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kanankeban
10/23/2003, 05:09 PM
Hi guys,
So I'm starting to make plans for my following reef project...I will be building a house for that tank! LOL...:D but don't tell my wife, she thinks I'm building a house for her :eek1: .
Well the idea comes from a display I saw in The Ocean Center in Maui Hawaii. Where there is a surge pool that drains water via a water fall to a deeper tank with a inside display.
I want to build something similar but this is all interior in diference to the one in the ocean center where the surge pool is outside.
Well the idea is to have the surge pool (48x96x24") in a higher area, where a water fall arengment form the wall that faces the fish room will make surges of water goining into the sure pool, after this the water will drop to a depper tank located about 48" lower, this one with 48"x96"x70" , I guess the acrylic panels will be more that 1" thick or more. Form this last tank the water will overflow to the fish room that will be located besides the tanks arrangemement. All the tank system will be covered by a solarium, and the orientation of the tanks will be calculated in a 3d model for a sun study, to obtain the maximum of solar hours all year round, and the natural light will be suplemented with MH pendants. The estimated volume so far for the systems is about 500 for the first tank (surge pool) 1500 for the second tank (deep reef) and 500g for the sump and other 500g for propagations tanks, totaling about 3000g
Please post your comments, recomendations, or any information that my help me...or even if you think I'm crazy :rollface:
thanks in advance...and wish me luck!
Hector

Here are the preliminary sketches of the idea...
Floor plan and Lateral Section
http://www.reefcrafters.com/images/newproject/sketch2.jpg
Frontal Section
http://www.reefcrafters.com/images/newproject/sketch1.jpg

RedEyeReef
10/23/2003, 05:47 PM
I am assuming this will be out side and you live in a warm climate. I think it would be awsome, go for it.

Depending on your average out door temp, maybe try and use the ground (under ground pipes with adjustible water flow) to help control water temp.

If this is out doors, it would be so nice to not have to duplicate the sun (MH/VHO/T5/CF) for your corals and use the real thing?

Good Luck.

crescent1
10/23/2003, 06:09 PM
go for it hector and post lots of pictures. when will this madness start.

Chavo
10/23/2003, 06:11 PM
:o :eek:

kanankeban
10/23/2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by RedEyeReef
I am assuming this will be out side and you live in a warm climate. I think it would be awsome, go for it.

Depending on your average out door temp, maybe try and use the ground (under ground pipes with adjustible water flow) to help control water temp.

If this is out doors, it would be so nice to not have to duplicate the sun (MH/VHO/T5/CF) for your corals and use the real thing?

Good Luck.

It will be like a indoor garden, but with open vents in top in the solarium...the ideas of the underground pipes is an excelent idea I saw this idea with a guy that mounted a coral farm, don't remember his name i think it was here at reefcentral, or reefs.org...don't remember, but he buried lots ot feet of pvc pipe and got excleent results on water temp...
The idea is to use just sun light (the real thing), the mh pendants are for showing off the tank sometimes by night.
And one thing I have lots here...is sun! sun sun sun and more sun...its hell...the thing that got worried me more is the temp, but with underground pipes no problem.
Regards...

Algae Blenny
10/23/2003, 08:12 PM
Cant Wait to See This!:))

Twize
10/23/2003, 08:24 PM
Wowzers! :eek: I'm hoppin along for the ride on this one.
Can't wait to see this thing take shape! kanankeban? who would of guessed you were an architect? Great sketches:thumbsup:

kanankeban
10/23/2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Twize
Wowzers! :eek: I'm hoppin along for the ride on this one.
Can't wait to see this thing take shape! kanankeban? who would of guessed you were an architect? Great sketches:thumbsup:

Sure It will be done, but will take long, couple of years, hope 2 1/2" that's the time frame for my new home, but I will be posting sketches, models, and the engineering involved in the design and construction process, so this post will go for long time...hope reefcentral stays online :D just kidding.
Yours...I've seen...very nice humongous acrylic tank. So how it's going just a small advice, sure you have already taked into account but nothing to loose to mention it other time....Evaporation water is your worst night mear in a tank that size, takit into account, If you think your HVAC can take care of it, make sure you are adiced by a certified technichan, and not a bad idea to have a backup system or design build into the system to take care of the evap. in your tank...the first thing that pop when I went into your thread was the evap. issue...
Regards...
Hector

