Finding Nemo has a bad effect?

[newbieneedshelp]

My friend was never really interested in my aquarium. But after he saw finding nemo, he refuses to even look at it. He thinks it's a terrible thing. Now I'm kinda thinking he's right :( I've got a 29 gallon glass aquarium, 5 fish (2 that hide under the rock unless I feed). 1 Sebae clown, 1 Royal Gramma, and 1 Bi-Color Blenny, along with the two monofin dartfish. I mean, it seemed fine before he seemed so obstinate to even looking at it. I want to get a bigger tank, but I don't have nearly enough money.

Any thoughts? Does every reef keeper have this phase? ^_^ I'm being optimistic.

-Robin

[thedogofwar]

You feel this way because fish aren't meant to be in a box, it just does something to them, right?

I was there for a minute but after I weighed it all out, I was fine again. I think theres a few questions you need to ask yourself. Questions about your skillz and experience.

Besides your husbandry,

theres a very good chance that your fish are tank raised, never even seen the ocean, the box is all they know.

In the end, theres 1 thing that ends any debate for me:

I provide a cleaner, safer, more stress free enviroment than the LFS, and prob just as good as most consumers. Do I feel guilty about that? Absolutely not.

[staticfishmonger]

good point. the fish will most likely be better off with you then at the fish store or even worse in the hands of an irresponsible aquariest. think of it as your saving the fish from the horrors of the overcrowded and undercared for LFS displays. you have the ability to provide five star living conditions for your beautiful fishy guests. and of course the 125 gallon suite is much better than the 29 gallon motel. but like anyone you have to start somewhere and I would recomend upgrading as soon as your financially capable.

[sharpy98]

I keep fish/coral because I like them and think they are cool. I know they would be happier in the ocean but then I could not enjoy them everyday. I think we should fess up and be honest. We keep these animals because we enjoy them and are out for our own intrests. The "I am putting them in a better home than others our a LFS" does not hold water with me. Were this your true intent making them as happy as you can would you not buy them and throw them back in the ocean where they can be free and happy? I keep them because I like them end of story. I know they will die in my care a some point and I will do my best to be sure it was of old age or other natural causes but I think the I just wanna give them a better home thing is a cop out and not really ture.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Sharpy,
In reality, your right. It's just that some people want to reason that they are helping out the fish or coral. Yes they may be giving them a better home but the reason you bought it was because you liked the way it looked. That's why I buy the things I do for my tank. I have however also used my tank as a learning tool for my kids and anyone else who shows an interest in it by teaching them about the animals I keep. It's amasing how many people think that corals are plants or their all aninimies (sp). My daughter was raised around fish tanks, both fresh and salt, and knows what is what in the tank. She even got sad when we had to trade in some of our fish because we were moving and didn't have the room for the big tank. I think it brings a sense of responsibility and caring into the household by having the tanks and using them to teach our kids with.

[gskidmor]

I agree with sharpy, I buy them because I like them and like to display them, just like my girlfriend likes to buy jewelry and display it too. If you're having a moral dilema newbieneedshelp, think of it this way: If you have ever watched one of those discovery channel shows, practically everything eats small fish in the ocean (even some types of snails!!), just think of yourself as the bigger fish consuming the small fish, but instead of chewing them up as food, you simply put them in a box in your living room.

In the end though, don't fool yourself into thinking your're doing something grandiose like education since I've found one thing applies to 90+% of Americans: out of sight, out of mind (I say that to all the people who claim education since I've seen several strangers go into exhibits like Boston's aquarium or the one in Baltimore, only to leave an throw coins/garbage right into the bay next to the aquarium). We're all simply consumers, if you can't live with that, maybe the hobby doesn't fit your needs.

[newbieneedshelp]

wow... heh... didn't expect all that. lol

I'm kinda looking at all of it, but as one at the same time. My reason for doing it is because it would be awesome to try and keep fish and corals, that was my original reason. Over time, it's gone from get, get, get, to make happier, happier, happier. I try to befriend the animals and put them in a stress free environment, and not 'cause I'd like to see them be lazy. Because I feel bad. I'm just one of those guilt ridden people, and feel guilty over even the littlest things. But as I've thought about what all of you said, and just kinda put it together, I feel better. I keep them because they are pretty. Though I am learning an incredible amount of information, and I see new things that amaze and surprise me everyday. I buy these creatures because of their beauty. Even though I end up doing my best to keep them happy, and befriend them. It's fun to watch as they grow and change from extremely shy fish, to fish that our always out. It's fun to watch the fish interact with the corals.

In other words, all that all of you said, but at the same time. My reasons are because I like/want them. But the other stuff that we get out of it too.

Thanks! ^_^

-Robin

[drtherc]

This may sound controversial, but do we really think that fish are "happier" being in the ocean? I don't think they have emotions. All they know is that they "are". Would they be better off, i.e. healthier, in the ocean? Oh, sure they would, at least in a couple of ways...better water, better food (who really likes to eat frozen foods???). However, if you weigh that against the fact that everything is a prey for something else, up the food chain to man, I don't know, are they really better off?

That being said, I keep fish for my own pleasure, but I feel, as with any pet, that we owe it to them to take care of them to the best of our ability. It does have the added benefit of being educational to my family. One grandson noticed my old blue tang who had HLLE, and, at 6 years old, found some information that a cleaner shrimp might clean the dead flesh off of the blue tang. Pretty good research for a 6 year old. But, by responsibly taking care of the fish we have, rather than thinking that, should a fish die, we can just get another, I think I do my part. And I don't directly pollute the ocean, but let's face it-everything on earth started in the ocean, and will eventually get back into it.

[xxaquanutxx]

They say that fish have a short memory span.. so when ever they swim around the bend in the tank they probably think that they have never been there before.. Well hey.. just look at Dorey from Finding Nemo

[newbieneedshelp]

hahahaah. Here's something kinda funny. One of my friends that I know through music, and not reef tanks, swears that I am dori. I find that amusing, considering how much I'm obsessed with reef tanks. ^_^

-Robin

[Gano1]

Having gone into marine fish/corals for about 3 months now, I have a great sense of guilt in me. Never in my life have I killed so many lives before. Yes, it's lives that we are talking about here. Keeping marine fish is not like keeping a cat or a dog where the success rate is almost approaching 99%. In marine aquarium, there are so many parameters or variables that we have to keep monitoring, failing anyone of which will most likely result in the death of innocent fish/corals. Sometimes, such variables are either still at the experimenting stage (e.g., now that we are told the dip method is no more effective in getting rid of ich) or they are not easy for the ordinary laymen to master all at one time. Inadequate research so far done on certtain aspect of it is also to be blamed.

