Questionable argument....

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Hi everyone-

I have heard arguments similar to the following one put forward (I have tried to make it as reasonable and coherent as possible for discussion purposes). I dislike the idea and think it's wrong, but don't really know on what grounds to object to it.

What do you all think?

Argument:
It's OK to keep a fish in a tank somewhat smaller than desirable and intend to keep it there for its entire life.

Take the case of the discus fish. Growing to dimensions of 6" long by about 8" high (or 8X10" for species I will not keep), it is recommended that they live in a tank of 40 gallons, 40" long and 20" high at minimum.

However, since in the wild they frequently can be found in isolated, debris-filled pools, stunted in growth, it is OK to keep one or two in my 30gallon breeder, dimensions 36" by 12" high and 18" wide.

I am not being excessively cruel. It is crealty wrong to keep a fish when full grown will barely fit in the tank. I'm not like the guy keeps a baby whale shark in a 20 galon tank and then forgets about it, or like the guy who keeps a yellow tang in a 20 gallon tank for its entire life.



Cheers,

KoAT

[DgenR8]

KingOfAll_Tyrants,
[welcome]

Here's my position, possibly less valid in fresh water where captive breeding is much more common.............
We take these animals from their natural environment, and keep them in small (relative term here) glass boxes for our enjoyment. I think we owe it to these animals to provide the best possible conditions, and NOT keep species that we are unable to provide reasonable quarters for.
I have kept discus' and know that they are not long range swimmers, they do appreciate taller tanks, and I kept them in a 75 gallon. I felt that was suitable for the 6 I had. A 90 gallon would have been better though.
I think proper research is the key. There are people out there that have spent much of their lives studying fish behavior, and many of them write books to pass their knowlege along to the hobbyist. Study the specific animals you wish to keep, and build a system around their needs.

[CaptiveReef]

Originally posted by KingOfAll_Tyrants
Hi everyone-

I have heard arguments similar to the following one put forward (I have tried to make it as reasonable and coherent as possible for discussion purposes). I dislike the idea and think it's wrong, but don't really know on what grounds to object to it.

What do you all think?




Cheers,

KoAT That size tank is fine, Discus are South American species they are found in warm slow moving pools, that are tinted and acidic due to the rotting vegetation. They are built to move easily through tall plant growth, I have a friend who breeds them in New Hampshire, he keeps 2 full size adults per 20 gallon tank with no problem. I suggest keeping them in clean slightly acidic water at 78 degrees.
When you add water to their tank make sure the water is put through an RO unit or tap water purifier to soften the water.
Discus do better in soft slightly acidic water, if the water is hard and alkaline it will effect their slime coat.


Welcome to Reef Central :D


:) CaptiveReef

[mmgm]

I beleive no tank can come close to the natural environment that fish live in the wild. After all, how can we compare even a 200+ gallon tank with the ocean? This is like a drop of water compared to all the space these fish have in their natural environment.

However, my question is How long do fish live in the wild compared to their lifespan in an aquarium? We all know how delicate and fragile fish are. Also, aside from space limitations how is their quality of life in the wild compared to in an aquarium?

Assuming we are dedicated hobbiests these fish are fed high nutrient foods on a daily basis. Also, they are promptly treated for any disease that occurs and kept in a very low stress environment. As a result they can live for years. Do they have this type of luxury in nature? I would think not. I would think they die much earlier due to predators or other natural causes compared to an aquarium.

Another question is do you think fish really know the difference? I don't think they are intelligent enough to know any better. As long as they are stress free, fed, and have excellent water conditions I think this is enough to keep them happily in captivity. After all no tank size can compare to the space the ocean has to offer these animals.

I think keeping fish in a tank is analogous to keeping a cat indoors it's entire life. Most outdoor cats do not live more than 5 years and end up as road pie or get beaten up by other animals. However, my indoor cats live 18 to 20 years in a stress free environment and never have to deal with cold, hunger or other natural events that would be harmful to them. This is like winning the lottery. In fact, the humane society recomends that cats should be kept indoors their entire lives. This is simply better for the animals. After a short period of time the cats become acclimated to living in close quarters and do not realize the difference. Its better for them.

