Fish are dying.........

[W_dailey]

It all started when I added two yellow chromis and one was pretty beat up from the store so he hid the rocks and I couldn't get him out so I assumed he died, then my blue damsel quite coming out for food and I assume he died in the rocks. After the damsel died I did a 10 gallon water change hoping that would help then my female clown started acting funny, breathing hard and not eating then he died and I was able to get the clown out.......now I'm going crazy, I tested my nitrates and ammonia and they are undetectable with my fast test kits and my ph has been fluctuating from 8.0 to 8.2 and I added a geo ca reactor just lately but I've tweaked with it for a week now................ONE more thing, I have two Tangs in my tank also and they are not bothered by any of this dying, a Blue Morpho and Kole Tang. I haven't a clue why any of this has happened and have no clue on how to fix it.................Any Suggestions ...........please...............

[W_dailey]

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[W_dailey]

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[JohnL]

I think we need a little more info.

When was the tank setup?

What animals do you have in there?

So far it sounds like you have some type of disease that is being spread from fish to fish.

[W_dailey]

The tank has been up for 4 months now and it has

fish(now)

Royal Gramma
Male Clown
Two Blue Green Chromis
Blue Morpo Tang
Kole Tang

Fish before (dead)
Female Clown
two yellow chromis
Blue damsel

Three redlegged crabs, a bunch of snails, a camel and peppermint shrimp one each.

It's not ich because the Tangs are fine

Should look into a UV to get what ever is causing the deaths out of the system? Why aren't any of the other fish affected or maybe with time they will be......I don't know.

[ReefDomain]

I had the same problem in the begining. I lost about 6 fish. My problem was phosphate. Maby you should check it. oh yeah all my other levels were fine "nitrates, ammonia, pH, etc..." But this might not be whats wrong, but check it anyway!!

[W_dailey]

If its phosphates then what did you do to help?

[ReefDomain]

Then you run out to your LFS and pick up some type of pohsphate remover. I use a product called Phosphate Remover, by Coralife 24/7 in my canister filter.It took about two days to clear up and haven't seen to much of it since:) Hope this helps!!!!

[JohnL]

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with phosphates.

How big is this tank?
At what points were each fish added?

[JohnL]

I'm moving this thread to the Fish Care forum for better attention.

[Heinrich]

A couple of things, what did the dead fish look like that you did manage to take out? Is there any visible peeling of the mucous, any wounds, were they eaten up?
Possiblilities are that you've got some critter such as a mantis, that's taking out your smaller weaker fish.
Other possibilities are brooklynella which I hope you don't have, which affects damsels and clowns much more.
Other questions are how much do you feed? Are there any corals in the tank as of now?
Have you checked the pH at night, if you're using a Ca reactor.
I would do some large waterchanges 1/3 add some carbon and feed the fish a lot and very well also fortifying. There is a good chance that the fish might have eaten the flesh of the dead guys and gotten sick.
Then there is the question about the camel, which if it gets hungry can attack fish, and is it a camel or a monkey or other shrimp.
Then other factors are temp fluctuation, which affect small fish much more than larger. Also oxygen saturation. Is there an overflow? A film on the tank.
Are there sufficient hiding spaces, artificial corals, do the tangs get the most food?
Do you buffer the water? What's the photoperiod.
Add additional aeration through an airstone. This also helps remove DOC through the skimmer better and with this lowers the level of free floating bacteria.
Do you use a good waterconditioner? Prime. You're tap water might have chloramines which especially in saltwater aren't taken out well.
People smoking?
Stray electricity?
Take the water to a store for tests.
Well that might get us somewhere?
Also never buy injured fish or from questionable LFS, getting disease is a pain and much more costly than the money you save.

93! Heinrich

[BrianD]

Are the other occupants of the tank showing any signs of stress? If toxicity of some type in the tank is the problem, I would be surprised if the damsel succumbed before the tangs. They are usually very hardy. What size tank do you have? Do you have any livestock (filter-feeding sea cuke,etc) that are toxic?

[Guy]

Originally posted by Heinrich

Other possibilities are brooklynella which I hope you don't have, which affects damsels and clowns much more.

I would point here.... Brook acts this fast....

[W_dailey]

Heinrich,

The only ones that I could get out were the yellow chromis that was beat up from the store so I was suprised about him. And the clown just began breathing heavy and swimming on the bottom and when he was real bad he had a white tint to his skin and all the other fish disappeared into my pile of rocks and I happen yet seen them. The fish I was able to take out had no signs of wounds. The camel and peppermint shrimp are still in there but I have a feeling they aren't the problem. Unless..

