critter blacklist?

[manderx]

is there a list anywhere that has corals and fish that should be avoided for ethical reasons? like clown triggers since they are always caught with cyanide, and corals that are being overcollected, and of course those critters that have no success record?

[MarkS]

1.) Morrish idols
2.) Flame Scalops
3.) Goniopora
4.) Cleaner Wrasses

[manderx]

that's a start, but i'm looking for a comprehensive published list that is maintained by a conservation group or something like that.

i dug around MAC and Reef-Check but didn't find anything.

[danellis06460]

Why goniopora ? I almost bought some from the LFS this week.

Originally posted by MarkS
1.) Morrish idols
2.) Flame Scalops
3.) Goniopora
4.) Cleaner Wrasses

[MiddletonMark]

Why don't you do a search on Gonipora?

Miserable track record for most people. There are the rare exceptions ... but the most common experience is to have one live 3 to 12 months but end up dead.

--
Don't know of any list ... but beyond agreeing with the above, I'd add:

1.) Morrish idols
2.) Flame Scalops
3.) Goniopora
4.) Cleaner Wrasses
5.) Dendronepthea

I know some Butterfly fish varieties probably should be added onto this list ... just not sure which ones here at work [without all my reference material].

Some anemones may belong on this list IMO ... there ARE people who should be given the chance to try them - but I see a fair amount of some varieties come thru LFS and know they're doomed.

[knowse]

amda (http://www.amdareef.com) clink on marinelife information and then ecolist.

Gives a rating on how hard they are to keep.

[Scuba_Dave]

I recd a Flame scallop on a mushroom rock, it was in the guys tank for months & he didn't even know it.
It was underneath, totally hidden. I may not have known, but was letting water drain from rock before adding, and the scallop started to "clap", startled me at 1st.
Its been a couple weeks now, still alive. I feed cyclopeze (not directly), other then that it filter feeds

[MarkS]

1.) Morrish idols
2.) Flame Scalops
3.) Goniopora
4.) Cleaner Wrasses
5.) Dendronepthea
6.) Most anemones (except for BTA's)
7.) Stonefish a.k.a. Rockfish (Deadly!)
8.) Blue Ring Octopus (Deadly!)

[frog_toad_99]

please move anemones closer to the top- agree with all 8 maybe throw in most sharks, alas the poor nurse sharks out there in 75's

[MarkS]

Originally posted by frog_toad_99
please move anemones closer to the top- agree with all 8 maybe throw in most sharks, alas the poor nurse sharks out there in 75's

I don't think there can ever be an order to this type of list. It more like "If it's on the list, don't even bother".

[frog_toad_99]

Obviously? A blacklist is simply that, a blacklist! - you make the list and its trouble! My anemone comment was more in jest and the fact that I'm so sick of people defending why they have them, these ppl that continue to buy Condy's need to GET A CLUE!

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by knowse
amda (http://www.amdareef.com) clink on marinelife information and then ecolist.

Gives a rating on how hard they are to keep.
Nice Link, thanks.

[Trumpet12]

Sadly, some of the things on this "critter blacklist" are still for sale.:(

[GreshamH]

is there a list anywhere that has corals and fish that should be avoided for ethical reasons?

If its for ethical reasons, then all that can't be sustainably collected, is unethical, ie. slow growing wild LPS.

[fishome25]

feather stars, most sea slugs, obligate coral feeders

[FunkieReefJunkie]

The closest thing to a black list I could remember and refound is The Classic Reef Trio And More (http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_frontiers/) by Randy Donowitz. Fish to be avoided, fish left to experienced hobbyist, invertebrates to be avoided and so on.

[mejiggery]

i noticed your comment about gonapora.
i agree they are quite hard to keep, maybe you can tell me, am i just lucky?? i find all they need is to be regulary fed. i give mine a spray of mysis shrimp, so in that context yes they need alot of care but so does sun coral which also needs regualar feeding but thats not in yr list. i have both and both are doing fine the gonapora did receed alot when i first purchaced it but now its regained all that was lost and some. i also know someone whos had a flame scollop just over a year now, this is also healthy.
i know what you guys are saying, but can there ever actually be a list?
maybe we just need to read more about what we are getting so we can care for them better. i know i should read more about things before i buy them.
what i would like to add to your list if we are to try make one is horseshoe crabs has anyone kept one longer than 6 months ??

