Glow Fish

[dwall174]

California's Fish and Game Commission on Wednesday refused to allow the sale of the genetically alteredGloFish (http://www.glofish.com/about.asp#1) in the state. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which has jurisdiction over bioengineered animals, has not indicated whether it will step in and regulate the pet fish, which are due to go on sale next month.

What do you think of genetically altered fish (or any animal’s for that mater) that was bred for laboratory or research use! Being sold as pets? I for one am against it! What’s next a three armed monkey or a five legged dog?

[dwall174]

Here's a pic incase you haven't seen them http://images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-12/10474996.jpg

[ri]

If we say "yes" to these fish (by buying them), what will be next?

ri

[Dakan]

I don't think we should mess with genetics inorder to improve on the appearance of any living creature. Things are the way they are for a reason.

[knowse]

I hate the idea of gm anything.
BTW, Seagrest shipped them to my LFS last week.

[BUBBA9459]

I got a story about them today.

It claims that the original reason they were enginered that way was for use as test fish, used to test the amounts of harmful chemicals in our waterways, and water treatment plants.

They were supposed to change colors when in the presence of certain chemicals.

Then I guess someone got the brainstorm that they could make a lot of money selling them to the public.

And they are making the money, A regular fish goes for .10 ea, and these are going for 2.50

[dwall174]

Just Look at what could be next!

http://www.glowingpets.com/
http://www.glowingpets.com/images/glow_frog2.jpg

[Dakota_reef]

I think it's ridiculous! Messing with nature like that isn't a good idea. We have no idea how the fish is really doing... could be suffering from somethign and all..

[PRC]

I definitely disagree with the idea of gentically modifying fish (or any other living thing for that matter) for aesthetic reasons such as this. However, I think that GM crops are a very different issue.

[dwall174]

I agree that some of the genetically modified crops & scientific research is useful & necessary! However I don’t feel it’s right to Genetically Modified a animal just to make a buck!

[Dakota_reef]

couldn't have said it better myself. . .

[MattandJenCook]

Ok I know that this is gonna get me alot of ripping but here it goes. I think it is neat. If I thought it up and had the know how hell I would be doing the same thing. Maybe they can fix micheal jackson? These fish were created to help our children have waterways to swim and drink from. So what if they are going to LFS for a quick buck. Also they are made not to be able to breed so there will not be any that take over an ecosystem. SO WHO REALLY CARES, ITS GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT WE SAY OR THINK. I dont mean to be rude but this has to be said. As for the ripping thats what you put below this repley thanks and have a great morning, afternoon, and night.

[dwall174]

No ripping here! You are entitled to your opinion & as the starter of this Poll, I appreciate that you voiced your opinion!

Originally posted by MattandJenCook
SO WHO REALLY CARES, ITS GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT WE SAY OR THINK.


You’re probably right! It just makes us feel better to voice our opinions!:D

Yea they are selective breed & sterile so there would not be any kind of threat to our ecosystem. In fact, could you imagine a glowing fish trying to hide from a bass. :lmao: I just feel that this could be opening the doors to all kind of genetically modified pets!

[MattandJenCook]

Yeah I agree with what doors it will open in the future but thats what makes the future so exciting. Things are going to change maybe in the future they will figure out how to bring back animals that humans hunted out or killed. Maybe there will be no people dying from waiting for a heart or liver because we would be able to clone a liver or heart. I think that the future will be great and that things will be better. I think that the glo fish is neat I wont buy one because I am into reefs but I will want to see them in a store. I really dont think that this is a big deal things are going to change thats life. I think that is the best part of life change. Keeps things from being boreing.

[Algae Blenny]

If the genetic altering is not going to harm the individual fish and the fish is sterile, so it is not going to be released created an ecosystem tradgedy, does it really matter? They did not set out to make fish for commercial use, but they did and these things are probably selling like crazy. Its not harming the animals, or the ecosystem, so whats wrong. Its nice if you think that you can stop genetic engineering, but thats impossible, this is 2003, not 1903.

[Dakota_reef]

Originally posted by Algae Blenny
If the genetic altering is not going to harm the individual fish and the fish is sterile, so it is not going to be released created an ecosystem tradgedy, does it really matter?