How do you get rid of Brook whatever....by the way

I feed about a cube of brine shrimp and flakes and formula one every day and everyone in the tank has a good chance at the food.

The only corals in the tank are some xenia, plate coral, some polyps.

I have a ph monitor and it ranges from 8 at night to 8.2 at the peak of the day.

I have carbon in the tank always and I change it every month, it just sits in a bag made out of a sock in front of the overflow pipe that enters the sump. What about using socks in the tank? I just did a 10 gallon water change last weekend ........I will do another this weekend. I use RO water from the water department down the street and have used it from the beginning.

There are no other shrimps in the tank, can a manits be some type of hitchhiker? I feed pretty good so I doubt the fish are eating other fish's dead carcuses.

The temp stays at 79/80 at night and it raises to 81 in the middle of the day. I have only been running VHO's lately and the MH every once in a while but mostly due to the fact I don't have any corals that need the two 250 MH.

I have an overflow and I noticed yesterday that I have a film on the top of the tank, is that due to not enough agitation on the top of the tank?

When I feed the powerheads produce a swirl in my tank so that causes the food to stay suspended for a long time and the tangs are not aggressive towards each other or any of the other fish, but they move quickly and it sometimes scares the other fish.

There are plenty of spaces for the fish to hide in crevices and caves.

I have buffered it in the past but now that I have the CA reactor and it keeps the alkalinity and the ph pretty much constant.

I have the lights on from 12am to 10 pm and the sump LOA is on most all the time.

I will add a air pump and stone to the sump, tomorrow.

No smoking.

I might have to invest in a Grounding probe for the sump just incase, but what are the signs of stray voltage other than being shocked. I get static electricity from the carpet when I touch the edge of the water in my socks.

I will take the water to a LFS to be tested.

I didn't mean to buy the injured yellow chromis initially, the lfs guy just grabbed that one and I didn't really see it until I was floating the bags.......I hate learning, when it causes the death of fish. I probably will not buy another fish for a long time , 20$ clown, 6$ damsel, 12$ two chromis, pretty costly.

[Guy]

To treat Brooklynelle I would pull the fish out, do a formalin dip and place them in a quaranteen tank until they are 100% again. Follow the directions on the medication. FYI - Copper is not very effective for Brook...

[billsreef]

You might want to consider getting a quarantine tank set up for the future. It is the best way I have found to avoid these types of disease problems in the main tank ;)

[Heinrich]

That white film stuff I really don't like at all.
That sounds a lot like brooklynella or if it was almost a sheen it could have been Velvet. Those are probably my two absolute favorites when it comes to fish disease. Fast, deadly, nasty, not treatable in a tank with inverts, lovely.
Pretty much the only thing to do is quarantine or get one Large UV.
Both diseases really affect the gills and if there is a film on the tank there is poor oxygen exchange and that will kill the smaller more active fish fast if ther gills are damaged go to the disease. That's the pain. Hard to spot and even if the parasites drop off the wounds in the gills are terrible and infection follows fast which is usually the killer, if oxygen isn't an issue.
The idea with the airstone is adding it inside the tank. Close to the overflow. This allows you a long contact time because the air and water rise the 18-whatever inches until they reach the overflow. This is also the best ozygenation form. Even a sh!tty skimmer such as the Berlin works well with this since there has been a long contact time and the particles are much more likely to bond to the water/air surface.

Brooklynella is a pain, requiring quarantine with hyposalinity and three formalin baths every other day and large waterchanges.
Keep salinity at 1.010 and then take out for an aerated formalin bath. Aerate the formalin for a few minutes before getting the fish in. If the fish is breathing really hard don't do the formalin just pray. It would be the same as pouring peroxide into a deep wound.
Using Maracyn2 at double dossage daily for 5 days is recomended for secondary infections.
I would quarantine all the fish for 3-4 weeks min because likely all new stressed fish will now end up in the way you saw. Try once more with another clown maybe, but not humane and could jepordize all other inhabitants.
Unfortunately I don't have the time to help you further, but do some searches on hyposalinity, Terry B, Brooklynella, Oodynum (spelling is off), just Velvet, formalin, quarantine, etc.
MAybe Billsreef can help.
Good luck.
Quarantining is definately the way to go.
93! Heinrich

[W_dailey]

