opinions on ick removal?

[yellowtruck75]

I need your guys opinions on ick removal. I have 6 tangs with ick in my 125. The tank is full of corals and inverts so that needs to be taken into consideration. What methods have you guys used in the past with success to remove ick?

[nixnutz]

Remove some of the tangs. Fish become more prone to ich when they are stressed. 6 tangs in a 125 is kinda too many especially if there's lots of rock and coral. It greatly reduces the volume of water present and can crowd them.

What are your water params? If water params are off it can cause stress which makes them prone to ich.

I've treated ich in the past with Greenex. Not endorsing it, just saying I've used it. One of the downfalls is that it turns all your airlines and clear plastic tubing blue. Also, when using greenex, you should raise the tank's temp a bit to increase the life cycle of the ich so your sure to catch it in the right stage. Temp change can affect corals, plus it doesn't work if you don't somehow reduce the stress on the fish.

Bottom line, if the fish are healthy and happy, they'll fight it off themselves, but if they're not, it will eventually kill them.

HTH
Rahn

[yellowtruck75]

Well taking out the tangs is out of the question.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
I need your guys opinions on ick removal. I have 6 tangs with ick in my 125. The tank is full of corals and inverts so that needs to be taken into consideration. What methods have you guys used in the past with success to remove ick?

Are they still eating? *Anecdotally* people swear by soaking flakes in pure garlic juice to help with ick. I've never had it in my tanks (jinx). How long have you had 6 tangs in a 125? Are there other fish in there too? Sounds like an huge bio-load for a 125, let alone tangs that like their cruising room. Do they get along with each other, or do they pick on each other? How're the water parameters? Sorry for all the questions, but the asnwers count.
Tagamet

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
Are they still eating? *Anecdotally* people swear by soaking flakes in pure garlic juice to help with ick. I've never had it in my tanks (jinx). How long have you had 6 tangs in a 125? Are there other fish in there too? Sounds like an huge bio-load for a 125, let alone tangs that like their cruising room. Do they get along with each other, or do they pick on each other? How're the water parameters? Sorry for all the questions, but the asnwers count.
Tagamet

Sorry, our posts must have been written at the same time. At least our answers matched (g).
Tagamet

[yellowtruck75]

The tangs get along great and rarely chase each other. They have been in together for a good 2 years. The only other fish I have is a false percula that never comes out of a large colt coral and a lawnmower blenny plus a small copper band butterfly to try to control my outragious aptasia problem. Up until about 3 weeks ago there were no probelms and everyone get together great. And yes they are still eating like the pigs they are.

[yellowtruck75]

What about the use of a UV does anyone use them anymore?

[Tagamet]

Trying the garlic juice/flakes won't do any harm. Even if it does help in the short term, as the tangs have grown, your bio-load has increased. Every tank's ability to process waste has an upper limit. It may well be that you've reached (or exceeded) that limit. Nature has a way of dealing with over-crowded tanks......
Sorry,
Tagamet

[nixnutz]

LOL...You know what they say about great minds ;)

Rahn

[nixnutz]

Consider the ich "natural selection" then. How long have they had ich? I vaguely remember you posting about this before.

The ich is basically eating them alive. They are little parasites that burrow into their flesh and eat. Then they burst into a "larval" type stage and multiply. This is the only is the time you can kill them. They then re-attach to the fish and the cycle starts again. Each time the number of parasites increases and the damage to your fish increases as well. Has it been getting worse since you posted about it Nov. 14th?

Rahn

[nixnutz]

Are we psychic or what? :rolleye1:

Rahn

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
What about the use of a UV does anyone use them anymore?

I had them on both tanks since they came with them when I bought the systems. I took them off.
Tagamet

[nixnutz]

UV will only get the ones that make it to the sump. You can't run the UV on the display tank, because it will adversly affect your corals and bacteria in the sandbed. Once again, until you reduce the stressors, you will not solve the problem.

Rahn

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by nixnutz
Are we psychic or what? :rolleye1:
Rahn

Two great minds with a single thought (heehee). Independent, consensual validation. Strong stuff.
Tagamet

[nixnutz]

I'm convinced...

Rahn

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by nixnutz
I'm convinced...