This may be out of place, but in the words of Ian Malcom: "Life finds a way." If there is a guarentee that they can't reproduce, it's one thing. But how can they?

[Algae Blenny]

Often genetically engineered animals and hybrid animals are born sterile. A mule is a cross between a horse and a donkey and they are born sterile. I am not sure if these are, if they are not sterile I may feel differently.

[Dakan]

Also they are made not to be able to breed so there will not be any that take over an ecosystem. [/Q

[QUOTE]This may be out of place, but in the words of Ian Malcom: "Life finds a way." If there is a guarentee that they can't reproduce, it's one thing. But how can they?

Took the words right out of my mouth.;)

[MattandJenCook]

I knew that was going to come out that is a complete work of fiction. Maybe we should start lookin for a dinsaur island. I know that our genetics are not that advance. I think people hear something in a movie and bam its true. I think that its a great that they made a fish glow red hell make him blink while you are at it. I know its not the same but what about the neon tetras? The are altered not geneticaly but they are altered. I think that this is a great step forward in the scentific world.

[Algae Blenny]

Neon tetras are altered? I know some FW parrotfish are, and some of those clear tetras, but neons?

[MattG]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also they are made not to be able to breed so there will not be any that take over an ecosystem. [/Q

[QUOTE]This may be out of place, but in the words of Ian Malcom: "Life finds a way." If there is a guarentee that they can't reproduce, it's one thing. But how can they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


honestly though even if these fish were released into the wild and found a way to breed how long do you think they would last with the glowing camouflauge?? i dont think they would last a day in the wild.

[MattG]

i am the minority here but i dont see that genetically altering fish is a big deal. i see it as if enough hardy freshwater fish were altered maybe when the average person walks into the fish store they wont even think about buying that colorful wild caught saltwater fish.

i cant tell you how many people i know who have went into a fish store and decided they wanted to try marine fish because of the colors they saw. the problem is 90% of the time they arent willing to spend the time or money on the proper care of them. so they leave the hobby 1 month later with half a dozen dead marine fish under there belt.

just my view

[Algae Blenny]

thebigmg is right, you know how many families I see wandering into the SW section at the LFS by my house, wanting to see a colorful tang or "nemo". They walk out of their with a tang and a 12G JBJ Nano Cube.

[MattandJenCook]

I guess that thebigmg and I have the same view thanks I totally agree.

[Dakota_reef]

All I am saying, is that it does have an impact on the ecosystem; not necessarily a good or a bad impact, but an impact nonetheless.

[MattandJenCook]

How does it have an impact. Just explain your point. For one it can't breed, two if it was introduce a bass would hit that in an instant, and three it is a tropical fish so it can survive the cold winters. How can it impact an ecosystem if it can survive in an ecosystem.

[allenreef]

Originally posted by Dakota_reef
All I am saying, is that it does have an impact on the ecosystem; not necessarily a good or a bad impact, but an impact nonetheless.

Way to sit on the fence...all actions = reaction...isn't that some law of science..you are just stating the bloody obvious

[carribeanlovers]

Originally posted by BUBBA9459
A regular fish goes for .10 ea, and these are going for 2.50

My LFS told me that they are going to be selling these fish for around $10 each.
A bit pricey for FW zebras I think.

[MattandJenCook]

I would do the same its gonna be about supply and demand just like the hot christmas toys

[PRC]

Will these fish have a negative impact on the environment? I seriously doubt if anyone on this board (or anyone anywhere) is qualified to answer that question. I know I'm not.
Fact is that history has shown mankind to capable of inflicting massive amounts of damage to the environment through the unforseen consequences of releasing foreign organisms into the wild. The earth's ecosystem is an unimaginably complex and interrelated system. No one understands all the relationships and dependencies.
I'd agree that the chances are probably very small that these fish will ever cause any major environmental problems. However, I don't believe that the small amount of risk is worth it when the only justification for producing them is purely aesthetic.
I believe that genetic research and modification will prove to be an incredibly powerful and useful tool for mankind. I think the potential rewards of GM make it worth taking some of the risks inherent in the field. We should all realize that these risks are significant and the impact can be very far reaching. I do not think that making glow in the dark fish to entertain people is one of the rewards worthy of this risk.

