Perfect Plumbing Plans?

[kev-dog1]

Hello All
We're planning on recarpeting our house. Not tomorrow, but hopefully before Santa visits again. Since the tanks will be totally torn down to accomplish this, I plan on upgrading my tank at that time. Bigger and better as they say. This time I'd like to go with a sump worked into the system.
My problem stems from having ZERO plumbing experience or acuity.
Plus with new carpeting I MUST eliminate the chance of flooding. "She who must be obeyed" would freak if there was a flood on brand new carpet.
Is there such a thing as "flood free" or would this be a pipedream?
Can anyone point we to the perfect plumbing plan? I need all the durso mods, check valves, sump sizes, fail-safe options available to 21st century reefkeeping.
Thanks,
kev-dog

[cwa46]

There is only one foolproof method I have seen used. You can go to a HVAC company and have a drain pan made for your stand. It is like a huge cookie sheet with 3" edges and a drain in it. Put your stand inside and hook up the drain. Any leakage will be caught.

[fishdoc11]

cwa,
If I'm not mistaken those are made of galvanized metal. Would'nt that leach some contaminates into the sump in case of failure? Or do you run the drain somewhere else?
Chris

[Oldschooler]

If you like cwa's idea in principle, you could always fabricate a drain pan relatively easily using products available at the chain hardware stores. Sheets of Lexan glued with acrylic glue or whatever that bonding agent is called that "welds" acrylic and plastic... I've never used it, but I know it exists because I've sent countless customers after it for various reptile and fish related projects...

[cwa46]

The drain from the pan has to be outside or to the sewer. One that I have seen, the guy just drilled a 1/2" hole in the floor and let the drain go into his crawl space. The drain may never be used so a little water in the crawl space is a lot different than damaged flooring or carpet. There are pvc pans with drains for water heaters and some furnaces. They also come with drains, but aren't big enough for most tanks.
Finally, if you use a pan, be careful it is well supported and can take alot of pressure, because your stand is heavy and your carpet and pad will flex. I would put 3/4" ply between the carpet and pan to avoid any flex problems.

[coralreefing]

You could actually just build a pan inside your stand & put your sump, fuge, etc. inside that. That would catch any spill short of the main tank overflowing & would be hidden.

Chris

[kev-dog1]

Thanks everyone for your input. Keep it coming.
Personally I don't like the idea, asthetically, of a "pan" underneath the stand, but something designed to conform to the INSIDE of the stand sounds doable with a drain to the crawl space.

What I was hoping for was information/diagram on size of sump, amount of water in sump, siphon breaking mods in the return...as well as noise reduction mods like durso mods etc. to create the "perfect plumbing" system. Hoping to learn from others' mistakes. I'm just worried that in a power failure, I might have a flood.
FYI:
I'm not gonna have a monster tank but probably either a 75g or 90g. If this helps in suggesting sump size and water volume.

From another angle...Can you tell me the common causes of floods? - i.e. power failure, pump failure, etc. Maybe this can help me plan back-up systems as insurance.
kev-dog

[cwa46]

Originally posted by kev-dog1
Thanks everyone for your input. Keep it coming.
Personally I don't like the idea, asthetically, of a "pan" underneath the stand, but something designed to conform to the INSIDE of the stand sounds doable with a drain to the crawl space.

What I was hoping for was information/diagram on size of sump, amount of water in sump, siphon breaking mods in the return...as well as noise reduction mods like durso mods etc. to create the "perfect plumbing" system. Hoping to learn from others' mistakes. I'm just worried that in a power failure, I might have a flood.
FYI:
I'm not gonna have a monster tank but probably either a 75g or 90g. If this helps in suggesting sump size and water volume.

From another angle...Can you tell me the common causes of floods? - i.e. power failure, pump failure, etc. Maybe this can help me plan back-up systems as insurance.
kev-dog

I agree with asthetic problem wiht a pan. That is why I have never had one. On the other hand, I have had several leaks and one was the main tank. So the inside pan may not be very foolproof.

I will never put another system over carpet.

The most common problem is after a power outage. Does your system have enough room in the sump so the system can drain down without overflowing the sump.

I have also had snails plug a standipe. The other overflow could'nt keep up and the tank overflowed.

The plumbing design is important, but maintenance is the real key. Buildup can plug siphon holes, drains, overflows and even pumps.

