrought by companies other than just Exxon, isn't it?

[crzy4reefs]

i would just like to say that i worked at a petco, i was the manager of fish and reptiles...the animals that were under my care were taken great care of. since the petco i worked at didn't do live rock or corals things like that. the only salt water fish i ordered were a few yellow tangs, maybe a kole tang and sailfin tang. we had many clowns but i did my best to not order that many and i put a few in each tank. i was very carefull about the fish i would get, never ordered mandarins, or jawfish (we had cc not sand in our tanks), i worked there for 6 yrs i just got tired of the bull**** of them not caring me putting my heart and sole into making sure these animals survied i just had to quit, not the place has gone down the tubes they put 5 mandarin in one tank, a bunch of grammas in one tank. about 20 clarkii,marroon, tomato clowns in 10 gal tanks. they are always having sick fish and things like that. i set up qt tanks in the back room and took care of the new fish there and i have never once had a problem with sick fish. but that's my story, it's just not worth it to work there, they don't care about anything except money and that's the truth. they are two faced people,

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by bmb527

As for staying "on-topic", how many of us contribute to reef loss by buying Fiji, Tonga, Marshall Island rock? Guilty. I bought 10 lbs, used it to seed my tank, and then gave it to another reefer. All of my rock is DIY concrete/crushed oyster shell rock, and I just ordered some mined limestone/former reef rock from ebay. But those were financial decisions, not an environmental one.

But, on the topic of rock, using dry base rock and seeding with live rock is less expensive AND more environmentally friendly. It just takes longer.

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish

Mr. Burns - how are you fixing PetCo or improving their animal care?Clearly I'm not. I've sent A few emails, recommended against them, and have stopped shopping there, but I have done nothing to fix PetCo or improving their animal care.

You have chosen to identify me as Mr. Burns a few times, and that's great because it adds fun to the thread. I'll have to keep that as my avatar or people will get confused. Please remember that, like many others here, my avatar is a picture of a character that I find entertaining. I am an almost-middle-aged engineer with a wife and two daughters, and I like shelter cats because it's really special when they learn to trust me and sleep in my lap. I would like to stop fish neglect and keep jobs at the same time. It sounds like you can't wait to put people out of work. Who really sounds more like Mr. Burns?

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI, Wal-Mart is the single-largest employer in America, and Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this makes their business ethical and you justify giving them money because of this? The minimum wage and illegal immigrant labor at below-minimum wage?If you want to have a discussion, please read my posts and try to understand what I typed. I know it's hard when things are not spelled out in black and white, especially for young people. Your enthusiasm is great, so I'll repeat what I posted before:

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
I believe the solution is to correct the activity, not to destroy the company.If there are two potential solutions, and one solution retains jobs while the other looses jobs, which solution do you prefer?

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
The minimum wage and illegal immigrant labor at below-minimum wage?If those jobs are taken away, how will the lives of those employees be improved. Will they "just find another job"? If so, why don't they just do that now?

Those illegal immigrants actually prefer to come to America and get below-minimum wage jobs, rather than be in thir native country. They made a major life-altering decision to do that. Do you believe that they were happy to loose their Wal-Mart jobs? Are they all making $15.50/hr now? Busting Wal-Mart was good for Americans because Americans are getting the jobs that the illegal immigration labor worked at. The American labor may cost more, and thus drive up prices a bit, but the employees will be spending the money in America instead of sending it to people in other countries.

Busting Wal-Mart was good for Americans and the American Economy, but it was not good for the illegal immigrant laborers.

[Shoestring Reefer]

shanna,

Other employees have posted here saying they have bent over backwards to keep a good fish department. It's too bad that one good apple (like you) can't save the whole bunch.

[crzy4reefs]

yes i did all i could while i was there, passing on my knowledge to other employees...but to be honest they'll hire anybody, we are dispesible objects to them ( i think i spelled that correctly) i just got tired of a highschool job, i needed more so know i'm a manager of a doggy daycare center, i just really wish petco would start to care about the animals in there care. it cost money to do things right and they just don't get it. thanks for the nice reply shoestring

[redpaulhus]

All of the Petco-basher's should really try working a Saturday or Sunday shift in a Petco.

After you've had 4 people try to buy Nemo and a bowl and get mad at you when you wouldn't sell it to them, or threaten to get you fired because you won't sell them a 3rd oscar for thier 20g tank, you might have a little more understanding.

Petco is the supermarket of LFS. Do you picket your supermarket because they sell live lobsters for people to take home and kill ?

Petco sells Bob Fenner's book, and Tullock's, and Scott Michaels "500 Reef Fishes". If a customer doesn't want to read them (or wants to read them but ignore the advice) do you want the salesperson to argue with them ? Hit them with the book maybe ? Don't let them buy a fish without first taking a written test ?

Yes, the stores should pay the employees better, getting and keeping better (more knowledgeable) employees. But that means higher prices.
And why do most people shop at chain LFS rather than small LFS ?

Price.

If one new employee at one Petco\petsmart provides better-than-normal service to ONE customer each week, and that customer goes on to read online, and research, and learn, isn't that worth it ?
Because for every one customer who appreciates the help, there will be 20 who swear (literally, F-bombs and everything) at the employee. There will be customers who tell that employee that they only have 10 gallons and the emperor angel they already have will just have to deal with it, too bad.

And for every bad Petco there is a bad mom-and-pop LFS, where they still use UG filters and insist on crushed coral substates and swear that Robert P Vaughn's book is the most up to date one available (and why don't you buy one of our nice Mill Puppies while your here ?)

Can some Petco's be bad ? Are some Petco's bad ? Certainly. Like any business there are good and there are bad. Don't expect MH lighting, don't expect SPS corals. But it doesn't have to be horrible -- the good stores are the ones who have staff that care. If all the caring staff decided not to work for Petco, then they'd just hire more of the kids who end up selling stereo's at the mall - kids who aren't going to be adding garlic to food, and bringing cheato in from their 'fuge, and feeding the fish mysids and cyclopseeze they paid for out of their own pockets...
and Petco will be one step closer to the Walmarts that sell fish...
:(

When I hear about stores selling nurse sharks, moorish idols, flame scallops, half-dead gonoporia, orange filefish, black pacu, and sturgeons, its always a small LFS, not the big chains...

[Thales]

Originally posted by redpaulhus
[B]All of the Petco-basher's should really try working a Saturday or Sunday shift in a Petco.

After you've had 4 people try to buy Nemo and a bowl and get mad at you when you wouldn't sell it to them, or threaten to get you fired because you won't sell them a 3rd oscar for thier 20g tank, you might have a little more understanding.

Understanding of what? How does this possibly justify the kind of treatment the vast majority of petcos practice on their livestock?

Petco is the supermarket of LFS. Do you picket your supermarket because they sell live lobsters for people to take home and kill ?

I am not sure I understand the comparison. Aren't the lobsters sold for that reason - to be killed? Don't people complain if the lobsters are kept poorly?

Petco sells Bob Fenner's book, and Tullock's, and Scott Michaels "500 Reef Fishes". If a customer doesn't want to read them (or wants to read them but ignore the advice) do you want the salesperson to argue with them ? Hit them with the book maybe ? Don't let them buy a fish without first taking a written test ?

I am confused. Above you seemed to say that petco employees did in fact not sell people animals if they thought they were incapable of keeping them well. Now it seems you are arguing the opposite.

Yes, the stores should pay the employees better, getting and keeping better (more knowledgeable) employees. But that means higher prices.
And why do most people shop at chain LFS rather than small LFS ?

Price.

And if you think saving 15 or 20 or even 50 bucks on a hobby that cost thousands is worth the wholsale poor husbandry practices at petco, by all means save the money. I, and many other, think such savings is short term thinking.
Shouldn't we be willing to pay a little bit more to support responsible husbandry? It seems so easy to do.
And, I don't think most reef people, or aquarium people, shop chains over LFS.

If one new employee at one Petco\petsmart provides better-than-normal service to ONE customer each week, and that customer goes on to read online, and research, and learn, isn't that worth it ?

No.
As has been stated many times in this thread, the one customer a week hardly balances the thousands of other worse than normal employees that petco hires. Petco is a chain, support one store and you support them all. One good apple doesn't make a rotten bunch worth keeping.

Because for every one customer who appreciates the help, there will be 20 who swear (literally, F-bombs and everything) at the employee. There will be customers who tell that employee that they only have 10 gallons and the emperor angel they already have will just have to deal with it, too bad.

Seems like good reasons to try to get petco to not sell saltwater animals. If the animals werent so cheap and disposable (as petco projects) the problem wouldn't be so huge.

And for every bad Petco there is a bad mom-and-pop LFS, where they still use UG filters and insist on crushed coral substates and swear that Robert P Vaughn's book is the most up to date one available (and why don't you buy one of our nice Mill Puppies while your here ?)

And we don't shop at those.
I really don't understand the 'there are others that are also bad, so lay off petco' mentality.

Can some Petco's be bad ? Are some Petco's bad ? Certainly. Like any business there are good and there are bad. Don't expect MH lighting, don't expect SPS corals. But it doesn't have to be horrible -- the good stores are the ones who have staff that care.

And the few good stores encourage corporate to continue to fund the saltwater sections of the bad stores - and there are many many many more bad than good.

If all the caring staff decided not to work for Petco, then they'd just hire more of the kids who end up selling stereo's at the mall - kids who aren't going to be adding garlic to food, and bringing cheato in from their 'fuge, and feeding the fish mysids and cyclopseeze they paid for out of their own pockets...
and Petco will be one step closer to the Walmarts that sell fish...
:(

And soon enough they will see that selling SW animals that way is not cost effective and they will stop. To use an inflamatory and over used anology, supporting the good petcos is like supporting the good concentration camps.

When I hear about stores selling nurse sharks, moorish idols, flame scallops, half-dead gonoporia, orange filefish, black pacu, and sturgeons, its always a small LFS, not the big chains...

Yep, and those issues get dealt with in those threads. No one here is in any way saying the actions of bad LFS are not bad. I really am confused by the 'other stores are bad too' argument. We all agree that other stores that treat their animals bad are bad, and I don't see why that should stop anyone from think petco is bad too.

[TheMandarinFish]

I would like to stop fish neglect and keep jobs at the same time. It sounds like you can't wait to put people out of work. Who really sounds more like Mr. Burns? It's not neglect - it's massacre.

I realize you are not Mr. Burns, and you may not patronize me. I am probably your age at least, more educated (or the same) and just as ethical.

There were others who questioned my information on WalMart, a company which also must be destroyed.

FWIW - I was watching the Simpsons on Tracy Ullman religiously, and have been tuned in for over 10 years of consecutive Sundays. :)

Yes, PetCo must be brought down. Getting rid of their SW fish is a step in the right direction, but since they won't even do that, they must be destroyed.

"But what about the circus workers who actually torture and imprison the animals?"

Well, screw 'em. Time for job retraining. If you want a career, you don't get a job at PetCo, huh?