Even more disgusting is the way I learned later about how these fishes are caught in ocean using cyanide in some countries. Fishes in close vicinity to the chemical are killed instantly leaving those anaesthesised with liver or other organ damage only to die in our hands later. Fishes that are almost certainly difficult to keep in aquarium are still been sold. Since marine fish was introduced into homes many years ago (even before enough research has been done to keep them alive), just how many have died worldwide is of anyone's guess.

Whether we like it or not, keeping marine fish/corals is purely to satisfy our own interest first (primary reason) but often we would like to look for flimsy excuses to justify our action. Talking about providing 5 star hotel for the fish/coral or getting education out of it serve mainly as consolation to our guilt. They are all done at the expense of the fish/corals. Just ask ourselves this simple question; if we were fish, how many of us would like to be imprisoned in a cubical glass with lots of uncertainties or rather be absolutely free in a most balanced and beautiful natural environment that seems to have no boundary.

I beg your pardon if I have offended anyone. But these are facts and I have to be honest to myself. Sometimes, I feel regretted for having gone into marine fish myself (not so much corals, because they are still doing very well so far) and equate myself as being a murderer.

No doubt, I feel guilty !!!

[Shoestring Reefer]

newbieneedshelp:

If you already own the fish, then the damage is done, environmentally and to your particular fish/animals. You CAN'T let them go at this point. Just try to give them the best home you can.

As far as "providing a good home/life" then, my take it this:

If the fish and animals can reproduce, and you can raise the offspring, then you have created a good home for them. If you can only keep one of a species because of size or temperment (or cost), or they won't mate in a tank, or they will mate but the fry can't be raised, then you have NOT made a good home for them.

Anemonies, clownfish, jawfish, mandarines, and many types of corals will reproduce in a reef tank. With work, the young will live and grow. Those are the types I plan on keeping.

In my freshwater days, the biggest thrill I had was when my second-generation mollies reproduced in my tank; in other words, the fish I bought eventually had grand-children in my tank (unless they got eaten). Of course, it's impossible to stop mollies from breeding; but then again, that's why I bought them. It gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling to know I could support their complete life cycle.

[Mariner]

Are all of the guilt ridden aquarists here vegetarians?
It seems to me that if humans can use animals to fulfill their desire for food with no guilt, we should also be able to use them to fulfill our aesthetic needs with no guilt.
I know we don't get to discuss religion on RC, but for those who enjoy quotes from the Bible, here's one to think about: "God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea..." (Genesis 1:28).
FWIW,
Mariner

[Shoestring Reefer]

Mariner,

That's been brought up several times by many people, in religous and non-religous context; I posted about how much I love seafood. Shrimp coctail, lobster tails, scallops, fried shrimp. I love the fried seafood combo at the weathervane.

That doesn't mean I'll give poor treatment to my pets. Fish are pets; one reefer's wife was arrested for poisining his tank. She did far less damage than a commercial fishing boat does in 10 seconds, but pet abuse is pet abuse. People who abuse other people often abused animals in the past-that's a statistical fact.

I don't need to be a vegetarian to think someone shouldn't abuse or neglect their pets. Pets are pets, and how you treat them IS a reflection of your character. Where you draw the line is part of what makes you who you are.

There are reefers who set out to make the best environment they can for their pets, and are proud of doing so. There aren't many people who brag about how poor they can let conditions for their pets get.

There are many moral standards for us to follow, both social and religous. I consider many of them a good basis for my life, but I won't limit myself to them, especially to any one set. Some people may believe that anything is ok because it has not been specifically condemmed by specific standards, but just remember that the same logic then applies to everyone else, and their standards and beliefes may put you and your loved ones at the disadvantage.

[Mariner]

Shoestring,
I agree totally. :) "A righteous man regards the life of his animal" (Proverbs 12:10).
My point is that the lives of these animals/pets are in our hands. Whether we kill one intentionally to eat or unintentially trying to keep it for its beauty, it's a dead fish nonetheless. It seems to me that "guilt" is not appropriate in either case, and for the same reason.
JMO,
Mariner

[DgenR8]

Let's be carefull here guys. This thread has potential to be a good one, I'd really hate to have to shut it down for taking a religious turn.
Mariner, I can understand your feelings, and beliefs, but I have rules to enforce.

[Mariner]

Thanks Larry. I appreciate the warning. Hope I didn't break any rules -- just trying to give reasons for a viewpoint on an ethical question.

To turn the thread back to it's original direction, I have heard a couple of young people express a very negative view of reefkeeping and reefkeepers after seeing Finding Nemo. As much as we've worried about people wanting to keep clownfish irresponsibly because of the movie, I wonder if the greater concern isn't an incipient and growing hostility toward reefkeeping.
FWIW,
Mariner

[sharpy98]

On a positive note Reefers could hold the salvation of wild reefs. With all the destruction of reefs in the wild, someday reefers may be the ones who are called upon to help form new reefs with frags from our tanks.

[Shoestring Reefer]

It's interesting-

After Nemo came out, there was a spike in saltwater tank interest, from people who never really considered a SW tank before, and had no clue what they were getting into.

There are also people who now think reefkeeping is wrong based on the movie-many of those people probably never cared one way or the other.

The net effect of "Finding Nemo" on the SW hobby may be that it attracted un-informed people who bought basically on impulse, while discouraging the concensious people who would take better care of the animals.

People who are against reefing is not totally bad, because atleast their opinion is based on concern for the animals. People who jump into the hobby because they saw a movie IS bad, and what's even worse is the potential shift in the type of "average" hobbyist getting into it.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
It's interesting-

After Nemo came out, there was a spike in saltwater tank interest, from people who never really considered a SW tank before, and had no clue what they were getting into.

There are also people who now think reefkeeping is wrong based on the movie-many of those people probably never cared one way or the other.

The net effect of "Finding Nemo" on the SW hobby may be that it attracted un-informed people who bought basically on impulse, while discouraging the conciensious people who would take better care of the animals.

People who are against reefing is not totally bad, because atleast their opinion is based on concern for the animals. People who jump into the hobby because they saw a movie IS bad, and what's even worse is the potential shift in the type of "average" hobbyist getting into it.