Rahn

Lol, now if we could just get Yellowtruck to listen...
Tagamet

[nixnutz]

If you've seen my post in the frag swap thread, I have 5 fish for trade/sale. I really love my Foxface and my wrasse, but I know if I keep them they're dead meat. ByTor tormented and harrassed me until I agreed that it was in the best interest of my fish and corals to remove some fish. I think I can live with finding them a good home where they won't be stressed (and I can visit them). Especially when I considered that the alternative involved pulling their faded, rotting and half-eaten carcasses out of the tank.

Food for thought....

Rahn

[seandanekind]

Doesn't anyone use nature anymore???

Skunk Cleaner Shrimp...

I had 6 yellow tanks in my 200. All got black ich in the 1st week. I kept adding cleaner shrimp, but finally figured out that my $10 dusky jawfish had feasted on $90 of shrimp in a month.

1 tang died. Then I finally got the jawfish out and put a new skunk cleaner in...

Less than a week later, all remaining tangs were clean, happy, and healthy.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by nixnutz
.......... Especially when I considered that the alternative involved pulling their faded, rotting and half-eaten carcasses out of the tank.
Food for thought....
Rahn

But on a lighter note, fish ARE 100% recyclable!

Tagamet
Nix - Kudos on making the correct, but tough decision.

[yellowtruck75]

The fish have not really changed since my original post on November 14th.

I want to get rid of maybe 3 of my tangs but over break I sugested the notion to my mom and she flipped saying how she bought them (Christmas gift 2 years ago) and I am not "Throwing them away" but in reality selling something is not throwing it away.

Oh and we can all blame my over population of tangs on Ron and Saltwater Heaven because he told me once that "Sure you can have that many tangs in your tank I have some customers who have at least 6-8 in a 55 gallon tank" yeah and who is out of business now. I wish I knew of Reefcentral 3 years ago and not Ron as my sole source of knowledge

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by seandanekind
Doesn't anyone use nature anymore???
Skunk Cleaner Shrimp...
I had 6 yellow tanks in my 200. All got black ich in the 1st week. I kept adding cleaner shrimp, but finally figured out that my $10 dusky jawfish had feasted on $90 of shrimp in a month.
1 tang died. Then I finally got the jawfish out and put a new skunk cleaner in...
Less than a week later, all remaining tangs were clean, happy, and healthy.

So Nature reduced your tang population by 20%. sure, cleaner shrimp help, but I don't think that would cause me to put 5 tangs in my eight foot 240 (300 gallon system). Nor do I think that Yellowtruck putting cleaner shrimp in a 125 with 6 tangs is a great idea.
JMO,
Tagamet

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
The fish have not really changed since my original post on November 14th.
I want to get rid of maybe 3 of my tangs but over break I sugested the notion to my mom and she flipped saying how she bought them (Christmas gift 2 years ago) and I am not "Throwing them away" but in reality selling something is not throwing it away.
Oh and we can all blame my over population of tangs on Ron and Saltwater Heaven because he told me once that "Sure you can have that many tangs in your tank I have some customers who have at least 6-8 in a 55 gallon tank" yeah and who is out of business now. I wish I knew of Reefcentral 3 years ago and not Ron as my sole source of knowledge

Geez, adding a mother AND Ron in the same problem. (Some would say thet Ron WAS a mother, but I won't go there....) Now THAT makes the cheese more binding. You could print out this thread and have her read it. Or you could ask her how many of the tangs, she needs to make a sandwich. (I know, sick, sick, sick. Med check time)
Tagamet

[nixnutz]

I can totally empathize. I listened to one person when I first started and I've discovered that it was a HUGE mistake. I made so many oopsies, including over-population, which have cost me lots of $$$$. This (RC) is where I go for the answers now (or call ByTor...LOL). Nothing better than 5 or 6 reefers arguing over who's right and posting all sorts of articles defending their respective positions. I can then read a bit and make my own decisions about what's best for MY tank.

BTW...the guy I first listened to is now almost out of business with respect to saltwater. His bad advice and over-pricing has put him out of the game. I don't know Ron and I'm not taking a shot at him, just trying to let you know that someone else has been there.

As far as a cleaner shrimp goes, it could work, but I fear that it's a temporary solution for two reasons. The first, as Tag said, is that those tangs are gonna grow and eventually overwhelm your bio-filtration which could result in another outbreak. The other reason is that the shrimp will be well fed from the existing parasites and might not even bother with the fish. If this has been there for 3 weeks, the parasites are getting ready to drop again (21 day cycle) which means they'll be in there 10 fold after they drop. The shrimp will eat what's most easily caught while the rest attach to the stressed fish to eat and start a new cycle. Either way, best of luck. I'm hoping that you and all the fish will be well.