Your plumbing design depends on what you want to keep in the tank. Fish only, coral, reef or mixed. For SPS some recommend moving your water 10X-20X tank volumes per hour. Or 750-1500 gal per hour on a 75 gal. tank. You can acheive this with a big sump pump and large overflows. Or you can reduce the sump turnover to 4X to 6X per hour and add powerheads or a closed loop system to keep the total turnover at the targeted level.

What is your turnover going to be?

[kev-dog1]

I had heard to aim for 10x turnover. I've read a little about SQWDs and will consider this as an alternative for extra circulation.

The main reason I want to go with a sump is to get rid of things like powerheads, heaters, hob skimmers - moving as much of this equipment to the sump.

My reef tank now is mostly leathers, polyps, and shrooms and more than likely will stay that way. I think I will change my lighting system from vho to pc when I make this change which should allow me to add a little more variety.

I'm pretty good with maintenance so if I know where my trouble spots are I can pay attention to keeping those clean, but snails? what do you do about that?

[coralreefing]

Have 2 overflows large enough that each will keep up with the return pump. Or within the overflow have 2 standpipes one taller than the other so if the first gets blocked the water only rises high enough to use the second. In short try to have a backup for everything. A main cause of sump overflow is return lines siphoning back. So you either need to plumb your return outlets high & make sure you have enough sump capacity to hold the drain back or drill anti siphon holes in the return lines above the water level. But as CWA said you have to keep them clean or they will fail.

Chris

[fishdoc11]

You probably allready know this but there is a sump and overflow volume calculator on RC. I think on the home page on the left side.
Chris

[Oldschooler]

I really did hesitate before posting this, but you are asking for opinions... LOL

Being the retarded "old schooler" I am... We're using cannister filters and water changes with great results at our store. Ain't scared of power outages. Short of a cannister actually cracking (which might happen after years and years, by which time you'd want to replace your carpet, anyway), we should never have an overflow. Ever. This doesn't mention Plenum systems, etc., etc...

For a lot of people the current, technology-driven "way" is the fun way, but I can defy that it is the "only" way... That, and some of the other "ways" reduce your risk of overflow...

~Roberto

[wooglin]

I would maintain that the sump is the low tech method. In most reef tanks the sump is not for filtration (dont think wet dry, that is the critter talking). It is a way to add extra water volume, setup an area as a refugium, create a large amount of water movement, and to hide equipment such as heaters and possibly skimmers. For many the perfect reef tank shows nothing but an overflow and a water output (my tank does not meet this criteria, I have two powerheads in addition to my 1000gph pump that is in the sump.)

Think about just the water movement, how else can you create a 10 to 15 x movement in your tank. It would take 4-5 powerheads withouth a sump on a 75 gallon. On a larger tank even more. Then you have all the other junk that you really want to hide.

[MadTownMax]

check-valves are useless - drill a small hole just above the water level on your return pipe to prevent siphoning in the event of a power-outage (especially if you plan on installing spray-bars behind your rock-work)

use egg-crate to pre-screen water going into your overflow and if that is not good enough use sponges around the intakes on your overflow tubes so that nothing can get inside of the tubes (will slow down water flow though, and you will neeed to clean the sponges frequently).

If you really want to it should be possible to find a water-alarm that could shut-off your return pump in the event of something clogging the overflow.

Some large floods were caused by automatic top-off systems getting stuck on, or skimmers combined with kalk-water dosing (the high pH from the kalk causes the skimmer to over-foam, thus dumping skimmate on the floor, and the auto top-off keeps filling in more water, the cycle continues until the auto top-off runs out of water).



These are some precautions that have worked for me and are worth thinking about but I'm sure there are some more.

[cwa46]

Originally posted by wooglin
I would maintain that the sump is the low tech method. In most reef tanks the sump is not for filtration (dont think wet dry, that is the critter talking). It is a way to add extra water volume, setup an area as a refugium, create a large amount of water movement, and to hide equipment such as heaters and possibly skimmers. For many the perfect reef tank shows nothing but an overflow and a water output (my tank does not meet this criteria, I have two powerheads in addition to my 1000gph pump that is in the sump.)

Think about just the water movement, how else can you create a 10 to 15 x movement in your tank. It would take 4-5 powerheads withouth a sump on a 75 gallon. On a larger tank even more. Then you have all the other junk that you really want to hide.

Closed loop systems don't require a sump and won't cause leaks either. You can get all the flow you want without powerheads.

[wooglin]

That is a good point but closed loop does not give you anywhere to hide your skimmer, heater, and whatever other equipment you have.

Closed loop does create a system that is less prone to leakage maybe, I am not sure. There is plumbing involved that can fail.

