Start over?

[Reelfish]

I have a 125 tank with 125lbs+- LR and some large fish. The rock was given to me by a friend who was moving. I have had the tank up and running for about a year and have been fighting a "Hair Algae" problem with no avail. I have taken out most of the sand as the algae seemed to grow on some parts of it. I have scrubbed the algae off, vacuumed it off, changed the lamps only for it to grow back. The water tests OK with 0 Nitrites,2.5 Nitrates, 8.4PH,2.2 Alk, .01 Phosphates and the fish are doing greate. I think maybe the rock has been treated with something before I got it or just has been taken over by the algae. I am just looking for some opinions maybe only to verify what I already Know.
Bob

[ChrisRD]

Have you seen this recent thread? Might give you some ideas...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281073

[Reelfish]

Hi Chris thank you for responding and yes I have read this thread but most does not pertain to my situation. I don't question the maintanance of the tank or the filtration system and I use RO/DI water. The algae I am calling Hair algae - looks like the hair that was on the trolls when I was a kid. The location is predominantly on the top of the rocks. The tank has three urchins but most critters I introduce are appetizers for my fish. I vacumn the algae or scrub it off and it starts to return in about a week or two. I want to eventually turn it into a reef tank but to add any LR or LS before I get the algae under control it seems futile.
Bob

[ChrisRD]

If it takes two weeks for it to return, it doesn't sound like your nutrient levels are all that bad - maybe more a matter of finding something that eats it. Of course it would also help to further reduce the nutrient that's feeding it (mostly phosphates)...

That said, it's tough to offer any useful advice with so little information. Could you describe the setup a bit more? For example...

Do you use kalkwasser for top-off?
What kind of skimmer do you run on that system?
Do you grow any macros in the sump or a fuge to help with nutrient export?
What sorts of herbivores (beside those urchins) do you have in the tank?
Have you tried any Conchs or Mexican Turbo snails (Adam Soyer had the turbos in stock a few weeks ago BTW - he may still have some)? The turbos really seem to love hair algae...
What's left for substrate in this tank (type, depth)?
Was there formerly a DSB in the tank before you removed some of the sand?
Do you periodically blow detritus out of the rocks with a turkey baster or powerhead?
How much flow do you have in the tank?
What do you feed and how often?
What's the bioload like in the system (fish, inverts, etc.)?
Have you tried a phosphate reducing compound like Phosban or Rowaphos (temporary effect, but sometimes this can kill it off if it's just hanging-on)

Of course, if it's a fish-only setup you can also reduce the lighting period, but you've probably already tried that...

[Reelfish]

I top off with RO/DI water as this tank is a FOWLR. The skimmer is a ETSS-600 w/Iwakki 45 and a 55 for the return.The substrate was about 1 inch and now is almost removed. I tried Inverts and clean up crews but the fish eat them. I have altered the lighting, added and removed powerheads,Phosphate removers although my phasphates are .01. I feed 1 time a day frozen,flake,pellet or seaweed. The bio-load is 3 urchins and 1 Blonde Naso tang, 1 Hippo tang, 1 Harlequin tusk and a Majestic angle all large. I also have 2 other tanks that do not have the problem and this is why I suspect the rock.
Bob

[ChrisRD]

Hmmm... doesn't sound bad so far. Before you take any extreme measures maybe try the following:

You could try straining the frozen food before feeding so you're not adding the nutrient rich juices to the tank water. Also, since there's no corals you can try reducing the photoperiod or even shocking it with a couple of days of no light.

I would also try using kalkwasser for top-off. I've done this on FOWLRs before and it definitely seems to help with algae control IME. You'll also notice a big increase in coralline growth...

I would also try storming the rocks every few days with a powerhead to help loosen any detritus that may have accumulated in the rock structure. Now that the tank is bare bottom, it will be easy to syphon this crud out of the tank regularly too.

Also, keeping flow really high (again, easier with no sandbed) helps to keep detritus in suspension so your skimmer can grab it. Speaking of which - you could also try adjusting your skimmer for a wetter skimmate.

Conchs and Mexican Turbo snails can really mow this stuff down. Too bad you have that tusk in there - now I see the problem...LOL. Adam Soyer had some Mexican Turbos that were about half dollar size not to long ago - would the tusk eat something that large?

Anyway, you've probably thought of a lot of this stuff already - just throwing it out there...

