how to begin?

[Allyson]

OK, we're hooked. We love our fish and spend most of our free time with our tank. We want to learn to scuba. If anyone has opinions about diving training in the SF Bay Area (Mountain View) please tell us. What confuses me is having so many accrediting agencies. Are all the same? How do you choose a course? Here are the accreditation organizations:

PADI
RSTC(Recreational Scuba Training Council)
SSI (Scuba Schools International)

If anyone knows anything about scuba diving in the Great Barrier Reef (best tour guides, books), please also let us know.

What are the good websites to learn about this?

Thanks,

Allyson

[billsreef]

Hi Allyson,

SCUBA is definately a great hobby. I just got back from a trip to the Cayman Islands BTW. Not only is diving enjoyable in it's own right but is also a great way to study first hand the animals we like to keep in our Aquariums.

The most widely recognized accredation organizations are PADI, NAUI, and SSI. I would be inclined to stick to one of those. As for picking a shop and instructor in your area I would advise talking to as many people as you can and visting the shops. Talk to the shop people and instructor(s) to get a feel for them, much like you would with an LFS.

Some good online sites are www.scubadiving.com , www.skindiver.com

[hartman]

Allyson,

My wife and I got certified on our honeymoon for open water by PADI shop. It cost about $350.00 each and took 5 days and that is resort price. You have to read about 200 pages and learn tech stuff. Then you spend about 6 hours a day in the water. Things you learn are buddy breathing, removing all your gear underwater, swimming a course underwater, and that is just to start.

I highly recommend PADI people, go to their site http://www.padi.com/

Hartman

[diveguy]

Hi Allyson,
I tend to agree with Bill, PADI, NAUI and SSI are recognized worldwide. I would suggest spending some time talking with any instructor you might consider choosing, then talk to some of his students if possible. Any instructor should be willing to answer a few questions before you sign up for the class, get an instructor that you feel comfortable with and have a great time! If you ever want a real thrill, come wreck diving on the great lakes, not quite as warm as the Carribean, but kinda neat.
p.s. there are quite a few other good certification agencies out there, but Bill named thr Big 3.
Good Diving, Capt. Billy (diveguy)

[Kengar]

padi, naui, and ssi are definitely the most common, widely recognized. ymca is also generally respected.

[hcs3]

allyson

don't study on your vacation! do your classwork and poolwork in the states, then do the open water portion on your vacation. the actual work in the ocean doesn't last long, and 1/2 the dive is spent exploring. studying and pool work takes up a good deal of time. my wife and i just did this exact thing. i highly recommend doing it in this manner.

FWIW, the resort in jamaica recognized padi and naui

HTH

henry

[Kengar]

I want to emphasize what hcs3 said. i have never seen a resort course that, in my view, adequately prepares a diver to go out into the open ocean. it takes time to get accustomed to the situation you are putting yourself into -- you are completely immersing yourself in a medium where your first instinct is hold your breath since you can't breathe the medium, albeit some take to it quicker than others -- and the poolwork you will do over the course of a three or six week course (2x or 1x weekly, respectively) will give you the time to develop the comfort level you need to have with that situation. I have seen people on resort courses nearly drown (Club Med, Turks and Caicos; they had no business being down at 70+ feet on the crappy regulators Club Med has for rental gear, over a wall that plummets to several thousand feet). Do it the right way and you will enjoy the experience tremendously.

[hartman]

While I can't comment on other resorts I can say that PADI shop I was at inside Sandals IMO were state of the art.

Here is what we did.

1) Read the PADI book over 200 pages broken up in chapters and written and verbal plus water test were completed
2) We spend 2 days in the pool 6 hours each time working on all the basic aspects of equipment, proper buoyancy, removing and putting back on all equipment, buddy breathing, proper buddy swimming.
3) First open water was to learn to pull people at the surface and at 10 feet or less repeat all we did in the pool
3) 2nd trip we went to about 30 feet and practiced buddy breathing, removing and replacing your mask which the instructor would pull off your face. Emergency regulator swapping, proper hand signs, an practicing navigating via compass.
4) 3rd trip we practiced emergency surfacing and regulating buoyancy on the bottom, and then more buddy breathing sharing one reg while swimming a coarse.
5) 4 and 5th were reef dives of up to 60 feet. Also we were forced to create dive charts and calculate our dive time and nitrogen levels.

The whole time we had a 1 to 1 ratio with instructors and they were very nice to my wife.

