New Euro-reef skimmers: You heard it here first! =)

[MAS]

Euro-reef is putting out a new 18" diameter skimmer that will be utilizing either multiple sedra needlewheel pumps or a single large Jacuzzi style high flow low amperage custom needlewheel pump. I was talking to Jeff Macare(owner of ER)the other day and am really excited about the new line of skimmers. SHould be out late spring early summer range. Should be a great product to look forward to for all the large tank owners in the market for a large skimmer.

[discocarp]

What tank sizes are they going to support?

Peter

[MAS]

Well Their CS12-6 is suitable in the 500-1000 gallon range. Going to an 18" chamber of the same height will roughly more than double the reaction chamber size. The pump itself will also need to pump roughly twice as much now also to keep bubble dwell time similiar to the current 12-6 so I would expect it will be good for heavily stocked tanks in the 1000-2000 gallon range roughly in realistic terms.

[discocarp]

Sounds sweet. :)

Peter

[RedEyeReef]

When can we see one?

[MAS]

Not sure, around springtime I believe they will be out. I know I already got one ordered up. Expect the price to be in the $3000-$4000 range. 18" cell cast acrylic tubing is expensive.

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by MAS
Not sure, around springtime I believe they will be out. I know I already got one ordered up. Expect the price to be in the $3000-$4000 range. 18" cell cast acrylic tubing is expensive.

Well, regardless of how expensive, that is one absurd amount of money to pay for a hobbiest"s skimmer. That sounds more geared to a comercial outfit then. I don't know that many, actually any, people that would even fork out the $1500-2000 for a Deltec with all the whistles, even less for twice the money now.

Not being cheap, just being realistic and cost efficient.;)

[MAS]

Youd be surprised how many people will fork out that kind of money. If you got the money to spend $15,000-$30,000 on a large tank of 1-2000 gallons,then a $3000 skimmer isnt going to be out of your price range then. Thats who it will be geared towards. The 18 series isnt meant to be a "hobbyist" skimmer either. In fact Alot of the 12 series skimmers are used by large residential/small commercial applications already.

[rza007]

wow... thats a lot of $$$. Even if they sell a couple of those, the price mark-up will make it worth wile.

:eek2:

[MAS]

Yep, but any skimmer with an 18" diameter chamber or larger is gonna be bucks.

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by MAS
Youd be surprised how many people will fork out that kind of money. If you got the money to spend $15,000-$30,000 on a large tank of 1-2000 gallons,then a $3000 skimmer isnt going to be out of your price range then. Thats who it will be geared towards. The 18 series isnt meant to be a "hobbyist" skimmer either.

MAS:

I think you missed part of my point here. It is not a matter of being able to afford it. You are right in that if you have the moolah to set up a $20-30K tank, then $2-3K is not going to be much of a dent. What I was refering to is that for less than 1/2 that amount you could get a skimmer custom built that would rock your world. Costing a lot is not necessarily better. As a matter of fact, most times it is not. Function has to justify cost in my mind at least.

[MAS]

1/2 price? You show me someone who will make a custom cell cast skimmer(or even PE for that matter) 18" minimum diameter reaction chamber, 84" minimum height for less than a few grand. Professional grade commercial skimmers are a bit different from your basic hobbyist lines. But alot of people who fork out big bucks for large tanks arent going to want a "hobbyist" grade production line skimmers to begin with.

[anthem]

Have to agree with MAS here. I don't know of anyone who makes large chamber acrylic or PE reaction tubes skimmers for less than several grand. . . When you get to tanks that size you need much larger reaction chambers. There is a huge difference in performance as well with large skimmers. Not only do they handle larger volumes, they skim better. For instance, just because a RemoraPro can adequately handle a 50 gallon tank - nit doesn't mean you can put 20 of them together off a large sump and it perform as well as a large 12-18" skimmer.

[dgasmd]

MAS:

I was not refering to the exact same specs like diameter, height, etc, but rather to the skimmer being comparable in performance.

[MAS]

I was not refering to the exact same specs like diameter, height, etc, but rather to the skimmer being comparable in performance. Right, but your not going to get a skimmer that can be compared to in performance if the reaction chamber is tiny in comparison. A 24"-48" tall skimmer with a 6" or 8" reaction chamber for example isnt going to compare with a skimmer twice as tall with at least 10 times(or greater)the capacity of say a 12" or 18" diameter reaction chamber.

[NAGA]

I can tell you that 18" diameter cast acrylic tubing with 1/4" wall and 72" tall is 1200 bucks(just for the tube). With pump mods etc. selling the skimmer for 2500 bucks or so is right on. By the way an equivilant Deltec is over 3500.00.