[jdieck]

Why such a concern with all this? Genetically modified foods and crops have been around long time ago. The modifications my not have been as direct or by chemical means but why today we have cows that produce lot more milk, tender beefs, resistant hybrid strains of corn, wheat and rice, lower fat pork meet and what to say about all those FW long finned angel fish, poping eyes gold fish and kwoi pond fish??. All of these have been genetically modified by intense cross breeding seeking the desirable features, I really see no difference other than they took longer to achieve.

[csanchez77]

I met this girl in a bar one night and realized after a very short conversation taht whe was triping on acid...told her that acid was not goo and it can really scre thing up in your head.

Her response was ...'it's okay, its not like a see little green mosnters like my friends do when the get all f..."

My response: "Well if your not seeing little green monsters, then you need to watch out for the purple elephants"

I was just joking, but imagine that when she sobered up and found this link, http://www.glowingpets.com/pets/glow_elephant.htm she never hit on anything again in her life

[xxaquanutxx]

Any body remember what happened in Jurrasic park?? All the dinosaurs were supposed to be girls... Nature found the key hidden under the mat and opend up the door and let the boys in the dorm... Nothing is impossible.. There are gentic mutations that occur in all different aspects of life.. there are people and animals who grow extra body parts. well what if a fish grows and extra wing wang or something.. you never know

[xxaquanutxx]

You want a glow fish,, Buy a black light and put it over your tank.. then all the white and clear parts of the fish will glow.. walla!

[MattandJenCook]

Ok I basically have been a huge voice in this discussion and I have one thing to say WHO REALLY CARES! As for the jurassic park thing it was already posted so that basically shows that you didnt read it. I have done some reading on these fish and they have been around for almost 10 years. They served their purpose now I didn't hear any B*tching when they were used to help an ecosystem against pollution. But as soon as they are sold in a petstore that is bad. I am really getting tired of this issue, I feel like some people just want to act like they care about the ecosystem how many people recycle? I guess that I this is my view on the subject, If I or you thought it up and made millions then would OK. I leave you with this WOULD YOU IF YOU HAD THE KNOW HOW WOULD YOU MARKET IT TO MAKE MILLIONS? BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF. You know the answer is HELL YEAH I WOULD AND SO WOULD YOU. I really think this topic is like beating a dead horse. It is dead let it go. By the way I bought 6 of these fish last night and have a tank just for them. I plan on buying more they also have 5 different colors comeing in the next 4 months so I guess that there is going to be a new post evertime there is a new glo fish color. I CAN'T WAIT! I hate to be a dick but come on let people make some money. Oh if I hear jurrasic park brought up 1 more time I am going to scream, it was a movie steven was trying to make money so how do you know that that part is even a true. It could have been made up.

[SoKaL ReeFiN]

I think I'll stick with my .10 zebra danios/feeder fish for my nano-planted tank.

[musicsmaker]

What about a "glowing" zebra fish is going to hurt the ecosystem any more than a non-glowing one? What does the glowing have to do with anything?

[MattandJenCook]

Thanks that is what I am talking about

[DaGoldenChild]

Originally posted by musicsmaker
What about a "glowing" zebra fish is going to hurt the ecosystem any more than a non-glowing one? What does the glowing have to do with anything?

i think its kinda cool that the fish glow hey i might even buy some my self they could be pretty fun to look at, as far as it affecting the ecosystem the chemicals injected in it or whatever they have done to it could have a horrible effect on any fish that eats it and that can cause massive problems if it becomes a disease just look at some of the genitically altered things that cause massive sickness or death this could be a problem if this fish is released into the wild but for home aquariums it could be pretty cool, its new and different, I think the biggest problem with this issue is people are afraid of change, their afraid of what's new and different from the norm, just look how people used to think about computers taking over the world and destroying us all, well they did take over the world but now we have, some of the world's greatest medicine and life saving machines because of it, so just because something is different doesnt neccesarily mean its the worst for the world

just my opinion

[DaGoldenChild]

oh buy the way i live in New Jersey anyone know where you can find glow fish around here i want some

[MattandJenCook]

It is already been released into the wild it was used to locate polluted spots in rivers. Ohh they are neat I have six and they dont loose the coloring and it is brite.