[GreshamH]

So a few successes override the vast majority of deaths? FWIT, both Goniapora and Tubestrea litter the ocean floor. Over collection of these isn't the issue. The issue is almost all die in captivity. Sure, some thive in a few aquariums, even breed, but does that make them an over all successful aquarium habitant because a handful of people have had success with them?

You ask about horseshoe crabs, I've had them in my system at work for 2 years, the even made the facility move. I don't feel my success with them warrants a over all success for the hobby/trade. I don't even feel its a success as I don't know why they lived (or why they have remained fairly small). Many, many, many people try both goniapora and tubestrea with a similiar care regime as you with out success. I've watched hobbyists try SO hard to keep them alive, its not even funny.

[fishome25]

also remember there are different species of goniopora, some do better than others.

[mejiggery]

i`m glad to here you`ve managed to keep horseshoe crabs. in the uk almost every store has them at the minuite and i know a lot that have bought them, but they have only lasted a few months :-(
having thought about this more
a list of some description would be cool not just so people are`nt wasting there money and having too watch these poor things die, but if it could be distributed around enough and people actually took notice of it, retailers would have to stop buying them in.
it is devestating to watch a coral or invert to die and not knowing what to do for the best

[the harlequin]

Why anenome's a lot of people succesfully maintain these creatures. They are no way in the same class as dendro's or goniopora. They are more difficult than your basic fish or coral but they aren't impossible. Also not all clown trigger fish are caught with cyanide, if that were the case no-one would be able to keep them alive however there are many people out there with them. Maybe ones from phillipenes and indonesia may have been caught with cyanide but most fish from there are.

[Algae Blenny]

I know some Butterfly fish varieties probably should be added onto this list ... just not sure which ones here at work [without all my reference material].

Here are some Hawaiian ones that should be avoided according to the Concientious Marine Aquarist:

Chaetodon fremblii, Bluestripe Butterflyfish

Chaetodon lienolatus, Lined Butterflyfish

Chaetodon orbatussimus, Ornate Butterfly

Chaetodon lunulatus, Pacific Red-fin or Oval Butterflyfish

Chaetodon trifascialis, Chevron or V-lined Butterflyfish

Most of them are for feeding reasons, others are rare.

There is a very, very long list on all the Butterflys that should not be kept but I can't type them all.

[PRC]

manderx, not sure why no one has recommended this (maybe they did and I missed it?), but there are several great books available that do an excellent job of pointing out bad choices for aquarium livestock. Two that I would personally recommend are Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" and Eric Borneman's "Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry and Natural History". The title of Bob's book makes his intent obvious, and Eric actually includes a section on each Genus of coral that covers potential impact from collection. I think both of these books should be required reading for any aspiring reef aquarist.

[sdelliott]

If you go to this site and do a bit of research, it will give you all the speicies that are banned, contorlled or endangered, Aquatic and Land both. It's a good place to gleen information as to what may be in the LFS that shouldnt.

http://www.cites.org/

[GreshamH]

FYI, all coral and live rock are CITES appendixe II, controlled. If its on CITES banned list, we can't import it.

[MaryHM]

Also not all clown trigger fish are caught with cyanide, if that were the case no-one would be able to keep them alive however there are many people out there with them. Maybe ones from phillipenes and indonesia may have been caught with cyanide but most fish from there are.

I would say that 99.99% of all clown triggers under 4" come from the Philippines/Indonesia. To say that no one can keep cyanide caught fish alive is absolutely INCORRECT. Many fish survive cyanide exposure and live long lives in captivity. You can have a healthy cyanide caught fish, but you can not have a healthy reef where cyanide fishing occurs.

[Bastianelli]

Originally posted by MarkS
1.) Morrish idols
2.) Flame Scalops
3.) Goniopora
4.) Cleaner Wrasses
5.) Dendronepthea
6.) Most anemones (except for BTA's)
7.) Stonefish a.k.a. Rockfish (Deadly!)
8.) Blue Ring Octopus (Deadly!)

Just wondering why not Falme Scalops? I have two. One for about 8months now, and the other around 6mo. They are really healthy it seems. Or are they just over harvested? Also why not anemones? Another overharvested? I have 2 anemones also, not sure what kinds sorry. Not bubble tips though. I've had them for 2yrs now. Both of them came from my friends 40g where he had them for a few years. The one has been anywhere from the size of a penny to the size of a dinner plate. And the other one maintains the same constant size.

[michael_holmes_04]

Don't want to be a downer but my black list would only contain 1 thing:
Under Educated Reefers.