[jtaquatic]

Being in the pet industry I am well aware of where exactlly fish come from and how they are caught. I do not wish to bash PetCo but unfortunatlly the people running the store have no control over where the fish are comming from (meaning the distributor.) If they were familiar with the distributor or cared enough, they would focus on humainlly caught fish or captive raised fish. Ask yourself next time, Why is this fish so cheap? Why was it 2 times as much at the pet store? Probably because its captive raised, or and its been cared for properlly. I advise all of you reefers to ask, where did this fish/coral come from? LOOK for captive raised fish, and support that store. I have been into so many wholesalers based on what Ive seen it takes about 4000 cute little yellow tangs to just get to the wholesaler alone. From there, to the pet store, to your house, just imagine how many fish had to die for that one that was taken home. Its really sad to see the way fish are treated now, so please keep in mind "Where did this fish come from?"

[crzy4reefs]

i know for a fact since i worked there that we get fish from ora and segrest farms

[Ravenlegs]

Hello Matt I am from ND our petco here we do alot of business with them for only dry goods for the most part.

I have bought fish from the them before but you know what comes to my mind right off is that there fish there within two days come down with ich. What that information tells me is STRESS is #1. #2 also theres is open multi tank system
at least in the Fargo ND store.

A friend of mine in a local fish club who is a reefer like myself helped them start a reef tank which did very well until he got very busy and ended up moving the tank over grew with algae choked off many of coral and eventually crashed do you know I offered to buy some of the corals which where clearly hurting I have done that at another LFS bought distressed corals and brought them back I have stocked my tank doing this. However Petco they wanted full price clearly when these animals were dying.

I dont know really what you can do but follow your heart I think its a losing battle but perhaps someday what you learn there might change the nature of the business. At our fish club last saturday we had a speaker from a wholesaler of Marine fish and corals he told us with almost no conviction that the reefs are not being wrecked by collection go figure.

Good Luck.

R

[Adonis Mt]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer


Jobs are jobs, and loosing jobs is never a good thing-unless you've been watching "Fight Club" a few times too many.

best line in the thread, lol

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
It's not neglect - it's massacre. I feel that you diminish the word massacre when you use it out of context, but obviously we disagree on that point. Perhapse the reality is not dramatic enough to suit you. There are some good sites like merriamwebster.com that you can go to if you need help with vocabulary.

To the best of my knowledge, Petco does not have a company policy that requires their fish be killed, nor is the killing of fish in their store in their best interest. Fish become diseased and/or die at Petco because of a lack of the care required to keep them healthy. That is neglect.

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
I realize you are not Mr. Burns, and you may not patronize me. I am probably your age at least, more educated (or the same) and just as ethical. If you do not wish to be patronized, perhapse you should review your posts before you submit them. You have been responded to with no less maturity and respect than you have offered others. Also, don't you believe your ethics should be extended to your fellow humans, as well?

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
There were others who questioned my information on WalMart, a company which also must be destroyed.

Yes, PetCo must be brought down. Getting rid of their SW fish is a step in the right direction, but since they won't even do that, they must be destroyed.

Well, screw 'em. Time for job retraining. If you want a career, you don't get a job at PetCo, huh? I still don't understand why you believe these two companies must be "brought down" or destroyed. Why would you not be satisfied if they stopped doing the things you find immoral or unethical?

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
FWIW - I was watching the Simpsons on Tracy Ullman religiously, and have been tuned in for over 10 years of consecutive Sundays. :) Yup, FWIW

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
"But what about the circus workers who actually torture and imprison the animals?" I thought staying on topic was important to you:
Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
But that's not the point is it? This thread is about PetCo.
I didn't realize Petco, the Circus, and Walmart were part of the same company.

[bmb527]

If you go to Petco or WalMart on a Saturday, it truly is a CIRCUS!!! LOL!

[TheMandarinFish]

I feel that you diminish the word massacre when you use it out of context, but obviously we disagree on that point. Perhapse the reality is not dramatic enough to suit you. There are some good sites like merriamwebster.com that you can go to if you need help with vocabulary.

Sorry to hurt your feelings. I know you're sensitive.

One of my honors degrees is in English, so I don't need vocabulary help. Thanks though, and try again.

From www.dictionary.com:
5 entries found for massacre.
mas·sa·cre Audio pronunciation of massacre ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ms-kr) n.
1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2. The slaughter of a large number of animals.

To the best of my knowledge, Petco does not have a company policy that requires their fish be killed, nor is the killing of fish in their store in their best interest. Fish become diseased and/or die at Petco because of a lack of the care required to keep them healthy. That is neglect.

If it's in thier best interest, in the animals' best interest, and the hobby's best interest, they are working really hard to rain on everyone's parade, huh?

On a large scale it's a massacre. See the dictionary. Therefore, their store policy is to massacre animals, as they are obviously well aware of their practices.

You yourself have informed them, which I commend and applaud. I respect you for doing this, and they cannot claim ignorance as concerned, ethical hobbyists like yourself have brought it to their attention in well-constructed, reasoned arguments.

By choosing to ignore this, they practice the massacre of animals.

If you do not wish to be patronized, perhapse you should review your posts before you submit them. You have been responded to with no less maturity and respect than you have offered others. Also, don't you believe your ethics should be extended to your fellow humans, as well?

I do. I'm not insulting you nor anyone else. I do not claim to be "older and wiser" than those who do not share my perspective.

I still don't understand why you believe these two companies must be "brought down" or destroyed. Why would you not be satisfied if they stopped doing the things you find immoral or unethical?

I would appreciate them doing those things. I would not be satisfied because they had deliberately committed heinous acts.

Offtopic example: Texaco execs made terrible, racist, derogatory remarks about their very own African American employees. I won't give them my business. I don't know if they've been recorded again speaking that way. Either way, they'll never get another dime from me.

I didn't realize Petco, the Circus, and Walmart were part of the same company.

No, they are all businesses which deliberately cause suffering for income. They are part of the same problem. I equate PetCo to the others.

[bmb527]

Mandarin Fish,
If Petco, WalMart, etc. all cause suffering for their income, I would like to know where you shop for the items that, say, WalMart sells, i.e.: detergent, socks, toys for your kids,(if you have any), etc.. Let's see an employer the size of WalMart go out of business, what do you think that would do to our economy? What do you do for a living that gives you the right to condemn other businesses? If Petco were to go under, it would put a bunch of people out looking for work in many fields, IT, Management (at all levels), moms who need that job to feed their kids, the list is long.

Lefty,
You stated that there are silly jobs, such as a person who cuts down an unwanted tree for your grandfather. If your grandfather wanted the tree gone and either couldn't do it himself, or, didn't want to do it himself, there was someone to fill that niche. Thats not silly, thats supply and demand.

Someone posted about they (Petco I assume) should pay better, but that would cause higher prices. I know many of the people who work in the LFS that I use around Denver, they all make about the same as what Petco pays, ($8-9/hr). The smaller stores just have an owner or manager that teaches proper practices. Petco doesn't.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
Sorry to hurt your feelings. I know you're sensitive.TheMandarinFish,

I don't understand your basis for this comment. I suspect it is inflamatory. In one of your previous posts you appeared offended because you felt I had patronized you, and you made a statement about your age. If you do not wish to be regarded as a child, perhapse you should not present yourself as a child by quoteing phish in your sig, listing video games and herb as your hobbies, and ommiting an occupation. You may be out of high school, but your description of yourself, combined with your single-minded views, have not helped you present yourself as a mature adult. Based on your education, you should be aware of this.

It appears that you are trying very hard to make the world black and white. You strive to make those you disagree with appear as corrupt as possible, as though you are seeking comfort in a good vs evil battle. Perhapse you should stick to video games if you want to fight bad guys.

I find it hard to follow much of your logic. For example, you claimed that one reason Wal-Mart is bad is because of low wages, and believe that the solution to low wages is unemployment. Do you stand behid this reasoning?

Also, I'm still waiting to hear what brand of acrylic you buy locally, and a reply to many of the other questions I have asked. Please follow through if you would like a discussion, otherwise I don't see any need in having a one-sided conversation with someone who does not want to validate their own remarks.

[TheMandarinFish]

Mike - whatever. Not sure if I can say this part is in violation of the UA...But it certainly violates good taste and sensitivity. - wizardgus You started patronizing with the "listen to me, for I am an old, mature, wise man" talk, as if being an engineer made your opinion more valid. It doesn't make me any more important than you to be older and more educated (which happens to be the case on both counts, but it doesn't make my opinion better).

I'm sure you listen to music that is advanced beyond the musicianship and understanding of Trey Anastasio, as evidenced by your love of pushups.

Your logic is, in fact, flawed. Slavery kept people working. So did sharecropping.

Regardless, your patronizing and insults make you a "mature adult." Thanks for all the wisdom, dad. I don't answer to you, and you aren't my judge.

You repeatedly ignore or insult attempts to find agreement, responding to olive branches with insults and patronizing.

You're an engineer who likes to argue on the internet. I'm sure you're a real hit with the ladies too.

Make sure you attack me in reply. I won't trade insults with you any more. Have the last word if it makes you feel special, though.

You never answered when I refuted your arguments. I leave you to your arguing, wishing you better than I wish PetCo and WalMart.

I applaud your letters to PetCo and your decision to make aragrocrete.

ALL JOBS ARE GOOD JOBS. Just keep telling yourself this, and all will be well. Slavery is good for the economy, and that's all that matters.

[Thales]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bmb527


Lefty,
You stated that there are silly jobs, such as a person who cuts down an unwanted tree for your grandfather. If your grandfather wanted the tree gone and either couldn't do it himself, or, didn't want to do it himself, there was someone to fill that niche. Thats not silly, thats supply and demand.


But, as I said in that same post, thats not what happened. It was a wanted tree, the tree cutter needed a job. No one really wanted the job done, but it was more important to let this guy do what his job was. Thats just silly. So is paying people to log where there are no more trees, paying people to make toxic chemicals in the plant next to the school, and paying people to sell sw animals at petco.
If jobs were the issue, and a job is a job so we better let people do it, prostitution and pimping would be legal, as would selling and growing dope.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
See my edit-wizardgus Why are you posting statements like this on an open internet forum?

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish

Slavery is good for the economy, and that's all that matters. You said it, not me.

[wizardgus®]

I don't have time to read all this right now. How about everybody just back away from the keyboard for a bit and take a few deep breaths?

[crzy4reefs]

i think we all need to stop and relax a bit......this is really getting out of hand

[Thales]

I don't think all of us need to stop, as all of us are not getting out of hand.

[Shoestring Reefer]

skydiver585,

Have you triet to get a job at Petco yet?

When you do, I think it would be cool if you started a thread with your experience there.

[Ravenlegs]

Can you feel the love!


Omg out of hand does not do this dribble justice and nope I dont have a english degree or honors or whatever.


But I do respect a young persons honesty and applaud is developing ethics so it seems.


I will still buy dry goods at petco do I like some of there methods there training? NOPE.


Time to take a breath for me I love talking on the hobby. Good luck Matt.

R

[staticfishmonger]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
The piles of oil-soaked bald eagle, cormorant, and otter corpses were taller than you.

some men are taller than others...