[Mariner]

The net effect of "Finding Nemo" on the SW hobby may be that it attracted un-informed people who bought basically on impulse, while discouraging the concensious people who would take better care of the animals
Now THAT'S IRONIC! And very likely correct :eek1:
Mariner

[Trumpet12]

You can set up an entire tank with tank-raised organisms and cultured live rock. This makes a very very small impact on the ocean.

Lots of clownfish, gobies, blennies, dottybacks, basslets, and some assorted other fish (including Hippo Tangs) are now being tank-raised!

[TGImages]

Trumpet12, that's exactly what I'm researching right now. I would like to setup a reef tank (in fact I've wanted to for close to 15 years now) but my goal is to have minimal if not zero impact on the wilderness. I've limited myself to considering tank bred/raised fish and frag corals, etc.

Live sand and live rock are the two items that I haven't determined what to do yet. Ideally I could get some live sand from a few fellow reefers and use that to seed my future tank. Maybe a pound or two each from 2-3 sources would be enough to get it started??? I definitely would like Live Rock and TBS with their Aqua Culturing sounds promising but it still involves creatures in the wild being put in captivity. If I could find a source for tank raised live rock I think that would be my vendor of choice. (anyone know of any sources like this?) TBS ships their rock in water so from source to tank most of the life should survive. Many of the other rock vendors specifically talk about unpacking the rock and scraping off everything that has died enroute. That bothers me. If my "need" to have something will result in the death of animals then I'm not sure I "need" it anymore.

And: No, I'm not a vegetarian. Yes, I know the original breeding stock came from the wild.

Nemo isn't the first "problem" as a result of a movie. 101 Dalmations resulted in lots of Dalmation puppies being bought/adopted, then as people decided they weren't worth the hassle (i.e. care and feeding) the rescue shelters saw a spike in dalmations being brought in. I even heard there was a chiuaua (sp?) craze after the TacoBell commercials. I believe that movies/shows/etc. have a responsibility to encourage people NOT to run out and get whatever was shown on the screen.

(OK, done with my preeching).

-Gary

[drtherc]

I don't understand how "Finding Nemo", the Taco Bell commercial, or 101 Dalmatians "encourage" or "discourage" people to obtain these pets. Sure, they're cute, and because of that, it's understandable to inspire someone to get into that particular hobby. What the real problem is, is that we live in an instant society. How many of us that are fans of the TV show "24" would like to see Jack Bauer interrogate Saddam Hussein? Or how many wish that the president in "West Wing" was real, because he solves crises so quickly? It's because we're such a short-attention-span society. If people understood the consequences of buying a dalmatian, marine fish, or spaghetti worm for that matter, understood what's required to really care for these pets, before getting into the hobby (read all of this as "Research"), many would not get in. The problem is that we in the US have become irresponsible in our approach to many things.

[TGImages]

David, well said.

I probably should have extrapolated my comments a little more but it looks like you hit the direction I was going in anyway. :)

-G

[Mariner]

If my "need" to have something will result in the death of animals then I'm not sure I "need" it anymore.

Hmmm. Well that opens pandora's aquarium. Virtually everything we use as humans involves the death of some animals. Even the plants and vegetables we grow for food and clothing require us to kill billions of organisms to obtain consumables in the amount humans need. Just think of how many boll weavils have been murdered so you could wear cotton underwear. :lol: Or how many dogs, deer, 'possums and squirrels have been taken out by our "need" to drive cars.
I am sensitive to the wasteful or unnecessary loss of any life, even plant life. But the useful loss of life is another matter. And by "useful" I mean used for some purpose by humanity. No matter what philosophical or religious train you're riding, the issue ultimately is the place of humanity in this world. Is it dominance, seeking oneness with, alteration, cultivation? No matter which road you take, our lives will consume many other lives.
JMO,
Mariner

[Gano1]

There was a full page article by the United Nation that I read recently making a recommendation or rather a plea to marine aquarists to boycott those traders who caught their fish by using the cyanide method. In it, it was also stressed that many of the reef ecosystems in the world have been permanently damaged or
became unsustainable as a result of the flourishing trade worldwide. Such are the impacts that have been created by irresponsible people. Please do not get me wrong. I am not discouraging people from going into this hobby. It's just that sometimes it can be a fairly depressing and frustrated experience in not only losing your fish but the things that happened behind the scene. And we are part of it that have contributed UNKNOWINGLY to the occurence of this undesirable happenings.

Most of my fish that died were clownfish (Nemo type) bought in three separate batches. Some of them just refused to eat. When this was related to the pet shop, at least they were honest enough to tell me that a lot of their imported fish were caught by the cyanide method and he further added on to say that it all depends on my luck if I do get some healthy ones. I stopped going to that shop. This is where my problem lies not so much of the chemistry of water.

You may be wondering perhaps I didn't do my things right to my aquarium from the very beginning. Please trust me, with the amount of scientific knowledge and training that I had over the years in biochemistry and microbiology, I have tackled projects 100 times more difficult than the marine aquarium. FYI, I propagated my own bacteria and got my tank cycled (in terms of NH3, NO2, NO3) in less than 3 weeks. I have a full range of the test kits. I bought a book on reef and read those related websites before I began. Still, I have the ich problem. I suppose everyone does too. But as I go along, I learn more of the secrets to success and they don't come all at one time. Hopefully I'll be there soon just like you. Knowing the teory is one thing and gaining the actual practical experience is another.

Enclosed herewith is a picture of my 3 months old aquarium tank(without fish at the moment). All the fish have been quarantined for ich treatment.
Wishing all marine aquarists in this website :

* A MERRY X'MAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR *

[Gano1]

Shoestring Reefer,

Please allow me to clarify two things that you said, I quote :

1. "The net effect of "Finding Nemo" on the SW hobby may be that it attracted un-informed people who bought basically on impulse, while discouraging the concensious people who would take better care of the animals".

2. "...and what's even worse is the potential shift in the type of "average" hobbyist getting into it".

-------------------------------------------------

Well, what you said is very likely to be true but it certainly does not apply in my case. FYI, I have not really seen the movie "Finding Nemo" but catching glimpse of it while my kids were watching it. I thought that was for kids because I don't watch cartoon anymore.

Secondly, I don't think I am qualified to be classified as "average" or "un-informed" hobbyist based on what I have already said above and the number of years of my scientific training (9 years) and research work (another 12 years) that I had. I have published a good number of scientific papers in the world most prestigious and renowned Series and Journals (such as Methods in Enzymology, Biochemical Journal, just to name a few). Ha, ha... there you have it. In addition, I have pets at home such as dog, birds, rabbits, and a fresh water aquarium (discus fish) that was most perfectly run for more than 6 years now. Do I need to go on? LOL !