Rahn

[Tagamet]

Yellowtruck,
I think I came up with a win/win solution for your situation. Have your momn buy you a used 300 gallon tank, or even a 220 with big sump. There are tons of used systems on RC and in the papershop classified. You might have to drive a bit to get it, but it's be cheap, big, and with a very good skimmer have a shot at maintaining the remaining tangs. You should still do the q-tank route to break the cycle, but I don't see many other options.
Just a thought. One other thought - PLEASE make sure Santa doesn't have any new fish on his list for Christmas!
Tagamet

[yellowtruck75]

I am gonna try some garlic for the food. Can that be purchased at the grocery store or can i only buy the stuff through the aquarium trade?

[yellowtruck75]

Alright I have made a decision.

I am going to take them out to treat them but I need advice on how to get 6 tangs out of a well stocked 125 reefs with out stressing them too much.

Second I am gonna sell them all except the powder blue and maybe one more so if anyone is looking for healthy tangs I will keep you posted.

Now I need a good site to learn what to do to cure them after I take them out.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
Alright I have made a decision.
I am going to take them out to treat them but I need advice on how to get 6 tangs out of a well stocked 125 reefs with out stressing them too much.

Not that the rest will be easy, but the hardest part was deciding to part with the tangs for their sake.
First get a hospital tank ready. You have the description of how they are set up. To capture, I've used a clear plastic container, like half of an overflow box, and start doing all the feeding in it. They'll eventually figure out which side is open (kinda comical). Have clear fishing line (monofilament) attached to the hole in the box and just boost it out when one of the critters is in it.

Second I am gonna sell them all except the powder blue and maybe one more so if anyone is looking for healthy tangs I will keep you posted.

You could post here on RC in the forum devoted to selling or the other one regarding trades. Of course, you need to mention the history, so the new parent makes sure to re-quaranteen the fish on arrival.

Now I need a good site to learn what to do to cure them after I take them out.

I think it's pretty much a matter of medicating in quaranteen, breaking the cycle, and building up their health. Just search RC. It's the best site available (IMO).
Good luck and Kudos!
Tagamet

[millisec]

I have several methods that work well but only probably one will work for you. Assuming the Tangs will eat flake food just go out and buy Tetra's antibiotic and/or antiparasite flake food (don't remember exact name). I've used many times and it works very well when fish are still eating. Feed them only that for 10-20 days.

[seandanekind]

Originally posted by Tagamet
So Nature reduced your tang population by 20%. sure, cleaner shrimp help, but I don't think that would cause me to put 5 tangs in my eight foot 240 (300 gallon system). Nor do I think that Yellowtruck putting cleaner shrimp in a 125 with 6 tangs is a great idea.
JMO,
Tagamet

NO. You're skewing the facts to support your viewpoint.

Actually, I've been out of town a lot lately, so the tangs were only eating 2 days a week. That man made stressor caused the ich and killed 20% of my yellow tangs. My creation of an artificial environment when a jawfish is in close proximity to it's favorite food (cleaner shrinp) is what killed the shrimp.

Once I got it arranged so that the shrimp are not being hunted, the natural relationship took over and they started cleaning the tangs. I asure you that the tangs are fat and happy and get along just fine in a 200 gallon tank.

I personally think trying a cleaner shrimp is a better option than adding chemicals to my tank.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by seandanekind
NO. You're skewing the facts to support your viewpoint.

Actually, I've been out of town a lot lately, so the tangs were only eating 2 days a week. That man made stressor caused the ich and killed 20% of my yellow tangs. My creation of an artificial environment when a jawfish is in close proximity to it's favorite food (cleaner shrinp) is what killed the shrimp.
Once I got it arranged so that the shrimp are not being hunted, the natural relationship took over and they started cleaning the tangs. I asure you that the tangs are fat and happy and get along just fine in a 200 gallon tank.
I personally think trying a cleaner shrimp is a better option than adding chemicals to my tank.

A) Isn't it just as viable a hypothesis that reducing the bioload by 20%, is what saved your remaining tangs?
B) I never suggested adding any chemicals to the tank, and have never added any "treatments" to my systems.
C) I didn't say cleaner shrimp were a bad thing, I said that it's better to not overload the tank in the first place.