It is really hard to say this should be on a list because it has a high mortaility rate. Goldfish have a high mortality rate but that is only because people don't care for them properly. Another reason people who try hard to keep things alive sometimes fail is that they try to hard. If I was a fish or coral or anything I wouldn't someone proding at me constantly and everytime I show the least bit of change totaly change the tank peramiters. Isn't one of the biggest fish killers unstableness? True some things die more often than others but that can very well be attributed to the fact that more people are fimilar with them and find them attractive. Thus they are more wanting of them so more people buy them and thus more uneducated people kill them. Just my five or six cents.

[sdelliott]

I agree with the uneducated reef enthusiast part to some extent, however if you go to the various sites as listed above as well as many others, the point is not particularly the death via instability of a particular animal persay due to changing perameters within the captive enviornment, but more to the point the way the animal is collected, the impact it has on the reef eco-system, where the animal is collected from etc. This said part of our responsibilty is knowing where something comes from, and being responsible enough to know that even if we have the experience to keep it, doing so may only further an already shrinking and growing instabilty in the worlds reefs and oceans. Many of these do not breed in captive anvironments and therefore being caught in the wild is the only way one can be had.

Lets also not forget that a number of items are "considered " a restricted speicies, and regardless of the aformentioned, these items are restricted for a very specific reason. Be it mortality rate in the wild, an ever shrinking geopgraphic region where they can breed and flourish, etc. Fish, corals, inverts that are somewhat rare or approaching endagered in the wild have little to no business in the vast majortiy of home based reefs or aquariums. By purchasing these animals regardless of their beauty we only contribute to the problem as opposed to working towards resolution via conservation.

As for the constant prodding, well, I suppose some truth to that is point taken. However given that reefkeeping is a mixture of chemistry, biology and a number of other things scientific, those of us who consider ourselves responsible are constantly striving to create an envioronment of stabilty and one which our aquatic life can flourish, and in the process share this information with others in hope of furthering a mutual passion and cause.

So I suppose I am in agreement with you largley, however I think the resposible reef keeper has a much deeper resposibilty than simple mortality rates and statistics as in most books, and certainly more so than one is apt to acquire at the local fish store.

[michael_holmes_04]

I agree that much care should be taken with the way fish are taken from the wild. If it is destroying things in the process or the species is rare in the wild or any thing of the sort it should be a no no. Although my view on this is that it isn't so much the species it's the collection. So I stick to my former coments with the adding of 2 more things to my blacklist cyanide collection and over captures. Things should be kept to have a minimal effect on nature. More should be done on propigation. If it can be bred in captivity government should restrict the numbers imported more and more each year until they are all captive bred on the markets. Also more should be done to find out breeding perameters for species that aren't bred succesfully in captive. Finally warnings should be included on cyanide caught speciments. Kinda like tuna. It should be us going out of our way to make sure we don't purchase things with such warnings. That way collectors are forced to find more ecosafe collection methods. Tuna fishers did. So I encourage you guys to trade your frags that way less people buy wild speciments. I encourage you to spend the extra money to buy captive bred inverts and fish. Finally I encourage you to pressure your legislators to make collectors and pet stores include cyanide warnings then I encourage you guys to avoid those things like the plauqe. Now I step down from my soap box.

[wsm #59]

I agree with a lot of what is being said. I want to bring up two points. The first is with Goniopora, if some one is being able to keep this alive and it is thriving and growing and they are able to propagate it and then they can pass on both the knowledge to keep it and the propagated coral. Next when it comes to rare or nearly endangered fish. Now say someone buys a pair of A. McCulloch's Clownfish(impossible to get now that there is a ban on importing them from Lord Howe Island) and gets them to breed and is able to raise the fry then in a sense by taking some from the wild there is a possibility of saving more in the long run. Many years ago ALL fish were taken from the ocean. Through pioneers many fish species now can be purchased that are Captive Breed. So to some it up through many failures some have succeded. So what i am saying is that through trial and error is the only way we are going to be able to enjoy some of the more rare or hard to keep specimens and to have some success with aquaculturing
Just my opinion
Whit

[DgenR8]

The problem with Goniopora specifically, is that even the people that have success keeping them, have no idea why they have success.
They haven't uncovered a secret, they just have dumb luck. How many thousands of Gonis have died in captivity so that a couple dozen could survive?
There are some things that should be studied in real research facilities, not hobbyists' living rooms to find out more about them.

