Question on pumps and ball valves

[masterswimmer]

I know you shouldn't put a ball or gate valve before a pump. I also know you can put it after the pump to throttle it down if necessary. However, I'm setting up my top off tub in another room. It will not start out with a float switch, it will be a manual setup. If I turn on my top off pump and go to the tank (in the other room) and open the ball valve there after the pump is running will I damage the pump?

TIA,
Russ

[Tomzpc]

I wouldn't do it that way Russ. IMO you stand a chance of damaging the pump. I don't understand the purpose of the ball valve. How about going into a little more detail about the setup?

[seaham358]

Top off water pump? Why not have a float switch and make it an auto system. Very easy to do, I have one on both my tanks. I bought the float switches off e-bay, they are great. I have them hooked to a pump throught the extension cord they are wired into. Its a simple/cheap system. I fill the 4 gal bucket once a week on the 55 and about every 3 days on the reef.

[masterswimmer]

Ok, lets see if I can explain this better. The top off tub (55 gallon) is located in a different room from my tank. I snaked 30' of flexible tubing from the tub to the tank. When I need to do any topoffs I was planning to turn on a Magdrive 7 in my topoff tub, go over to my sump and open the ball valve. When the level reaches the desired level, I'd turn off the ball valve then go to the pump and turn it off. The reason for the ball valve is that the sump would continue to fill (overfill) by the time I went from the sump to the topoff tub. Eventually I'd like to do it automatically, but I wasn't sure if I could do this from another room. And I wanted to get more comfortable with the whole routine first anyway. Was I any clearer this time? Could be confusing if you don't see the setup.

tia guys,
Russ

[Tomzpc]

Hey Russ,

You DO realize that in all likelihood you'll be doing this daily don't you? That kind of setup could get tiresome fast, although who am I to talk since I poured in my top off water by hand every day for years. 30 feet is a long way for sure. I assume that the sump and tank are located on the same floor? How about trying this............put a tee or a Y off of the line from the Pump with the second (new)line just returning directly into the top off tank and put a valve on that with the valve closed halfway or so. This way, the pressure will have some place to go until you get to the sump to open the ball valve. This would make the top off water enter the sump at a much slower rate but it should prevent any damage to the pump from backpressure.

As for automating, how about a peristaltic(sp?) pump that is able to pump 30 feet horizontally? Liter meters probably do it but they ain't cheap. ;) Then again, what is in this hobby?

[ChrisRD]

How about having a switch somewhere near the tank so you can just turn the pump on/off while you're near the tank? If that's not feasible, maybe one of those remote lamp clickers would work.

Also, digital appliance timers (about $20) can be programmed down to single minute intervals. I use one to control the stirring powerhead in my kalkreactor. If you measure how much comes out of the outflow of your top-off setup (with a stopwatch and a measuring cup) you can determine how long the pump needs to run each day to top-off the tank. Sortof a cheap alternative to a dosing pump.

BTW, a Mag 7 seems like a large pump for top-off, although I suppose it depends on how much head you're pumping against...

HTH

[Tomzpc]

Originally posted by ChrisRD
How about having a switch somewhere near the tank so you can just turn the pump on/off while you're near the tank? If that's not feasible, maybe one of those remote lamp clickers would work.
HTH

Along these same lines, get yourself THE CLAPPER......
clap on.....clap off :D

[ChrisRD]

As Tom mentioned, I use a peristaltic pump myself. The rebuilt medical feeding pumps are relatively cheap (under $100), but the quality with those varies widely. Greg Hiller supposedly has some good quality peristaltic pumps for under $100, but they are constant-on pumps so you'd need to do the timer thing like mentioned above.

[ChrisRD]

That could be dangerous during a noisy club meeting though...;)

Originally posted by Tomzpc
Along these same lines, get yourself THE CLAPPER......
clap on.....clap off :D

[masterswimmer]

You guys are too freakin funny. I love the clapper idea.

Actually, wiring a switch near the tank would be a breeze. That's an easy fix. As far as getting tiresome topping off daily. I do plan to gaze at and do maintenance daily so that shouldn't be an issue. Mag Drive 7 is big, but i'm figuring approximately 9 - 10' of head. Still will deliver a lot of topoff, or just very quickly!! Therein lies the need for the ball valve too, just for some control.

As far as the peristaltic pump.....I'm ignorant about this and would have to do some research. Maybe then I can talk intelligently about it.

Thanx,

clap clap,
Russ

[Tomzpc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by masterswimmer


As far as the peristaltic pump.....I'm ignorant about this and would have to do some research. Maybe then I can talk intelligently about it.

Thanx,

clap clap,
Russ [/QUOTE

Here's a guy that sells the rebuilt medical ones. I exchanged emails with him once way back and he was very helpful when it came to answering questions and such. As for how reliable his pumps are I can't say, but he does sell on E-bay so maybe you could keep your eyes open for a deal if you decide to go that route.
reefdosingpumps.com (http://www.reefdosingpumps.com)

[masterswimmer]

Tommy boy,
Great link!!!!! Thanx. That might come to fruition. But definitely not till after the holidays. Your other suggestion was not bad either, 'T' off the pump with the loop. I have heard of dosing pumps before, just never knew they were also called peristaltic. A nice, make sense, way to go. Do you have one?

Russ

[skearse]

Leaving a ball valve closed on the discharge side of the pump wouldn't damage the pump, provide you don't deadhead the pump for too long (the time it takes to walk from room to room should be fine). The problem comes in when you deadhead the pump for too long, you end up burning out the bearings on the pump motor (or seal, but you are using a mag drive seal-less pump?).