[Reelfish]

Hi Chris
I have tried many things but not all you have suggested. I only use cube frozen food, thaw it in tank water and then drop pieces in no fluid. I have altered the lighting to the extent of no light for a week. I will try again to increase the water flow now that most of the sand is out.I also will look into the use of Kalkwasser although I have never used the product. Thank you for all you suggestions and for taking the time to try and help.
Bob

[ChrisRD]

You're welcome Bob - just trying to give you some ideas.:)

BTW, kalkwasser = calcium hydroxide (aka, pickling lime - as in, the stuff in the grocery store).

[Reelfish]

Chris you have helped me. I will keep up the fight because of some of your ideas. I also neglected to mention that I originally had the filtration set up as a wet/dry with Bio balls until I got the LR. I had changed most except I left the Bio balls in the sump. I now have removed them and am hoping that helps. OOOps
Bob
Do you realy use pickling lime?

[ChrisRD]

I use a DIY kalkreactor for all my top-off (check out the calcium reactor group buy thread for a pic). The kalkreactor uses a Maxijet 400 to periodically mix-up the kalkwasser. I have heard that pickling lime is slightly coarser than some of the aquarium brand kalkwassers and will eat-up the impellers on the mixing powerheads. For this reason, I've avoided trying it (I use ESV brand Kalkwasser mix in the reactor with no problems). If I was mixing/adding kalk manually I would probably just use pickling lime (much cheaper)...

[Tomzpc]

Bob,

Kalkwasser is German for "Lime Water"...aka pickling lime. Ed at the Fish Barn will try to tell you that it isn't the same purity wise etc blah blah blah, but it's the exact same stuff. Hundreds of reefers here on RC have been using grocery store bought pickling lime in their tanks for year. Reef supply companies like ESV or Kent just call it kalkwasser and sell it for five times as much.

[ChrisRD]

I think the only difference is the consistency of the powder. I've heard several people on the boards complain about eating-up impellers on Maxijets in DIY kalkreactors using pickling lime, then switching out to ESV (not sure about other brands) after changing the impeller and not having any more impeller wear problems. Other than that issue, I would say calcium hydroxide = calcium hydroxide no matter what company packages it...;)

[Reelfish]

Thanks guys I will consider the use of pickling lime or KW. I want to wait to see the difference the removal of the bio-balls make. How do you mix this and do you use it on water changes as well?

[Tomzpc]

Originally posted by Reelfish
Thanks guys I will consider the use of pickling lime or KW. I want to wait to see the difference the removal of the bio-balls make. How do you mix this and do you use it on water changes as well?

Hi Bob,

Keep in mind that just because your phosphates and nitrates are reading close to or at zero doesn't mean that they aren't being produced in decent quantities in your tank. You have so much hair algae in there now so that nutrients could get tied up quickly in the algae. Were the bioballs in a wet dry or completely submerged in the sump? If the latter then I doubt removing them will make much difference but it couldn't hurt. How much does the skimmer pull? With the fish you have in there I'd expect a skimmer to pull quite a bit of dark icky stuff. I'd also put as much water movement in the tank as possible. It shouldn't bother those big fish at all and it will help the live rock to do it's work.

As for limewater, you want to add it slowly with your makeup water, preferrably as a IV like drip. You'll want to check your alkalinity and ph very often at first to determine a good level. Start with smaller amounts, say maybe a teaspoon of kalk mixed in with 2 gallons of RODI. Adjust upward until your alkalinity is where you want it and seems stable. You can stop using any other buffers or 2-part solutions at this point as well. Kalk alone will do the trick for your tank. Let the mixed kalk sit covered for several hours to a day so that it settles, then draw off limewater for top off from the upper portion of the mixture. You want to avoid using the stuff at bottom of the mix.

Check out Randy Holmes Farley's chemistry forum here on RC and do a search in that forum for "dose kalk". You'll get lots of hits and quite a few of them are good threads started by folks looking to use kalk for the first time.

[Reelfish]

Thanks guys I use ESV-B IONIC now and have a supply but will look into Kalk. I did have the Bio-balls in a bucket that was suspended above the sump and more in the sump. I have scrubbed the algae off the rock and it seems to have slowed the growth. I hope I'm on the road to the solution as I would like to put the new LR from the group order in that tank. Thanks again for your help
Bob