Fish are not as intelligent as cats. this makes the argument that they are better off in well kept tanks even stronger....

Additionally, if limitations in space from captivity is not good for fish I would expect them to die very soon from the stress of living in cramped quarters. This never occurs in tanks that are well planned and kept stress free.....

JMO :D

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by mmgm
I beleive no tank can come close to the natural environment that fish live in the wild. After all, how can we compare even a 200+ gallon tank with the ocean?

But one thing you have to consider is the natural range of the fish, not necessarily it's entire potential space to move in. With that in mind, many fishes will spend their entire lives within an area smaller than that 200g tank. Do they notice the difference in size, other than the regular feedings and lack of predation?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point, but just putting another thing to think about in there.

Dave

[PRC]

I'm with Wolverine on this one. I think natural range is the most important criteria when considering tank size for a fish. I don't think a clownfish that would normally spend most of it's life within a few feet of it's host anemone is very stressed by the confines of a reasonably sized aquarium if all of it's other needs are being met.
I agree with alot of what mmgm said but I'm not too sure about a few of your points. I don't think keeping something alive is necessarily a good indicator of providing a good quality of life. Unfortunately we'd have to consult a reputable pet psychic to know our fishes true "quality of life" and I don't think they are readily available. You can keep many animals (including humans) alive for their entire average natural lifespan in captivity. I don't think that this necessarily means that they are happy.
I don't think that intelligence correlates very well with an animals adaptability to captivity either. I think dolphins, chimps and humans all adapt better to captivity than polar bears, tigers and sharks for instance. I'm not saying that I agree with keeping these animals in captivity, just that I think the former typically fare beter than the latter. By most accepted measures most dolphins, chimps and humans are more intelligent than most polar bears, tigers and sharks.
I think another major determinant of an animals adpatability to captivity is it's place in the food chain. Any animal at the bottom of the food chain probably spends a fair amount of it's life trying to avoid being eaten. I'd have to imagine that this contributes significantly to the animals stress level. I would think that placing these animals in a predator free aquarium would probably reduce their overall stress if all of their other needs are met.
On the other hand, I think fish at the top of the food chain probably don't get any great benefit from being in an aquarium other than maybe a steady supply of food. I don't think this is much of a benefit since I don't think that starvation is much of a concern for most fish. If anything I would think that not having the opportunity to hunt prey might be stressful for them.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Very interesting points given here. However, MMGM, I do not agree with you on the cat thing. My cat lived a healthy life til she was 18 years old and spent the majority of that time outside. Also I do beleive that fish are a lot more intelegent than you give them credit for. Thruout the 10 or so different tanks that I have had in the past 30 + years, all of the fish I kept knew me and the family members by sight. They knew when it was feeding time and where to go for the food. I've even had a large oscar that would allow me to rub it's side and a snowflake eel that would curl up in my hand and eat from my fingers without bitting me. I also had a brown headed eel that bit me once when feeding him. The next day as I went to feed him, I waited for him to try and take a bite out of my finger and then I lightley thumped him on the head. From that day forward, he would slowley come up to my hand and gently take the food offered in his mouth and wait for me to release it. This went on for several years before I got rid of the tank. So as I said, I beleive that the animals we keep in our glass boxes are far more inteligent than we think.
Also, I have been snorkling and diving on reefs and watched as the fish would dart in and out of the corals but always seemed to be within a small area that they claimed as their terriorty. Yes some of the larger fish will graze in large areas but for the most part, the ones we keep in our reefs claim only a small area which is comparable to the tanks we keep thim in.
I also beleive that the enviroment we keep them in does make a difference. I have had fish in a FO tank and they looked so so. But after moving them into a reef tank, they would color up nicely and become more active. I attribuite this to them feeling more "at home" because they were in a more natural setting. I have also witnessed this in my FW tank setups as well so I have always strived to create a natural looking enviroment for my tanks. i think we should all be striving for a natural look to help promote better health in our animals.
Granted some fish need a large area to swim in but for the most part, they are content to live in a small area. By small however, I do not imply that a large clown fish will be happy in a 5 gallon tank. I just don't think that because a fish lives in the ocean, it needs a 1000 + gallon tank to survive, but it does need a comfortable and pleasing home to live in. Just my 2 cents.