[Chris Witort]

Why do these skimmers all have round rection chambers? A 12"x 1/4" tube costs $100 per foot! A 12" cube would cost about 10% of that! Why not build tall cubes for the reaction chamber? If you must have a tube what about pvc pipe? They could save a bundle on material costs.

[dgasmd]

I can see why the round tubes would be good for the swirling design skimmers (minority?), but I don't personally see any advantage over square. Anyone???

[MAS]

What shape are bubbles? What shape are large organic waste filled bubbles?

As for making square skimmers, since we now lose the inherant strenth of a true continuous circle we would need to compensate with much thicker acrylic to make a tall reaction chamber that would be able to withstand all the weight and force of the water in the chamber(and in a 12" or 18" reaction chamber there are MANY gallons to deal with), it would actually be more expensive to make a "square tubed" skimmer.

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by MAS
What shape are bubbles? What shape are large organic waste filled bubbles?


I may be wrong here, but I don't see how that has anything to do with their contact time with air.

As for making square skimmers, since we now lose the inherant strenth of a true continuous circle we would need to compensate with much thicker acrylic to make a tall reaction chamber that would be able to withstand all the weight and force of the water in the chamber(and in a 12" or 18" reaction chamber there are MANY gallons to deal with), it would actually be more expensive to make a "square tubed" skimmer.

I am not sure what size skimmer you have in mind when you say this, but I think he was talking about average size skimmers. For those, I don't think it would make much of a difference in thickness. You could easily use 3/8" thick acrylic and make it 12"x12"x48". That would hold 30g. Since you are not going to have an open top and it is rather narrow, I highly doubt you have to apply the same rules for the thickness as you would for a tank that would be 48" tall. I may be worng about this since I am not a professional acrylic worker, but this is based in a little common sense and physics.:D

[MAS]

Bubbles are circular shaped, and a circular riser tube will help accomadate pushing bubbles up the chamber without them breaking, these bubbles can get to well over 6" in diameter(and many random sizes) when they are full of organics, a square chamber will cause bubbles to break down much easier which will hinder skimming. The only time you see skimmers with square chambers are the small hang on units like AquaC's Remora and the CPR units, both of which arent really very impressive in their skimming abilities.

I am not sure what size skimmer you have in mind when you say this, but I think he was talking about average size skimmers. For those, I don't think it would make much of a difference in thickness. You could easily use 3/8" thick acrylic and make it 12"x12"x48". That would hold 30g. Since you are not going to have an open top and it is rather narrow, I highly doubt you have to apply the same rules for the thickness as you would for a tank that would be 48" tall. I may be worng about this since I am not a professional acrylic worker, but this is based in a little common sense and physics.

So you would rather spend $200 on a sheet of 3/8 acrylic and pay an acrylic mfg. an extra 3-4 hours labor building a sealed square chamber vs. spending the same amount of money roughly on a prefabricated 12" cell cast tubing(thats many times stronger)skimmer? Which route do you think is based on "common sense"?

[anthem]

And in answer to a previous poster who asked about PVC. . . I don't know about PVC, but some of the larger skimmers out there do use PE or HDPE for their reaction chambers. It still isn't cheap though.l

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by MAS
Bubbles are circular shaped, and a circular riser tube will help accomadate pushing bubbles up the chamber without them breaking, these bubbles can get to well over 6" in diameter(and many random sizes) when they are full of organics, a square chamber will cause bubbles to break down much easier which will hinder skimming. The only time you see skimmers with square chambers are the small hang on units like AquaC's Remora and the CPR units, both of which arent really very impressive in their skimming abilities.


MAS:

I don't doubt you may be right here. However, this makes still no sense when it comes to the physics it. At least to me it doesn't. Bubbles retain their shape because if the surface tension created at it surface and not by the shape of the vessels they are in. I am willing to learn, so if you can find some reference that will illustrate what I can't see, I will be more than happy to go read it.

dgasmd

[Chris Witort]

I am a little baffled by some of the discussion of shape of reaction chamber verses bubble shape. My understanding of a reaction chamber is: an area that allows long contact time between bubbles and water. The bubbles in a skimmer are so small and there are so many that the shape of the skimmer should make no difference to them. The bubbles slowly rise to the surface carrying organic compounds on the water air interfaces. The longer the rise to the surface the more opertunity to bind organics(= higher effiency). I dissagree with the cost for building a square chamber vs a tube. I can have a 12" square 1/2" thick tube 6' tall made for less than $100.00; 12" round tube $600.00. At 6' tall the pressure exerted on the side would be about .2 atmosphere or around 2.72 lbs per sq. inch at the bottom. I doubt you could see any deflection on a 12" cube 6' tall. I say down with round, and up with squares!