[michael_holmes_04]

All very agreeable. With a few and I mean very few exceptions I would say hobbiest are the best route. In a lab they will intentionaly kill things to say well that is a no no. Hobbiest will stop what they are doing when it is apparent it is a no no and try something else.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by michael_holmes_04

Hobbiest will stop what they are doing when it is apparent it is a no no and try something else.

I don't agree here Mike. I think the number of hobbyists that have killed numerous Gonis is staggering. Too many hobbyists are willing to think the animal died because there was something wrong with the animal, not the care it was given.

[michael_holmes_04]

That's true. Hard to argue with. I guess when I say hobbiest I think of those of us who are dedicated not the mere pet owners who do what is needed as long as it isn't to inconvient. So the caring hobbiest is better than the lab because like I said labs kill things just to prove you can't do something.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by michael_holmes_04
labs kill things just to prove you can't do something.
It takes money to run a lab. I wasn't aware that there were labs out there killing animals just to prove theories. In general, I thought the scientists who might want to "prove you can't do something" are the ones being paid with grants to either improve/protect the environment, or to ultimately make a big profit for their sponsors. What you describe doesn't seem very environmentally friendly; perhapse killing things to see what you can't do is more profitable than I realized.

In terms of aquarium animals, do you have some examples where "labs kill things just to prove you can't do something", and the goal was not to ultimately help the general population of either those animals or us?

IMO, if a Goniopora is going to die in captivity, being in a lab isn't any worse than being in an aquarium. I can't imagine the Goni thinking, "I wish I was dying in a hobbiest's aquarium, instead". Maby the lab techs can enjoy them, too; plus, they get a little data.

[michael_holmes_04]

No I don't have examples. It is called the scientific method though. Yes ultimatley they are meaning to help the enviroment. You see they have to have a control to prove a hypothesis. So if there are light requirement they say ok we think 17 watts are needed per gallon to keep these so well put some in 10 watts/pg 5 watts/pg 0 watts/pg obviously one of those are going to die. Then they'll say well saline is a factor so they will go from highest possible concentration in nature to freshwater. Then feeding none to lots form phytoplankton to steak. They don't change the peramiters when it's obvious something isn't working they let it be until it's either proven to do well or dead. It's not the corals thinking at all. Coral isn't cabable of understanding that.

[Shoestring Reefer]

How is any of that any worse than something dying in a home aquarium because of the same problems (feeding, lighting, water parameters)? At least they are trying to do some long-term good with the animal's life, rather than keep it (and kill it) because it "looks pretty".

IMO, this hobby has a horrable track record as far as communicating the captive care requirements of the animals we keep. This hobby is decades old, but many people don't have a clue about some of the basic, published, readily-available information.

[GreshamH]

Kinda like tuna

Kinda like they did with tuna in the EAST PACIFIC(only). The west pacific signed no such accord, and still practice un-dolphin safe netting methods. Dolphin safe is a scam people, most our tuna comes from Thailand and the likes. Check your Chicken of the Sea, it's from Thailand.

[GreshamH]

Now say someone buys a pair of A. McCulloch's Clownfish(impossible to get now that there is a ban on importing them from Lord Howe Island) and gets them to breed and is able to raise the fry then in a sense by taking some from the wild there is a possibility of saving more in the long run.

You sure about that? I still see them on my export lists.

[wsm #59]

really from what i have read over in the clownfish forum that they are next to impossible to get. How often do you see them and how much do they usually cost?

[PRC]

I think DgenR8 nailed it on this one. I really find it hard to believe that the average hobbiest is going to have much success in areas that have thwarted experts for years.
Yes, there are a very few people out there who work very hard to determine ways of supporting difficult species. These things should be left to those people willing to invest the time and resources to establish real scientific evidence on how to sustain these animals. Anyone who is really serious about this should be willing and capable of properly obtaining specimens which should not be available to the general public. How many hobbiests do you think are capable of properly designing and performing an experiment? Without proper design and control, any success doesn't really provide much useful information. Like DgenR8 says, it's pretty much dumb luck in the hands of most hobbiests.
I could be wrong here, but I don't believe there are any professional labs out there trying to determine how to keep ornamental aquatics alive? I'd have to guess that the very small amount of significant work that is actually being done in this area is being done by people like Eric Borneman and Anthony Calfo and I'm rather certain that these folks are not intentionally killing any animals.
Most labs killing animals are probably doing toxicology testing and the like. You can be pretty certain they're not using goniopora for that. People I know doing toxicology on saltwater organisms generally use copepods and aiptasia.
You want safe tuna? Catch it yourself!

