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View Full Version : How can I improve FRAG?


mx_tang
11/20/2003, 06:33 AM
Hi Guys,

Mike here. I was taking my weekly long run and thought a bit about FRAG. If you weren't at the past 2-3 meetings, let me just be the first to say that attendance was really low. With everything, you need work and energy to maintain something lest it begins to stagnate to the point of no return. The first few months of FRAG were really great:

1.) It allowed locals an outlet to network with other hobbyists.

2.) Became a source of education within the hobby.

3.) Allowed people to leverage enough buying power to initiate group buys.

4.) Gave locals an opportunity to exchange their corals, equipment, and services.

5.) Complement the DMS meetings.

Those goals were accomplished, but we need to start thinking about how to improve FRAG before it disbands or dissolves into nothing. Originally, the group of people who conceived this FRAG group thought that people should come and go as they please without any membership dues. Unfortunately, one drawback is that the organization is only as wealthy as its contributors (through physical goods, services, or education).

The first few months were a novelty; someplace new where people could come and do the meet and greet. Some people learned or received things(tangible or intangible) while others didn't. Eventually, people stopped coming because 1.) their purpose for coming to FRAG was met and they had no more use to attend, or 2.) their purpose for coming to FRAG wasn't met and decided not to come to future meetings. Either way, that's not a very good way to perpetuate/keep a club alive, and we need an incentive for people to join and attend. By doing this, we're actually strengthening our original goals, which benefit both the group and the individuals at large.

My first proposal is to have a short discussion and presentation at every meeting. We can map out available topics and speakers. Over the course of a year, this only accounts for 24 topics. Of course, we could have more, but this is just an idea. For the last 2 meetings, I've presented calcium reactors and nutrient export. I'm sure I could benefit from others volunteering for a topic of their own choosing and expertise in the field.

Secondly, I want to integrate an auction during each meeting. This will occur during the last 30 minutes, which encourages people to stay for the duration of the meeting. Also, it allows those who are late to still participate in the auction process. Attending members will donate one bag of corals, macroalgae, live sand, equipment, etc. The proceeds will be used to buy pizza and patronize the restaurant where we meet. If you don't have anything to auction, you can donate a nominal amount of money to "buy-into" the auction ($2-5). Again, this money will be used to buy items at the Round Table Pizza and give them business/appreciation for allowing us to meet bi-monthly in their meeting room free of charge. What we will do is give newbies a grace period where they are not required to "buy-into" the auction process for the first two meetings, but still enjoy the free drinks and food if they wish. You can bring as many auction materials as you like, but only one bag will be used 100% to help buy pizza and food, etc. In this way, if we have 20 people, The Round Table Pizza is guaranteed $40 in sales. I figure that's the least we can do to support them. The remaining bags will be auctioned and sellers will receive the majority of this money. A standard 25% will be deducted from each auctioned item to help FRAG with their operational start-up capital for a propagation project. So, let's say you have 11 bags of macro-algae that all sell for $2 each. You will donate one bag to FRAG and 25% of the remaining bags = $5. Altogether, you profit $15 and $7 goes to FRAG. If you don't have anything to auction, we just ask that you donate at least $2 to support the Round Table Pizza. In turn, we'll take whatever money from people attending and buy food with it. Since the auction is at the end, we'll do a head count and figure out how much pizza/food we can buy with the money raised from the auction. Heck, $2 isn't a lot to ask considering that they give us free drinks, which costs at least that much in the first place.

Third, I'd like to start a small co-op between specific local members with the capacity to propagate corals and attend at least half of the FRAG meetings. What we can do is have each member of the co-op propagate a defined species or coral and continually have a batch on hand for future auctions. The first phase of this co-op begins with redundant fragging between the main co-op locals, which allows a back up stock to exist solely for the purpose in the case of a catastrophic event or extenuating circumstances. Over time, after this redundant fragging and propagation is rooted, a "coral bank" will exist for other members to acquire. Not only can people bring anything they want to the auctions, but there will always be a few very nice corals (>$50/frag) in the auction.

Since some of these corals are very rare and may exceed $100/frag, it would not be fair to have the fraggers buy all of these corals out of pocket. Instead, we could generate some startup capital through auctions fees and possibly donations from other group members. If we had 50 active members who donated $10 to the project, then we'd have $500 right there. Then, if we auction $100 worth of livestock/equipment per meeting, that's another $25. Multiply that times 24 meetings and we have $600. Altogether, that's $1100 worth of corals we can buy to propagate. If 10-12 core co-op fraggers buy X dollars of corals with their own funds, then FRAG will match that amount to subsidize the project. Basically, this gives us $2200 to spend on the propagation project for year 1. If we buy corals at $50/each, on average, that's 44 new species we will have in Arizona dedicated to propagation. If we have 10-12 core co-op fraggers, that's only 4 corals each. In return, the co-op fraggers will get the 75% profit from whatever the market price for the specific coral at the auction for helping out the propagation project. However, they are asked to donate at least one piece of each type of coral within a specified amount of time (within 1 year).