Twize
10/24/2003, 10:19 AM
Thx Hector for the advice. Yep, evap was one of many things that poped into my mind when I took on this project. ;)
Rgrds,
Ted

imbuggin
10/24/2003, 11:20 AM
I had a thought of one thing i may change in your design. If you rasied the water fall wall to make the drop larger you will have better circulation in the deep tank without adding more pumps.

kanankeban
10/24/2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by imbuggin
I had a thought of one thing i may change in your design. If you rasied the water fall wall to make the drop larger you will have better circulation in the deep tank without adding more pumps.

Thanks,
I think I colored with blue more that It should be...:rolleye1: The in the first drawing the water level looks just the same, but In my mind the way it is, is as you mention, there is a big waterfall in there to make some turbulence...not to much to generate lots of bubbles not to less to not make turbulence at all, I think I should work out a way to manage the level in the second tank, to make something possitive of this fact...the problem is that the overflow will be in this same tank...so I have to establish the level before construction...
Regards...
Hector

imbuggin
10/24/2003, 02:56 PM
you could always raise the wall after. Or even have a clear piece of plexi glass in the top tank against the "wall" on tracks to you could adjust it. Much like they do in small tanks with built in wet-dry filters. IE U.S. Aquariums does it on thier tanks. You probably would not even be able to see it.

Ken Sellick
10/25/2003, 03:25 PM
You should design a Hydrolic drop to increase circulation with out adding air from a waterfall.

kanankeban
10/25/2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Ken Sellick
You should design a Hydrolic drop to increase circulation with out adding air from a waterfall.

Hi, Ken
Could you explain furder on the Hydrolic drop, its sound quite interesting :cool:

By any chance is there someone around that has design and construction experience in public aquariums? I'm looking for some join details, on how to join a 1" to 2" acrylic panel to a concrete frame....
Regards...
Hector

skylsdale
10/27/2003, 12:11 PM
This might just be anal...but the idea of a SW waterfall sounds kind of weird to me. I like the idea of the surge...but in the form of a waterfall just seems to unnatural for me.

Ken Sellick
10/27/2003, 09:25 PM
A Hydrolic Drop allows you to gain energy "flow" without reaching terminal velocity that introduces air into the water. there are formulas for determining maximum curviture of flow based on velocity of your channel. Look into weir design in hydrolic engineering for formulas. I have some basic ones that work for me. Look at Ogee ramps in particular. I could probably talk you thru it.

capt. insano
10/29/2003, 09:45 PM
just taggin along

tyler
10/31/2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by skylsdale
This might just be anal...but the idea of a SW waterfall sounds kind of weird to me. I like the idea of the surge...but in the form of a waterfall just seems to unnatural for me.

no less natural than taking fish out of the ocean and putting them in little glass boxes...

Crusty Old Shellback
10/31/2003, 03:33 PM
BIG Project you got there. The underground cooling system people are talking about was in a thead on reefland by a guy out in Florida. he has pic's and all of how he did it. Don't remember his name but I'm sure if you go to their site you can find him and get some info on it. Good luck.

Tim
10/31/2003, 06:52 PM
his screen name is scubadude

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:00 PM
Heres a few pics from the Maui aquarium of what I think hes trying to copy... hope this helps with the visualization.

Arlan

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:00 PM
2 of 5

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:01 PM
3 of 5

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:01 PM
4 of 5

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:02 PM
5 of 5

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:04 PM
oops... heres 3 of 5 again

Undergrad
10/31/2003, 10:04 PM
and 4 of 5 again...

jorge
11/03/2003, 11:36 AM
One problem I see if this is indoors is the salt dust you will have from the surge. Do you have a plan on how to deal with this?

Jorge

skylsdale
11/04/2003, 02:29 PM
Is this waterfall going to be constantly running, or more of an on/off type thing...simulating surf crashing into the rock behind it?