Then again, I haven't overloaded my tanks, so ich hasn't been an issue. Given that you have more experience with ich, I will defer to your judgement.

If you think that cleaner shrimp will solve Yellowtrucks ich problems, he should simply add some cleaner shrimp and report back.
Tagamet

[yellowtruck75]

Na I have a cleaner shrimp and he is lazy and doesn't like to work very much.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
Na I have a cleaner shrimp and he is lazy and doesn't like to work very much.

Say it isn't SO! What's the next step, seandanekind?


Tagamet

[millisec]

Originally posted by yellowtruck75
Na I have a cleaner shrimp and he is lazy and doesn't like to work very much.

Hehehe... about all mine does is wait for me to stick my hand in so he can crawl up my arm and beg for shrimp pellets. Occasionally he cleans my lawnmower blenny when the fish gets real pushy.

[Tagamet]

What's the next step, seandanekind?


Tagamet

[nixnutz]

LOL @ Tag....My thoughts exactly.

Isn't one person imposing their individual opinion, as gospel, on someone else, how this problem started? As is the case in most reef aquarium "emergencies", the easiest fix rarely works, especially in the long run. Hasty efforts to fix something quickly and by the easiest method typically result in mortality and wasted money. ie...1 tang and $90 worth of shrimp. Unfortunately, that's how we learn or not, as the case may be.

I made just such a mistake last week. I decided it was time to remove my undergravel filter, which I installed on the advice of my FORMER mentor. Removal was a hasty, poorly planned decision and I paid for it. Anyone wanna guess what happened when I removed undergravel plates from a tank which had been established for over a year?? I'm sure someone here has done it and would have been able to warn me of the consequences. I'm too smart for them and what could possibly happen that I couldn't deal with?

Nitrates over 100 and a storm cloud which wouldn't quit! I spent the next four days changing water everyday (16 gals. each day) and carbon twice a day until I got it to an acceptable, but still not pristine level. Fortunately, I didn't kill any fish or corals. Some were on their way to the "big reef in the sky" and suffered damage, but none were lost. (Thanks for the help with that one ByTor....I know....I should have called you before I attempted that bonehead move)

The lesson I learned is ASK FIRST and consider everyone's opinions before deciding to try something. Usually if a significant majority agrees, then that's probably the best advice to follow. I think you've made the right decision yellowtruck. Best of luck.

Rahn

[yellowtruck75]

This will take some ttime and I don't have a refractometer yet but I will keep you guys posted.

[Tagamet]

What's the next step, seandanekind?

Tagamet

[bmkindig]

i never had a big saltwater ick problem when i did i just changed my carbon and did a water change(20%)and then i added extra stress coat which i use every time i add something to my tank.
on the other side of the coin i hear kick ick is the only reef safe chemicial out there for ick.
brad

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by nixnutz
UV will only get the ones that make it to the sump. You can't run the UV on the display tank, because it will adversly affect your corals and bacteria in the sandbed. Once again, until you reduce the stressors, you will not solve the problem.

Rahn

UV will not affect your corals or the bacteria in the sand bed. But it will only get the ones that make it through the UV sterilizer. We run UV 24/7 on the Penn State tank. It does help keep the ick outbreaks to few and far between.

Healthy fish will fight of ick infections, and there are some fish that are more resitant to it. However, tangs are the most suceptible to ick. With 6 tangs you might as well resign youreslf to fighting ick all the time, especially if you have any hippo tangs, powder blues, achillies tangs.

I have noticed that large swings in tank temperature always leads to ick on my achillies and hippo tang. With the onset of winter, my tank temperture now has larger temperature swings... and boom I amback to having ick. If the fish are healthy, and they have been in your system a long time they will usually get over it. Any medications are just a reciepe was disaster especially if you have corals. Hyposalinity seems to work, but not if you have a tank full of expensive coral.

Good luck. If it was my tank I would let it ride.

sanjay.

[Sanjay]

Just wanted to add, that I do not think having 6 tangs in a 125 is a good thing. it is a stressful stituation for them and stress is a major contributor to ich.

sanjay.

[yellowtruck75]

ok well this is how its gonna be I am gonna TRY to get my tangs out when i get done with finals on the 17th but in order to do hyposalinity then I need a refractometer. I am hoping that santa will bring me a refractometer ffor Christmas so it will have to wait until then to do it. Will the tangs be good isolated in a quarentee tank until after Christmas or should I treat them adifferent way in quarentee?