[cwa46]

Originally posted by wooglin
That is a good point but closed loop does not give you anywhere to hide your skimmer, heater, and whatever other equipment you have.

Closed loop does create a system that is less prone to leakage maybe, I am not sure. There is plumbing involved that can fail.

Everything can fail. But with proper care, a closed loop system is no more prone to leaking they your home plumbing system. They, like a cannister filter, have no overflow or siphon problems.
I am not advocating any particlar setup. Just putting out options, so don't feel so threatened.

[wooglin]

I dont feel threatened, but I am still not sure that a closed loop system is less prone to leaks than a properly plumbed Reef Ready aquarium. A built in overflow on a reefready tank does not flood during power outages, nor does the sump if it is sized and plumbed properly. Pipes could fail, but this could happen with any system that has pipes that move water in your tank.

I do like the idea of closed loop systems on larger tanks. Why fool with a sump when you have plenty of water volume, and plenty of room to hide equipment. The only item you end up having trouble with is a larger skimmer. I dont think you can get a HOB skimmer for a larger tank, not sure.

[cwa46]

Originally posted by wooglin
I dont feel threatened, but I am still not sure that a closed loop system is less prone to leaks than a properly plumbed Reef Ready aquarium. A built in overflow on a reefready tank does not flood during power outages, nor does the sump if it is sized and plumbed properly. Pipes could fail, but this could happen with any system that has pipes that move water in your tank.

I do like the idea of closed loop systems on larger tanks. Why fool with a sump when you have plenty of water volume, and plenty of room to hide equipment. The only item you end up having trouble with is a larger skimmer. I dont think you can get a HOB skimmer for a larger tank, not sure.

There is no doubt, wooglin is the expert! Sorry, didn't mean to block your light!

[MadTownMax]

closed loops are great if you're considering a system with high-flow, running a lot of flow through a sump is hard to do without creating lots of micro bubbles (as I'm finding out myself). It is also more efficient as the pump on the closed loop doesn't have as much head pressure so you're getting more flow out of your equipment.

[wooglin]

MadTownMax do you run a mixed setup with a closed loop for flow and a sump to hide your equipment? If not where did you put your skimmer etc.? Or do you run skimmerless?


CWA, I would like for you to point out where I responded in a way that would indicate that I think I am an expert? In fact I would contend that you are the one who posts as if your an expert, not just in this thread, it seems to be a pattern on all your recent posts. Lets just keep it civil. I never even argued with you, in fact I pointed out that I liked your idea of a closed loop. I simply pointed out that it left no where to house a skimmer or any other equipment.


Wooglins previous response

"That is a good point but closed loop does not give you anywhere to hide your skimmer, heater, and whatever other equipment you have. Closed loop does create a system that is less prone to leakage maybe, I am not sure? There is plumbing involved that can fail."

Another response by Wooglin

"I dont feel threatened, but I am still not sure that a closed loop system is less prone to leaks than a properly plumbed Reef Ready aquarium. A built in overflow on a reefready tank does not flood during power outages, nor does the sump if it is sized and plumbed properly. Pipes could fail, but this could happen with any system that has pipes that move water in your tank. I do like the idea of closed loop systems on larger tanks. Why fool with a sump when you have plenty of water volume, and plenty of room to hide equipment. The only item you end up having trouble with is a larger skimmer. I dont think you can get a HOB skimmer for a larger tank, not sure."

[wooglin]

Oh, by the way CWA, I really hope you can make the next TN Reefers meeting. We are all honestly dying to meet you in person. I have a feeling that your not so abrasive in person. Be sure to come if you can, I think we are going to be fragging an awsome coral.

[MadTownMax]

no closed loop here, just a ampmaster 3000 return, trying to get rid of my micro bubbles, but no luck yet.

[cwa46]

Originally posted by wooglin
Oh, by the way CWA, I really hope you can make the next TN Reefers meeting. We are all honestly dying to meet you in person. I have a feeling that your not so abrasive in person. Be sure to come if you can, I think we are going to be fragging an awsome coral.

I am worse in person as I can't abide fools! You especially won't like me. As you already know, I am putting my home up for sale this fall and moving out of state. All that will remain of my system will be a couple of 20 gal. broodstock tanks, and a sump by next week. I have already shut down my growout tanks, 135 gal and now I am shutting down a 90 gal. So I see no benefit now. A club would have been real helpful 4-6 years ago.