I have only been in marine aquarium for less than 3 months. Give me a bit more time and I'll be just like you.

Cheerio and Best Wishes for the coming New Year!

[Kevk]

Gano, is that a gonapora on the left hand side of your tank? I hope not, 90% of those die within the first year in the hands of experienced reefers.

[Dave A]

Well isn't it just like us humans to think we know what's best for all living creatures. The fact is as humans we are on the top of the food chain as well as being the most intelligent. As humans we are going to do what humans do and treat all other living things as we see fit, good or bad.
We are always going to keep pets of one kind or another, whether finned, feathered, or mans best friend. I thinks it's best to accept this and strive to treat what tickles our fancy with as high a level of humane treatment as possible.
In a perfect world all living creatures would be much better off without us, but of course this world is far from perfect and as the keepers of this planet we must struggle every day to accept what we do to it. So sit back and enjoy your critters, I know I will. It's not easy being at the top........is it?

Dave

[Sloth]

Originally posted by newbieneedshelp
My friend was never really interested in my aquarium. But after he saw finding nemo, he refuses to even look at it. He thinks it's a terrible thing. Now I'm kinda thinking he's right :( I've got a 29 gallon glass aquarium, 5 fish (2 that hide under the rock unless I feed). 1 Sebae clown, 1 Royal Gramma, and 1 Bi-Color Blenny, along with the two monofin dartfish. I mean, it seemed fine before he seemed so obstinate to even looking at it. I want to get a bigger tank, but I don't have nearly enough money.

Any thoughts? Does every reef keeper have this phase? ^_^ I'm being optimistic.

-Robin
Is your friend 7 years old? Its a cartoon with little fishies that cry. Give me a break.

They also show a toilet flushing directly into the ocean. Are you going to stop flushing the toliet too?

ITS A CARTOON

[Dave A]

Originally posted by Sloth
Is your friend 7 years old? Its a cartoon with little fishies that cry. Give me a break.

They also show a toilet flushing directly into the ocean. Are you going to stop flushing the toliet too?

ITS A CARTOON

:lol: :lol: :lol: Good point!

Dave

[newbieneedshelp]

hahahahahah ^_^ Excellent!! That was good!

Actually he's 16, like me, but that's okay. Cause that's hilarious! ^_^

-Robin

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Gano1

Well, what you said is very likely to be true but it certainly does not apply in my case.


OK, I was responding to the original post. I'm not sure if you thought I was or not, but wasn't singling you out. I don't think think I mentioned you in any posts.

Originally posted by Gano1

Secondly, I don't think I am qualified to be classified as "average" or "un-informed" hobbyist based on what I have already said above and the number of years of my scientific training (9 years) and research work (another 12 years) that I had. I have published a good number of scientific papers in the world most prestigious and renowned Series and Journals (such as Methods in Enzymology, Biochemical Journal, just to name a few). Ha, ha... there you have it. In addition, I have pets at home such as dog, birds, rabbits, and a fresh water aquarium (discus fish) that was most perfectly run for more than 6 years now. Do I need to go on? LOL !


I never tried discus- I understand breeding and raising them can be challenging and rewarding. Did you try, and if so, any luck? I stuck with mollies-you can hardly stop them from breeding, maintenance-free young, and I was really in it for the plants, anyway. Nothing elaborate, but pretty.

Originally posted by Gano1

I have only been in marine aquarium for less than 3 months. Give me a bit more time and I'll be just like you.

Take a look at my signature. We've been at it for about the same amount of time. I was just here berore I started reefing, that's all.

Seriously, if you think I came across as singling you out (I get that impression, based on yur post) I really didn't intend that, just a mis communication.

[Shoestring Reefer]

My 3-year old REALLY likes the "mad" smiley faces, so this is for her:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Ok, on we go.

[Xanareef]

This tread is extremely interesting, and I'm rather impressed with the civility demonstrated by all parties through the course of this discussion.

In my very humble opinion, I think that the aesthetic fish and coral trade will continue, regardless of whether it is considered right or wrong. The best thing that I can do is educate anyone who wishes to get into this hobby, so they don't make unethical and cruel decisions just to populate their glass boxes. I don't know everything about this hobby, but I'm learning more every day.

Hopefully with help of experienced reef keepers, and information sites like reef central, new reef keepers will be better armed with knowledgeand research, to use against irresponsible sales people.

JMHO,

Alexis

[Gano1]

It has been fairly frustrating not being able to post for the past few days. I wonder what's wrong. My enquiries to the webmaster have received no reply so far.

Pertaining to what we have been discussing on the ethical issue of marine fish/coral keeping, I thought the following piece of information from webmaster@reefcentral.com would be relevant if you all are interested.

[The International Marine Aquarium Conference (IMAC) will be held in Chicago June 4, 5 and 6. Check out the new website, www.theimac.org and you’ll see that they already have 16 speakers lined up with more to come.

The theme of the conference will be “Aquaculture, Responsible Collecting and Captive Breeding: The Right Way to Go!� There will also be a Frag Swap during the conference! And, if you have never attended a conference like this before, you can get a preview at their website. They have streaming videos of portions of Eric Borneman’s, Dr. Ron Shimek’s, Julian Sprung’s and Richard Harker’s presentations this year.]


Shoestring Reefer,

Your clarifications are well taken. Of course, I know you didn 't single me out as you are only making a general comment. And as for me, I am only trying to make a clarification to delineate myself from that category of "average"and "uninformed" hobbyist. No hard feeling at all. As a matter of fact, I have requested the webmaster to delete off the message directed to you after I posted it. I thought it wasn't nice to put up something like that to show off oneself. Apparently, my request was not entertained. Sorry, if it has caused some uneasiness to you.

Yes, I did breeding and raising discus for a couple of years. That was ages ago but not now.

It's New Year's Eve today! Have * a Happy and Prosperous New Year *

[cwegescheide]

I know that we are talking about fish on this thread but I recently found out that I have a coral that was basically wiped out (Palau Greentree) from el-nino and there is an effort to re-introduce them into the waters of Palau. I am kindof proud of the fact that I am donating a frag of mine to go back to the ocean. Not all is bad. I would like to think that my fish have it made.

Besides that, they don't have some a-hole boss asking some rediculous requests from them!!!:D

[newbieneedshelp]

Wow!! That's sooo cool! Youa re actually helping to bring back corals to the wild, kinda like those people who are reintroducing endangered animals into the wild. Congratulations!