Here's how I've thought it out after 5 years (I'm going to throw in 4 additional corals to the existing 44 just to make the numbers nice and even):

year 1

fragger A has coral 1-4
fragger B has coral 5-8
fragger C has coral 6-12
fragger D has coral 13-16
fragger E has coral 17-20
fragger F has coral 21-24
fragger G has coral 25-28
fragger H has coral 29-32
fragger I has coral 33-36
fragger J has coral 37-40
fragger K has coral 41-44
fragger L has coral 45-48

Have A-C frag each of their corals and give them to each other. Do the same for D-F, G-I, and J-L. My projection is that this will take roughly 6 months to one year just to lay down an initial foundation.

Year 2

$600 from auctions and zero from co-op. However, the corals should at least triple in size by now.
Use 100% of this money to buy 12 more corals for co-op.
Total species = 60

Year 3

$600 from auctions and sell 3 frags each of the 48 species from co-op (at 1/2 market value = $3600. FRAG gets 25% of this chunk to reinvest) = $900.
FRAG also gets 100% of each species to donate towards FRAG (at 1/2 market value) = $1200.
Total amount for year 3 = $2700.
Bank $2100 and use $600 to buy 12 more corals for co-op.
Total species = 72
Total money in FRAG account = $2700

Year 4

$600 from auctions and sell 3 frags each of the 60 species from co-op (25% of 1/2 market price) = $1125.
FRAG also gets 100% of each species to donate towards FRAG (at 1/2 market value) = $1500.
Total amount for year 4 = $3225.
Bank $2625 and use $600 to buy 12 more corals for co-op.
Total species = 84.
Total money in FRAG account = $4725

Year 5

$600 from auctions and sell 3 frags each of the 72 species from co-op = $1350.
FRAG also gets 100% of each species to donate towards FRAG (at 1/2 market value) = $1800.
Total amount for year 5 = $3750.
Total amount for year 1-5 = $8475.
We should decide whether 84 species is enough and which species has/have completely flooded the local market.
One course of action is to possibly sell excess corals online to generate more income for FRAG.

I didn't account for depreciation of corals when they flood the market, but I figure roughly 10% per year wouldn't be too far off. Even if these figures depreciate by 50% per year, it wouldn't matter because the model still holds up and generates enough income to maintain a variety of species or continue to collect additional species/year. The only real difference would be how much money the bank account would have in 5 years, since nearly $8500 is quite a bit of money and is really a best case scenario. However, even if we don't have a penny in the FRAG account, we still have spread over 50 species of corals which otherwise would not be readily available to the locals.

Although, if things really get going and if/when FRAG generates enough income, we can actually have a physical entity and hire people to oversee operations, etc. Pondering the future in 5 years is quite a long time from now, but at least it's wishful thinking. Also, the numbers I used were very optimistic. I really doubt someone is going to pay $25 for a coral when it is available online for $50. $15-20 is more realistic, but again, the model will still work, but on a much longer timeline to generate enough income to get a lot of diverse corals into Az. Another sticking point is whether FRAG can generate $100 gross per meeting; That would require ten people to sell ten items @ $10/each. However, I've seen as many as 30 people at FRAG and $10 isn't really a lot to ask for frags and such IMHO. Anyway, this is all just food for thought.

tendar
11/20/2003, 01:59 PM
Sounds great I am in.

dgin
11/20/2003, 03:03 PM
I'm game! Lets talk about it at the next FRAG (12/6).

BLUESMAN
11/20/2003, 03:27 PM
Mike you seize to amaze me!!!! That's a great idea!! Count me in!! I,too have noticed that the last few meetings were low in attendance. Let's make this "club" into something meaningful, where it can benefit the locals and the whole frag idea. Blue

AZDesertRat
11/20/2003, 04:28 PM
Ya,
What Mike said. Count me in once I get the new system up and running.