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by blown63chevy
BIG Project you got there. The underground cooling system people are talking about was in a thead on reefland by a guy out in Florida. he has pic's and all of how he did it. Don't remember his name but I'm sure if you go to their site you can find him and get some info on it. Good luck.

That's the guy I know maked a underground pipe system work, I tagged along all that post...

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Undergrad
Heres a few pics from the Maui aquarium of what I think hes trying to copy... hope this helps with the visualization.

Arlan

yep, that's it...really nice don't you think...
pic 1,3,4,5 are the ones of the tank of my inspiration :D
pic 2 is for other tank, the first one when you enter to the left, as I remember the Ocean Center...
Regards...and thanks for the pics, I didn't take photos, but lots of video :D thank god

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by skylsdale
Is this waterfall going to be constantly running, or more of an on/off type thing...simulating surf crashing into the rock behind it?

It should be semi on and off as the water rises and go down because of the surge provided in the first tank.
With the surge goes on, aprox each 30-60 seconds or so (adjustable) the surge will go to the first tank, raising the water level to a point where the first tank will drop water into the deep tank (second one) via a "water fall" I put it this way because is actually a short water fall, I imagine it just 10 inches or so, so the salt creap should not be a great problem there, well I think. Any comments
Regards...
Hector

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by jorge
One problem I see if this is indoors is the salt dust you will have from the surge. Do you have a plan on how to deal with this?

Jorge

As the sketches, where do you think I could have problems with the salt creap?

Regards...
Hector

Corvettes&Fish
11/05/2003, 02:18 PM
That is cool! It simulates natural "zones" of the reef environement. You have to post pics when you get this done.

lllosingit
11/05/2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by blown63chevy
BIG Project you got there. The underground cooling system people are talking about was in a thead on reefland by a guy out in Florida. he has pic's and all of how he did it. Don't remember his name but I'm sure if you go to their site you can find him and get some info on it. Good luck. Originally posted by Tim
his screen name is scubadude

Scubadude is also a RC member http://reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2934

jorge
11/05/2003, 06:39 PM
Not with salt creep, but with salt dust. The surge is going to create a lot of air bubbles that when they "explode" in the surface will release salt. I have a 90g refugium (nothing compared to what you are planning) and had to cover the openings because all my tools (it is in the basement) were rusting. The water coming off the overflow a floor above had a lot of bubbles. That is my concern, but you might not have the problem.

Jorge

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by jorge
Not with salt creep, but with salt dust. The surge is going to create a lot of air bubbles that when they "explode" in the surface will release salt. I have a 90g refugium (nothing compared to what you are planning) and had to cover the openings because all my tools (it is in the basement) were rusting. The water coming off the overflow a floor above had a lot of bubbles. That is my concern, but you might not have the problem.

Jorge

Well, as ou see in the preliminary sketches the tank is inside of the home, but actually is in a way outside...the full tank system is covered by a glass solarium that is fixed to a permietral wall that will have some opening to the outside...the full system us enclosed by viewing panels...
let me try to make other sketch and I will post it...
Regards...
and thanks for the interest...
Hector

kanankeban
11/05/2003, 09:18 PM
well, :D some minutes of sketching...got to this, this is a 3d conceputal sketch of what I'm intending to create, please show me errors, flows or anything that looks roungh...

http://www.reefcrafters.com/images/newproject/3d-sketchcolor.jpg

Regards...
Hector

Corvettes&Fish
11/06/2003, 08:07 AM
WOW:eek2:

In the hallway is the tank viewing window at chest level, waist level or lower?

I like the stairs to the hallway

That is going to be some thick acrylic with viewing windows that big and that much water. Of course 1 inch acrylic is thick to me.

kanankeban
11/06/2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Corvettes&Fish
WOW:eek2:

In the hallway is the tank viewing window at chest level, waist level or lower?

I like the stairs to the hallway

That is going to be some thick acrylic with viewing windows that big and that much water. Of course 1 inch acrylic is thick to me.

Well, I mess the drawing, but the tank viewing form the hallway should be at chest level, it should be about 24" tall so maybe 3/4" acrylic will do, not in the deepr tank, because it will double to 48 inches or so....of water level, maybe I'll have to use 1.5" acrylic in the deep tank...