The downside to persitaltics is that b/c they are positive displacement pumps, they will continue to build line pressure in the event of a blockage until something relieves the pressure-possibly a burst hose or blowing off the worm clamp. A centrifugal (Mag-drive, etc.) doesn't have this problem because it can only build up a certain level of pressure (10 feet of head is 23 psi) which is less than the burst pressure of the hose (generally above 100 psi). If the line for the persitaltic is kept clear & open, it shouldn't be a problem.

Hope this helps a little, and can't wait to see it fired up.

[andro]

Not sure if this would work or not, but what the hell. Taking Bob's idea of the float switch, can you get one and wire the switch to run the pump 30 feet away, so that when the sump runs low, it kicks the pump on for you. Not sure what the electrical rating the float switch is though.

Trust me, when Tom said topping your tank off is going to get old fast, it will. Refilling my top-off every 3 days is getting old also. Looking for a longer term solution now.


-Ian

[Geepers Creepers]

Why don’t you just get a Kent float valve and hook it directly to your RO unit? No switches or pumps. The hole thing will cost around $20.00 for the float, “T� and tube for plumbing.
I run all my tanks like this.

[seaham358]

russ float switch 7 bucks. wire needed to run 30' a few more also an extension cord. splice the float switch into the extension cord on one side. plug in pump........ done..... under $20 bucks. if you want I'll post a pic of mine.

[ChrisRD]

It's one of those things that can be accomplished any number of ways. Go with what you're most comfortable with - they all work. Personally I'm partial to Tom's clapper idea now...LOL;)

I will say this, however....from what I've seen over the past 12 years, Mr. Murphy is most partial to float switches and hang-on overflows.;) Some folks use a second float switch set higher-up for redundancy. Personally, I'm just too paranoid for this method.:D JMO of course...

The peristaltic pumps work well but if you're getting a rebuilt medical pump be careful - post something here first. I've owned three of them (still use one) but some of the designs have issues. Some of them are not very good at pumping against head (despite their claims) and others are just crap. Most can't do much volume either (max is less than 2 gallons a day). Some of these things can be more trouble & $$$ than they are worth depending on what you're looking for (again, IMO).

-Chris

[masterswimmer]

Originally posted by skearse
Leaving a ball valve closed on the discharge side of the pump wouldn't damage the pump, provide you don't deadhead the pump for too long (the time it takes to walk from room to room should be fine). The problem comes in when you deadhead the pump for too long, you end up burning out the bearings on the pump motor (or seal, but you are using a mag drive seal-less pump?).

The downside to persitaltics is that b/c they are positive displacement pumps, they will continue to build line pressure in the event of a blockage until something relieves the pressure-possibly a burst hose or blowing off the worm clamp. A centrifugal (Mag-drive, etc.) doesn't have this problem because it can only build up a certain level of pressure (10 feet of head is 23 psi) which is less than the burst pressure of the hose (generally above 100 psi). If the line for the persitaltic is kept clear & open, it shouldn't be a problem.

Hope this helps a little, and can't wait to see it fired up.
Stacey,
I was under a similar impression, that's why I asked in the first place. I would say I could turn off the ball valve and be at the pump in 5 seconds if I go quickly. And yes, it's a Mag Drive 7 pump.

Bob,
That sounds like a good idea too. I'm just not real familiar with the connections on relays and float switches though. If you can post a pic that would be awesome.

Ian,
The long term fix for me would be a super plus as well. Since this is a brand spankin new setup I just wanted to get some kind of comfort level. Oh, and in one of my other threads you asked about posting my pix to our HVreef website. That would be cool. Do I have to e-mail them to you or could you just take them from my gallery?

Chris,
What's the purpose of two switches, one being for redundency? Is it just a safety net? A fallback position so to speak?

Thanx everyone, all your help is really really appreciated.
Russ

[seaham358]

2 float switches one turns on and the other turns off if the first fails and the water level raises to the 2nd.
No relays just spliced into the extension cord.
Pic of wire spliced into cord..... Not the most professional of jobs. I'm sure Bob can comment on this.

[seaham358]

float switch in sump. I have it attached to a PH hanger. I have the plastic nut hot glued to the plastic PH hanger.

[masterswimmer]

Thanx Bob, just a little confused though. Are the red wires the float switch wires? What are the orangey looking taped up ends? Any other angles you can post?

Thanx,
Russ

[seaham358]

Red float switch wires
White is the extension cord
Orange are wire nuts and of course black tape.
Cut 1 wire on the cord and splice in the float switch. Takes 5 min to do. Float up breaks contact, float down makes contact.
on e-bay for I think $7 bucks, I won a bid on the 4 pack for $20 plus shipping. I want to have a few extras and I am also thinking of going with the double float switch method.

[andro]

No problem Russ, email them to me at andro@hvreef.org, they would be a better quality than the gallery on RC.

As for the long term, just wanted to get you thinking that you might want to keep thinking of long term options now since you haven't filled 'er up yet, you will have time to test things that you won't have the luxury of once it is all running. I know I with I thought more long term. But my sump would also go dry after evaporating 2 gallons of water, so I needed to think of something, your's might be a little better than mine in that aspect.

-Ian

[Tomzpc]

Originally posted by skearse
Leaving a ball valve closed on the discharge side of the pump wouldn't damage the pump, provide you don't deadhead the pump for too long (the time it takes to walk from room to room should be fine). The problem comes in when you deadhead the pump for too long, you end up burning out the bearings on the pump motor (or seal, but you are using a mag drive seal-less pump?).



Stacy sounds pretty positive here and that's what you were planning to do so I say what the heck, go for it. Worst case scenario is that you burn out a pump. Long term, you'll probably want to automate but you have as much time as you want to consider and research all of your options Russ.

[masterswimmer]

As always, my fellow HVreefers to the rescue.

Thanx guys,
My new nom de plum,
Wild Bill Cody