A.J.

maxima k2
11/20/2003, 09:08 PM
I am trying to find a job that lets me come to the meetings . As soon as I get one I will be there on a regular basis. Mike your idea is great, I cant wait till I can get another jod. As a side note I have a buddy that

maxima k2
11/20/2003, 09:11 PM
Sorry, new keyboard too many bells and whistles. Anyways he will be looking for ALOT of corals to fill his tank, I spoke to him and ten to twenty dollars a frag is a great deal. Hope to see you guys soon, Chris

conundrum
11/21/2003, 12:21 AM
Mike, you bring up alot of very good points. The coral fragging is a seperate issue that would require extensive organization and a leader to keep it on track long term. I would hesitate to expect to generate that much in sales from the meetings, but we should get together and see if it could be done more for the benefit of the group, despite huge sales or not. After all, they get some cool corals for some space in their tanks.

The issue of low attendance should be delt with first. I am guilty of missing quite a few meetings. I feel twice a month is a bit too often for the way the meetings are held at this time, by that I mean, I often choose not to go because

1- I have not arranged to trade with anyone.
2- The meetings are held, as was agreed, very loose and unstructured. To me this means the expectation of learning something is remote. I only know about half the people in the room, sort of, as it is hard to figure out who is who and their RC name or what experience they have, what tanks, etc. I find it very loud in the room and conversation is limited to who is around you.
3- I would very much like to hear of other's experience, good and bad, but this would require more structure so as to cary on a question and answer conversation that people feel free to join in and float from topic to topic in an interesting conversation and exchange of ideas. I feel this could only work with a leader to keep things rolling or moderate when needed.
For me, the wealth of info from the individual members could be a never ending source, hey, we all love our tanks and if you get most people going, will tell you about the many things that have worked or failed. I guess what I am suggesting is to try to be structured enough to allow everyone in the room to join in the conversation or feel free to ask a question and explore possible answers and opinions. I would show every time for that.

I don't have all the answers, but I bet we could come up with a few. Very good idea mike has with the short discussion and presentation at every meeting. I think that is the direction we should try.

pillions
11/22/2003, 01:09 AM
Mike,

Having a prepared "lesson" or "discussion topic" would pull me back to FRAG on a monthly basis. I don't necessarily know what I don't know, making it hard to discuss matters in a free roaming environment (That's no excuse, a studios person would pick a topic and venture out on their own to gather knowledge). Listening to someone's prepared discussion would be a valuable learning opportunity unto itself. Consider the ability to interact as a group and address questions on the topic makes it all the better.

mx_tang
11/22/2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by conundrum
Mike, you bring up alot of very good points. The coral fragging is a seperate issue that would require extensive organization and a leader to keep it on track long term. I would hesitate to expect to generate that much in sales from the meetings, but we should get together and see if it could be done more for the benefit of the group, despite huge sales or not. After all, they get some cool corals for some space in their tanks.

Hi Doug,

The coral propagation project will not even be in full swing until 2005, but I just wanted the group members at large to understand the direction we are going at the moment. I have already consulted with the interested parties and we're laying the foundation for it as we speak.

The sales projection that I mentioned are sheerly arbitrary; its purpose was to illustrate potential growth in the future and undergoing a vast project like this could benefit the FRAG members and Az locals. I've seen hundreds of dollars in corals change hands between people passing through FRAG and that's really where the idea was conceived. The auction process is only a medium of exchange, much like it was before, but on a more highly organized level.

I agree with having the group benefit as a whole and that is our main goal for the group. We, as a FRAG group, should always be looking out for the benefit of the group to find something mutually favorable. This will require some level of organization, which is suitable for a small group of people will carry out this undertaking. In this way, the people who have these corals in their tanks are putting in the most work, but they are also rewarded for their contribution to FRAG. In the end, you only get out what you invest (reoccurring theme).


The issue of low attendance should be delt with first. I am guilty of missing quite a few meetings. I feel twice a month is a bit too often for the way the meetings are held at this time, by that I mean, I often choose not to go because

1- I have not arranged to trade with anyone.
2- The meetings are held, as was agreed, very loose and unstructured. To me this means the expectation of learning something is remote. I only know about half the people in the room, sort of, as it is hard to figure out who is who and their RC name or what experience they have, what tanks, etc. I find it very loud in the room and conversation is limited to who is around you.
3- I would very much like to hear of other's experience, good and bad, but this would require more structure so as to cary on a question and answer conversation that people feel free to join in and float from topic to topic in an interesting conversation and exchange of ideas. I feel this could only work with a leader to keep things rolling or moderate when needed. [/B]

Meeting twice a month is often, but it has always been productive. You might not learn something new at every meeting, but perhaps someone can learn something new from you. I rarely trade with anyone, but I am usually found bringing something to the meetings,; this holds me accountable to make good on my arrangement with them and come to the meetings. I guess we all should hold some sort of accountability for this group, since it is what we make of it (reoccurring theme).