[anthem]

Most are round because of several other factors as well. Most of the large skimmers are all re-circulating. There is a lot less disturbance for re-circulation of reaction chamber in a circular design rather than a square design.

Also, the bubbles are not small. They are generally small to bind to organics at lower levels. When they rise to the top, the bubbles frequently combine to form larger bubbles. Look at any skimmer - the bubbles at the top are much much larger than ones below. Which means, you don't want edges and ceilings to burst said bubbles. Presumably you could build a sloped top(rather than square) to handle this, but it still wouldn't address the recirculating issue.

Hey, people can want a square tube all the want. The fact of the matter is that when you get to those sizes, people are willing to buy performance and cylindrical performance is better than square performance.

[MAS]

Chris: You can have a 6' tall 12" square tube "made" out of 1/2 inch cell cast for less than $100? Care to tell me who sells 1/2 inch thick cell cast sheets for hundreds less than cost and then be willing to make a 6' tall square box out of it? Hell, can you tell me who sells 1/2 inch extruded acrylic even for less than $100 for a 50"x100" sheet?

The bubbles in a skimmer are so small and there are so many that the shape of the skimmer should make no difference to them.the bubbles in the skimmer also start to enlarge and combine at the neck of the skimmer, if the neck is square bubbles will break down much quicker and will cut down skimmer efficiency. Ever blow soap bubbles when you were a kid? Did they give you a square bubble wand or a round one to stick into the water/soap solution bottle? Same idea with skimmers basically.

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by anthem

Also, the bubbles are not small. They are generally small to bind to organics at lower levels. When they rise to the top, the bubbles frequently combine to form larger bubbles. Look at any skimmer - the bubbles at the top are much much larger than ones below. Which means, you don't want edges and ceilings to burst said bubbles. Presumably you could build a sloped top(rather than square) to handle this, but it still wouldn't address the recirculating issue.


Now, that makes more sense. Also, it is esasier in construction since it is much easier to glue 2 joints in a cylinder than it is to glue 5 in a square too. Less likelyhood of leaks as well the less joints you have. I can see for the average Joe at home trying to build one of these it would be so much simpler to do with a cylinder..So, it is not like the square would not work, but rather that it is more difficult and time consuming to make.

Great points.:D

[Diatom2]

Originally posted by anthem
And in answer to a previous poster who asked about PVC. . . I don't know about PVC, but some of the larger skimmers out there do use PE or HDPE for their reaction chambers. It still isn't cheap though.l

18" SDR 35 PVC 12.92/LF = 77.52 for 6'
24" PS 46 PVC 22.59/LF = 135.54 for 6'

18" Corrigated Poly 8.59/LF = 51.54 for 6'
24" Corrigated Poly 13.53/LF = 81.18 for 6'

Inspire anyone for a DYI? :)

[anthem]

The principles of making a larger skimmer aren't that difficult. It's a matter of time and desire. Most people in need of a skimmer that large basically will fork out $3-5K and just be done with it. If you've got a few thousand gallons to setup/worry about - 3-5K is but 10-25% of the equation. . .

I guess its the same at the smaller level as well. There are those who would rather build a 6-8" skimmer rather than pay the $200-$500 for that size skimmer. The majority of the rest of the hobbyists (not even professional) would rather just buy the unit and get it over with.

[Diatom2]

anthem~

You are right and I'm in that group without the tools, time, or skills necessary to build one. But it does open up a market to those like Geo, who if they wanted to, could build (probably on a custom order bases) a perfectly workable and substancially cheaper - all be it ugly - large scale skimmer for what seems (at least to me) a growing large tank market.

Just thinking out loud and filling in some gaps :)

[anthem]

yes, but also at that level they are talking support and maintenance supplies. When you deal with RK2, they can ship you exactly what you need w/o too much of aproblem (outside of the reaction chamber). They also have installation services/design/etc. Most DIY or smaller scale skimmers aren't at that level. Andy@MRC, Jason@AquaC, Mike@PrecisionMarine or any of the other gus aren't at that level yet. . .

[NAGA]

Well I have a acrylic cylinder that can do the job for any monster skimmer. 27" in diameter and 80" in length with a 1" thick wall.

Anybody interested???

[MAS]

Why, are you selling it? Cell cast or extruded?

[NAGA]

It is cell cast..............frankly I have never seen extruded in that diameter. I am selling it because I am not going to use it. it's available for sale and am keeping it that simple.

[MAS]

What are you looking to get for it? Who mfg. the tube? Feel free to PM me.

[NAGA]

MAS,

sent you a PM