Regards...
Hector

Holokai
11/07/2003, 03:35 PM
Holy cow! That is damned impressive. good luck with that!

kanankeban
11/07/2003, 05:52 PM
miss posted...sorry

Chavo
11/09/2003, 01:05 PM
Definitivamente estás loco :D ;)

Suerte

karm40
11/09/2003, 01:20 PM
I would be worried about the heat from the solarium and don't forget about cleaning the plex and access to it. Looks like a great project!
Mark

kanankeban
11/09/2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by karm40
I would be worried about the heat from the solarium and don't forget about cleaning the plex and access to it. Looks like a great project!
Mark
I'm thinking of a 100% enclosed system, I mean that I can close hermetically. For really hot days, I was planning to have a window unit inside the solarium runned by a thermostat, my concern is the temperture diferencial between both sides of the viewing panles this is just for the air inside the solarium...the temperature of the water is not a great concern because I'll be using a geothermal system (lots of feet of pipe running water underground) thst should keep the water at a constant temp.
The plex of the solarium will be accesed from the roof, the roof will have a stair to acces it, and the plex panels should be designed so they can be removed for cleaning and manteinace.
so, guys keep ´posting your advices and opinions...thanks so much for them :D
Regards...
Hector

ddoering
11/09/2003, 03:51 PM
Hi,
Have you calculated costs on this part of the project? I want to build a home in the future and have a solarium on the south side, and have tanks in there that the internal wall to the great room is a big tank. In the solarium I want to do a tidal pool with possibly some mangroves as plants in the area, and have the room completely tiled with drains etc so it can be my mess room with a couple of prop and hospital tanks as well.

Cheers,
Doug

armac
11/09/2003, 05:36 PM
I am in Mcallen, but we spend some time in China, Nuevo Leon, pleas keep us posted on your progress. I would love to see it when it is complete. BTW where do you buy your livestock for your tanks? E-Aquatics?

karm40
11/09/2003, 06:51 PM
At one time I was exploring doing a geothermal type system. Just ran into problems with a lack of heat transfer from the ground into the pvc piping and titanium is cost prohibitive. Something to think about.
Mark

kanankeban
11/09/2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by ddoering
Hi,
Have you calculated costs on this part of the project? I want to build a home in the future and have a solarium on the south side, and have tanks in there that the internal wall to the great room is a big tank. In the solarium I want to do a tidal pool with possibly some mangroves as plants in the area, and have the room completely tiled with drains etc so it can be my mess room with a couple of prop and hospital tanks as well.

Cheers,
Doug
Costs! don't mention that please:D :eek1: , well I really think that costs will be much much less than expected to everybody, because I'm a 100% DIY guy, have the tools, and some time to do things, and I'm not in a rush :rollface:
I now for sure that the viewing panles will be not cheap, but much less than buying 4 sides custom tanks ranging in this sizes...
If you see the 3d ilustration, the wall that's on the back when you are viewing the tank from the hallway, is a "humid wall" I mean behind this wall is the fish room, I plan to have there a small study, propagation tanks, sumps and equipment....
By the way if you don't have architect for your future home, please consider me, that's what I do for living :D
Regards...
Hector

kanankeban
11/09/2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by armac
I am in Mcallen, but we spend some time in China, Nuevo Leon, pleas keep us posted on your progress. I would love to see it when it is complete. BTW where do you buy your livestock for your tanks? E-Aquatics?