-Robin

[Shoestring Reefer]

Gano1-
Just being here separates you from the "average uninformed" hobbyist. All is good.


cwegescheide-
Any details on the project? What organizations, location (in the ocean) etc? That would be really cool.

[aaronc]

I can think of all kinds of justifications for having a reef tank. But mostly it boils down to. I do not have the time or money to visit the ocean and scuba dive as often as I like. So i bought a little piece of it and I keep it in my house. I take care of my reef as well as I can, just as I would my own child. Those were my original reasons. Now that I have had the reef for quite a while, I enjoy learning about the chemistry in the tank and the requirements of my corals. I am also happy to know that if someday our oceans become polluted to the point that some corals are extinct, I may be able to help repopulate the ocean. But again mostly, I LOVE THE REEF and want it in my house.

Just my 2 cents,

Aaron

[Ravenreefman]

Wow my wife and I both felt guilty big time and I allready had a maron clown pair.

However even before I knew about or even thought about reefkeeping I was allready aware of the dying depleting reefs systems on OUR earth.

I take my responsibilty of reef keeping as highly sacred task I have not intention of ever droping my tank in fact I intend to find a responsible family member to carry on my reef for if not family it will be someone.

When I frag I try to take my stuff to my local fish club so other members will not be buying stuff direct via a live ocean reef. I consider it also my duty progate and spread out captive raised corals either for profit or gifts.

Thanks for the rant.

R.

[henry62]

for all those that feel bad about having fish and corals ..
as soon as you can go buy all the fish and corals you can , catch all the fish and corals in your tanks , and dump them in the drain,,
because as stated in finding nemo ,,

(ALL DRAINS LEAD TO THE OCEAN)..

Sorry couldnt resist..
personally I have them because I really enjoy having a small part of the ocean in my living room...

[chrisk77]

finding nemo has introduced many new people to the hobby... I dont think that there is anything wrong with that.;)

[Shakyamuni]

Wow. Talk about opening Pandora's Box...

Presuming conscientious organism selection and diligent approach to caretaking, I think the more salient moral issues derive from (a) the means by which they are harvested, (b) the impact of such harvesting on the larger systems of which they are a part (and really, in the macro sense, where does this end anyway?) and (c) the undeniably self-indulgent application of resources---financial, energy for running the systems, etc---in support of the pasttime instead of more overtly laudable altruistic and/or humanitarian undertakings.

Speaking as someone who regularly does overseas medical relief work, I know with absolute certainty that people in developed countries apply more of their resources to recreation and entertainment than they do to humanitarian undertakings, and without a second thought to boot, but this fact alone isn't reasonable cause for individual guilt complexes. Obviously, once we agree to start down the road to judging what "better" things we could spend our time and money on than that which we actually do...well, you can see that there would be absolutely no end to the process. To me, this line of thinking is inherently flawed unless we admit the right (and necessity) of setting individual limits based on our own motives and understanding of the issues at stake.

We all have to draw the line somewhere. I know that I can't save the world, and that I needn't die trying. I do what I can with what I have, and accept whatever karma comes my way from "it" all. Presuming that I stay with this hobby and that perhaps my children do as well, I will do what I can to promote responsible patterns of behavior, harvesting, etc, remembering all the while that the aquarium hobby, far from being the biggest offender in the process of ecosystem destruction, may in fact have a major role to play in conservation mindfulness and perhaps even the re-invigoration of many of the individual microsystems already lost or seemingly doomed.

Just my unsolicited two cents. We can't save all of the starfish stranded on the beach, but that doesn't mean that the difference we do manage to make to those that we do manage to throw back is meaningless or inconsequential, especially from the standpoint of the few that are saved by our cosmically tiny but nonetheless palpable actions !

[newbieneedshelp]

I have that story cut out ^_^ About the boy and the starfish. You definately have the right idea.... I think :)

-Robin

[SLOANMAN]

bump

[GreshamH]

Most of my fish that died were clownfish (Nemo type) bought in three separate batches. Some of them just refused to eat. When this was related to the pet shop, at least they were honest enough to tell me that a lot of their imported fish were caught by the cyanide method and he further added on to say that it all depends on my luck if I do get some healthy ones. I stopped going to that shop. This is where my problem lies not so much of the chemistry of water.

Clownfish aren't a target cyanide fish, they're easier the pie to catch. They hole up in they're host and wait to be collected, usually. The problem you had, was starvation from the COC (chain of custody). After 2 - 3 weeks in the field not eating and possiably another 2 -3 weeks before you get it of still not eating, the fish is "set-up" to die. I'm amazed they gave you "cyanide collected" as an answer to starvation. Shows how uninformed they are on this subject. If they're that uniformed, you may want to look for another LFS who's a little more on top of it and does not distribute false information.

FWIT, cyanide is used on fish that take cover in the coral, not open water schooling fish, sand dwellers or anenome hosting clowns. The largest target species are angels ands certain tangs.

[Melissa123]

Imo, what about toy story. Are people against throwing away toys also? Any one making decisions by animated movies need to grow their own brain. Btw, guess what pixar got to make this movie in the studio? A FISH TANK

[PRC]

Unfortunately I'd have to imagine that the net effect of "Finding Nemo" was probably pretty negative as far as ethical reefkeeping practices go. While most adults don't make decisions based on cartoons many do make decisions based on the demands of their children. It's just a guess but I'd have to imagine that it was a minority of children that came out of that movie wanting to ban wild fish collection. More likely, I'd think, that most of them came out wanting a Nemo of their own. I can't help but imagine that this led to a significant increase in impulse buying of marine fish, a bad thing by any standard. I've seen threads on this site from people inquiring about replicating the Nemo cast right down to the Moorish Idol. Luckily they were immediately and mercilessly informed of the foolishness of their plans. Unfortunately those were only the people who bothered to check first.
I believe that reefkeeping can be done in a very responsible and ethical manner and that it can be done very irresponsibly and unethically as well. Where the line is drawn is a very personal matter. Certainly aquaculture is an excellent start to responsible reefkeeping. However, I'm not certain that some fish aren't better off in captivity under the right circumstances. It's impossible for anyone to say for sure, but I'd have to imagine that most small prey species with small, aquarium scale, natural ranges may well be "happier" in captivity than in the wild. I can't say whether fish experience the same feelings as humans or not but I think it's dificult to argue that they don't experience fear or stress. I'd have to imagine that the primary source of stress for most small fish is fear of predators. For a fish whose normal natural range doesn't exceed that of the aquarium by a large margin, I think it's a pretty tough call to say whether they're "happier" safe and well fed in the aquarium or free and in constant fear of being eaten in the wild.
Everyone has their own reason for keeping a reef. I personally enjoy learning about the creatures in my system and I don't know of a better way to do so than to have them in my living room. I'm lucky enough to live somewhere where I can dive on coral reefs most anytime I want, however, it can't compare with having access to the same reef environment in my living room 24 hours a day.
I don't understand the philosophy of "if you eat fish then what does it matter if you kill them to eat them or to look at them". I personally don't eat animals, but I certainly can't condemn others for doing so. Animals eat other animals, I think that's nature, I happen to have a choice in the matter and I choose not to. I do think it is unethical to kill things (or to allow them to die from lack of knowledge or effort) for reasons other than food or sustenance.
In our efforts as reefkeepers there is no doubt that some animals will perish in our care. I have to believe though, that in the care of a conscientious and knowledgeable aquarist most animals would fare at least as well if not better in captivity than in the wild.
-Paul