[wsm #59]

I just thought of something Does any one know how long a goniopora lives in the wild?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by michael_holmes_04
If it can be bred in captivity government should restrict the numbers imported more and more each year until they are all captive bred on the markets. Also more should be done to find out breeding perameters for species that aren't bred succesfully in captive.


Michael, while I agree with your sentiment, I feel there are many many species that just shouldn't be available at the LFS. By no means should we continue to try to keep these species in closed systems to figure out how to raise them in captivity. In many cases these species do just fine in nature, so leave them there, don't try to figure out the problems so we can keep them in our insignificant aquariums.

I fully support captive propegation, however it's not like people that frag things and captively raise fish are conservationists. We're just cutting down on the destrutive nature of our hobby.

Absolutely we should continue to figure out how to captively raise species that we are already do well with in captivity. But at this stage in the hobby it's time to just give up on certain species and leave them be in nature. So we can't keep Goniopora, who cares, there are hundreds of other species of coral that we have proven we can have great success with. Are we so egotistical and greedy as hobbyists to keep killing a species in our aquariums in hopes of eventually figuring out what the difficulty was, or being able to brag about your 3 year old Goniopora? In many cases it seems to be true, and that's what makes some experienced hobbyists just as bad a begginers.

Edit: Here's a link to a list I made some years ago that I posted up before I saw this thread, it certainly relates to this topic and I hope some of you find it useful.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323406

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by FunkieReefJunkie
The closest thing to a black list I could remember and refound is The Classic Reef Trio And More (http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_frontiers/) by Randy Donowitz. Fish to be avoided, fish left to experienced hobbyist, invertebrates to be avoided and so on.


Heh, I missed this post my first time through the thread. Actually, that was my list that Randy used, he used it exactly as I posted it on here. Though I really wanted to work on it some more before he used it, Randy wanted to use it in corporation with his upcomming article on the reef trio. I was able to get the list from the article a couple months ago, but it seems the link is now dead. I guess it's a good thing I copied and pasted it onto my comp...

If I remember correctly Randy told people to print out the list and take it to the LFS when purchasing new specimens. He also made a comment about showing it to the LFS owner, and to not expect a welcome reaction, or something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing by memory, but that should give you the basic gist of what he said about my list.

[mkirda]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Michael, while I agree with your sentiment, I feel there are many many species that just shouldn't be available at the LFS. By no means should we continue to try to keep these species in closed systems to figure out how to raise them in captivity. In many cases these species do just fine in nature, so leave them there, don't try to figure out the problems so we can keep them in our insignificant aquariums.

Peter,

I am going to disagree with you somewhat here.

I support the idea of an Unsuitable Species List, and I don't like the idea that just any LFS can order and sell things that are truly unsuitable to impulse buyers.
However, instead of an outright ban on the species, I would support making the species much more difficult to get.
You want Goniopora, we'll order you some Goniopora straight from the collector. You pay up front and wait for it to arrive. The store makes sure you have some idea what you are doing. No more seeing it in the tank and buying it on impulse.
This allows advanced aquarists to pursue the secrets to keeping these sorts of species, while cutting down on the waste of species doomed to die quickly.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

[PRC]

Mike,
That would be a really great way of addressing the issue, but unfortunately I think we all know it doesn't work. If it were that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion because all the LFS's in the world would be knowledgable and conscientious and wouldn't stock difficult to keep animals.
I understand the concern people have with regulations and laws restricting the aquarium industry and collection practices, but unfortunately nothing else will work. People are not self policing, most will do whatever they can to make a buck. Without restrictions, laws and regulations preventing people from collecting and selling these animals, what will stop them? There own conscience? We already know that dosen't work.
Better yet, you want a Goniopora? OK develop a research proposal and submit it for a permit. If it's deemed unique and worthwhile then you're allowed to aquire Goniopora with which you can perform real scientific studies that can then be added to the literature.
I'd be willing to bet that most hobbiests "researching" how to keep difficult animals alive don't even have basic information about the animals that would be critical to true research. Information such as the specific origin of the animal and the specific environment from which they were taken could make all the difference in an animals survivability. What kind of stress did the animal undergo in shipping? Ideally, all of these things would be controlled in a true scientific study. Unfortunately, very few hobbiests have the means to do this.