Well I have bough some things of E-aquatics, but wops that guy prices are pretty expensive...and I don't thinks his livestock is very healty to say...I will not put a fish or coral of him in my tank. When it goes to livestock, not much to choose sometimes, but sometimes he has lots of stuff is Exotic Pet (Federico Gooes) you can tell the difference, he has a quite nice instalation there, UV's, god skiming, healty stock, etc...only bad thing is when he is not there, some guys that woks there are not servicial nor have good maners...but the thing changes when federico is there...he is a very good guy, the place is past E-aquatics in 10 st...1 block after Nolana St.
Regards...
Hector

kanankeban
11/09/2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by karm40
At one time I was exploring doing a geothermal type system. Just ran into problems with a lack of heat transfer from the ground into the pvc piping and titanium is cost prohibitive. Something to think about.
Mark

Karm40,
Did you actually tried the system, or did you go by the formulas, I've heard good results from a guy in Florida, aka Scubadude...please comment further on your experiencies, I'm very interested in knowing about them...
Regards...
Hector

armac
11/09/2003, 10:06 PM
I know exactly where you are talking about I work at Nolana and Tenth, with Texas State Bank. How often are you in Mcallen?

karm40
11/09/2003, 11:01 PM
never actually installed it. Just a lot of research. There are always reports. I also considered putting a large sump underground. So far, I haven't needed a chiller, but I think that would be my next step.
M

kanankeban
11/10/2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by armac
I know exactly where you are talking about I work at Nolana and Tenth, with Texas State Bank. How often are you in Mcallen?

Minimum one time per month...have to go to the bank.
Last time I bought a bicolor blenny and a bicolor dottyback from exotic pet, they are doing very well in the tank.
Regards...
Hector

[G]h0S']['
11/10/2003, 04:47 PM
beautiful sketch and concept. once you get this going successfully, i wouldnt doubt people out there (very wealthy people :lol: ) would be interested in consulting with you about designing one for them!

youngcoral
11/10/2003, 05:17 PM
Have you considered the problem with condensation building up on the viewing panels? I was in Key West this weekend and notice all of the resorts that had glass tanks in the open-air areas had a massive build up of condensation on the out side of the tanks when a storm came in. I am not a 100% but I believe acrylic would be a better choicer for your viewing panels due to their thermal transfer qualities. Especially if you have open air out side and A/C inside. Good luck

pamela-troy
11/12/2003, 12:09 PM
just taging along...this is going to be good one... best of luck and keep us posted.

Troy

mikrok
11/13/2003, 12:14 AM
amazing!...just tagging along :D

scubadude
11/15/2003, 09:05 AM
Hi Hector :)

First off this is a MARVELOUS Idea! I dont have alot of time to post right now but I will mention some key points. Temperature I have been to many parts of Mexico and Im expecting for the most part of the year you weather is fairly warm so you shouldnt have to worry about heating this system too much, your problem will be mostly in cooling. The way I see this system is that it is soo large that it will maintain the majority of its surrounding temperature which this can be tuff because from your drawings it looks as if some of the system will be below ground level and some of it will be above ground level. The below ground level will actually keep the system cooler. My conclusion to my Geo thermal u/ground system was that for every gallon of water that I had exposed to natural sunlight I had a gallon of water 6' underground circulating where it was avg'ing around 15degrees cooler thus balancing out my heat issues. I personally would have all my corals exposed to natural sunlight and it looks to me like you have it the other way around? Where the corals are underneath the system that is exposed to natural sunlight? Maybe im seeing the drawings wrong. I would like to understand more where your ground level is in all your drawings as well as if any systems are on top of another, thus shading the natural sunlight? are you gonna be using any other forms of lighting besides natural sunlight? I would also definately think about using a large air blower for circulation, skimming, etc. You will probably have to incorporate some type of shade cloth too for direct sunlight exposed corals. Dude have you even read Anthony Calfos book? If not then I wouldnt do anything else until you read it, he is the pioneer for leading the way in projects like this. Here is my thread on my Greenhouse if you havent seen it already

http://www.reefland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6763


Rocky

Reefdude3
11/15/2003, 10:38 AM
Wow Hector!
Truly an inspiration, I'll definitly be tagging along! Are you sure you don't want to add a 300gal nano hob fuge? :D
Jk... but good luck!!!