[skydiver585]

Shoestring Reefer, if i get the job, i will make anew post.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Thanks and good luck, whatever you do.

[Jimmy719]

Wow. I need a new hobby- I can't believe I just read that. Threads like this are becoming all too common on RC. That's not a crack at the moderators or creators, but the volatile people using RC. For future reference, when you get p---ed off at someone here, just send them a PM. It clears up threads so that hobbyists interested in real info don't have to sort through it. People bash those who "don't use the search button," but it many cases, its pretty useless. Heck, I found this thread doing a search for Kole Tang info.

Anyways, there was some good discussion here, and I commend those who were engaged in it. By the way, I laughed out loud at one post- Guam is a US territory, and I doubt you'd find many sweatshops there. In the end, I think I'll choose not to shop at chain pet stores, and avoid the whole debate.

Peace

Jimmy

[TheMandarinFish]

http://starbulletin.com/2001/03/31/editorial/editorials.html

Saipan and American Samoa.

120 miles from Guam.

What was I thinking?

:bum:

Thanks for avoiding box petstores with livestock Jimmy. You done the right thing.

[Questin]

If I was to run things there, I would fish take out all Saltwater fish that are in the Wall units and put them in Display tanks on the floor in stand alone Aquairiums. Let the wall units hold only Freshwater fish.

Those wallunit tank systems are not all that bad, but they have never been setup good enought for saltwater tanks. Sure if you goto the big fish shows, they look sweet, but they are only setup for one week there.

Those units also come from usaquarium I think, and they have a system inplace where you can get a estabilshed bio wheel from them. Does Petco even bother to get this bio wheel? I don't think they do, and that is a major mistake.

[58reefpro]

not all petcos are horrible, though many of them are, i worked at the petco in richardson for three years running the saltwater department and my section was the number one petco saltwater section in the nation as of healthiest fish and sales. The only petco you will probably see that sells live rock and much more diversity of corals. all though i work for aquarium envirinments now not all petcos are bad...they are too corporate..management wil not let things get done that need to get done. the like to hire people that know abslutely nothing and put them in the fish section to mess things up...this is why i no longer work therethanks for your time

[58reefpro]

another thing in response to Questin, petco will not allow display tanks on the floor for some stupid reason...i tried and it got taken away.....i do nont advise getting a job at petco if i like fish because they wont let u do much.....u have to do a ton of water changes on those systems for them to run well

[meister_ben]

Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI, Wal-Mart is the single-largest employer in America, and Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people.


No, FYI, Walmart is the SECOND largest employer in America, our government is first. Crappy fish people? I work at Petco as the aquatics specialist, being only 21 I don't have the experience that some of you may have. But experience isn't everything. I had a saltwater tank when I was 10 years old that my old man help me set up. I now run the aquatics department and aqua culture my own corals to trade with my customers. I agree to some extent with the 'money-grubbing' part, but overall I'm very satisfied with my job and how I do it. Don't be so narrow-minded. So you don't like Petco, DON'T SHOP THERE! If you don't like the way things are run, say something or do something, don't just sit there and type how you "don't like this or that." Whining will only get you so far. Step up to the plate. Tell us we're doing something wrong. But if you're just going to sit and preach, save it Reverand, I've heard this sermon before.

[meister_ben]

Lefty, you said :If jobs were the issue, and a job is a job so we better let people do it, prostitution and pimping would be legal, as would selling and growing dope.

What a wonderful world this would be!

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by meister_ben
Originally posted by TheMandarinFish
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI, Wal-Mart is the single-largest employer in America, and Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people.
You've got PM, meister_ben

To set the record straight for everyone who is subscribed to this thread, that was origionally posted by me, not TheMandarinFish.

Ok, so the government is a bigger employer than Wal-Mart. You got me, so good for you. :thumbsup:

If you disagree with the rest of my post (meaning you DONT believe "Petco employes more than just crappy fish department people") then feel free to PM me. This thread has been dead for nearly two weeks, and I don't see the need to restart this off-topic discussion in public.

[chipmunk]

The Petco 30 seconds from my house used to be pretty good. A fellow reefer worked there and he knew his stuff. It was my favorite place to get ORA bred fish, you can't beat the prices and if you get there within a few days of a shipment you had a lot to choose from, so you could cherry pick your fish. In fact, I'd see our local tank service guys there buying fish (purple tangs etc.) at great prices. I think the reefer dude started his own store though.


BTW, this weeks special is Harlequin Tusk for $44! I'd get one, but I don't have a FO tank. But heck, at that price, I should just get the Harlequin Tusk and throw him into my nano tank. j/k

[pepeinthenavy]

I would not get a job there you have to take into consideration that there are many petco's in the country and even in fiji (if that is where you are from) that are very ignorant in caring for fish as well as other animals. I agree with the protest. PROTEST PETCO!!!!!

[jwm2k3]

There is a PetCo less than one minute form my house. I drive 40 minutes to buy anything, salt, fish, feeders, etc... The store I drive to is more into the animals than the cash it seems....

[tdtiger]

Help Petco? .......... NEVER


discourage them from continueing their sales in marine fishes. Dont encourage them. If in the short run they see it as a failure then they will cease to continue. If there's hope with sales then they will keep on going, prolonging their money driven sales.

[Shoestring Reefer]

So far I've only got one fish, a cardinal. This afternoon my wife called me up at work and said, "Get more fish!" Sounds good to me! I've been keeping my eyes open for a couple of good little clownfish to add. Basically I want a couple of nice percs/Nemos; Dark orange, captive-bred, with complete white stripes. I figure they will probably host in my zenia, and finally I would basically have what got me into the hobby in the first place, after 3 years of research. I'd like to try my hand at breeding when they mature, so I'd really like to start with a good looking pair.

I swung by my LFS during lunch, and their only clowns are yellow, with half-formed stripes. I know, the screwed up stripes of captive-bred fish are supposed to add to their "charm" and "enhanse their beauty" or whatever the on-line places say, but it's just not what I'm looking for, so I've been waiting for a few months now for a good looking pair to come along.

I said "what the heck" and swung by Petco. Their fish were gorgeous. :inlove: Exactly what I'm looking for. It ticks me off that my LFS has to deal with a crappy vendor and get crappy-looking clowns. :mad:

I guess this weekend I'll swing up to my NSLFS (not-so-local fish store) to see if they still have some good-looking clowns. They had some nice-looking ORAs a couple of weeks ago, when I was too broke to get them.

[chipmunk]

Just remember that ORA is doing good by breeding marine fish, offering new species as they discovery how to succesfully breed them.

Petco is their biggest customer. Petco helps keep ORA alive.

[Shoestring Reefer]

So what do all the Petco haters think? Is it better to buy wild-caught at a LFS, or ORA from Petco?

I'm pretty sure I can buy the ORAs at my NSLFS, anyway, so it shouldn't affect my stocking, but what about people that don't have that option?

[chipmunk]

People who don't have an option should buy tank-raised from Petco or tank-raised via mail order.

Unless you are attempting to breed a never-before-bred-species of clown, I can't think of a good reason to buy a wild caught clown.

[Flipturn88]

The problem I see with Petco's ORA clowns (or atleast the Petco that is close to me) is that ALL of their fish have diseases of some form--not something I want to risk. Whether their fish are ORA or wild-caught, they all end up being exposed to disease in some way or another.

[vitz]

i think the fact that most of petco's clowns being t/r is a good thing, and far less environmentally damaging than having them sell more wild caught

maybe the more t/r,aquacultured stuff petco sells, the better

i don't hear anyone crying about all the mass produced/farmed guppies all the lfs's on the planet sell, why should there be such a hoot about t/r clowns?

;)

[randythereefer]

Here's my perspective. Its all about money. Just be aware of that. If you can either sell more fish or lower the mortality of the ones at the store then you're doing a good thing for the profitability of that particular store. Any manager would consider that a good thing. They're there to monitor the bottom line. Each action has a consequence. Spending 3 or 4 extra man hours on one 3 dollar fish may not be an efficient use of resources. This is how a business has to evaluate things. Its a very competative market. Business isn't evil, they're just there to provide a good or service, to make a profit, and do so competativly. Unfortunatly fish are an animal not a box of kleenex so emotions come into play. From the sounds of things you'll do great. A good manager doesn't have the knowledge but relies on people around him/her self to have the knowledge.

[crrichey]

I personally think that petco is a horrible store. IMO, all reefers should boycot petco, and let other people know what they are doing to the poor fish, or any other animal for that matter. The only thing they seem to do right is their dog and cat adoptions. If people were to stop buying their fish, they would probably have to eather change their husbandry habits, or stop selling them all together.

[wds21921]

I disagree with a lot of the people who say not to get involved Matt.

The bottom line is Petco is going to sell SW fish because they're high profit, bottomline.
If every person in here refused to purchase SW fish from Petco how much of a dent do you actually think you'll make?

If you do nothing then your not helping to bring any sense of a good reputation to the hobby, much less ownership for responsibility. You don't have to be the savoir of the world but at least care enough to try and make a difference.

I did the same thing for a LFS which had started out as a great SW retailer in the early 80's. They (like many others) had decided to convert most of the sales to reptiles and rodents, many years later. This left the SW business in decline and basically shambles. The tanks looked horrible and the fish and inverts were apparently expendable.

I worked part time 5 days a week there, including my regular job, and even went in on weekends and worked for free to make sure the fish and inverts were getting fed properly. Most all of the customers, new and old, came to rely on me and knew that whatever I told them was factual and not something I made up to complete a sale. In fact I turned away many sales that I knew would wind up being disastrous for them. Sadly, we had a local pet chain open up nearby as well as a Petco. This forced the business to close much like WalMart does to there competition. Even with that though I continued to get phone calls from ex customers for help.

Was I saving the hobby and some lives? Not completely but at least I cared enough to try and make a difference and show people that I was willing to work towards something I believed in. i.e. I put my money where my mouth was.

It comes down to this. If you don't do anything when you can, then your enabling things to continue and possible grow worse. If you do at least try to change something then you'll inherently and indirectly show some people that it's not just about money and cool looking fish.

The best thing is your getting a chance to get paid for something you enjoy doing. I think your doing the right thing for the right reason Matt. Just be careful not to try to carry the world on your shoulders though ok?

It's my opinion that if people feel as strongly as they do about the hobby, then it's irresponsible to just ignore status quo and accept it. Maybe we can't change every bad LFS out there but are we helping ourselves by just ignoring it?

Even if they don't get our money you can bet, at least for a while, they're going to get someones.

[vitz]

while salt water fish may be high priced, they are most definitely NOT high profit ;)

any tropical fish retailer knows this-the main money is made from the drygoods peripherals, NOT the livestock

petco is not selling fish because they make a profit on fish ;)

[DgenR8]

I would venture a guess that Petco is very close to losing money on fish. They lose many of them before they can sell them, so I'd agree with Vitz, there isn't a huge profit involved in livestock, especially in a place with such poor husbandry practices.
I'd also like to point out that Reef Central boasts a member base near 60,000. If everyone here were to stop buying livestock AND drygoods from Petco, I do believe that would make a significant dent in their bottom line.