[DaGoldenChild]

does anyone know where to find Glow fish in New Jersey?

Thanx in advance

[musicsmaker]

Call your LFS. They should be able to get them for you.

[Sarc]

Just wondering about the whole sterile thing, on glofish's website they say that the colour is permanent and that even their offspring will retain the colour...if they are sterile then how do they know this and why would they say that?

chris

[Triterium]

Originally posted by xxaquanutxx
Any body remember what happened in Jurrasic park?? All the dinosaurs were supposed to be girls... Nature found the key hidden under the mat and opend up the door and let the boys in the dorm... Nothing is impossible.. There are gentic mutations that occur in all different aspects of life.. there are people and animals who grow extra body parts. well what if a fish grows and extra wing wang or something.. you never know
Are you talking about "Jurassic Park" the movie or "Jurassic Park" the documentary?

Just pretend the inserted "glo gene" was a natural genetic mutation or insertion

[Trumpet12]

A little genetic modification probably isn't a big deal if the modified critter is healthy and can't reproduce.
Extreme genetic modificaiton could be a problem.

[Trumpet12]

I saw the same thing as Sarc on the glofish site's statement. They did say that! Are the fish really steril?

[serjuanca88]

Here are some interesting numbers I was able to come up with:

Only 99.8% of the fish are sterile.

This means 1 in 500 fish is capable of reproducing.

Lets assume that there is a 50/50 male-female ratio. You have a 1 in 500,000 chance of getting a breeding pair.

Not saying anything, just throwing out some facts

[musicsmaker]

If I were to get a breeding pair, would the offspring glow?

[serjuanca88]

Yes, because their pigment genes are both glowing genes. So yes they would glow.

[dwall174]

Originally posted by musicsmaker
If I were to get a breeding pair, would the offspring glow?

Yea but we know that wont happen!:D The breeder has made sure that wont happen! Not because of any threat to our environment! But more to protect their pocket books!

[PRC]

All I'm trying to say is that there is some risk associated with any genetic modification, especially when it's across species. No one fully understands the effects of these modifications especially since genes often code for more than one function. This is not the same as crossbreeding or hybridization. The risk may have nothing to do with whether or not these animals can reproduce. Rampant reproduction and outcompeting native species is typically the major, though not the only, risk for exotic invasive species. Genetic modifications pose all new risks though.
Suppose the gene that makes your new glofish glow also codes for a protein that allows a cnidarian disease make the jump to fish? The step to infecting other native fish would probably be a minor one at that point. Could this really happen? I honestly don't know, but I seriously doubt if anyone can guarantee that it won't. We have a very limited knowledge of genetics at this point. That knowledge should be enhanced under controlled conditions in laboratories, not in peoples home aquariums.
IMO it's worth taking these kinds of risks for things like iron enriched rice and pest resistant corn and maybe even pesticide resistant soybeans. These things have the potential to save and enhance millions of lives. Using this little understood technology for entertainment is just plain irresponsible.

[dwall174]

Originally posted by PRC
All I'm trying to say is that there is some risk associated with any genetic modification, especially when it's across species.

No one fully understands the effects of these modifications especially since genes often code for more than one function. This is not the same as crossbreeding or hybridization. The risk may have nothing to do with whether or not these animals can reproduce.

These things have the potential to save and enhance millions of lives. Using this little understood technology for entertainment is just plain irresponsible.

That’s my feeling also! I do see the need for Genetic Modifications
When it relates to scientific or medical research. :) However, in this case it’s just to make a buck! I’m not against any one making money! I just feel this could be opening Pandora’s Box for all sorts of other Genetic Modifications just for entertainment or profit!

[BananaTropics]

PRC, the chances of this glo gene creating an ecological problems are extremely small, but possible (as im sure you would agree). I think there is no risk in selling this fish in colder climates. And I would bet this fish would have no enhanced survival rate over a normal zebra in its natural environment (if not a disadvantage). Since these fish are pretty much sterile, I would be more concerned about introducing normal zebras into a non-native environment.