[Shoestring Reefer]

There have been a few comments, both here and on other "Nemo" threads, suggesting that people don't make decisions based on cartoons; or, people who do are of below-average intelligence.

Do a search on Bugs Bunny WWII Propoganda . It's just one of the many examples of how it is EXPECTED, based on past experience and human nature, that the average person will be swayed by cartoons. Commercials (cartoon and live-action) are run on TV and in print because it is EXPECTED, based on past experience and human nature, that the average person will be swayed by what they see on TV.

What I find hard to believe is that "Finding Nemo" would NOT have an impact.

[minireeferz]

if you want a fishtank you should educate your self befor you jump into it. if you no how to keep fish/corals alive then go for it!

[mikenegue]

I know I'm jumping on this thread a bit late (I just found it), but it's been an interesting read. My wife has, by virtue of my 2-year-old-daughter's interest, watched "Finding Nemo" over half a dozen times. Last night, we brought home two true perculas (Marlin, Nemo) and a yellow tang (Bubbles). As I was slowly acclimating them to our 60 Gallon FOWLR, she started praying that God would protect the fish that first night in the tank -- that they wouldn't be dead by the morning. She tells me that she has an emotional connection to the fish because they represent for her the characters in "Finding Nemo", and she feels as though she already knows them. She would be crestfallen if any of the fish don't make it, and told me that she wouldn't look at the tank until I made sure that they were still alive.

It's about the relationship... never would have thought... and that's what a movie can do (and by the way, my wife has a masters degree from a top 3 graduate program, so I don't think "below-average-intelligence" fits her bill).

[Sardaukar]

The way I see it is like this. If the movie gets young kids and their parents interested and involved in aquariums, then its a good thing. It may cost the lives of countless clownfish and blue hippo tangs, but I think we can all agree that is a price worth paying for getting the populace at large, and particualry children, interested in learning more about the oceans. The only hope of having any reefs left in the world 100 years from now is if we get kids to think and care about the ocean. If this movie does that in some small way, I say more power to it.

As far as the captive breeding programs, it is possible to build your reef entirely from captive propogated creatures. Aquacultured Florida Live Rock, captive bred, raised and fraged corals, captive bred and tank raised clownfish, dottybacks, cardinalfish, gobys and even angelfish are now avaliable. The more we buy these products, the more we encourage people to sell them. People realize the potential for this market and try to open up new products (i.e. attemtp to breed fish that have not yet been captive bred), the more species we will have avaliable to us. Its all about lessening the impact on the reefs and if that means paying 5 bucks more for your percula, then I say do it.

[Alberio]

I would be more than happy to keep only tank raised/bred fish and coral if our government outlawed the import of marine ornamentals. I think that would be a good thing.

But since imported fish and corals are readily available at the pet store I figure any fish that I buy is one of the lucky ones. It's going to get a great home (relatively speaking) and great care. Yeah the ocean is better for the fish, but it's a little late for that once they're in the pet store.

mjd

[Sloth]

Yeah, but would fish ever be imported from the wild if people weren't buying them up like crazy?

[Alberio]

You point is not valid. Who's going to organize a boycott to stop the purchases? It would have to be an outright ban.

Further more if ornamentals are not imported the people that live by the reefs will find some other way to generate revenue from them. Any reef that is near humans is toast. Probably sooner than later.

mjd

[Sloth]

Originally posted by Alberio
You point is not valid.
Its just the economic principal of supply and demand

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Sloth
Yeah, but would fish ever be imported from the wild if people weren't buying them up like crazy?
:thumbsup:

[mikenegue]

Getting just a little philosophical, is freedom more valuable than health, wealth or happiness?

Does the fish have a better life in the ocean than in a conscientious aquarist's tank? It seems to me that a fish is obviously safer in a carefully established and maintained tank than in the wild where it must avoid not only its natural but also artificial enemies and dangers. I would guess that a fish's (besides the moorish idol and other difficult fish) life span in a tank is longer than that in the ocean. Also, how many fish have food (that is balanced nutritionally) that drops from heaven like manna on them everyday? I don't believe fish in conscientious captivity have to worry too much about competition for living space or resources either. Finally, I believe that all animals and plants are affected by touch, affection, care, etc. -- that life is fuller because of relationships.

Wait, am I talking about fish or people? We've chosen to limit our freedoms (surrendering certain choices) in order to live safer, healthier and longer, to be able to enjoy more of the comforts and pleasures of modern living, and to be connected to a larger cosmos that we share with one another and our Maker. I think freedom is a sacrifice we've all made to gain these things for ourselves and those we love.

I think our fish friends would do the same.

[newbieneedshelp]

Wow. I don't know if there will be any come back to that. That's really brilliant. It makes almost too much sense. hahah, nicely done :)

-Robin

[Trumpet12]

Originally posted by mikenegue
Getting just a little philosophical, is freedom more valuable than health, wealth or happiness?

Does the fish have a better life in the ocean than in a conscientious aquarist's tank? It seems to me that a fish is obviously safer in a carefully established and maintained tank than in the wild where it must avoid not only its natural but also artificial enemies and dangers. I would guess that a fish's (besides the moorish idol and other difficult fish) life span in a tank is longer than that in the ocean. Also, how many fish have food (that is balanced nutritionally) that drops from heaven like manna on them everyday? I don't believe fish in conscientious captivity have to worry too much about competition for living space or resources either. Finally, I believe that all animals and plants are affected by touch, affection, care, etc. -- that life is fuller because of relationships.

