Starfire limitations? 8 ft tank

[Greg Hiller]

Okay, I'm thinking about a 8 foot long tank. I understand that Starfire only comes in 1/2" and you must therefore laminate two pieces together for a long tank like a 8 ft tank. Does this really work, or does it end up being cloudy? Are you better off just using standard glass and putting up with the green tint?

[VegasMike]

I have yet to fill mine up with water, but it is very clear when empty.

[Diatom2]

Greg~

It's the height of the tank not the length that determines the need for thicker glass if I recall correctly.

[Greg Hiller]

Height...good point, still I'd bet length comes into play as well. I've also heard tell that the laminates can sometimes cloud over time with exposure to strong light.

[willis]

You will have no problem with the laminate, mine is just dynamite!:D

[David MC Lee]

You may want to look into this glass. Its what I'm going to use on my 900G. 3/4"

[David MC Lee]

Sorry here is the link http://www.depglass.com/dec-lowiron.html

[Greg Hiller]

Thanks for the link. Who is making your 900 G?

[David MC Lee]

I am.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=273138

[Ken Sellick]

I am planning a 120" long x 48" wide x 30" high tank out of 3/4" starphire. 3/4" is the thickest non-laminated starphire that i am aware of. I like overkill so i am framing the tank with 2" x 6" square tubular steel.

[reefmutt223]

My friend has 500 that is 8 ' his glass is starphire and it is laminated, one inch thick, it is very clear. It was made at Inter-American, very nice!!

[Clay]

Originally posted by Greg Hiller
Height...good point, still I'd bet length comes into play as well.

Nope, it's height that matters for thickness.

[wetworx101]

It's both height and width. Otherwise there would be no need for cross-bracing. Otherwise my 33L would only have 1/8" glass like a ten gallon cuz they are both the same height. Otherwise I would build a 20 foot long tank out of 1/8" like a ten gallon if I kept it 12" tall...not. The pressure that water exerts on a piece of glass is not polarized in it's effect on a vertical plane...it exerts it in all directions...up and down, as well as left to right. Now, I will agree if you were to suggest that height has more of an effect on this, as pressure increases with depth, not width, but it's effects are felt in width just as much as height. I can get a 24" cube made out of 1/4" glass. Now, a 120 is 24" tall but needs more than 1/4" glass because that 4 foot wide piece would bust if it were just 1/4".

[Diatom2]

Wet~
You're right it was my error, it's the ratio of length to height that matters.

Here's a link for anyone doing the calcs btw.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/glassthickness.0.html

[Diatom2]

And another

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/l/blcustomtank.htm

[Diatom2]

btw Wet
According to the second chart, you could use the same glass for a 8'x18" high tank as you'd use for a 2'x18" How tall is that 33 long? :D

[anthem]

It's mostly height. After a certain length given a certain height, your going to have cross bracing anyhow. It's to distribute the pressure on the end seams as silicone is only so strong (Construction 1200 is the stuff they usually use on the large tanks).

Starphire IS weaker than regular glass. For instance, on my 10ft tank, one side was only 3/4", whereas the starphie side was 3 x 1/2" laminated glass. Starphire DOES come in thicker plates, but the price is not incrementally higher, I believe its fairly significant. . .

When the tank is empty, you will notice that starphire has less of a green tint, but it isn't that significant that I'd do again. Especially if you're running high halide type of lighting.

[wetworx101]

You know, Greg, I would seriously consider a plexi tank if I were you. You are going to have a hard time finding the thickness of iron-free glass you desire, and when you do you will prolly pay through the nose for it. I was in the "glass is better" club for a long time, having made a 360gallon out of glass as well (then again, I had been keeping large suckermouth cats when I first set it up...and they can chew plexi...so glass was the only way to go). But for very large aquariums, ie ones that are more than say...200gallons. I would say acrylic is a better material. It is clearer, and so when compared with iron-free glass, it will be less$$$. Now, you might say acrylic is more prone to scratches... But, unlike glass, acrylic can have those scratches removed by a pro for say...$60-100. So, every few years, you make a call to the guy you trust to bring out the novus and orbital buffer...and back to new! Cant say the same of glass. It might be more resistant in the first place...but when you do scratch it...thats it. Now, on smaller tanks, I still say glass is better. Smaller tanks have less internal clearance...more prone to hit the sides with that piece of rock, etc. And its just cheaper. Besides, nobody is going to pay $100 for someone to come over and buff out the scratches in their 30gallon...they will just scrap it and buy a new one! Larger tanks have just more space as well...I mean you should have two to three times the front to back space as in a smaller one...plenty of room to move in with rocks without hitting the front glass.
The plexi s alot lighter, can prolly be made for a bundle less, and is the clearest thing you can get really. Standard sizes are 4x8 sheets, so 8' should be right on. Be sure the acrylic is cast, not extruded. Cast is much better for bonding and durability. You can also get abrasion resistant varieties. These are a little harder for the aquarium mfg to use (harder to prep for bonding), but their surfaces are superheated and sealed, much like how tempered glass is made, so that scratching it is almost as hard as with glass. I believe AR types can still be buffed later on as well (might want to check on that though). Just my .02

[nreefer]

Anthem,
Are you positive about starphire being weaker?
I have ordered a 400 gal. starphire tank but only went that route so I could have the "best". But I am lighting it with 250Watt DE Ushio bulbs so maybe regular glass would be good enough. Any thoughts?