[chipmunk]

We got at least one LFS here that is much worse than any Petco I've ever seen.

Don't bother asking for a name because I won't provide one.

Whatever horrors you may have seen at a Petco won't even begin to approach the level this LFS is capable of.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
The bottom line is Petco is going to sell SW fish because they're high profit, bottomline.
Actually, the opposite is true.

If every person in here refused to purchase SW fish from Petco how much of a dent do you actually think you'll make?/quote]

Large if the boycott included food. Besides, the point really isn't how much 'evil' we get them not to do, it is how much 'evil' you as an individual are not supporting.

[quote]If you do nothing then your not helping to bring any sense of a good reputation to the hobby, much less ownership for responsibility.

I disagree. If you support Petco you are damaging any good reputation the hobby has.

You don't have to be the savoir of the world but at least care enough to try and make a difference.

As has been pointed out by many in this thread, Petco's top down management makes is almost impossible to make a difference.

I did the same thing for a LFS which had started out as a great SW retailer in the early 80's. They (like many others) had decided to convert most of the sales to reptiles and rodents, many years later. This left the SW business in decline and basically shambles. The tanks looked horrible and the fish and inverts were apparently expendable.

I worked part time 5 days a week there, including my regular job, and even went in on weekends and worked for free to make sure the fish and inverts were getting fed properly. Most all of the customers, new and old, came to rely on me and knew that whatever I told them was factual and not something I made up to complete a sale. In fact I turned away many sales that I knew would wind up being disastrous for them. Sadly, we had a local pet chain open up nearby as well as a Petco. This forced the business to close much like WalMart does to there competition. Even with that though I continued to get phone calls from ex customers for help.

That great, 'cept for the closing part, but as has been pointed out several times in this thread, working for a LFS is different than working for a chain.

Was I saving the hobby and some lives? Not completely but at least I cared enough to try and make a difference and show people that I was willing to work towards something I believed in. i.e. I put my money where my mouth was.

And you can do that at a LFS, but not at a Petco.

It comes down to this. If you don't do anything when you can, then your enabling things to continue and possible grow worse. If you do at least try to change something then you'll inherently and indirectly show some people that it's not just about money and cool looking fish.

In regards to Petco I disagree completely. Working at petco means you are a cog in their grinder, not an agent of change. If the motivation for working at Petco is care of animals, your time would be better spent sitting outside the store with a sign detailing the poor husbandry condition within the store. In this thread there are many stories of people who tried working at Petco to make a difference - they didn't/couldn't.

The best thing is your getting a chance to get paid for something you enjoy doing.
But in the case of petco what is he getting paid for is helping continue the substandard husbandry they practice and supporting every other petco with its deplorable conditions.

I think your doing the right thing for the right reason Matt. Just be careful not to try to carry the world on your shoulders though ok?

It has been shown time and again that working from within at Petco accomplishes nothing. I appreciate the sentiment, but the reality is Petco won't change.

It's my opinion that if people feel as strongly as they do about the hobby, then it's irresponsible to just ignore status quo and accept it. Maybe we can't change every bad LFS out there but are we helping ourselves by just ignoring it?

Nobody has suggested anyone ignore it. The thrust of this thread is that if the animals health are the reason for action, working at petco doesn't help.

Even if they don't get our money you can bet, at least for a while, they're going to get someones.

Just because someone else is going to give them money is no reason to give them ours.

[wds21921]

I still disagree and I won't pick you apart quote by quote but the truth is Petco IS such a large chain that your boycott is going to be minimal.

If it weren't somehow profitable to sell SW fish and inverts i.e. tanks and supplies, they wouldn't do it. While the fish themselves may be questionable in there profit margin what they in turn sell clearly is not. SO you don't spend YOUR money there.

Your then leaving the same staff they already have (limited knowledge part timers) left to rob the public and instill bad habits and or bad advice.

Because of the volume and various type of animals and supplies they deal with, any losses can be spread out in other areas, which they will do. That's how corporations operate.

Yes they are a large corporation and for them money is the bottomline. The "do nothing" attitude helps no one though. Boycotting them will at best, take years to even have a slight impact. In the meantime, they keep importing fish only to basically kill them. How is this good for anyone?

If by working there Matt can even reach a few people it will have lasting effects.

Unless your willing to start a publicized boycott your enabling them to continue what they're already doing.

The point is Matt is not going there so much to help out Petco as much as he is going there to "properly" inform potential future hobbyists. Petco is going to continue what they're already doing whether you personally decide to boycott them or not. Whether Matt works there or not as well.

The advantage he has at Petco is he will be able to reach a higher traffic flow of people than say a LFS for newer hobbyists. I am a firm believer that if your not going to be a part of the solution then your enabling the problem.

You can pick this apart quote by quote again if you like but the bottom line is your boycott will have minimal effects unless your willing to start an all out PR campaign. The best thing to do is try to get on the inside and fix what's already broken.

If Petco were a LFS it would be easy to boycott them and have a bigger impact but they aren't. We as hobbysists and consumers bear the bulk of the responsibility because we've fed the market. Without us there would be no market. And now that Petco is so big and far reaching into the overall pet hobby, one segment is not going to put them out of business or deter them from not catering to the SW hobby because it IS in fact profitable.

They have new customers coming in everyday uninformed looking to put a tank in Susie's bedroom with Nemo in it. How many Nemo's do you think mom and dad will buy before they give up? Probably at least 2-3, that's a fair guess. Multiply 2-3 times a very low number of 10 kits they might sell in a month. You've now already got what a LFS might sell in two months. These are very conservative numbers. On top of that add in the bad LFS which is no better than Petco. We've all been to them and like Petco they do exist.

So do we do nothing and just decide to personally boycott them or have our local group boycott them? Again, this will take years to materialize into any losses for Petco. You're still letting them operate as they normally do with almost no impact.

By your post your clearly not going to agree with me which is fine I'm not here to be a preacher and convert you, but doing nothing isn't helping the situation. We've already got plenty of bad LFS representing us because yes, we are responsible, like it or not. We do bear some of the responsibility for the market.

[wds21921]

While the title of the thread is "Help Petco" that's not what this is about actually, it's about properly informing the potential hobbyist down the road and making a difference.

Nothing good comes easy.

[bmb527]

wds21921,
I agree with your view on PETCO. They as a company only care about the bottom line. If some of the employees actually know something about the hobby, and pass it on to a potential customer, they are doing the hobby a favor. Petco needs more employees who are knowledgeable and will share what they know with customers, who in turn will properly care for their pets, (whatever kind they are).
As for the profitability of fish, most stores that I have sold fish to in the past have a 100% markup on fresh and as much as 300% on saltwater livestock. With this markup, if they get a few batches where they have little to no dieoff, they make huge profit, but as everyone knows, it usually does not work that way and they all have some fish die in shipping, in store or during the waranty period. This all cuts into profit. The real money in the pet trade is in the supplies. A 29 gal. tank runs about $15.00 for the store and sells for about $40.00, the warranty goes thru the manufacturer, so the store only makes money on it. Food, chemicals and other supplies are the same.
People can boycott Petco, but even 60,000 people will not do much damage to them. They are MAJOR sponsors of the dog shows, and sell a wide variety of food in the dog and cat markets, that IS where their money is. Take that 60K people and multiply it by 100 and you are getting close to what it would take to affect them. The aquatics dept. is a break even area for them and won't hurt them either way.

[DgenR8]

Lots of people with fish tanks also have dogs, cats, birds, etc.

[wds21921]

Excellent quote!!!!

[wds21921]

I agree BMB if we take a passive approach then we're doing nothing to change the way business is done. And we are in fact helping them to do so.
If in fact the bulk of there money is made in the dog market (which makes sense) then what they do in food alone can keep them afloat for a very long time.

I've yet to have ever seen a problem that was fixed by complacency.

[skippy2]

If Matt does work at Petco and does try to inform his customers about this hobby, he will probably be fired. i.e. if he is overheard by management that the fish the customer wants to buy is not right for his size tank or will not make a compatible tankmate for what is already in that tank he will be fired for not making a sale. Forgive me if this has already been stated.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
[B]I still disagree and I won't pick you apart quote by quote but the truth is Petco IS such a large chain that your boycott is going to be minimal.

I have a boycott?

Your then leaving the same staff they already have (limited knowledge part timers) left to rob the public and instill bad habits and or bad advice.

Have you actually read this whole thread?

Yes they are a large corporation and for them money is the bottomline. The "do nothing" attitude helps no one though. Boycotting them will at best, take years to even have a slight impact. In the meantime, they keep importing fish only to basically kill them. How is this good for anyone?

This has all been addressed earlier in this thread.

If by working there Matt can even reach a few people it will have lasting effects.

Yep, he will be helping Petco grow.

Unless your willing to start a publicized boycott your enabling them to continue what they're already doing.

There are many other ways to fight Petco. I believe they were discussed earlier in this thread.

The point is Matt is not going there so much to help out Petco as much as he is going there to "properly" inform potential future hobbyists. Petco is going to continue what they're already doing whether you personally decide to boycott them or not. Whether Matt works there or not as well.

He could do the same by sitting outside with a sign.

The advantage he has at Petco is he will be able to reach a higher traffic flow of people than say a LFS for newer hobbyists. I am a firm believer that if your not going to be a part of the solution then your enabling the problem.

And being part of the problem is being part of the problem.

You can pick this apart quote by quote again if you like but the bottom line is your boycott will have minimal effects unless your willing to start an all out PR campaign. The best thing to do is try to get on the inside and fix what's already broken.

Again, I have a boycott? I wasn't aware of it.
Many have tried to get inside and fix it, it doesn't work. There are at least two examples in this thread.
And I don't think I will fully comment on your post because you seem to be ignoring what I wrote before.


So do we do nothing and just decide to personally boycott them or have our local group boycott them? Again, this will take years to materialize into any losses for Petco. You're still letting them operate as they normally do with almost no impact.

So I should get a job there and try to change it from the inside? I think you need to go back and read the entire thread.

By your post your clearly not going to agree with me which is fine I'm not here to be a preacher and convert you, but doing nothing isn't helping the situation.

You keep inferring that I advocate doing nothing, but I am at a loss as to where you get that idea from because I never said anything remotely like that.

We've already got plenty of bad LFS representing us because yes, we are responsible, like it or not. We do bear some of the responsibility for the market.

You are making all kinds of incorrect assumptions about me and my position.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by wds21921
You can pick this apart quote by quote again if you like These Petco threads... I've got a few comments, but I hope you don't see them as an attack, just thoughts/comments. :)

Originally posted by wds21921
Because of the volume and various type of animals and supplies they deal with, any losses can be spread out in other areas, which they will do. That's how corporations operate.

the bottom line is your boycott will have minimal effects unless your willing to start an all out PR campaign.