[mmgm]

Originally posted by Wolverine
But one thing you have to consider is the natural range of the fish, not necessarily it's entire potential space to move in.
Dave

Dave:

I couldn't agree with you more. The question I have is if the natural range of a fish is large can the fish adapt to a smaller tank in captivity?

From what I have seen the answer may be yes for many species of fish. This is provided the tank is not so small preventing the fish from manuvering around. An example is the hippo tang. In a natural environment Tangs are swimmers and can cover large areas in short periods of time. They also like to hide in rocks when not swimming. Not even a 200+ gallon tank can sufficiently provide the space these fish use in a natural environment. I've heard the argument of 7 feet minimum but logically it does not make sense to me. It seems to me 7 feet is nothing for a tang.

Based on many posts here at RC it appears to me Tangs can adapt to smaller swimming ranges provided by tanks as small as 75 gallons (4 feet long). Assuming these tanks are not over stocked many reefers have successfully kept tangs in 90 gallon and up tanks. I personally would not keep a Tang in less than a 90 gallon tank. :D However, some do successfully.....

In my opinion compared to the ocean there is very little difference in space between a 75 gallon and 200 gallon tank. One can only think fish like Tangs survive in captivity because they adopt to the environment........


Otherwise wouldn't they die? I don't think fish are intelligent enough to be happy or experience emotions. Instead I think they just react to stress..... When not stressed they probably go about normal behaivior for a fish.

Any opinions?

:rolleyes:

[brad_gholson]

completely of the subject but DgenR8 love the pic never forget

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by mmgm
In my opinion compared to the ocean there is very little difference in space between a 75 gallon and 200 gallon tank.

True, however that's only half of the issue. If you look at it from the other side, the 200g tank is almost 3X larger, and so from that standpoint the fish will notice a significant difference.
Try living in a 200 sg ft apartment, then try living in a 600 sq ft apartment. You'll likely find that both are too small, but you'll certainly appreciate the difference (yes, I know it's a far from perfect analogy).

Originally posted by mmgm
Otherwise wouldn't they die? I don't think fish are intelligent enough to be happy or experience emotions. Instead I think they just react to stress..... When not stressed they probably go about normal behaivior for a fish.


Well, that gets into a couple of other issues. One point is that, well, they do die. Many tangs die, and the small box stress is certainly a factor in that. This board actually often scews issues like this more towards the positive. People who are successful for long enough in the hobby find their way here (or to the other boards). Those who kill 2 or 3 tangs and then give up never get here.
Many of them are stressed, and if you compare their activity in our tanks, especially in smaller tanks, to their activity in nature, you will see a huge difference. Many behaviors that are "normal" aquarium behaviors are not necessarily natural, normal behaviors.

Dave

[sjvl51]

Originally posted by CaptiveReef

When you add water to their tank make sure the water is put through an RO unit or tap water purifier to soften the water.
Discus do better in soft slightly acidic water, if the water is hard and alkaline it will effect their slime coat.



:) CaptiveReef

So people don't misunderstand. When we use RO water, the salt mixture adds the essential minerals, etc that marine fish need to live that the RO removed. With fresh water aquariums, it is the same. You cannot use RO water in a fresh tank without adding the essential minerals - ie Cichlid Salts.

As for a tap water purifier, I cannot say as I don't know what it removes from the water.