If you are seriously concerned about the dangers of GM organisms, I would worry more about creating pest/disease resistant crops. These plants are introducing these genes into other plant species and creating super weeds which don't respond to most herbicides.

And if you are concerned about invasive species, non-modified organisms are already doing a pretty good job or taking over.

My point...this fish should be the last of your concerns if you are genuinely concerned about the issues brought up here.

[BananaTropics]

Even though I do not see any dangers of the sell of the glo fish, I think future uses may introduce more serious ethical and ecological problems.

[PRC]

BananaTropics, I'd agree that these fish probably present a very small risk. I also agree that the other issues you mention (GM crops, invasive species) pose more significant near term threats and problems. It's just that, well, um, the glofish happened to be the topic of this thread... ;)
I'm just trying to point out (evidently, highly unsuccessfully) two things.
Fisrt, the fish don't have to be able to reproduce or survive cold winters to cause ecological problems. The recent mass die-offs of South American frogs have been attributed to the introduction of a fungus from non-native amphibians from aquariums. In this case the invasive species didn't have to outcompete the natives, they didn't have to reproduce or even survive very long. All they had to do was survive long enough to infect a few native frogs. And yes, obviously this can happen, as in this case, with "normal" non-GM invasive species. The thing is, who knows what diseases the GM fish might be susceptible to? Is it possible that changes to the fishes genes might compromise it's immune system in a way that it would become susceptible to diseases not normally known to effect fish? Could those diseases then mutate in their new host to infect other species of fish? Who knows? I don't think anyone does.
And the whole disease thing is just one aspect, just one hair-brained scheme that I managed to think up. Who knows what else might happen?
Oh ya, the second point. Decisions are generally made based on weighing potential benefits vs costs and potential risks. In this case it's mostly just benefit vs risk. Again, the potential benefits of iron enriched GM rice are huge. Many lives can be saved and the quality of those lives can be vastly improved. IMO the risk is small but significant and I believe the benefits are well worth taking this risk. The risk of glofish is probably similar to that of GM rice (both highly unknown). As for the benefits? Glowing pets? Seriously now folks...

[Habib]

Maybe now, they can start genetically modifying the saltwater animals (sps, lps, fish, inverts, etc) so everyone on here that is whining about it can continue taking all those corals and fish from the seas without having any impact (pollution, over collection, etc). I know this thread is specifically about the glowfish, but everyone that disagrees with it is using the argument of environmental impace like the hobby this board represents has no impact on the environment....like the kettle calling the pot black. Oh well.

[Triterium]

PRC, don't forget that the glow fish was created for intentional release into non-native habitats. Im sure a lot of research went into ecological impacts of the releases.

Does there need to be a benefit to sell it? What is the benefit of keeping reef tanks other than for our own enjoyment? Habib is right in that our hobby is very disruptive to natural reef ecosystems. That doesn't sound very beneficial to me.

[BananaTropics]

PRC, I spent a good 10 years as a wildlife vet and one problem we frequently dealt with was the spread of disease originating from non-native species. I can assure you that the threat from this fish is minimal. I am a strong opponent to many GMOs, but see no need to worry, ecologically speaking, about the glo fish.

[musicsmaker]

Is it possible that changes to the fishes genes might compromise it's immune system in a way that it would become susceptible to diseases not normally known to effect fish? Could those diseases then mutate in their new host to infect other species of fish? That, to me, is the most sensible argument against these glowfish. Very thought provoking, IMO.

[Triterium]

Originally posted by PRC
Is it possible that changes to the fishes genes might compromise it's immune system in a way that it would become susceptible to diseases not normally known to effect fish? Could those diseases then mutate in their new host to infect other species of fish?

This is not the way pathogens work. Mutation rates in pathogens are independent of host species. You are correct that a change in a gene may effect several phenotypes, but from what I understand, the gene that creates the glowing is an insertion, not an alteration of an existing gene.