Perhaps structure might have something to do with it, but for every one person who says that they'd prefer that over a loose social gathering, I can tell you that 2 will say that's the exact opposite of what they want. So, what we've begun to do is have short presentations at these FRAG meetings. The last two topics discussed calcium reactors and nutrient export, which I posted in advance. For anyone who likes this type of activity or meeting, we have arranged a presentation for every meeting until the end of the year. What we've really done is cut the meetings into two distinct sections: The first hour is dedicated to the loose social gathering while the last hour becomes a discussion and presentation on a focused subject matter. This gives us the best of both worlds because anybody who doesn't wish to stay for the duration of the meeting is welcome to leave at any time. We will also allow people to come late if they only want to hear the discussion portion of the FRAG meeting. Later next year, we will allocate a third time slot for an auction, which will take up roughly 30 minutes, depending on how many items have been brought to the meetings.

Moderating the FRAG meetings has always been a sensitive issue. Although there are times the meeting room does get out of control, we felt that moderating it couldn't feasibly be incorporated into that mode of communication. This hasn't changed too much as of now, but during the discussion portion, people can direct questions and answers to the host presenter, which acts as an adjutant moderator for the FRAG discussion.


For me, the wealth of info from the individual members could be a never ending source, hey, we all love our tanks and if you get most people going, will tell you about the many things that have worked or failed. I guess what I am suggesting is to try to be structured enough to allow everyone in the room to join in the conversation or feel free to ask a question and explore possible answers and opinions. I would show every time for that.

The problem with having a structured Q&A jumping from individual to individual is mainly that of a time constraint. We did this at the first meeting and one individual ended up monopolizing the entire 2+ hour duration, which left some hobbyists with a sore ear. Then, other people who had questions had to table it to the next month where another individual would end up talking for the duration of the meeting. No matter how much we try, this just couldn't work, to be honest. If 50 people attend FRAG, the likelihood of even a fraction of the attendees getting to speak is fairly slim. While it would be great to dedicate a time slot for personal questions and gather around the campfire for story time, it would just take too long. This is why we felt that other resources, such as Reefcentral and other bbs helped fill that limitation that's imposed on a 2 hour meeting. If you have a problem or a story to tell, you are free to post online. This way, those who are interested in replying will do so and the ones who aren't interested will choose not to respond. This is the whole reason we made the FRAG forum...to complement the FRAG meetings.

I don't have all the answers, but I bet we could come up with a few. Very good idea mike has with the short discussion and presentation at every meeting. I think that is the direction we should try.

Well, we've already had very positive results from this short discussion/presentation and will continue to keep this in the regular FRAG meetings until we 1.) run out of topics or 2.) this discussion time falls out of favor with the FRAG members. If you'd like to do a short discussion for next year, let me know and I'll pencil you in. We could always use some fresh faces to help with this area of FRAG.

Originally posted by pillions
Mike,

Having a prepared "lesson" or "discussion topic" would pull me back to FRAG on a monthly basis. I don't necessarily know what I don't know, making it hard to discuss matters in a free roaming environment (That's no excuse, a studios person would pick a topic and venture out on their own to gather knowledge). Listening to someone's prepared discussion would be a valuable learning opportunity unto itself. Consider the ability to interact as a group and address questions on the topic makes it all the better.

We need 2 topics/month and they can range from just about anything that has to do with the marine hobby, so if you want to hear about something at the next meeting, let us know. One topic I'd really like to tackle would be taxonomy and correct scientific pronunciation of various corals, fish, and invertebrate names. Usually, I can sound them out, but if someone would be gracious enough to volunteer, that would be an awesome topic. It would be a reefkeepers hooked on latin phonics, if you will.

Thanks for all your input. It's definitely appreciated.

tleip
11/30/2003, 07:28 PM
Just a thought, as someone who has visited once, I'd propose that some of your established members take the lead to welcome/introduce visitors to the rest of the room.

The general impression to a visitor is a bunch of folks already engrossed in their own discussion circles and that you are almost intruding -- if you are looking to maintain/grow the club, you might want to consider the group dynamics in this area.

T

tendar
11/30/2003, 10:03 PM
Good point we really should do some thing along those lines so new people Know who is who and feel more welcome.

BLUESMAN
12/01/2003, 09:49 PM
Yeah, sorry about that...once we start talking, we tend to get loud and a little too focused on each other. I try to introduce new members when I see them. Will try to improve in that important area!! Next year should be an exciting year for us.....new ideas and hopefully some new reefers!! Blue