Sad news for natural coral reefs!!!

[Mimi]

Hey all,

I figured you would be interested in reading this article I saw.
It's pretty sad! Makes me want to get 100% all tank raised stuff!!!!!!! :eek2:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040221/wl_nm/environment_australia_reef_dc_2


Mimi

[barnacle bill]

what does global warming have to do with collection, sounds like we should buy all the corals up and get them in our temperature controlled tanks. It does suck but people cannot do with out their cars!

[Oldschooler]

I totally see your point, Mimi, but Barnacle Bill has a point, too. My entire adult life I've heard people complaining about the "pet trade" as the cause of everything from mass extinction to cancer. The fact is, the majority of captive propogation of MOST animals in captivity is not going on in professional "zoos" (which, in my opinion, are out to take away our rights to keep these animals so we must PAY to see them ONLY in zoos or preserves), but in the homes of hobbyists.

This is not to say we shouldn't save natural reefs! We need to be a lot more careful with everything "out there"! Still, we've got much bigger pressures on the natural systems than collection. :(

~Roberto

[Mimi]

Hey guys,
I see your points too. They are pretty good ones. But I think that collections do impact reef extinction. Yeah, the global warming thing is a variable that can't be changed by altering the collecting of corals and animals...but if less were collected there would be more corals ... giving them some fighting chance to survive and grow some more. :)

Hey I tried! After all, I'm not a marine biologist....maybe I'm just missing the entire point and should just stick to fixing broken human stuff :D

mimi
:rollface:

[kevlouie]

Theres a discussion going on topside about this too.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323367&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[Oldschooler]

Nope... You shouldn't "stick to" anything but being yourself! Just don't be thin-skinned in here. A bunch of hard-headed, opinionated and nerdy guys means you are GONNA have disagreements! Just remember, they're only words on a screen! Lord knows I've gotten downright ugly with some of these dudes on the forums, only to hug each other in person! LOL

And you are correct... *Technically*, if you leave corals in a polluted, changing ocean, they at least have a *chance* at growing... LOL But if you take a *few* heads out and put them in the hands of gurus that can DEFINITELY grow them, you eliminate the need to pull any FUTURE heads for the hobby, because captive propogation FOREVER eliminates the pressure of the hobby on the reefs!

~Roberto,:artist:

[coralreefing]

"My opinion"
Nature has been doing this since well before we were here to watch it happen. Climates are not a constant. The reefs will adapt & recover. Pollution is another subject however....

I think we as hobbiest & the industry should strive for 95% captive raised. Less pressure on the reef & hardy corals for our tanks with known requirements. Why not 100%? Nature is always creating something new. We don't want to fall behind.

Chris

[Oldschooler]

Great point, Chris, and to add to it...

...I've always wondered how people can separate "natural" this and "natural" that from "man-made" this and "man-made" that. Aren't we a PART of nature, itself? If a beaver builds a dam, is it somehow "un-natural"??? If not, why is a skyscraper "un-natural"? Oh... Because we're so EFFICIENT, as a species??? Think on it, guys... LOL

~Roberto:artist:

[kevlouie]

Because dominant species tend to crowd the others out. I think we would qualify. Dominant species tend to become ever more efficient at utilizing resources until there is a crash. Don't we as intelligent species need to prevent that from happening? Doing what we can anyway, preserving some biodiversity, but without the stupid stuff. Its the typical example but who knows what properties some antibody found in a coral may have.

Of course we are part of the nature, but we have bent her to our will.

[rcmike]

That reminds me. Everybody remember that truck wreck west of Dickson where the driver was avoiding a bull that was hit in the interstate? I heard they were blaming the bull being in the road because of housing developments taking up farmland. Most of the people I know around here keep their cattle inside a fence and don't let them roam around. It amazes me what the media can come up with.

[Oldschooler]

Mike! That's a PERFECT example! If a bunch of coral on a reef expel their algae because of some solar flare millions of miles away (okay, I'm making this up), and the resulting nutrient dump causes a bacteria bloom and chokes out a large reef, do we say "stupid corals" for doing what they are designed by nature to do???

Likewise, why should we hold our species to some higher standard - because we *perceive* ourselves to be "intelligent"??? If we over-develop the land and cause cattle to break out and cause accidents, were we "stupid" for being so successful that it leads to our demise?

Either way, that story sucks (can I say "sucks" on here?). Like the kids who were buried alive in hot asphalt today in Missouri. Kinda makes all the stuff that goes wrong in your day seem insignificant by comparison, doesn't it?????

~Roberto

[Mimi]

I never knew how such a simple coral reef article could prompt such a deep, intellectual intelligent conversation among us.

:reading:

[reewik]

Yeah and just imagine if Dog was spelled CAT!

[aquaman67]

20,000 years ago sea level was 394 feet lower than it is today. As recently (in geological terms) as 7,000 years ago the oceans were 66 feet lower than today. Many reefs, now fossils, have been drowned out by the raising sea. As massive as the Great Barrier Reef is, it's only 5,000 years old.

As the level of the ocean changes, old reefs die and new ones are created. So goes the cycle of the Earth. While it's sad to witness the death of a reef, we will not be without reefs in the future. New life will be born, as it has since time itself.