Wait, am I talking about fish or people? We've chosen to limit our freedoms (surrendering certain choices) in order to live safer, healthier and longer, to be able to enjoy more of the comforts and pleasures of modern living, and to be connected to a larger cosmos that we share with one another and our Maker. I think freedom is a sacrifice we've all made to gain these things for ourselves and those we love.

I think our fish friends would do the same.

Interesting, nicely done post! I think that the main arguement against it would be to say that there is more in question than the one fish that gets put in a new environment. Some people would say that even if it does not have bad affects on the fish when it leaves, it makes the situation in the ocean worse, by taking away an organism.

[Shoestring Reefer]

I just prefer to accept the fact that my reef keeping is a selfish act, and minimize the harm done to my captive animals.

[mikenegue]

I agree with Shoestring... 99% of us don't collect ocean life in order to be philanthropic to marine animals. I also agree with Trumpet12 that it's not just about our own little piece of the ocean -- if we are taking a Biblical mandate to "subdue the earth" and to "have dominion over the fish in the sea", it was in no way a license for abuse or exploitation. In fact, a better interpretation would be to apply proper stewardship over the earth and its precious resources. I don't think that I've completely thought through what effect my fish-keeping interests will have on a particular ecosystem (or if we apply the "butterfly effect", on the entire planet). I'm now responsible for considering these ramifications, and for then taking appropriate action to prove my "stewardship".

This thread has been helpful in getting at least one person to rethink the hobby. Thanks for giving me reason to be more conscientious.

[reiple]

Beyond the Disney formula (parent=child relationship, growing up pains and glory, comedy acts, etc....) ---
Maybe the movie (finding nemo) converted some people into good aquarist. That would be a good effect.

All in all people here (Philippines) view the hobby differently.

1. Many living far from the sea regard it as fascinating and interesting. Finding Nemo was an inspiration for them.
2. Those living near the sea would enjoy the cartoons and entertainment. These same people wonder why anyone would keep "weeds" and critters they can easily pick outside their homes!
3. The government is banning it (coral harvesting and keeping). Good thing the government is not so effective. The movie Finding Nemo is a tax source.
4. Marine biologist consider it the way musicians consider rap music (reefing is entertaining but it's not real science). Finding Nemo's lesson is important --- these creatures belong to the sea!
5. Aquarist consider it an event. Finding Nemo would encourage people to keep cute Nemo in a tank!

All i hope is out of 1000 people who saw it and maybe 100 went into keeping tanks and 10 kept marine tanks at least one does it with wisdom and conscience.

...yak...yak...yak.....sorry ....... ;)

[atrain]

Just thought i'd poke my nose in here. I was reading the majority of the posts here and some seem to be a bit off the main topic of the original post. Should a person with a current tank feel guilty about having captive pets? So do we not keep birds in bird cages? Snakes in boxes? dogs in yards? Aren't flowers living plants too? Shall we not cut them for pleasure? the list goes on.

So, let's dig deeper. Which all depends on the species you keep. Do you research the species which you are keeping? How much do you know about your fish? Are they free swimmers? Are they territorial? Do those 2 things say alot about your fish?! of course they do. So is it ok to keep corals?, but not fish? Are they tank-raises or captured? What's the size of your tank?

I figure, the more closely the species are kept to their natural enviroment, the more comfortabel they are. i.e. how much space does a clown that is bound to it's anenome really need? How much room does a free swimming tang need? (where are the tang police here?)
If anyone here has NEVER been the subeject of mal-reefkeping pleae raise your hand.

The best i believe we can hope for is people to research and understand any species they plan on keeping b4 it's introduced to the tank.

I think alot of questions are arising here and need more attention to then impulse buying for responsible reef keeping.

Research is key

aaron

[atrain]

ohh, btw, anyone who hasn't seen the tetra "finding nemo" tank skit, I have it downloaded. That's a ******* crime. If you would like to see it I will gladly send it to you.

We have profanity filters in place for a reason, please do not try to "fool" them

[mnewsome]

The worst thing about aquariums are irresponsible people, who truly don't care about the animals. An example of this is this pet store up the road from me. They don't seem to care one bit about the fish there. About two months after I had my aquarium up and running, I'll admit, I didn't know a lot about what I was doing. I went to this pet store and saw a mandarin goby and a scooter bleny and loved them, so I was asking the employees who were helping me about what they eat and behavior. They told me they were easily kept fish who ate strickly brine shrimp. After I starved those poor fish to death I started being more responsible and realized I needed to do my own research and not to trust anyone at that store. They feed every fish there brine and algae strips, I get very sad every time I go in. I also learned just recently that every fish at that store is wild caught and imported from various places around the world.

People can say that frish have very short memories, but I don't believe that. Three of my fish acted like they were trying so hard to get out of their box. They would keep softly hitting against the glass to try to get into the background scene and swim back and forth somewhat erradictly against the galss on every side of the aquarium. Very sad. The only thing that can put my mind at ease is the fact that now I have an excellent set-up w/lots of LR, LS, and great water chemistry, which is a lot better than a lot of people who could of ended up with my fish.

[wsm #59]

Originally posted by Alberio
I would be more than happy to keep only tank raised/bred fish and coral if our government outlawed the import of marine ornamentals. I think that would be a good thing.

But since imported fish and corals are readily available at the pet store I figure any fish that I buy is one of the lucky ones. It's going to get a great home (relatively speaking) and great care. Yeah the ocean is better for the fish, but it's a little late for that once they're in the pet store.

mjd
I am a little late jumping into this thread but there are many good points being made. My thought is this. If we ban the import of Marine Ornamentals then in a sense we are going to be limited on what can be tank raised. Think on this of all of the eggs that a clown pair will lay in their lifetime maybe only a few will live(to adulthood) to replace them in the wild. Now if they lay eggs in someones tank and they raise the fry...up to 80% can survive(depending on species) Back to what i was getting at. As breeders and persons that are trying to encourage aquaculture and captive bred fish i feel that we need to still import Marine Ornamentals because i want the best genetics that i can get so i dont end up with a bunch of inbred fish(its like blood lines in dogs you have to pay more for the better blood lines)
anyways thats my opinion
(from a breeders stand point)

Whit

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by wsm #59
If we ban the import of Marine Ornamentals then in a sense we are going to be limited on what can be tank raised. If coral imports were banned, wouldn't that force people to find ways to tank-propogate more types of corals? After all, banning the import of those corals would surely drive up the value of the corals in captivity, especially a few years down the road when many of the captive corals have died. That would give more people the motivation they need to find a way, if possible.