For those what it's worth - I have been told (never checked into it) that the softening units that we use in our homes replace the calcium ions with sodium ions. To the fish, the water is just as hard as before the softening unit.

Vickie

[xxaquanutxx]

Originally posted by Wolverine
True, however that's only half of the issue. If you look at it from the other side, the 200g tank is almost 3X larger, and so from that standpoint the fish will notice a significant difference.
Try living in a 200 sg ft apartment, then try living in a 600 sq ft apartment. You'll likely find that both are too small, but you'll certainly appreciate the difference (yes, I know it's a far from behaviors.
Dave

But no one knows for a fact.. the size difference between a 200ft apt to a 600ft apt is in no way similar to the differences they go through in the ocean.. Think of it this way.. You live in your town, how far from it do you really travel?? ( not taking into consideration work and vacations because from what we know fish dont work or have vacations either.) So if you didnt have to work and didnt go on vacations would you suffer if the limits on your town were blocked off?? Just a thought

[gskidmor]

A little off the top, but in china, the average apartment is 239 sq feet (according to the news the other day). I don't know what it is in america, but china is an excellent example of an "animal" (i.e., humans) living successfully in a small enclosure and adapting well.

[SPC]

Originally posted by gskidmor
but china is an excellent example of an "animal" (i.e., humans) living successfully in a small enclosure and adapting well.

I have to ask, what is your definition of "adapting well" in this China example?

Steve

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by gskidmor
A little off the top, but in china, the average apartment is 239 sq feet (according to the news the other day). I don't know what it is in america, but china is an excellent example of an "animal" (i.e., humans) living successfully in a small enclosure and adapting well.

UH HUH, There is also an old Chinese custom of binding women's feet to keep them from growing. While that did keep the women's feet from getting to normal size, I think you'd be hard pressed to say it was a successful practice. Yes, women who's feet were bound managed to adapt, and walk on the misfigured appendages, but 'cmon!

[gskidmor]

There was the old american practice of enslaving black people too, and I think you would be hard pressed to say that was successful too.

I never said binding womens feet in China was successful. I don't even recall talking about binding womens feet in china.

Talking with the man from china in the cubicle next to me (my company has a contract with him company, so he's on temporary loan), he always tells me that American's apartments and houses are way too big (his reasoning being that American families seem so distant and closed off from each other).

I think what is happening here is you are trying to see the chinese world through American eyes. Could you or I adapt to something that small, i doubt it, but he's (weber is his name) having a hard time adapting to what he calls a huge apartment (720 sq ft)

[DgenR8]

Jerry,
Don't take that the wrong way. My point was just that "adapting" is not necessarily a good thing. You have a valid point about family closeness. but have to realize that although cramped to a certain degree when at home, these people can also go out. A fish does not have that luxury. My analogy was a bit extreme, but it was supposed to drive a point, not make you feel like I was attacking you.

[SPC]

Originally posted by gskidmor
Talking with the man from china in the cubicle next to me (my company has a contract with him company, so he's on temporary loan), he always tells me that American's apartments and houses are way too big (his reasoning being that American families seem so distant and closed off from each other).

I think what is happening here is you are trying to see the chinese world through American eyes. Could you or I adapt to something that small, i doubt it, but he's (weber is his name) having a hard time adapting to what he calls a huge apartment (720 sq ft)

Sorry, Jerry, but I don't buy any of this. The reason the majority of Chinese people live in small sq ft areas is simple economics, its all they can afford right now. When they can afford more sq ft, I would be willing to bet a dollar to a doughnut that they will jump on the chance. Ask your friend if there are any Chinese people living in larger sq ft homes. Ask him how many Chinese people own a car, TV, VCR, stereo system, garbage disposal, swimming pool, reef tank (trying to keep this post some what on topic:D ), etc... and if the majority of others would own these if they had the finances. If the answer is that many would own a larger sq ft living area along with all of the other goodies, then I say that they have adapted to their current situation but they haven't necessarily "adapted well".