Hartman

[hcs3]

i have never seen a resort course that, in my view, adequately prepares a diver to go out into the open ocean.

100% agree. i sat through the "resort course" that sandals offered. it is a 3 hour class followed by 1 hour in the pool. after completion the students are allowed to dive once per day to a depth of 30 feet. it is not certification. talk about scary. i'm rather surpirsed they let people jump in the ocean after such little training.

While I can't comment on other resorts I can say that PADI shop I was at inside Sandals IMO were state of the art.

which sandals did you stay at? we stayed at sandals negril last week. it was far from "state of the art". state of the art for a 3rd world country/island, ....maybe :rolleyes: in fact, on one particular dive, a diver had their rented regulator clog at 90 feet. no air. how nice, huh? glad it wan't me or my wife.

We spend 2 days in the pool 6 hours each time

you actually enjoyed doing this on your vacation? i found it much easier to get this done in the states. i value my time too much to spend 12 hours doing course work on vacaiton.

JMO

henry

[billsreef]

on one particular dive, a diver had their rented regulator clog at 90 feet. no air. how nice, huh? glad it wan't me or my wife.

Now that's scary, especially when you start thinking about what condition the inside of thier tanks must be in cause a clog :eek:

[nebosn]

Here are the most common, Padi, Naui, SSI, TDI/SDI, Ymca, I believe they are in the correct order of largest to large (they are all huge and accepted worldwide.) Here is my understanding...Padi-pay a yearly fee, good training, lots of classroom, antiquated, but catching up. Naui-same as Padi, but no fee, SSI-don't know much on this one. SDI/TDI-most current with dive medicine, profiles based on computer algorithms, computer intensive, more pool time than PADI/NAUI, largest TECHNICAL certification in the world. YMCA-not as accepted, but still worldwide, antiquated like PADI NAUI, but I am not sure if they are working to imporve this situation like PADI or NAUI.

www.padi.com
www.naui.com
www.tdisdi.com
www.ssi.com

I do not recommed a resort course, do the classroom/pool where you live and the check out dives on vacation.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[hartman]

henry,

just a couple of things.

It was Sandals in Antigua. It was a PADI shop in a Sandals resort. While they did not have titanium regulators and brand new wet suits their equipment all had recent inspections. Also The people were very well training some had PADI medic certs and even Master Instructor.

in fact, on one particular dive, a diver had their rented regulator clog at 90 feet With all due respect, they must have been dope. All systems have backup regs, where was their buddy? and on a Discovery dive no one ever goes 90 feet(well stupid and dead people do I guess). And even at this Sandals They never go past 60. 60 is considered the max depth anyone should go with only recreational "open water" certs anyway.


We had 16 days of vacation and it was the best time we spent other than the helicopter ride over Monserate's active volcano :)

[hcs3]

The people were very well training some had PADI medic certs and even Master Instructor.

i never questioned the dive masters/instructors training. infact, i had no reason to. all sandals dive instructors recieve their training from the same place i did - scuba emporium in orland park illinois.

With all due respect, they must have been dope.

respect granted, though i'm not sure what your talking about???

All systems have backup regs, where was their buddy?

locked arm -n- arm as they ascended, just like every diver is trained to do. his personal back-up was useless since it was his first stage that clogged. but what does this have to do with a regulator clogging from a damaged tank? the tank should never have made it onto the boat in the first place.

and on a Discovery dive no one ever goes 90 feet(well stupid and dead people do I guess).

i'm not dead, so are you calling me stupid?

And even at this Sandals They never go past 60.

probably because there was nothing but amateurs. sandals negril offers 4 dives per day. the first is a 100ft dive at 9am, followed by a 60ft dive at 10am. in the afternoon they have a 60ft dive at 3pm and then a 30ft dive at 4pm.

60 is considered the max depth anyone should go with only recreational "open water" certs anyway.

hence why every diver was advanced certified or higher besides my wife and i - we were doing our "deep dive" qualification for the advanced certification.

henry

[hartman]

henry,

I though we were taking about where to start, your examples are on advanced training and deep diving. I was under the impression that you were speaking about a discovery dive and they took him to 90 feet, and then I inferred that that person was stupid not to fine out that 90 feet is too deep and they did not have a backup reg, now you say it is not that but a tank valve failure.

My only point was that for open water cert under PADI instructors the dive shop at Antigua was IMO good, and your right about going to a "real" dive school for anything above recreational open water cert.