If Petco were a LFS it would be easy to boycott them and have a bigger impact but they aren't. We as hobbysists and consumers bear the bulk of the responsibility because we've fed the market. Without us there would be no market. And now that Petco is so big and far reaching into the overall pet hobby, one segment is not going to put them out of business or deter them from not catering to the SW hobby because it IS in fact profitable. Financially hurting Petco as a corporation isn't really necessary to enact change. Financially hurting fish department sales would be all that would be needed. Ford makes a boat load of money on truck sales, but they still stopped selling the Ford Escort when sales dropped low enough. The fact that dog food sales are awesome doesn't mean that Petco will keep the same old fish department if it's not profitable.

Spreading losses is NOT how corporations survive. Keeping competative or cutting dead weight is, and I'm sure Petco is smart enough to know that.

Originally posted by wds21921
the bottom line is your boycott will have minimal effects unless your willing to start an all out PR campaign

The "do nothing" attitude helps no one though.

Unless your willing to start a publicized boycott your enabling them to continue what they're already doing. I agree 100% that publicity is needed to get the greatest and fastest change. I do not agree that boycotting is a "do nothing" solution.

To many people (including myself) the hundreds of dollars (yes, that much) we could save by shopping at Petco, as well as the livestock that is sometimes available at Petco but not a LFS, means that we end up waiting months to get what we want. I've been waiting for a long time for a good pair of ORA clowns, and Petco has them, but I'll be waiting until either this thursday or the next for my LFS to get them again. I'll be picking up three peppermint shrimp, too. Petco, $15 per clown + $6/shrimp = $48. At the LFS, $28/clown + $15/shrimp = $101. That means that, more than likely, I'll have this decision: (a) By everything at the LFS and pay a bill late; (b) Buy at Petco (c) Get the clowns now and the shrimp when I can afford them. I suspect I'll pick (c), and to me that's not just a "do nothing" attitude.

Originally posted by wds21921
Boycotting them will at best, take years to even have a slight impact. In the meantime, they keep importing fish only to basically kill them. How is this good for anyone?

So do we do nothing and just decide to personally boycott them or have our local group boycott them? Again, this will take years to materialize into any losses for Petco. You're still letting them operate as they normally do with almost no impact. I disagree. I have trouble believing that if they saw decreased or loss of fish department (or just salt water) sales for a year, there would be no change. Maby they would improve practices, or maby they would just scale back. Either way, less livestock would be killed. That may not be good enough for some people, but it is still progress in my opinion.

Originally posted by wds21921
The "do nothing" attitude helps no one though.Passive resistance with a voice has changed nations, so whay not Petco. It sounds like we have the passive resistance in place, and that's half the battle, so why flame? Step up to the mike and be the voice, or sit down next to us. Or, decide that your drop in the bucket doesn't matter as much as the cash in your wallet, and go to Petco.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

when we do go into petco all i evr do is rob there customers any how !

[Shoestring Reefer]

You mean steal their customers?

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

correct since i have a pet shop licence 4 my home i just tell them u r paying 2 much !

[Flipturn88]

huh?

[wds21921]

How am I flaming if we're merely having a discussion? I'm the one who chose not to pick your comments apart sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph.
So much for the intelligent discussion part of this.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
[B]How am I flaming if we're merely having a discussion?

Because you aren't engaging in discussion - just telling people how they are wrong and belittling their thoughts.

I'm the one who chose not to pick your comments apart sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph.

Going through item by item is hardly a flame. It is a good way to actually respond to what people actually said instead of what you think they said.

So much for the intelligent discussion part of this.

I find it interesting that that sentence is so often used by people who are not actually engaging in discussion.

[bmb527]

Lefty,
So what you are saying is that a person who needs a job, has an interest and some knowledge about fish, and COULD share that knowledge with people who would otherwise receive bad advice should NOT work at Petco because they are a terrible, corporate, money hungry machine who willfully look forward to killing animals and giving faulty advice to customers so, they, in turn, kill their pets.
I don't buy your philosophy in any way, shape or form. If the kid wishes to work at Petco and give people the proper advice, GREAT! If people who are going to buy at Petco anyway, get sound advice and end up with a successful aquarium, then I would say that that employee of a "bad" company did the hobby a favor in starting someone off on the right foot.

DgenR8,
I know that people with fish tanks often have other pets. Do YOU travel to a dog store and a cat store and then a bird store just to pay more and waste gas for the EXACT same items you could have purchased at Petco or Petsmart? If your answer is yes then that is your choice, (in my opinion an irresponsible one). The fact is millions of people own pets of every type and most pet stores are "specialty" stores dealing in fish or dogs or whatever, there are not many "mom&pop pet stores around anymore. This leaves 2 options, 1) drive all over town to a bunch of different stores, or, 2) make one stop at a store like Petco. The people who choose the first option would also probably cut off their nose to spite their face. With the price of fuel now, I do as much "one stop shopping" as possible.

It seems that on this forum, the people with the most posts supposedly are the most knowledgeable. As for life in general, I have found this to be false. People with the most "comments" either like to hear themselves talk or like to have everyone think that they are the be all, end all authority on one or more subjects.

[wds21921]

Ok Lefty clearly has a problem with anyone who doesn't prescribe to his ideas so instead of offering some solutions and ideas I'll politely remove myself from this thread instead of engaging in a discussion which he has since deemed belittling of everyone else in here and in essence offering nothign but telling you your all wrong. My sincerest apology for thinking outside the box.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

sorry to see u go !

[Thales]

Originally posted by bmb527
[B]Lefty,
So what you are saying is that a person who needs a job, has an interest and some knowledge about fish, and COULD share that knowledge with people who would otherwise receive bad advice should NOT work at Petco because

Good up to there.

they are a terrible, corporate, money hungry machine who willfully look forward to killing animals and giving faulty advice to customers so, they, in turn, kill their pets.

Nope.


I don't buy your philosophy in any way, shape or form.

I can understand that, since you are polarizing me into positions I don't hold.

If the kid wishes to work at Petco and give people the proper advice, GREAT!

If the kid thinks helping out those few people balances the massive poor husbandry that Petco practices, and the death it causes, then sure.

If the point is to work there because the kid loves the animals then the kid is doing a fools job. By working there the kid perpetuates the chain and its poor husbandry.


If people who are going to buy at Petco anyway, get sound advice and end up with a successful aquarium, then I would say that that employee of a "bad" company did the hobby a favor in starting someone off on the right foot.

And enabled a huge abuser of the animals the kid cares so much about to continue abusing animals.


It seems that on this forum, the people with the most posts supposedly are the most knowledgeable.

That is a crazy assumption.

People with the most "comments" either like to hear themselves talk or like to have everyone think that they are the be all, end all authority on one or more subjects.

I would hate to share your polarized world view. The world, and the reasons why people post are widely varied than you seem interested in considering.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
[B]Ok Lefty clearly has a problem with anyone who doesn't prescribe to his ideas so

Gimmie a break. You haven't responded to any of my points and questions, instead you simply regurgitate what you already have written.

instead of offering some solutions

Thats too bad, that would have been interesting.

and ideas I'll politely remove myself from this thread

Your entire post (and I think most of your posts in this thread) was hardly 'polite'.

instead of engaging in a discussion which he has since deemed belittling of everyone else in here and in essence offering nothign but telling you your all wrong.

That sentence doesn't really make sense.
I have not deemed this discussion or 'everyone else in here' to be belittling. You asked why your posts seemed like flames and I answered. If you don't want answers, you shouldn't ask questions.
I haven't been telling everyone they are all wrong. I haven't even been telling you you are wrong, and I fail to see why you must vilify me just because I hold and express an opinion contrary to yours.

My sincerest apology for thinking outside the box.

Is that supposed to be the polite part?
Did you read the entire thread?

[bmb527]

I am glad to see that you have a good grasp on how to post quotes. The thing that you and so many others don't seem to comprehend is that Petco is here to stay. Period. 60,000 members of RL will barely make a dent in their business. They sell more dog and cat food than they will ever sell fish product. That being said, if someone who works there can teach a customer the correct way of doing things then that is a start. Petco does do things wrong, I have never disagreed with that. All pet stores do, I have been involved with aquaria of every type for 30 years and have never seen a store that does EVERYTHING right. For example, how many stores have more than 1 tang in a small tank, or have a Mandarine in a bare tank. That is just a couple that I see often at most any store I go into, and NO it isn't just in Denver. I travel quite often for my job and have witnessed this kind of thing at most stores I go to, including stores in SFO, LAX, Chicago, Miami and many others.
Exactly what do you do to help others, away from RL I mean? I applaud the kid for wanting to help get accurate info to people. If he doesn't work there, some idiot that will sell a Koran Angel to someone with a 10 gal tank or worse, a 10 gal freshwater tank will take the job. This kid may decide not to work there thanks to the chastising and trashtalking on this thread. Who is perpetuating Petco's poor husbandry then? I would dare say that it would be you and the others who tried to steer him away. I'm sure you disagree with my way of seeing the issue. I don't care.

[Thales]

Originally posted by bmb527
[B]I am glad to see that you have a good grasp on how to post quotes.

What is that a negative?

The thing that you and so many others don't seem to comprehend is that Petco is here to stay. Period.

Can you show me any place where I said it wasn't?
The systematic poor husbandry is acceptable because the the place that is practicing the poor husbandry is here to stay?

60,000 members of RL will barely make a dent in their business. They sell more dog and cat food than they will ever sell fish product.

I don't believe anyone in this thread disagrees with you.

That being said, if someone who works there can teach a customer the correct way of doing things then that is a start.

For the one customer. Remember that Petco is a chain, so the one good store the kid works at supports the thousands of terrible stores.

Petco does do things wrong, I have never disagreed with that. All pet stores do, I have been involved with aquaria of every type for 30 years and have never seen a store that does EVERYTHING right. For example, how many stores have more than 1 tang in a small tank, or have a Mandarine in a bare tank. That is just a couple that I see often at most any store I go into, and NO it isn't just in Denver. I travel quite often for my job and have witnessed this kind of thing at most stores I go to, including stores in SFO, LAX, Chicago, Miami and many others.

I don't understand what this has got to do with Petco. Are you really making the argument that since some LFS do it too, we should get off Petco's back?

Exactly what do you do to help others, away from RL I mean?

Not that I see what this has to do with the current discussion:I am active in my local club. I am a moderator on the New Reefers forum on another board. I shop based on ethical treatment of the animals, not based on the cheapest price. I continually produce frags, that for the most part I give away. You?

I applaud the kid for wanting to help get accurate info to people. If he doesn't work there, some idiot that will sell a Koran Angel to someone with a 10 gal tank or worse, a 10 gal freshwater tank will take the job.

And he may make a small localized difference while he is there. What about when he quits and the store goes back to being a profitable hell hole based partially on what he did to bolster their reputation? What happens when he leaves? What about being part of all the other Petcos that don't give the right info? Does it not seem strange that many people who have tried to 'help' Petco have quit out of frustration, only to see the chain doing more business than ever?

This kid may decide not to work there thanks to the chastising and trashtalking on this thread.

I think you are mistaking honest conversation with trashtalking.

Who is perpetuating Petco's poor husbandry then?

Petco.

I would dare say that it would be you and the others who tried to steer him away. I'm sure you disagree with my way of seeing the issue.