I know a Q tank is probably the answer, but I wanted to ask if My two tangs, 4" morpho and 6 " kole tang, I also assume need to be taken out but could I leave them in because they are doing great and showing no signs of stress and I don't want to take them out. I will take my male clown out and If I can catch the chromis then I will take them out also. I've read on making a Q tank and can I use all new water and use some type of sponge to start the cycle and I'll purchase one of those penguin filters. I don't know If all this trouble is worth it, I really don't have the money to pay My car payment and I'm lookin at buyin a bunch of stufffffffffffff.........I don't know

[billsreef]

It is usually best to treat all fish. Remember the Q tank can be as simple as a cheap rubbermaid container and inexpensive sponge filter. It doesn't have to look nice, just needs to be functional ;)

[Heinrich]

A rubbermaid tub, an airpump, which you'll use later in your reef, and a sponge filter and a hang on heater. $25. That's it. Seed the spongefilter in a tub with a bit of sand from the tank and then add a little food to decompose for a few days. Normal food (human) works just fine. You can use ammonia too. Set it outside in a pitcher or other small container, with the airpump for 7 days and presto. Seeded filter but also use another airstone. Add some uggly pieces of LR rubble and sand around the filter for seeding. Also throw in some bowls and PVC parts or plastic toys, as shelter since they work as a filter too. Get a BIG sponge filter though. And use a strong airpump or borrow one. The most expensive bit.
Slowly add one fish after the other if you can. Clown first since he can tolerater ammonia best. Then after another week add the tangs. Safe and the best bet. Hyposalinity. You can order that stuff online too. Get some ridich from a friend.
Or ask to borrow a setup from the store you got the sick fish.
93! Heinrich

[W_dailey]

thanks for the info, went you say sponge filter you mean like a penguin filter or a powerhead with a filter on the input.

[W_dailey]

went shoppin a cheap millenium hang on filter, air stone for air pump that i had already, a 50 watt heater, a maxijet 400, some live rock rubble, a sponge from my tank and now I want to know what you mean when you say formalin dip because I bought Formalite 2 and it says to drop a drop per gallon ..............

[W_dailey]

Should I worry about hyposalinity or not. My plastic hydrometer is accurate but probably not good enough. I added flakes to get the ammonia to spike and thing else I should be worrying about?

[W_dailey]

Should I bother testing for ammonia or nitrates today or just let it go?

[W_dailey]

anyone there?

[billsreef]

The formalite is designed to be used as constant bath in the Q tank. When we refer to a formalin dip we are using a strong concentration of formalin in a small container and only subjecting the fish to for a short (1 hour) period of time.

It is a good idea to keep tabs on the ammonia and nitrites. The nitrates you don't need to worry about.

[Heinrich]

A sponge filter is simply a very fine sponge that has an airlift tube. They sell for about $5. You take them out with a pitcher and squeeze them clean. Give you mechanical and biological filtration.
Not that that matters now.
Get the millenium into a bucket or small container. You don't want to waste a lot of water. If you have chips (potato or corn?) floating in a tub, it's OK but you;ll need a lot and it's a waste of water since you want to just seed the filter than transfer it to a new tank. Easiest with some straight amonia. In a bucket. Also add the spongefilter and some rubble placed in the millenium so that it seeds the filter. Only since in a bucket of dechlorinated water. Place sponge filter close to rubble as well so it get seeded faster.

The hydrometer should be accurate enough. Remember that 1.010 has less buffer so buffer the water and use new water that has mixed for 24hrs.