[Genetics]

I think these glowing guys are pretty neat. They cannot survive in the wild, like the neon tetra. The only difference is that they were inserted with a coral protein that expresses red whereas the tetra was bred to that color. I don't see this red gene destroying the world, it's like putting the GFP into the mouse. GFP makes the mouse green under lighting.
I don't think that this should be encouraged by the purchase of such fish, as it will only allow more research into adding genes into fish. Although a neon eel would kick some @rse!
As for the mule being sterile. That is true 99% of the time. There is however the mule that is fertile every now and then. It raises the question on what is a species, mostly b/c it is defined as the inability to crossbreed.
Jurassic Park cannot exist without DNA, and an egg that is ennucleated that will support the species.
Anyways, to my point. Animals used for scientific use should not be allowed to be used by the general public. It's like allowing the purchase on baby alligators and once they get too big people just release them into the wild. Not that I am saying alligators are genetically modified.

[musicsmaker]

OT ~ Are baby alligators not legal to own?

[serjuanca88]

Not everywhere I presume. They are legal here in Texas.

[PRC]

Originally posted by Triterium
This is not the way pathogens work. Mutation rates in pathogens are independent of host species.
I didn't mean to imply that the mutation rate would be affected. I was just referring to the fact that pathogens are known to occasionally "jump" to new species. I can't say whether or not this inserted gene may allow a cnidarian or some other new pathogen to make that jump to fish. I don't think that is too farfetched an idea since I'd imagine the inserted gene codes for proteins that are normally found in cnidarians and probably not in fish. Also I don't believe that anyone fully understands how the inserted gene will interact with the rest of the DNA in the new organism. The actual rate of pathogen mutation doesn't really have anything to do with it. I just think that a pathogen mutating in a fish would have a much better chance of developing a strain which would infect other fish than one mutating in another type of organism. I realize that there are alot of long shots here, but I think that these are all scientifically viable scenarios.
As far as the testing goes, all I can say is they only tested for the scenarios they thought of. In the remote chance that a disaster occurs it will be the one they didn't think of that causes it.
However small the chances of these fish causing a disaster are, selling them as pets increases those chances by orders of magnitude. I guess the question is: how much risk are you willing to accept for the sake of entertainment?

Habib, I must thank you for relieving me (and all of our fellow aquarists) from that nagging environmental conscience. I never realized that in buying an aquarium I had relinquished any and all rights to any form of concern for the environment! If you'll excuse me now I think I'll go exercise my newfound freedom by dumping my motor oil into the storm drain, then maybe I can stop by the Hummer dealer and pickup that H1 that I always wanted...:rolleyes:

[Triterium]

I think Habibs point was that you are against the sell of a fish that has a one in a billion chance of causing some type of ecological damage, but you have a reef tank that has a 99.9% chance of doing ecological damage. Kind of like an H1 owner telling someone they cant buy a Toyota Prius because it releases greenhouse gas. Or even a better example are those moviestars which fly around in their private jets (which burn hundreds of gallons of jet fuel) who are trying to pass laws to tax those that buy SUVs. :rolleyes:

[PRC]

I know, I know. Just having some fun at Habib's expense ;) . Evidently, I'm not the only one doing so either - did you see the Habibless Search button yesterday :D .
I try to avoid analogies at all costs. I always find that where the similarities between two issues are so obvious to me, it's the differences that everyone else seems to see.
There are normally two factors taken into account when assessing risk. One is the probability that the risk will occur, the other is the impact if it does occur. The probability of environmental impact from reefing is highly dependent on the practices of the individual and mostly quite controllable. IMO a reef tank using aquacultured LR, CB fish and inverts and high efficiency lighting and pumps has a relatively minor environmental impact. A tank using wild collected LR and cyanide collected fish with an owner that regulary releases exotic fish to the wild has a significantly higher impact. Kind of like the difference between the Prius and the Learjet (just can't avoid those analogies sometimes ;) ).
The risks for GM fish are a very different animal. The probability is very difficult to determine since we aren't even certain what the actual risk scenarios might be. The impacts probably range from negligible to catastrophic. While the math may seem to infer differently, there is definitely a difference between a one in two chance of a $1 impact and a one in two billion chance of a billion dollar impact.
My main concern is how little we know about how these things actually work. My fear is that our level of understanding of genetics is about the same now as our understanding of ecology was when the experts decided it was a good idea to introduce melaleuca trees to south florida to drain the evergaldes.