[wsm #59]

So you are saying that eventually i am going to need a bank loan to buy a captive coral :D

I dont think it will give the people the Motivation that they need. People in general dont care . Only people with the money are going to buy them.

[Trumpet12]

I would think that people would be willing to pay significantly more than they do now if it was the only way to get the fishes, invertebrates, and corals that they wanted.

[wsm #59]

but how long is it going to take for someone to find out ways to captive bred fishes that are not currently being bred (tangs, triggers, certain gobies, ect)

[Shoestring Reefer]

Some might end up being easier than we thought, it could take years for some, and probably some could never be bred. We'd just be out of luck if we wanted something we couldn't get to reproduce. And, I'm not an advocate for banning anything that can be collected without a lot of shipping die-odd, and still be sustainable in the wild. I just suspect a ban on collecting would encourage more research into breeding.

[wsm #59]

yeah i have to agree with you on that

[Trumpet12]

Originally posted by wsm #59
but how long is it going to take for someone to find out ways to captive bred fishes that are not currently being bred (tangs, triggers, certain gobies, ect)

I would think that it would still make sense for research institutions and commercial fish breeding facilities to be allowed to collect some fish from the wild, even if wild caught species were banned from general use.

[Trumpet12]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
Some might end up being easier than we thought, it could take years for some, and probably some could never be bred. We'd just be out of luck if we wanted something we couldn't get to reproduce. And, I'm not an advocate for banning anything that can be collected without a lot of shipping die-odd, and still be sustainable in the wild. I just suspect a ban on collecting would encourage more research into breeding.

Originally posted by wsm #59
yeah i have to agree with you on that

Me too. I don't think that banning all wild caught organisms is necessary, I just think that there should be limits and bans on some species.

[mgregson]

hey there,
I am an "environmentalist", a marine ecologist, and I keep fish in a box....Is this wrong??? Well, its not what nature intended...

But like someone earlier in the post said, I think we need to be honest and admit that we keep them because we enjoy the hobby...We know that there are adverse affects, I try to manage them as best I can...I do not keep corals, I have collected my own fish, although I have purchased some as well....

Please do not say " I provide a better home than the fish shop"... This is not a valid argument....By purchasing a fish from your LFS you are supporting the trade and hence encouraging more wild collecting etc...

What is the answer?? As a scientist I can see captive breeding providing many popular species for the hobbyist, especially within the next 10 years... If worse comes to worse and there is a ban placed on wild harvesting, then I know I would still be happy (and guilt free) keeping only CB fish...

Cheers
Marcus

[Mariner]

Well, its not what nature intended...

Just a question for thought: Who is this "nature" person and how does anyone know what he/she intended?
;)
Mariner

[PRC]

I would guess that what Marcus meant by "nature" was basically the way things would be if we didn't interfere. In other words, fish would live in the ocean if we didn't interfere and remove them to put in our little glass boxes.
Yes, of course we are part of nature. Humans, however have a tremendous impact on the environment and the earth is a much different place because of us.
I don't think we really want to get into the discussion here of whether or not we were "meant" to do these things. I believe that discussion is outside the realm of Reef Central.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by PRC

I don't think we really want to get into the discussion here of whether or not we were "meant" to do these things. I believe that discussion is outside the realm of Reef Central.

I can't see that discussion taking place without going down the Religion road. If you can, by all means, have at it. If the discussion turns to religion or politics, it will be closed.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Well, I personally feel that anything done by humans that can't be done in their absence is an un-natural event. Without discussing our natural or intended place in the world, or lack thereof, I think everyone can agree that humans have much more influince than animals; and, more importantly IMO, we can change many of our global impacts simply by deciding to do so. Nothing other species on earth can (and does) change their global impact at will like humans can.

Damming a river is a natural event event, because beavers do it all the time. Setting off a-bombs and putting monkeys into sub-orbital flight is not a natural event. That's just MHO. Some people feel that humans are part of nature, and everything that happens is part of nature. I think that diminishes the word "natural" because if everything was natural, we wouldn't need a word to describe natural things.

Keep in mind, wiping out (or nearly wiping out) a species has, does, and will continue to happen without human intervention. Maby it's not natural for fish to be in a box, but it IS natural for dutch elm trees to be wiped out by parasites, or for weather changes to wipe out the wolly mammoth (not sure on that one, just an example), or the extinction of countless fossilized animals to happen.

[Mariner]

The key here folks is that my question was for "thought." To be clearer -- I did not intend it and do not want it to be a question for "discussion." There are things that are outside the realm of what is allowed/appropriate to discuss on RC. But we still do get to think about them on our own, and maybe even encourage others to think as well -- at least I think we do.
:D
Mariner

[Seanlee]

Originally posted by DgenR8
I can't see that discussion taking place without going down the Religion road. If you can, by all means, have at it. If the discussion turns to religion or politics, it will be closed.

I wonder why someone who has the power to close a thread would do so, only if it went down the wrong road.. I thought this was a forum to discuss our views, although they should start as reef related, why would you try to control what people want to talk about? If the disscussion goes down the wrong road and no one replies while then it closes itself..

I know I am way of topic here.... But just thought I would chime in.. It seems as soon as we dont meet someone else's agenda, then its all over...


Sean

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Seanlee
I thought this was a forum to discuss our views This is a forum to discus "Responsible Reefkeeping", the site is for reef/sw aquariums, and It's one of the better boards around. They are strict about content compared to other sites, and I'm glad they are, even if it forces me to hold my tongue/fingers now and then.

Politics, religion, and Ford vs Chevy vs import are discussions that are rarely productive, and this is a productive site IMO. I'm glad the mods keep it that way.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
This is a forum to discus "Responsible Reefkeeping", the site is for reef/sw aquariums, and It's one of the better boards around. They are strict about content compared to other sites, and I'm glad they are, even if it forces me to hold my tongue/fingers now and then.

Politics, religion, and Ford vs Chevy vs import are discussions that are rarely productive, and this is a productive site IMO. I'm glad the mods keep it that way.

Well said, AND you saved me from having to once again explain that religious/political discussion is not permitted here.
Sean, you wanna discuss religion and or politics? Go here www.religionandpolitics.net

[Seanlee]

I never said I wanted to discuss religion or politics, but thanks for heading me in the right direction if i did want to....


Sean