I just think we were thinking on 2 different levels, so sorry for the miss communication.

Hartman

[billsreef]

Just like with the LFS we are used to dealing with, different dive operations can be either good or bad. It all adds up to the people running the operation and the people they employ.

Hartman, I'm glad you and your wife found one of the decent ones and had a good time. Just one comment on the 60ft thing, a good open water course should have you prepared to handle 100ft dives with enough time in water to be comfortable with it.

For the sake of you and your wife I need to clarify the operation of regulators and how easily the first stage can be clogged. As the second stage (the part in your mouth) is capable of having a sea sick diver vomit through it without cloging is not likely that was the part of that divers gear that malfunctioned. However the first stage regulator (the part that attaches to the tank) has a very fine filter on it, this is the part that has been known to clog when used with tanks that have coatings of aluminium oxide or rust (in the case of steel tanks). When this part clogs it will certainly ruin your day, as neither your regular regulator or octupuss will work.

When traveling it is always good to take a look at that first stage filter. Remember the resorts are inspecting thier own equipment. While most are good there sadly some that just slap that inspection sticker on a tank without actually inspecting it.

[hartman]

billsreef,

You said it better than me. I don't claim to be a dive expert I just relating what I though was a good start at a decent shop in a resort.

I do understand about the filter and 1st and 2nd stage and maybe my mistake was assuming henry was taking the 2nd stage over the 1st stage. At this Sandals they made us check the filter ever time and the O-ring, and always made us attach the 1st to the tank ourselves, and even to check the treading on the cap plus the tank valve itself for rust or damage.

Hartman

[hcs3]

I though we were taking about where to start, your examples are on advanced training and deep diving.

regardless of when the examples happened, it did happen. it could have been at the 30ft training dives, or the 120ft deep dive. the point is, it did happen, and should not have.

now you say it is not that but a tank valve failure.

um, no i didn't. i said first stage regulator.

your right about going to a "real" dive school for anything above recreational open water cert.

well, i never said that, either. all sandals dive instructors are trained within the USA at scuba emporium in orland park illinois. because of this, i would trust their instructors just as well as i would trust any back in the states. even moreso, the water around reefs is so clear it makes for a much better learning environement. but who wants to study on vacation? this is why i say do the class work and pool work in the USA, then transfer it to your resort and do the open water training there.

I do understand about the filter and 1st and 2nd stage and maybe my mistake was assuming henry was taking the 2nd stage over the 1st stage.

first, i never had a problem. it was someone else on our dive boat. secondly, i still think you are confused on your first and second stage regulators. maybe i'm not reading you correctly, or maybe i'm confused. don't know. hopefully bill can help sort this out. but my impression of the first stage is the high pressure regulator that attaches directly to the tank valve. it takes the high pressure from the tank and regulates it such that it is now at a low pressure. the 2nd stage is the low pressure regulator, or the part you stick in your mouth. on some octopus' there are 2 - 2nd stages, one primary and one secondary (alternate air source). within the first stage is the small filter i've been speaking of. corrosion from within the tank clogged this screen. when this happens, the entire octopus is useless, including both 2nd stages.

At this Sandals they made us check the filter ever time and the O-ring, and always made us attach the 1st to the tank ourselves, and even to check the treading on the cap plus the tank valve itself for rust or damage.

this is standard procedure at most dive operations, and is standard of all sandals. however, corrosion within the tank cannot be detected without removing the valve stem and sending a flashlight inside. however, i fear sandals does not inspect their tanks in this manner, at least not often. if they did, the tank in question would have never made it to the boat. instead, they rely on the standard look overs by the user. in this manner, it is impossible to detect corrosion on the inside.

henry

[diveguy]

Hello again,
I have been attempting to stay out of this but it could have been something other than a clogged filter that rendered the reg useless. Was it a piston or diaphragm 1st stage? I am not sticking up for Sandals but there is far too much liability involved in diving for haphazard maintenance. I have taught Discover Scuba courses ( similar to a resort course) and watched students drag their regs through the sand,then attempt to rinse them without the cap on the 1st stage. All PADI professional level divers must carry liability coverage. This is the case with all American based certification agencies.This is supposed to be maintained for 7 years after the instructor becomes inactive. This is due to the statute of limitations. A PADI instructor can be suspended for failure to follow standards prescribed in the current instructors manual. If a diver wants to make deep dives they should have proper training, an AOW card is a good start. For deep dives PADI offers a deep diving specialty that will allow you to reach the RSTC max recreational depth of 130. Want more, try TDI and mixed gas diving. Always remember, if you die, it really doesn't matter who's right. Except to your heirs. Bill

[hcs3]

I have been attempting to stay out of this but it could have been something other than a clogged filter that rendered the reg useless.

it could have been, but wasn't. i saw it with my own eyes.