Apparently.

I don't care.

Judging from your responses I think you care very much.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

still here lefty cannot stay away from us have a great day !

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by bmb527
The thing that you and so many others don't seem to comprehend is that Petco is here to stay. Period. 60,000 members of RL will barely make a dent in their business. They sell more dog and cat food than they will ever sell fish product. Most everybody who does not support Petco agrees with this, and has no problem with it. We don't care if Petco sells dog food or cat toys. We don't even care if they sell fish supplies. It's about better livestock care, not bring down a corporate giant. And we are focusing on Petco rather than local mom-and-pops because it's something we can all do together.

What most of "us" do not like is the fact that the corporation does not have good corporate-wide husbandry policies for their SW animals. We do not support Petco's fish department in any way because (as it has been pointed out many times) the SW animals are really the hook to get us to buy supplies, so by either buying the livestock or the supplies, we would be supporting livestock stocking.

If they improved how they took care of their SW animals, or stopped selling them completely, I would have no problem with buying supplies there. Also, I really don't have a problem with someone who boycotts their fish department, but still buys dog food there. They are different departments, and are financially evaluated seperately, so you really can boycott one while supporting the other.

I'd like your thoughts on this. Yours too, wds21921 and SOMEthinsFISHY.Originally posted by bmb527
That being said, if someone who works there can teach a customer the correct way of doing things then that is a start. Petco does do things wrong, I have never disagreed with that. All pet stores do, I have been involved with aquaria of every type for 30 years and have never seen a store that does EVERYTHING right. For example, how many stores have more than 1 tang in a small tank, or have a Mandarine in a bare tank. That is just a couple that I see often at most any store I go into, and NO it isn't just in Denver. I travel quite often for my job and have witnessed this kind of thing at most stores I go to, including stores in SFO, LAX, Chicago, Miami and many others.
Exactly what do you do to help others, away from RL I mean? I applaud the kid for wanting to help get accurate info to people. If he doesn't work there, some idiot that will sell a Koran Angel to someone with a 10 gal tank or worse, a 10 gal freshwater tank will take the job. This kid may decide not to work there thanks to the chastising and trashtalking on this thread. Who is perpetuating Petco's poor husbandry then? I would dare say that it would be you and the others who tried to steer him away. I'm sure you disagree with my way of seeing the issue. I don't care. I agree 99% (It's RC, not RL :) ) Unless there is a labor shortage for store employees, Petco will fill their positions with somebody. It might as well be somebody who cares. That person will be supporting Petco's bottom line, but no worse than anyone who barely graduated high school, woke up one day, and realized, "Crap! I need a job!" What I don't agree with is that it will make a big change to Petco, which was the original question; I also think that if someone is deciding what to do with their life, and likes SW tanks, their are loftier goals than working at Petco. I would have been a marine biologist or ecologist, if I had only known...Originally posted by bmb527
It seems that on this forum, the people with the most posts supposedly are the most knowledgeable. As for life in general, I have found this to be false. People with the most "comments" either like to hear themselves talk or like to have everyone think that they are the be all, end all authority on one or more subjects. I pretty much agree with this, too. I've been wrong too many times to imagine I'm the "be all, end all" on any subject, but I do like to hear myself talk. I know of some good and bad experts here on RC, so I know what you are talking about. If you ever have a chemistry question, be sure to visit the Chemistry forum. Randy is very highly regarded, even if he has a lot of posts. Some day, you may have over 1000 posts, too. I promise I'll consider you based on what you post, not how many you have.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by bmb527


DgenR8,
I know that people with fish tanks often have other pets. Do YOU travel to a dog store and a cat store and then a bird store just to pay more and waste gas for the EXACT same items you could have purchased at Petco or Petsmart? If your answer is yes then that is your choice, (in my opinion an irresponsible one). The fact is millions of people own pets of every type and most pet stores are "specialty" stores dealing in fish or dogs or whatever, there are not many "mom&pop pet stores around anymore. This leaves 2 options, 1) drive all over town to a bunch of different stores, or, 2) make one stop at a store like Petco. The people who choose the first option would also probably cut off their nose to spite their face. With the price of fuel now, I do as much "one stop shopping" as possible.

It seems that on this forum, the people with the most posts supposedly are the most knowledgeable. As for life in general, I have found this to be false. People with the most "comments" either like to hear themselves talk or like to have everyone think that they are the be all, end all authority on one or more subjects.


What's with the attack? I never claimed to be "the most knowledgeable" and I never tried to make anyone think I am the be all and/or end all of anything. I see no need to justify my post count to you or anyone else. You want to make an intelligent argument based on fact, take the time to do the research on what I've posted.

As for my pets, their needs, and how I obtain what I need to fulfill them, I have my tanks, I have a dog, and I have 2 birds. I don't need 3 different stores to care for them, and believe it or not I still don't shop at a Petco. I do frequent more than one store just for my fish needs/wants. My dog and bird needs are easily met at almost any of the "fish stores" I frequent.
Your condescending tone is well noted, and not appreciated.

[bmb527]

DgenR8,
I'm glad that you can get the products to care for your animals at 1 real pet store and wish that I could find a place like that near where I live. I did not mean for my post to sound like a personal attack towards you. I only meant to say that on many of the forums for many interests I have that a lot of people tend to come across as "wise" purely based on the ammount of posts they have in their signature. I still think that a person who will drive all over a large city to pay more for identicle products that can be purchased at Petco is being irresponsible by wasting precious, expensive fuel. I too frequent more than one LFS for my aquarium needs. I just cannot find one store that sells the products I prefer to feed my dogs and macaw.

Must get going, gotta go to Dr's w/ wife and check on progress of our bun in the oven!

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

hey shoe what kinda pie u like ?

[Shoestring Reefer]

That's sort of asking Bubba Gump what you can make with shrimp.

My favorites:
apple pie (any variety, as long as its not from a can)
chocolate cream pie
lemon custard pie
strawberry rhubarb pie
boston cream pie (I think that one is really a cake)
pumpkin pie
mince meat pie IIRC (It's been a while)
whoopie pies (again, not really a pie, but still good)

Home-made cherry pie is good, too. But almost every time I have it, it's made from a can, so I'd rather not ask for it.

Here's a list of pies I don't like:



A while back, I had "push ups" listed as an interest, and was watching my weight as I got older. I made the decision to just eat, and am much happier. Swim suit weather or not, I like to eat. :)

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

come on over i got some !

[crrichey]

Good news everyone, I visited a local Petco today, no bleached coral skeletons, no dead fish floating around in the tank (in fact, everything looked pretty good!), and I had people asking if I needed any help for a change. I still didn't find what I needed (impeller shaft for a Fluval canister filter), but I was happly suprised!

[Rikko]

<dodges pies>
Just read in Pet Product News that Petco settled out of court for over a million dollars for multiple charges of animal neglect and overcharging customers.
*sigh* It'll stop some day. Patience. The PetCetera stores in Canada aren't doing very well (several are losing money) and it looks like LFS business has been on an increase. Our store had a PetCetera move in about 10 blocks away and the only thing we noticed is that we sell less tank kits and more equipment that ever before.

[wds21921]

I returned to this thread today to see how the discussion was going and I'm quite happy that at least some of the hobbyists on here are not closed minded.
My original statements that we're trying to change perception of future hobbyists and not intentionally helping Petco's profits were not received very well and were beginning to travel down the road of immature personal attacks by someone who is supposed to be a head or a major figure in a fish or reef club. This leads me to be happy I am not in that club period.
The truth is we as hobbyists are helpign to deplete and slowly destroy a lot of these ecosystems and putting nothing back in return. That is irresponsible on so many levels it's not even arguable.
If the people who claim to be representative of the hobby would support organizations or at least responsible reef and fish keeping we would eventually all benefit as will our children.
On a personal level, I have found a group from the University of Miami Marine Biology who are attemtping to grow there own corals in closed systems and propogate them for retail sale. This is a step in the right direction at least. I am not supporting a LFS or Distributor who pays very low prices to destroy an ecosystem for my aestheic benefit as the tributaries or the sea are dynamited, poisoned, and destroyed. The s&h costs are high but the cost of the coral is low so it balances out what a LFS would charge.
It's about time people started to put there money where there mouth is instead of attacking people with narrow minded comments and even more irresponsible dribble.
We are directly responsible in part for whatever happens to these reefs and eventually the ecosystem. If your going to attack me for trying to educate people that may want to do at least some good in the hobby then by educating people while they work at Petco you yourself are showing clearly how ignorant you really are.

[wds21921]

Good luck and best wishes BMB for the Bun in the oven.

[Flipturn88]

That's why I love GARF; they've even printed articles about a "zero-impact" reef setup, meaning nothing harms the environment. However, my LFS sells many aquacultured corals and fish, so I continue to support them as well.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
That's why I love GARF; they've even printed articles about a "zero-impact" reef setup, meaning nothing harms the environment. However, my LFS sells many aquacultured corals and fish, so I continue to support them as well.

and that's why i can't stand garf, and have always considered them very foolish, and more so those who they sucker in to their various storylines ;)

IMO - they have done as much 'impact' by misleading people as to what really is involved in keeping a reeftank successfully- how many people do you think have had to upgrade their system's lighting at least once, due to thinking a reef tank needs 'NO' (normal output) lighting only to thrive, long term ?

there is NO such thing as a 'zero impact' aquarium

every single thing you buy, from the tank and stand, to the salt, test kits, etc., either directly or indirectly. affects both the general, and the reef, environment, both through the waste and pollution involved in the manufacture of those items, and the fact that the items also support those who wantonly trade in the livestock industry in an immoral fashion


the 'feelgood platitudes' of garf are ludicrous, and nothing but an incorrect generalization, and rationalization for the hobbyist's 'warm and fuzzy-o-meter'

like it or not-EVERYONE who keeps a reef tank harms the reef somehow, even if extremely indirectly (how much environmental damage did ya cause from the pollution your car makes driving to the lfs, or garf? what about the pollution from generating the electricity you use?

i'd go on for a few more pages, but i'll spare y'all the main rant ;)

they're great at photoshopping, if ya ever need some tips on how to do that, though ;)

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

I spent over 200 bucks at garf and i buy wholsale .I received about 50 dols worth of stuff will never buy from them again !

[Flipturn88]

Originally posted by vitz
and that's why i can't stand garf, and have always considered them very foolish, and more so those who they sucker in to their various storylines ;)

Well I have to think GARF does a whole lot less damage than the majority of us. :rolleye1: Atleast they are making a conscious effort to change. Everything we do is directly related to the environment, there's no way around it. I think GARF is aware of the unaviodable, minor pollution involved in driving cars and turning on lights, but atleast they care enough to make a dent in the mass-collection of wildlife. FWIW, I've never ordered corals from them, but I still support thier aquaculture and efforts. Until I can do better, I will continue to do so as well. JMHO.