[anthem]

Yes, starphire is definitely weaker than glass with iron present(normal glass). It's no contest with tempered.

Glass vs Acrylic - very tough debate in the large tank space. For weight, acrylic tanks are easier/lighter to move into place. After that, its a non-issue. The weight of the tank vs whats inside (sand/water) is almost negligible.. . .

In terms of scratches, thats the big question - dunno. I still go with glass. Mainly because its just too easy to scratch acrylic still. With a large tank, you run into possibilities of others doing tank maintenance which means you really want glass rather than acrylic. Now that being said, there are some interesting developments in the acrylic space. There is a acrylic out there that is much harder and is being considered for use in tanks. That might solve the largest drawback with acrylic if its true. There are also some people who laminate a thin sheet of glass to acrylic to get the hardness of glass but overall an acrylic tank. So, there are a lot of possibilities out there now and coming out.

[wetworx101]

Low Iron Glass is not as durable as regular glass for a few reasons. The iron that is added to the silica when in molten form alllows glass to have a lower melting point. Iron also has more ductability and maliability than silica. This means glass can be poured, formed, and worked with while the iron is still cooling. Take this away and it becomes very hard to work with. Glass without iron is very rigid, and needs to be kept at very high temps while it is either formed or spun into flat sheets. Not only this, but when cooled, there is no iron to allow the glass some elasticity. You know how glass can bow a little and not break? Not so with low-iron glass. If it bends, it breaks. And when it breaks, it shatters, as the process used to form it (shaping and drawing the glass at very high temps) is very similar to the tempering process, and leaves it as such. It is actually stronger than regular glass in this respect since it is very much like tempered...but its brittle nature offsets it's harder nature and makes it weaker overall. Starphire glass is much harder to work with for this reason, as it is almost impossible to drill, and very hard to cut. A while ago I tried to find a glass bender that would work with starphire to make a starphire via-aqua-like tank...until I realized what I was asking for was almost impossible. There would be no way for a person to bend glass that brittle without returning the whole piece to basic molten form almost.


Anthem, I am interested in the laminate idea, never heard of it. I know of laminated glass and laminated plexi, but combined? That seems a good idea, but wouldnt the flexible nature of the acrylic mean that under aquarium use, since the acrylic would bend more than the glass, the glass would be subject to cracking more...this could be offset by making the plexi less flexible....ie thicker...and nullifying the benefit? Just wondering.

Hey, acrylic does scratch easier, but hey, you can always remove the scratches...not so with glass.

[nreefer]

So if you were doing a 400 gal tank, 96 X 30 X 30 room divider that you wanted for the next 20 years what would you get? Starphire Glass or Regular Glass?

[Zacrifice]

NReefer, altho, everyone makes very good and valid points, I feel I should mention that even tho it may be more brittle, it is also thicker, it may not be drillable but I am thinking you are only having the viewing panels in starfire so thats a mute point, it make be unworkable (IE bending) but its a flat panel.

Go with starfire, you wont be disapointed, and with care (just like what you would do with a normal glass tank) it will last just as long as a normal glass tank

I don't mean to step on everyones toes, however there are some things that just aren't worth considering the strength on starfire yes may be more brittle, however, its also thicker, and I have yet to hear of a star fire glass tank being broken with just normal use

[wetworx101]

thicker means more $$$, and as of right now...3/4" is the thickest available from them...so you have to look to other more expensive names...$$$...or laminates...$$$ for bigger tanks like 8' long (that might need 1" glass). And the jury is still out on laminated anyways...have been seal issues in the past.

I have a 360, planted tank. 96x24x36. I built it myself with glass over 10 years ago. At the time glass was the only possibility cuz I knew I would have plecos that would eat the acrylic, and starphire wasnt worth it for a planted tank. This is also an issue with some sea critters like snails and urchins. They can really mess up an acrylic tank.

I didnt bother with starphire...as even though it has hanging halides over it, everything in it is green anyways...so a little more green tint didnt matter. As far as scratches, the tank is just too hard to scratch. There is so much room front to back for clearance...not like in a smaller tank where rocks can span the whole width of the tank. No rock has ever gone within 8" of the front glass. The only way I can see scratching this tank would be from improper algae scraping...

For a reef. Well, if you plan on having some critter that can eat into acrylic...go with glass. Otherwise, acrylic is a fine material to use. Lighter, stronger, and clearer than glass for a lot less than iron-free. For larger tanks, it is easy (and worth it unlike with smaller tanks) to just call up the guy with the novus and orbital buffer to take out the scratches for $50-100 every few years. With glass...scratches are permanent.

[Greg Hiller]

Thanks for all the info folks. It's been a while since I looked to see if anyone had replied to the thread.

Having had an acrylic tank and had TONS of scratches from coraline algae I will not go back that way. FWIW, the tank also partially melted and then began to split from the top when I put halides over it. Why bother anyhow since large custom glass tanks are not that expensive (heavy, but not that expensive). Glad to hear there is 3/4" starfire available. Is that thickness good enough for a 96 long x 36 front to back x 31 inch high? I'm only interested in a single pane of starfire in the front.

[Diatom2]

Greg~
3/4" glass will give you a safety factor of about 2.5 if you can live with that it should work for you.