[cwa46]

Originally posted by wooglin
Oh, by the way CWA, I really hope you can make the next TN Reefers meeting. We are all honestly dying to meet you in person. I have a feeling that your not so abrasive in person. Be sure to come if you can, I think we are going to be fragging an awsome coral.

Just keep on wooglin on!

[Sir Knight]

kev-dog1,
There is no fool proof system. But to get this thread back on track I will tell you how I have plumbed my systems for the last 10 years.

1) I always try to get a reef ready tank with built in overflows.

2) For the overflows stand pipe - I use a durso stand pipe
without the top cap. This way if something plugs up the
elbow (1/1/2" to 2") the water will go to the top of the stand
pipe and drain.

3) for the return(s) from the sump - I drill a hold in the bottom of
the 90o where the return comes from the overflow so, if the
power goes out the hole(s) will break the siphon.

4) The sump must be large enough to hold the water that drains
from the tank if the power goes out. For a 75 gallon tank
a 20 to 30 gallon sump should work fine. My sump is 90
gallons over 6' long. I keep my skimmer and my calcium
reactor in it. I have had them leak on me in the past so in they
go. I also use a 5 gallon bucket that is in the sump for
skimmer output because of another accident

5) If you want to add one more safety item you can add a float
switch to your tank. If the water in the tank goes to almost
overflow level it will shut off the return pump or pumps. I had
this on a tank that had a hang on the back overflow. But it
could be used if the stand pipes get clogged

6) The big advantage to closed loops is you don't have any
power heads in the tank which can burn out and possibly kill
the tank. Plus the fact that power heads add a lot of heat to
the tank.

7) I am running a closed loop that has 4 - 3/4" outlets and a
1 1/2" feed . This setup is pushing about 4000 gallons an hour.
Keep in mind I have a 300 gallon tank. I'm also using 2 - 1000
GPH pumps for returns for a total of 6000 GPH of water turn
over. My rule is for SPS's 20 to 30 times per hour. This works for
me.

8) For your return pump if you use an external pump plumbed
with a bulkhead add a 45 elbow to the bulkhead inside the
sump and point the elbow down to the input water so you are
taking water from the bottom of the sump. This will help in
stopping some of the micro bubbles.

9) For carpeted floors I all ways use 3/4" marine grade plywood
under the stand. The reason is if you do get a leak the stain
from the stand will not bleed on to the carpet. Been there
done that. It is a lot easier to tell the wife that I wet the carpet
then telling her I damaged the carpet (stained the carpet with
stain). Even salt water will dry but the stain doesn't come off. I
know this for a fact. When I sold that house I had to have the
carpet dyed. The carpet was only two years old.

Hope this gives you some things to think about and maybe help you a little. :beer:

[reewik]

I would love some help on a closed system for circulation. I understand the concept but have a few questions?

1. Have you plummed this as a hang on or does this originate in the sump? Any pics?

[wooglin]

Originally posted by cwa46
Just keep on wooglin on!


I dont get it?


What are you doing with all your old livestock and equipment?Anything you are selling might be usefull to locals since used local equipment, and livestock are hard to come by.

[rcmike]

Originally posted by cwa46
I am worse in person as I can't abide fools! You especially won't like me. As you already know, I am putting my home up for sale this fall and moving out of state. All that will remain of my system will be a couple of 20 gal. broodstock tanks, and a sump by next week. I have already shut down my growout tanks, 135 gal and now I am shutting down a 90 gal. So I see no benefit now. A club would have been real helpful 4-6 years ago.

Sounds like someone is bitter that a club wasn't started earlier so he could be included. I would have loved to have had a club several years ago also. It would have saved me much money and many headaches. BTW, who are you calling fools?

[cwa46]

Originally posted by rcmike
Sounds like someone is bitter that a club wasn't started earlier so he could be included. I would have loved to have had a club several years ago also. It would have saved me much money and many headaches. BTW, who are you calling fools?

Why would I have to be "bitter" because I had hoped for a reef club in the area? It didn't happen, but I can live with that. But joining now with my system going down and 6-7 months left here makes no sense. Who called anyone a fool?

[rcmike]

Sorry, misread that. I was thinking you were calling the whole reef club fools. It appears you were just talking about Wooglin. (I'll let him worry about that).

On the topic of plumbing. I would definately get a reef ready or drill the tank for an overflow. I have had several incidents with air getting in HOB overflow tubes or algae growing in them and slowing down the flow resulting in an overflow.