BUT...this thread is about Petco, not GARF, so I'm done with this subject.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
I returned to this thread today to see how the discussion was going and I'm quite happy that at least some of the hobbyists on here are not closed minded.
My original statements that we're trying to change perception of future hobbyists and not intentionally helping Petco's profits were not received very well and were beginning to travel down the road of immature personal attacks by someone who is supposed to be a head or a major figure in a fish or reef club. This leads me to be happy I am not in that club period.

Why are immature personal attacks cool when you do them?

The truth is we as hobbyists are helpign to deplete and slowly destroy a lot of these ecosystems and putting nothing back in return. That is irresponsible on so many levels it's not even arguable.

Who is disagreeing with you?

If the people who claim to be representative of the hobby would support organizations or at least responsible reef and fish keeping we would eventually all benefit as will our children.

Who is claiming to be representative of the hobby?
Are you really trying to say that Petco is a responsible reef and fish keeping organization, if not, what do you mean?
How do you know what organizations people are supporting or not supporting?

On a personal level, I have found a group from the University of Miami Marine Biology who are attemtping to grow there own corals in closed systems and propogate them for retail sale. This is a step in the right direction at least.

Great!

I am not supporting a LFS or Distributor who pays very low prices to destroy an ecosystem for my aestheic benefit as the tributaries or the sea are dynamited, poisoned, and destroyed. The s&h costs are high but the cost of the coral is low so it balances out what a LFS would charge.

Where do you get your supplies? Does that not support a LFS or distributor?

It's about time people started to put there money where there mouth is instead of attacking people with narrow minded comments and even more irresponsible dribble.

Sigh. More immature personal attacks.

I submit that you have no idea where people are putting their money - the only info you have is the information in this thread which is only talking about Petco.
And why must you take disagreement with you as attacks?

We are directly responsible in part for whatever happens to these reefs and eventually the ecosystem.

Who is disagreeing with you?

If your going to attack me for trying to educate people that may want to do at least some good in the hobby then by educating people while they work at Petco you yourself are showing clearly how ignorant you really are. [/B]

Several people have disagreed with you and you have not even tried to counter their points. I would really like to hear what you have to say, but you seem more interested in claiming that you are being/have been attacked than in discussing the issues.

By working at Petco one is doing more damage to the hobby and planet than the 'good' one is doing by helping the few customers during the time working at Petco. If ones interest is in helping the hobby and the planet, there are much more effective ways to go about it than working at Petco.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
Well I have to think GARF does a whole lot less damage than the majority of us. :rolleye1: Atleast they are making a conscious effort to change. Everything we do is directly related to the environment, there's no way around it. I think GARF is aware of the unaviodable, minor pollution involved in driving cars and turning on lights, but atleast they care enough to make a dent in the mass-collection of wildlife. FWIW, I've never ordered corals from them, but I still support thier aquaculture and efforts. Until I can do better, I will continue to do so as well. JMHO.

BUT...this thread is about Petco, not GARF, so I'm done with this subject.

claiming to care about saving an animal and then giving out care instructions that are contra-indicated for that animal's long term survival does not say 'we care' about wildlife

it says 'we care' about making money off of cultured life


there's a world of difference ;)


garf is just like any other (most) private semi-amateur level aquaculture ops, no better or worse - they have no 'superior environmental agenda' whatsoever over other aquaculture facilities, since ALL aquaculture facilities help reduce collection pressure

it's the false impression they leave on well meaning hobbyists who don't know any better that puts the bad taste in my mouth when i read their 'conservation oriented' rhetoric


so how many research publications have they put out? they DO claim to be researchers, yes? ;)

[Flipturn88]

Originally posted by vitz
claiming to care about saving an animal and then giving out care instructions that are contra-indicated for that animal's long term survival does not say 'we care' about wildlife

Can you please show me an example of that? I have never seen such from them before. thanks

[i] so how many research publications have they put out? they DO claim to be researchers, yes? ;) [/B]

Actually I was reading a reefing magazine in Barnes and Noble and they wrote an article about their findings from aquaculturing corals (aka research), and in no place did they attempt to sell any of their products. They also showed how to make your own reef structures from around-the-house supplies and local findings; they didn't suggest that people order from them, but rather create their own.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
Can you please show me an example of that? I have never seen such from them before. thanks


Actually I was reading a reefing magazine in Barnes and Noble and they wrote an article about their findings from aquaculturing corals (aka research), and in no place did they attempt to sell any of their products. They also showed how to make your own reef structures from around-the-house supplies and local findings; they didn't suggest that people order from them, but rather create their own.


just the use of the word 'bulletproof' is more than enough for me to know a charlatan when i see one nothing, especially environments as dynamic as a reef tank, can ever be considered as being even mildly 'bulletproof'

those who think it's possible have very little life experience w/'bullets'


barne's and noble is NOT a research publication, nor are any of the works they publish they are a commercial for profit publishing company for books and magazines, and confer no validity on anything whatsoever with regards to it's being labeled research reefkeeping magazines are not research publications, either ;)


please cite me one RESEARCH publication garf has participated in, i.e.- one that's published as a publication of research for the scientific community

any experienced reefkeeper will tell you that recommending 4 NO flouro tubes on a 55 for a reef tank, even if only for the 1st yr., is incredibly stupid, amateurish, and just plain bad and incorrect advice

'bulletproof' my a** :lol:


garf is the petco of information for beginning reefers :mixed:

[Flipturn88]

Here is a letter from the homepage of GARF:

"Hello, This is LeRoy. It is July 4, and we are asking for your help.
We need to contact many coral farmers who may want to be part of a new research project. If you own a one tank farm and sell to your local stores, or if you have a ocean based farm please Email: leroy@garf.org

We are now 8 years into a 10 year research project, that started with and still does, supply information about Coral Farming. Our goal has been to help enough Coral Farmers, so that our industry can produce the vast majority of the marine life we need for a rapidily growing industry."


BTW, They don't claim to have it all down, or to know everything about reefing. Anyone who does is foolish, because the more you learn in this hobby, the more you realize how little you truly know. ;)

I am done with this subject because I have better things to do with my time than argue about a company that has only good intentions of helping this hobby.

Happy Reefing! :)

[wds21921]

The comments were not directly realted to you but to another individual but since you seem to thrive on this showmanship of cut and paste I will try to simply reply by saying that in the incidence of Petco, if your willing to allow Petco to hire completely uneducated people what do you think they're going to tell customers?
Most likely whatever there boss or another uneducated employee told them. I'll let that stand as it is.

The only one who sees my comments as an immature personal attack are you so I can't answer for your personal shortcomings or problems.

I never implied that Petco was a repsonsible group, again you're using broad generalizations and completely taking things out of context for the sake of personal showmanship. Anyone on here has the ability to cut and paste but instead of trying to show how savvy we are with Windows, we attempt to discuss things in the context of improvement or at least debate. You on the other hand seem to only want to rip every comment apart and create negative comments. Not just with me but with anyone who offers an opinion you do not like.

I'll discuss anything you'd like and maybe your right and maybe I'm wrong but if your intentions are to sit here and disect every persons post for your own enjoyment, to try and impress anyone, you may be falling just a tad bit short of your goals.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921
[B]The comments were not directly realted to you but to another individual but since you seem to thrive on this showmanship of cut and paste

Why continue with the insults? Cant we just have a discussion.
If you make general statements you gotta expect general responses.
And its not cut and paste, quoting is a handy helpful feature of phpbb and other boards.

I will try to simply reply by saying that in the incidence of Petco, if your willing to allow Petco to hire completely uneducated people what do you think they're going to tell customers?

I am not allowing Petco anything. They like to hire drudge workers, and they do their best to stifle people who know more. Over and over again somebody writes about their experience of working at Petco just to have their good intentions blocked and eventually leave from frustration.
Again, if a person really wants to have a positive effect on our hobby and the environment, there are much more productive ways to spend time than working for Petco.


Most likely whatever there boss or another uneducated employee told them.

That is a really, really funny sentence.

I'll let that stand as it is.

I know. What I am wondering is if you have even read and understood the arguments laid out in this thread about how helping Petco by working there as an 'educated' person enables them to damage and kill even more livestock company wide?

The only one who sees my comments as an immature personal attack are you so I can't answer for your personal shortcomings or problems.

How is that not a personal attack?
And, have you really surveyed everyone who has read this thread to make the determination that I am the only one that finds your manner attacking and personal?


I never implied that Petco was a repsonsible group, again you're using broad generalizations and completely taking things out of context for the sake of personal showmanship.

And you are taking a question I asked you and using it as an excuse to attack me again. Remember the question mark at the end of the sentence? That means I want to know what you think. The context was blurry at least, hence the question.

Anyone on here has the ability to cut and paste but instead of trying to show how savvy we are with Windows, we attempt to discuss things in the context of improvement or at least debate.

Boy, you really like to get personal instead of discussing the issue at hand. Plus, you are simply wrong on many levels. It ain't cut and paste, I don't use windows, and you aren't addressing the issues I am questioning you about. So far, you have simply reiterated what you have said before, giving no indication that you have even bothered to consider other viewpoints.

You on the other hand seem to only want to rip every comment apart and create negative comments.

I don't believe responding to what you actually wrote is ripping anything apart, nor do I think my comments have been negitive. I am trying to understand what you are saying, trying to get you to hear another side, and trying to maintain accuracy. I am terribly sorry if you find direct communication to be a bother.

Not just with me but with anyone who offers an opinion you do not like.

Its all effort to accurately understand opinions different than mine, and I do it with anything I don't understand, not simply with things I don't like.

[quote]I'll discuss anything you'd like and maybe your right and maybe I'm wrong but if your intentions are to sit here and disect every persons post for your own enjoyment, to try and impress anyone, you may be falling just a tad bit short of your goals. [quote]

Those are not my motivations. I think it would be better if you looked at what I actually wrote instead of trying to discern nefarious intent. Time and again I have asked you direct questions about the topic at hand. Rarely do you respond, instead you spend your time attacking me as a person. I am at a loss as to how to proceed.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

comon now let us be nice 2 one another !

[ghostbear29]

well, I had a different experience altogether. the tanks were clean and well kept. Live stock was separated correctly from what ive been reading. And Their inverts were HUGE. Good looking specs. The "other" LFS was more like you were describing.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Flipturn88
Here is a letter from the homepage of GARF:

"Hello, This is LeRoy. It is July 4, and we are asking for your help.
We need to contact many coral farmers who may want to be part of a new research project. If you own a one tank farm and sell to your local stores, or if you have a ocean based farm please Email: leroy@garf.org

We are now 8 years into a 10 year research project, that started with and still does, supply information about Coral Farming. Our goal has been to help enough Coral Farmers, so that our industry can produce the vast majority of the marine life we need for a rapidily growing industry."


BTW, They don't claim to have it all down, or to know everything about reefing. Anyone who does is foolish, because the more you learn in this hobby, the more you realize how little you truly know. ;)

I am done with this subject because I have better things to do with my time than argue about a company that has only good intentions of helping this hobby.

Happy Reefing! :)

i as well, have better things to do-think i'll go work on my one tank coral farm :lol:

[Flipturn88]

Yes Vitz...I checked out your site...very nice. :)

[DgenR8]

Ten pages long, and I'm thinking this thread has run it's course. I'm going to leave it open for now, but I want to be sure that everyone knows that it is poised on the proverbial brink, and one more post that I see as an attack or insult I will snap the lock.