You know, it hasen't been too many years ago that the majority of the American public lived in small quarters with no running water or electricity. Some still do in certain parts of the country and I would imagine that these families see more of each other on a daily basis than my family does. But again, I'd be willing to bet that if I offered the majority of these families the chance to have running water, electricity, more sq ft and a TV / VCR / X Box in seperate rooms of their new larger home they would jump all over this opportunity.
Steve

[gskidmor]

The reason they do is of little importance, the fact that they do is what matters (personally, I think it has more to do with population, lack of space, and the fact that they are just starting to modernize and hence have only just started to embrace high rise buildings). The whole argument of this thread is living space for fish, and I admit, I helped move it slightly off-topic:) I was saying that people would probably like to live in larger spaces too, but they do just fine living in small spaces also. I pointed to the chinese because 1) there are literally billions of them doing it (living in small spaces 2) I have personal contact with someone who can tell me whether or not he likes it (he does).

Now can the situation be improved, you bet. I imagine if he stays in america long enough, going back to China would be a bit unwelcome at first, but just like the fish, he will adapt to his "new" surroundings.

As for a fish's range, I wonder if fish like Tangs would need so much territory in the ocean if they could have all of their dietary needs (as well as things like mating rights, etc) met in a space equivalent to a 75 gallon tank?

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by xxaquanutxx
But no one knows for a fact.. the size difference between a 200ft apt to a 600ft apt is in no way similar to the differences they go through in the ocean.. Think of it this way.. You live in your town, how far from it do you really travel?? ( not taking into consideration work and vacations because from what we know fish dont work or have vacations either.) So if you didnt have to work and didnt go on vacations would you suffer if the limits on your town were blocked off?? Just a thought

I think you misunderstood my analogy, but that's OK.

To the point of what you're saying, obviously, if I never left my town, I would not suffer those limits. However, I can tell you, in keeping with that analogy, that the tangs I've followed around in the wild go far, far beyond the 'town limits' of any tanks that we build.

Dave

[SPC]

Originally posted by gskidmor
The reason they do is of little importance, the fact that they do is what matters

Not really, the fact that they do has nothing to do with "adapting well".

(personally, I think it has more to do with population, lack of space, and the fact that they are just starting to modernize and hence have only just started to embrace high rise buildings).

If it is a lack of space, then isn't this what we are talking about in relation to fish and tank size?


The whole argument of this thread is living space for fish, and I admit, I helped move it slightly off-topic I was saying that people would probably like to live in larger spaces too, but they do just fine living in small spaces also.

....and I think that is where we differ in our definitions of "adapting well" (not to mention the differences between the human brain and a fish).

I pointed to the chinese because 1) there are literally billions of them doing it (living in small spaces

Yes, but once again this does not necessarily = "adapting well". They live this way because they are forced to.

2) I have personal contact with someone who can tell me whether or not he likes it (he does).

...and I would say that this guy is either in denial or he is in the vast minority that feels this way.

Now can the situation be improved, you bet. I imagine if he stays in america long enough, going back to China would be a bit unwelcome at first, but just like the fish, he will adapt to his "new" surroundings.

Well IMO the odds are that the longer he stays in America the harder it will be to return to China. In fact, one does not have to look very far for proof of this, its in most of the neighborhoods that we live.

As for a fish's range, I wonder if fish like Tangs would need so much territory in the ocean if they could have all of their dietary needs (as well as things like mating rights, etc) met in a space equivalent to a 75 gallon tank?

Thats a good question and one that I have pondered myself. What I always come back to is the fact that they don't live this way in nature and my pondering ceases:D . They have evolved to live a certain way and I'm sure not going to change that by simply placing them in a fish tank in hopes that they will "adapt well". I can place two male Royal Grammas in my 180 in hopes that they will adapt to this situation, but the fact is that one is going to end up dead.
Steve