[MadTownMax]

Joe Wall,

Thanks for the on-target input, do you have any suggestions on how to reduce bubbles when moving 2400 gph through a 22 gallon sump (sorry kev-dog don't want to hi-jack your thread)? I'm thinking that if I add another sponge it may help the situation, baffles are useless as the 100 X water flow doesn't allow any spots for the bubbles to float up.


unfortunately others can't seem to get over their Egos long enough to try to stay on track.

Could you guys drop it, or just start your own OT thread so that Kev-Dog can get some answers to his questions?

[wooglin]

I agree. After I posted not to let it happen, bamm it happens to me. Sorry....

On the topic of high-flow, browse thru the previous issues of Reefkeeper mag, I think you will find some examples of tanks of the month that use a mixed system with both a sump and a closed loop for flow. Not sure how that works, but I am sure someone has some expertise in this area.

[wooglin]

MadTown max I built a box that I filled with live rock rubble that my water flows into. At the bottom of the box are slots that the water exits thru. So the water has to go thru the live rock rubble bubbles and all before it can get to the sump. The box is located in the sump, and is actually a plastic 2.5 gallon water container like you use in the fridge. Dont think that size would be big enough for 2000GPH but it works in my 20 gallon sump for 1000GPH

[kev-dog1]

Thanks for everyone's input!
I will definitely go with a Reef Ready tank. I've heard too many negatives about hang-on overflows...and since this is a starting over project, why not do it right...hence the reason I am seeking input way in advance so I can wrap my head around what my needs are.
And the closed loop system sounds ideas too for creating lots of flow. I really love to see my polyps and xenia and such swaying in the current. I'm considering a SQWD.

Thanks Joe Wall for the best answers yet. AND for pulling us back into focus.
MadTownMax - no worries about hijacking...all the input and your questions just helps me learn more and think about other things to consider.

Still looking for a diagram that incorporates all these tips. I guess I just understand/learn things better from a picture than reading it as narrative.

Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. I really, really appreciate this resource.

[Sir Knight]

Have you plummed this as a hang on or does this originate in the sump? Any pics?
Yes. closed loops are exactly that. The input water comes directly from the tank, not the sump. I use a over the lip of the tank with elbows to make a "U" with a strainer on the end. I don't drill holes in tanks even though I have an acrylic tank. Just in case I want to sell the tank I don't want holes for the next person to have to deal with. I will try to take a couple of pictures of my closed loop to give you some ideas.

Thanks for the on-target input, do you have any suggestions on how to reduce bubbles when moving 2400 gph through a 22 gallon sump (sorry kev-dog don't want to hi-jack your thread)? I'm thinking that if I add another sponge it may help the situation, baffles are useless as the 100 X water flow doesn't allow any spots for the bubbles to float up.

I have used sponges and it does work, but after a while the sponges get clogged up and are more of a problem reducing intake water to the pump. you will have to replace them and will be cleaning them all the time. Don't put a sponge on the intake to the pump as this reduces the intake water to the pump and can/will cause damage to the pump. I have also used live rock in the sump to reduce micro bubble. This works very will if the sump was an old wet/dry. Place the rock in the wet/dry compartment. Have the over flow water hit the rock first. This will also reduce micro bubbles. Lastly, make sure that all of your intakes to your return pump(s) are air tight. You can also be sucking air thru them causing micro bubbles. Remember sumps are for equipment, refug are for algae,etc, they should be separate items to work correctly in my opinion.

2400 GPH going into a 22 gallon sump tank is way to much. The purpose of the sump in most cases is for equipment. So, for example if your skimmer is in your sump and skimmer only has a 900 GPH pump you only need to have about 1000 GPH of water going into your sump. Remember the overflow will only send as much water to the sump as you return. So even if the overflow can handle 2200 GPH you can use a 1000 GPH pump. To get water movement in a tank the closed loop is the way to go.

:beer:

[MadTownMax]

Fist, thanks for all the help guys, My system was working perfectly for a year, but I decided to do some upgrades (getting larger equipment before I get a larger tank).

I know that this may seem a little confusing, but I'm doing my system this way because I found an ampmaster 3000 for $100, so a closed loop isn't really the solution that I'm looking for.

I already have the drains emptying into a 3" pipe that goes into a Y, with the odd-end sticking up, trying to get the bubbles into the top of the water, which helps a bit. I'll try putting some liverock rubble into that Y section first, with the odd-end pointing down with rubble in it held in with egg crate.

If that doesn't do the trick I'm going to install another baffle in the sump along with some live rock rubble on eggcrate in this new baffle to try to control the bubbles.