[Thales]

Thank you Larry.

[wds21921]

Ok Lefty what I'm referring to is the fact that with so many bad LFS's out there offering so much disinformtaion wouldn't it be better if there was at least some voice out there with some good education at least? Most likely through Petco I would think Matt would reach more people at least in quantity most likely? It's a start.

Having actually been in the hobby for well over 20 years I've seen people who had a backgrounds in water chemistry, Marine Biology, animal husbandry etc. publishing information that is later disproved and sometimes actually harmful.
This is compounded by the fact that what we're trying to do is actually complicated (recreate or sustain life in a closed enviroment succesfully). Sometimes even the information we get isn't always that great either.

Would Matt's efforts be better used somewhere else? I'm sure they could be but is letting Petco continue to do business status quo any better than not doing anything at all? They're going to continue to sell and cater to anyone who will spend the money they want.

If the ultimate idea is to put Petco out of business or to get them to remove fish or saltwater species from there inventory I dont' think that's a reality because of all the extra supplies and equipment they can sell. i.e. profitable material. We on here can decide to not purchase from them in the hopes it will at least make some impact but the results at best will be very minimal and maybe not even noticeable.

My read on it is that Matt's intentions are to at least make some sort of positive impact to potential future hobbyists which is unarguably better than someone who doesn't know anything.

Petco apparently, by other postings, doesn't have a great track record for giving good and correct information or supporting people who do so. Do we give up and just let it keep perpetuating is my question, or do we keep trying until someone will listen and start to "maybe" change there way of thinking?

Say that by doing that we don't change the way the conduct there business and that concept fails, haven't his efforts at least made some positive impact on at least a few hobbyists which normally wouldn't happen? Isn't something better than nothing at all?

Your proposal that by having one good voice we're going to build on their business and allow say 20 more bad voices to sell animals that will potentially die might be correct. It could also be wrong. There is a chance (again maybe) that Petco could decide to start educating there employess a little more in the future.

I understand your notion that it's going to continue to cause calamity but whether we decide to change that concept or not is going to have even more negative impact if nothing is done because the sales are going to continue regardless.

Doing nothing is a lose-lose situation for everyone, including in the long term Petco. You and I disagree about that I think.

Any company that cannot provide good customer support and quality information is going to limit the extent there customer is going to continue to purchase from them. That is unless they have a unique product. What we're talking about isn't unique, limited perhaps but not unique. Petco or any other bad LFS is going to have a measured existance if they continue to give bad information, sell less than quality type products, and fail to give necessary support.

Petco is a little more unique though because they can supplement there losses for a while by the sales of other type of animal products which are succesful and profitable. This will inherently give them a potentially larger market share, even if only temporary because of the quantity of customers who will visit there stores.

Where are you going to make a larger impact than that by reaching more "potential" hobbyists? My point is to try and reach the customer at the beginning with some decent information BEFORE they start.
The best place for them to start would be by getting involved in a local club first and meeting people who are involved in the hobby and do care about the animals and the impact we make on the industry and the enviroment. The truth is these clubs are not always within reasonable distance, hold limited meetings, and to be honest are sometimes VERY difficult to find. On top of that is the fact that most people like to dive head first into something lol. They'd rather have the instant gratification.

A side benefit for the hobby has been the internet which allows places like this to exist and provide experienced information. I think (and could be wrong) that even when faced with a $1000-$2000 investment people will at best, still only do limited research before they spend the money.
The availability of these type of sites however can also add to the confusion factor i.e. Calurpa, wet/dry, wattage of lights per gallon, etc.

Sorry that was a tangent. Getting back to the original discussion I still believe having some positive impact will spread when measurable success is achieved. Constant negatives will limit the lifecycle of any product, this is a proven fact in all businesses. This is just common sense. Even with a corporation the size of Petco, the potential of there existance still becomes limited at some point.

Maybe this will better explain my reasoning? If not please feel free to post whatever questions you have and we can discuss them point by point.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Any update, Matt?

Am I the only one who PMs around here? I mean, other than to offer a price for something, or to get a buddy to join in on a thread. Why not discuss some of this privately? Or get a room.

[Thales]

Thanks for the effort!
I am going to quote some of your post because it is so long. I don't mean it to argumentitive.

Originally posted by wds21921
Would Matt's efforts be better used somewhere else? I'm sure they could be but is letting Petco continue to do business status quo any better than not doing anything at all?

I'm not advocating doing nothing at all, but that if you want to do something working at Petco isn't a great idea.

They're going to continue to sell and cater to anyone who will spend the money they want.

If the ultimate idea is to put Petco out of business or to get them to remove fish or saltwater species from there inventory I dont' think that's a reality because of all the extra supplies and equipment they can sell. i.e. profitable material.

Sure, but I'm not sure that is a good enough reason to help them. Just because they are in business and going to stay in business doesn't mean we should support them.

We on here can decide to not purchase from them in the hopes it will at least make some impact but the results at best will be very minimal and maybe not even noticeable.

Sure it minimal, but if we don't help them or shop there we are putting our money where our mouth is and I think that counts for something.


Petco apparently, by other postings, doesn't have a great track record for giving good and correct information or supporting people who do so. Do we give up and just let it keep perpetuating is my question, or do we keep trying until someone will listen and start to "maybe" change there way of thinking?

I don't think we should give up, I think we should be trying to stop Petco - in the same way we don't shop at bad LFS.
For the last 6 years I have seen the Petco issue come up on various online boards many many times (and before that I watched it come up over and over again in herp circles). Every time someone tries to change it from within they end up pretty quickly leaving in frustration and Petco keeps chugging along. The problem is that it isn't generally a store to store problem, but a policy problem, and there is no way that working at a store will help change corporate policy.

Say that by doing that we don't change the way the conduct there business and that concept fails, haven't his efforts at least made some positive impact on at least a few hobbyists which normally wouldn't happen? Isn't something better than nothing at all?

I don't think so because helping one Petco helps the entire chain - all the stores benefit. Helping the 'few' customers that come to one Petco also enables all the other Petcos to expand and continue to practice mostly horrible husbandry. The help side of the equation does get a little better, but that also supports the hurt side of the equation.

Your proposal that by having one good voice we're going to build on their business and allow say 20 more bad voices to sell animals that will potentially die might be correct. It could also be wrong. There is a chance (again maybe) that Petco could decide to start educating there employess a little more in the future.

Agreed. I have just seen too many people try (including myself) to believe that working at a Petco will have any meaningful, lasting effect on Policy. Exposing them and putting public pressure on them might.

Doing nothing is a lose-lose situation for everyone, including in the long term Petco. You and I disagree about that I think.

Except I am not advocating doing nothing! :D

Any company that cannot provide good customer support and quality information is going to limit the extent there customer is going to continue to purchase from them. That is unless they have a unique product. What we're talking about isn't unique, limited perhaps but not unique. Petco or any other bad LFS is going to have a measured existance if they continue to give bad information, sell less than quality type products, and fail to give necessary support.

I agree with you about LFS, but not about chains like Petco that make their money from volume sales. As business move towards volume, customer service and retention become less and less important. They don't care if they lose 10 people because of poor service because there are 100 others that will come simply for the prices. Its the same reason voice mail systems are designed to make you jump through hoops for 5-10 minutes before they put you one hold to talk to someone; they are hoping you just go away so they don't have to deal with you.

Where are you going to make a larger impact than that by reaching more "potential" hobbyists? My point is to try and reach the customer at the beginning with some decent information BEFORE they start.

I agree and I do as much as I can to do that. I am the New Reefers moderator on another board, I am very active in my local club, I help customers while hanging out at the LFS that I like.


The best place for them to start would be by getting involved in a local club first and meeting people who are involved in the hobby and do care about the animals and the impact we make on the industry and the enviroment. The truth is these clubs are not always within reasonable distance, hold limited meetings, and to be honest are sometimes VERY difficult to find. On top of that is the fact that most people like to dive head first into something lol. They'd rather have the instant gratification.

Agreed! I just think that helping Petco isn't a great idea. Get the local Petco to allow you to put up signs promoting online boards and local club meetings might be good, but supporting the 'machine' seems futile and enabling.

Getting back to the original discussion I still believe having some positive impact will spread when measurable success is achieved. Constant negatives will limit the lifecycle of any product, this is a proven fact in all businesses. This is just common sense. Even with a corporation the size of Petco, the potential of there existance still becomes limited at some point.

I see what you are saying, but I think most of the country is more interested in saving a buck than getting good customer service. People know that walmart is icky, but they save money by going there.
There is a 'new' petco in SD with a huge saltwater section that had many people excited that perhaps petco was coming around. It sadly seems that within a month of its opening it is working like almost every other petco.

Maybe this will better explain my reasoning? If not please feel free to post whatever questions you have and we can discuss them point by point.

It does very much, and I thank you for spending the time on it. You and I can agree to disagree, but at least we have both been heard by the other.

Thanks again,

RR

[wds21921]

Good points Lefty. I don't wholeheartedly agree with some of the ideas but I definitely understand your points much better.

Lefty and I weren't planning on anything but a discussion so the comment of "get a room" isn't really necessary. Lefty isn't my type and I serioulsy doubt I'm his type either.

I haven't worked for Petco so your insight is a lot better than mine as to there internal workings, that part I can't debate. I do know that even though the wholesale or quantity buying market itself is hot it will also reach a saturation point. BJ's is a good example. When people found out that they could buy in less qty for still less than average retail prices they beagn to shop elsewhere. Every form of business has a lifecycle and none last forever. Even Petco will eventually reach it's limit.

Part of the problem is the dissemination of information that I alluded to before. People who write books or get on discussion boards that have some form of credentials may mean to offer valuable information but until recently, a lot of the so-called facts that were being offered were merely trial and error experiments at best.

I got into the hobby in the mid 70's actually and the information was horrible at best. I have seen recently though in the last 4 years a lot of work being done on controlled studies that better explain the hows and why's which has lead to better quality of life for the animals as well as longer life spans in a closed enviroment. Hopefully, Petco too is just a part of the growing pain of this hobby?
I think we can both agree that the the hobbyists and the animals would most likely be better off without them.

From some of the postings it sounds as though at least a few of the stores are trying to make an attempt at turning around the companies image. We see the same thing in a lot of the LFS as the business progresses the owner loses interest over time perhaps and the quality of animals and the help go downhill. That was where I was at with the LFS I was working at. I at least managed to get the quality of animlas and help back up, but the business itself had too any factors going against it. Reputation went downhill, large chains opening up catering to the same customers, and lack of interest from the owner. I was faced with at least a few of the same things you would be facing at Petco except that it was not a large chain (3 stores).

Even with that though, I still managed to educate people to understand what it takes to properly care for a tank and keep the animals alive longer than a few weeks lol. Most likely they get at least most of there supplies from one of the two larger chains but I'm pretty sure feww if any of there animals come from either one of them.

[SOMEthinsFISHY]

well thats good news !!