FWIW, the regulators never leave the dive boat. no chance of being dragged through the sand.

henry

[diveguy]

Henry, Sorry! I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. I was just making a feeble attempt to explain sometimes there can be many things that can cause a reg to malfunction. At least most of the new regs function downstream, so reliability is far superior than the good old days. If it were me using that reg when it failed, I would have raised heck! Sorry for the misunderstanding. Bill

[hcs3]

hey bill

no misunderstanding at all. no need to be sorry. i understand you were trying to throw out circumstances. i don't have any problem with that. normally i'd take it into concideration, but in this instance i know what i saw for sure.

the gentleman that it happened to did raise wholly heck, as you can imagine. luckily, he was a very experienced diver and remained calm throughout the entire instance. on this particular dive there was a photographer down with us. he videotaped the entire dive. as luck would have it, he filmed the entire sequence where the diver realized he wasn't getting any air and casually swam over to his dive partner, grabbed his alternate air source, and signaled what happened. they then surfaced. pretty cool sitting in my livingroom wathcing it; glad it didn't happen to me. i like to *think* if it happened to me i could have remained calm. however, if it happened to my wife, it could have had a very different ending.

henry

[billsreef]

The biggest thing we can learn from this is to keep up our training and experience. The biggest cause of diver deaths is simply panic. With good training and lots of practice it is possible to maintain calm and simply go up.

This is also the sort of malfunction that makes one think about going out and buying a Spare Air unit :)

[nebosn]

Here is the list of what I bring to travel with...it is listed from most important to not as important to have you own...

1.) Mask-w/o a good fit your dive will be miserable
2.) Computer-this would be number one but they are both small so I ALWAYS have both and normally a spare of each (If your primary computer goes, you need to either do every dive with both computers (so if the one does fail the back-up has all the information necessary to continue diving, or wait 24 hours between dives and then use cahrts or a backup computer.
3.) Fins and other small personal gear (i.e. lights, slate, snorkle)-comfort again
4.) Regulator-do you really want to trust your life to a shop that rents our so much stuff that they often cannot maintain their gear?
5.) BC

In no case should you bring lead, and the only case where bringing a tank makes sence is technical diving (cleaned) or rebreather diving (different valves).

If you have any questions please feel free to ask...

[hcs3]

In no case should you bring lead

why is this? is it simply the weight factor, or am i over looking something?

at sandals negril they didn't have the best belts. most had rough edges which made taking it off and putting it back on in the water a real pain. also, i'm a fairly large man requiring a belt of 46 or so. they had trouble getting one large enough to fit me. plus, the weights did not have retaining clips, so the weights slid around the whole time. it was rather annoying.

would it be smart to buy my own belt and clips and then borrow the weight from the dive shop?

TIA

henry

[billsreef]

Most dive operations include the weights in the price of the dive, so why carry a bunch of lead around :D However there is nothing wrong with bringing your own belt and using thier lead ;)

Too add to nebosn's list:

Spare straps for mask and fins.
O-ring kit.
Silicone for said O-rings.

Basically the more of your own equipment you can bring the better. Of course this assumes that you keep your gear properly maintained :D

[nebosn]

The reason for my saying no lead is that airlines have weight restrictions and going over then is VERY $$$$$$$. Bringing your own belt and clips is a great idea, when I travel I bring my weight pouches (weight integrated BC). Plus, do you want to carry your lead from the car to the plane, the plane to the hotel the hotel to the dock, when you can spend $7 a day and rent it? Just my opinion. Plus you normally use less lead in the tropics than in th northern climes. 1.) Water density changes with locale 2.) your suit can make you more or less buoyant. Nerves make you more buoyant, etc. So I feel it is better to rent lead because lead is lead and it cannot be poorly maintained or broken like your reg or BC.

Good question though...

[reptilicus]

What exactly would you like to know about diving in Australia? I have done a fair bit of diving around the Great Barrier Reef, both north and south, and the Coral Sea. I'd be happy to help you out if you would like to know anything.
Regards,
Tom