[Oldschooler]

Deep, man... Deeeeeeep...:smokin:

[kevlouie]

Hey I understand what you guys are saying. But c'mon, we are the most intelligent species on the planet, and that comes with big responsibilities. Are we still at the mercy of the earth? You bet. Coral reefs are gonna be fine as a whole, but who knows what we lose every day to extinction, and not just on corals. Research is the key there. Corals are adapted to slow incremental change, they can handle the rate of sea level rise taking place now, and the temperature change will just change their distribution.

Do YOU know what triggered the mass extinctions at the end of the Permian Period? How about the ones at the end of the Cambrian, Ordivician, Devonian or even the Cretaceous? Sure there are theories but the fact is we aren't sure, and the bottom line is everything we do COULD be hastening the earth towards the next one. There are built in buffers but we seem to be affecting those too. Do some research on thermohaline circulation, and try not to freak out. I'm not an alarmist, I drive a SUV, eat beef and think we shouldn't go berserk over whats happening, but limiting the affects of our species on the planet is just common sense, if you want to kids to enjoy it too. :p

[aquaman67]

I understand what you are saying Kev and agree totally. I'm glad we no longer use lead in gasoline, for example.

My point was that reefs have died and been born since the beginning of time and will continue to do so whether we are here or not. And I agree we have added to the problem, more than anything else on earth.

As a side note, I just found out I live almost in a very large impact crater some 200 million years old called Wells Creek Basin...how cool is that!

http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/images/wells-creek.htm

[kevlouie]

That would have sucked to be near that when it hit, theres also a more eroded impact crater just north of Fayetteville (the Howell Structure). If you ever want to see a geologic map of the Wells Creek impact site I might be able to post a pic.

[kevlouie]

Hmm this is interesting too. Hope they don't freak out with regs, but some is needed I guess.





PRESS RELEASE

Wednesday, February 25, 2004

By John Brandt
Legislation Representative
Marine Aquarium Societies of North America


WASHINGTON, DC – The United States Commission on Ocean Policy (USCOP) presented a preliminary report today at the meeting of The United States Coral Reef Task Force (USCRTF) announcing that the Commission will recommend to Congress that the International trade in marine ornamental species be regulated.

The U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy will publish its report in two stages. Notification of the release of the draft report will appear in the Federal Register http://www.access.gpo.gov, as well as the USCOP website http://www.oceancommission.gov. This report will be made available to Governors and interested stakeholders early in 2004 for review and public comment. After the deadline for comment the report will be finalized by USCOP and presented to the President and Congress for the purpose of creating public policy.

Dr. Paul Sandifer, Commissioner for USCOP, revealed a list of recommended actions to be presented to Congress to preserve and protect oceans and coral reefs. One recommendation is to adopt legislation ensuring that any marine food and ornamental species imported to the United States be collected only by sustainable means. No further details were available at the time.

As mandated by the Oceans Act 2000 (P.L. 106-256), the U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy will establish findings and make final recommendations to the President and Congress for a coordinated and comprehensive national ocean policy. The new policy will address a broad range of issues, from ocean governance to the stewardship of marine resources and pollution prevention to enhancing and supporting marine science, commerce and transportation.


© Marine Aquarium Societies of North America

[Bddizzzy]

I only buy/trade for captive corals. There was another story on yahoo about dredging on the Pacific coast with pictures before and after dredging. It would make you sick. There has to be a better way to harvest marine animals(including for food).

[Mimi]

Wait...so lead gasoline is bad for you? Hmmm....so eating lead is also bad??...damn pain...I knew I shouldn't have eaten that tasty stuff off the walls....that starts to explain a lot for me now!

:D

Anyhow...I'm in philly now...does anyone want a yummy hot juicy cheese steak??
I know Sean would...Roberto would....I would....hell...let's just admit it, cheese steak is great for everyone! You can be spiritual or religious....cheese steak is everyone's friend!

No, I am not high on any form of chemicals...just high on life...or maybe it's the pollutants here in the city of brotherly love. Or maybe I visited seans "special" herbitology professor!:smokin:



Peace!
Mimi :lol:

[A. Critter Killer]

LOL...that was a 'random' (Rob's favorite word, lol) post Mimi...I can't believe you 'drug' my botany professor into it!! What can I say, his office is called a "herbarium" lol. ----Sean

[fishdoc11]

I think the key word in that article is "worst case scenario". Such reports tend to be alarmist in nature. I believe the truth falls somewhere in between reports like that one and Phil Valentine's saying global warming is a figment of our imagination (I should'nt get myself started on that guy). Global warming is definately impacting reefs but the extent to which it affects them will only be known in the future. It is interesting to note that ceartain reefs recover almost completely from most bleaching events, specifically those in the Caribbean due to their ability to utilize several different types of zooxanthelle. Maybe other reefs can evolve to recover more quickly in the future. When you consider collection practices the vast majority of the impact comes from improper procedures such as cyanide fishing and dynamiting. Also anchors and improper/unresponsible recreation cause a good bit of impact even here in our country where most coral collection is illegal. We do have a responsibility as stewards to protect what has been put in our care but it is hard to tell a guy in the Indo Pacific he can't use cyanide to feed his family for the day. Unfortunately corals tend to take a back seat when your kids are hungry. I guess in a nutshell there are no easy answers.
Chris

[Oldschooler]

Well said, Chris. THIS is what I like to see... Thoughtful discussion...