[Tyr-Sog]

I'm all for science and if it means altering a fish to glow, so be it. :celeb3:

but I could really care either way/.

[Xanareef]

Originally posted by dwall174
Yea they are selective breed & sterile so there would not be any kind of threat to our ecosystem.

Unless they're able to engineer them without gonads, these fish will eventually adapt and be able to start breeding on their own.

Alexis

[Triterium]

*edit - this message was way too sarcastic, but funny

[MattandJenCook]

Ok this is simple crude but simple. If I take your testes away are you able to breed? No and eventually you still won't have testes. So will you be able to breed no, Not now not later not ever. I can't belive this topic is still here

[PygmyAngel]

Um, actually some fishes do eventually have testes when they didn't previously....the clownfishes, for example... So, why wouldn't the glow fish be able to do what clownfishes and some other fish species do? Like change sex when they need to? What's the scientific term for that? Escapes me now. Anyway, why wouldn't that be a possibility? That sounds crazy, doesn't it? That a fish can just change its sex as it needs. But it's real. So, some things aren't so far-fetched. And there's a difference between being sterile and being castrated too, right? Were they specific about whether the fishes were actually sans testes, or just unable to use them? That might make a difference in adaptation and evolution of this fish....

For that matter, many animals reproduce asexually, too. That seems even more weird than changing sex at will, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be interesting if we could just divide into other humans whenever we wanted...kinda like anemones or mushroom corals, or bacteria, or.....

Maybe it's not ridiculous that this topic is still here... ;)

[MattandJenCook]

no thats not my point if you had none then could you propgate? that is the point.

[Genetics]

If genetically you had none, wouldn't that mean your parents didn't have any either? I mean it's possible that your parents could have them and you could have a disjunction in a chromosome, but I don't really see this being engineered. Does the website say they are sterile?

[Triterium]

Im sure the fish have the reproductive genes, but the added gene effects expression some how. I'm sure there are exceptions that do express the genes necessary for reproduction in a large enough population. This would be interesting to find out for sure.

[Triterium]

Here is a section of an environmental impact study of the glofish done by Perry Hackett who is the Chief Sciences Officer and professor of the department of genetics and cell biology at the University of Minnesota...

Will treansgenic tropical fish survive should they escape home aquaria?

A. Tropical fish are unable to withstand the environments of most communities. Chlorine (chloramines) and temperature levels would be lethal to the fish. Any tropical fish most of which are relatively brightly colored, that managed to survive for a period of time soon would become snack food for naturally adapted aquatic species. With respect to zebrafish in particular, the validity of this conclusion is obvious when one realizes that millions have been introduced into the United states and yet there have been no confirmed reports of populations that have established themselves in the wild.

He also answers the following quetions...
1. If the fish were to survive, would they pose any risk to the environment?
2. If the fish did not survive, might the transgene escape and have unexpected consequences?

Go here (http://www.glofish.com/science/Hackett%20Analysis%20of%20Fluorescent%20Tropical%20Fish.pdf) to see the answers to these questions.

There are also more environmental impact articles here (http://www.glofish.com/science.asp).

Granted they are on the glofish website, but they are conducted by independent researchers.

[Triterium]

Oh, and to settle the reproductive issue, they do reproduce.

Do you have to add a fluorescence gene to every fish before it hatches?

No. Today's GloFish™ fluorescent fish are bred from the offspring of fluorescent zebra fish that were originally developed several years ago to help fight environmental pollution. Each new GloFish™ fluorescent fish inherits its unique color directly from its parents, maintains the color throughout its life, and also passes the color along to its offspring.

[Genetics]

Adding a gene to each embryo would not be possible. Besides the chimeric fish would only glow in certain cells. It cost my lab more than 2 dollars, the cost of the fish, just so I could insert some lox p sites around the exon I wanted to excise. Anyhoo, congrats on the med school, I didn't know that the schools had started to accept anyone yet. Hopefully that's me next year.

[DouglasTiede]

Well I for one would like to have a genetically altered pet, I am tired of my cat chewing on my lamp cords and I hate the thought of putting "hot sause" on all my aquarium cords =o)

just joking around... After all look at the scientist on South Park
lol

[Genetics]

I have created a monkey with four @ssEs. A bird with.... lol I know what you mean.