Formalin dip. Use new water floating in q-tank so it has the same temp. Then aerate formalin in dip for 1 min. Use maybe 2-3 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket. Go with dip dossage or 75% of dip dossage. Salinity should be 1.008-9 in bucket. Buffer all mixed water first before using.
Then you dip each fish for about 20min. If really stressed return to q-tank earlier check first 5 min then every minute.
Use fresh water if you can, for the tangs and then all the little guys together as well.
Then transfer them back to the q-tank with a net.
Do this every other day for three dips. All the fish. Don't get water from the dips into the tanks.
Start the q-tank out with a salinity of about 1.018-16 then do a waterchange with buffered FW or low salinity water every day and bring the salinity down to 1.015, 1.013, 1.010.
This will ensure that you don't get any ammonia spikes and also that the fish adjust better to the qtank. Make sure your filters are cycled. Also add decorations to cycling container.
You want as much surfacearea having biofilm as possible. Don't get any water from the main tank into the q-tank. Get bags to acclimate but empty water into buckets when netting out fish.
Do frequent large, 10-25% waterchanges to keep waterquality in the q-tank. You're using lower salinity water so you'll need less salt. Suck out the tank bottom each cleaning.
Keep water buffered.
Also keep fish in q tank for a few weeks, min 3 weeks with 2 weeks at hyposalinity. Then after hyposalinity period is over slowly raise the salinity by 0.002 a day to tank levels. Remember rinse out all containers and nets with hot water.
If you experience bacterial infections get some Maracyn 2.
Also some garlic might be helpful to feed in q-tank. Keep botom bare and vacuum to remove parasite that drops off. Vacuum while doing dips.
25% waterchanges.
A Whole lot of trouble. Brook is really the biggest pain to take care of. But from now on you have a q-tank and can avoid this mess.
I would q fot 4 weeks. No additions to main tank.
Q new fish for 2 weeks. Best way to get them to eat and recover from stress. After the first 10 days start doing waterchanges with tank water to acclimate the fish and get him used to tank parameters.
Qing goes hand in hand with waterchanges that way and no extra money is needed. Keep filters seeded by running them in some amonia water/ water with a bit of rotting organic sludge.
It really is easy.
Great skills will be learned observing your fish.
Also try not to introduce water from corals when buying them. I add water from the tank to the bag and then give another floating of the coral in a bucket with tankwater for a few hours just to be on the safe side. Also helps to prevent getting coral disease in the tank. Do a quick addition of coral dip the last minutes, then take coral out of water and place in tank.
Alright that's it. I've been spending WAY to much time on the boards.
93! Heinrich

[Heinrich]

Hydrometer is fine just keep it at the upper end of the 1.010s. O.k.
good luck.
93! Heinrich

[Heinrich]

Oh another thing 75% of dip dosage for an hour and full for 20-30min. try the 75% first for 20min and if everyone is OK after 20-30 go for 1hr if you have time. This is best. Next dips at full for an hour if you can. 20min is O.K.
You prety much have three batches so you can go parallel. Anything works as a container, but be careful to not get formalin on you or do this in any food containers, its toxic.
93! Heinrich

[W_dailey]

I'm having high levels of ammonia in my Q tank and I have all the small fish in there now........what should I do, waterchange with what salinity? I was perparing to put the tangs in but I better wait for the ammonia to come down rightt??????

[Heinrich]

That's why I told you to simply wait and seed the filter for a week. Do a large waterchange. And suck out all the crud. Also feed very little. Adding some LR would be a good idea.
Keep the salinity until you have the ammonia under control. Don't bother about testing for nitrate. Nitrite is more important. Make sure your q-tank is fully cycled before adding fish. OR in your case before adding the tangs. The idea was to have a seeded filter. If the ammonia is really high. Higher than .75 then do a 50% waterchange, if lower than .5 do a 30%. If you see any signs of disease start lowering salinity. Actually keep some LR in there until you lower the salinity below 1.018, this will help with waste. Lower salinities will kill of the LR.
Just keep doing your waterchanges and feed very little. Currently don't lower salinity until you have the ammonia under control. You can get some Prime or Ammolock by Seachem, just in case things get really bad. Keep ammonia under .25 at all times. In the begining its fine to do waterchanges with tank water.
Wait it out it should take at least a week for your filter to adjust.
Feed sparingly and suck out any uneaten food.
You can also cheat with a polyfilter if your not using medication but only hyposalinity.
insert into the powerhead or after the biological compartment of the millenium. Else the biological area won't reproduce to handle the ammonia.
Good luck.
And don't bring the salinity down unless there are problems before adding the tangs. Maybe lower it to 1.018-16, but not lower unless you see signs of disease, or you don't have enough salt, etc.
93! Heinrich

[W_dailey]

Welll..................First I would like to say Quarantine all your fish before you put them in your tank because horrible things can happen. I lost all my fish to my quarantine tank that must've had a bad heater that heated the tank to high temperatures and killed all the fish......I would have to say I lost a lot of fish and a lot money, but the money was never the problem really. I just wanted to save my fish. I probably won't buy another fish for a long time and when I do, I will have a quaratine tank waiting for the fish.

[W_dailey]

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Just makin sure everyone heard what I ended up.................

[W_dailey]

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[W_dailey]

Anyone there

[billsreef]

Just been putting in too much time and crazy hours at work last few days or so.

Sorry to hear things did not go well.

I've lost a few fish to bad heaters myself, nowdays I wont even bother to buy anything but a high quality submersable. The possible loss of fish just isn't worth the savings of buying a cheap heater.