[sunrider]

while i'm not going to actively support the concept of genetically altering fish for resale in the hobby i'm not going to actively protest it either...if it comes to a vote i'm against...but only because i've been thru too many science courses to believe that human geneticists can gaurantee anything about what they do (specifically speaking in regards to a subjects ability to reproduce) when they just release it into nature. i'll trust the geneticists in regards to things that are closely monitored (i.e. cloned cattle and the like) and look forward to the day that we can clone specific organs for transplant purposes. but unfortunately life does find a way (some frogs really do change sexes as needed to maintain a proper mix, believe it or not......and in a more direct application of the example just look at the clownfish that is born sterile, but later in life becomes male, and potentially then female while sometimes skipping the being male....refers to article on clownfish posted on RC sometime in december.)

all in all...if they're using it for what they claim to be then it can provide alot of data....i just hope that they've really got all their bases covered. (furthermore i guess it could even be argued that if they want to sell the fish to those who think it would be novel to own them, then proper use of the proceeds could be used to fund the research and thus take up less government money.....lol...nice thought anyhow...eh?)

[dwall174]

Originally posted by DouglasTiede
I am tired of my cat chewing on my lamp cords

Try cleaning them with some of that orange citrus cleaner or rub a piece of sliced orange against the wires! It sounds weird but it works!

PS Thanks for everyone’s replies! :D
I never thought this thread would go this far! :mixed:

[JOSHUAB]

If they can do this to fish, when are they gonna do this to us????

[MattandJenCook]

well maybe cure us on genetic faults. For example those of us that have a family history of an illness would have to worry. If they can geneticlly alter us then I would say it would be for the better why would any one want to glow?

[slipknottin]

Here are some posts on the subject by RTR, FW aquarium Guru.

"Re the coral genes into fish, is no one here aware that corals are commonly occupied by and depend upon symbiotic organisms living in their bodies or even in their tissues? Ditto some clams, ditto some fish (how do you think some plecos can digest wood? Deep sea fish glow?), ditto cows and other rumimants. Man-made insertions are new, natural insertions started with the first cells. Mitochondria, golgi apparatus, genes, distinct nuclei, etc. are the result of fusions or insertions very long ago, and the process continues via viruses in higher life forms.

The only thing new about it is the technique, and that is not so new anymore."

"Scan a molecular biology introductory text. Higher organism genomes and cellular structures are not "pure" and unique to any organism. Cells themselves are the result of many fusions or insertions which likely started as symbiotic relationships, or in some case just incompletely consumed captured "food". The exact detail list of the genes aligned in your DNA is unique to you, yes certainly. The structures and genes that make it up are not unique at all, but are shared across a wide spectrum of organisms. Ditto for cell structures, metabolic pathways, etc.

Corals and fish already share certain genes, what is the hoopla over one more just because it was inserted in the lab rather than in nature?"

"gene tranfers and adaptation/adoption/incorporation of material happens constantly and has forever and will continue to do so, whether by nature or newly by human intent. That is fact and impossible to argue. You may argue freely on the desirability of the human intervention portion of such transfers, but the knowledge is too widespread for it to disappear now."

[Hamlin Aquatics]

I recently saw the glowing Medakas and danios for sale. The articals I read said that they are supposed to be sterile, but I've been told that they are indeed fertile. This is not a good thing.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Hamlin Aquatics
I recently saw the glowing Medakas and danios for sale. The articals I read said that they are supposed to be sterile, but I've been told that they are indeed fertile. This is not a good thing.


99.8% of them are sterile. 1 in every 500 would be fertile.

[MattandJenCook]

I really hate this thread a moderator should delete it. It is getting to the point that everything has been repeated atleast 2 times.

[musicsmaker]

Click on that unsubsrcibe link right below the one that brings you to this thread. Be sure not to click the one at the bottom that reads "Unsubscrie from all threads" though. Once you unsubscribe from them all you can't get them back.

[MattandJenCook]

No I really like this thread but it is getting to the point that people are not reading the thread and just repeating what others have said it is stupid