H20ENG
11/15/2003, 05:46 PM
By any chance is there someone around that has design and construction experience in public aquariums?
Hector,
I used to run the engineering / life support dept at a public aquarium. Ask away.
Looks like you are on the right track, and good ideas and opinions by others posted as well.
You will need a strong foundation of rebar, chicken wire, and concrete. You really dont neeed the plastic coated rebar, as you'll waterproof the whole thing.
We had some large touchpools done by a big company. They framed it up with the rebar, bent to form the artificial rockwork.(basically you are building an inside out swimming pool) It was gridded out at about 12" gridlines. I added all the plumbing at this stage.
Then the chicken wire was wire tied on top of that. Concrete was blown over the surface and trowelled smooth. Then the waterproofers coated the whole thing with urethane. After several days cure time, the second coat of concrete was shot on. 4 people then scrambled all over the structure while the concrete was still green, carving and shaping it into artificial rockwork. They used acid stain, and diluted acrylic paint to color it. Looks just like the rockwork in the Maui center pics above.
These did not contain acrylic panels, and you can get the same effect with fiberglass (GFRC) rockwork. A little tough to DIY, but can be done.
Our tanks with viewing panels were made with cast walls and fronts, heavily rebarred. The tanks were waterproofed, then the acrylic anchor bolted to the concrete from the inside with 316ss bolts. The panels were sealed first with Dow 795, bolted up, then the edges sealed with more 795. The anchor bolts were sealed over with thickened epoxy. The panels need to be 6-8" wider and about4-6" taller than the viewing area to account for this "flange".
I think you will do fine with the geothermal chiller. A skylight roof overhead will be great. You definitely will need ventilation in there, and please keep this room separate from the rest of the house, even if you build the room around it. What about pumping, filtration, and skimming. Definitely DIY your filters. You dont need the huge RK2 (DIY for MUCH cheaper).
hth,
Chris

scubadude
11/17/2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by H20ENG
and please keep this room separate from the rest of the house, even if you build the room around it. What about pumping, filtration, and skimming. Definitely DIY your filters. You dont need the huge RK2 (DIY for MUCH cheaper).
hth,
Chris

I definately agree w/ Chris on this DIY as much as you can and try to keep everything seperate from the house. God forbid you have a leak but if you do chances are better that you will remain married if it doesnt spill into your house :D

kanankeban
11/17/2003, 04:21 PM
have been to many parts of Mexico and Im expecting for the most part of the year you weather is fairly warm so you shouldnt have to worry about heating this system too much, your problem will be mostly in cooling

First of all thanks, for you response...:D, Well as you mention, you are quite right, In the city where I live (Monterrey) is very hot most all year round, just some days in December and January could turn really cold. One of the main problems in temp. here is suden changes I mean in a day you could be 24 C and a few our later 8 C, well that's in winter...in summer you will be in hell most of the time 35-45 C. So yes mainly the problem will be cooling.


The way I see this system is that it is soo large that it will maintain the majority of its surrounding temperature which this can be tuff because from your drawings it looks as if some of the system will be below ground level and some of it will be above ground level.

Actually all the system is above ground level. it seems like one part is below, but not, all the system is above...


My conclusion to my Geo thermal u/ground system was that for every gallon of water that I had exposed to natural sunlight I had a gallon of water 6' underground circulating where it was avg'ing around 15degrees cooler thus balancing out my heat issues.

So the proper relation is 1g:1g@6ft underground? What kind of pipe did ou use (sch)? and which diameter, and I imagine that flow is important? did you experimented in reducing and increasing flow velocity to see how water temp changed?

I personally would have all my corals exposed to natural sunlight and it looks to me like you have it the other way around? Where the corals are underneath the system that is exposed to natural sunlight? Maybe im seeing the drawings wrong. I would like to understand more where your ground level is in all your drawings as well as if any systems are on top of another, thus shading the natural sunlight? are you gonna be using any other forms of lighting besides natural sunlight?

To make it simple you can look at the all the system as two separate tanks:
1. the surge zone tank, aprox. 96"x48"x24"H wher I plan to put in the corals with more requirments of light. note, that both thanks are fully open in the top to the solarium.
2. the deep tank, aprox. 96"x48"x48"H, water drops in a short water fall from the surge zone tank. In this tank I plan to keep coral with less fotosynthetic requirments.
So just look at the system like to separate tanks one droping water into another, one 24" height and the other 48" height.
Sun light will be optimized with means of orientation. With some architectural modeling programs I use, I can model all the system in 3D, throw in the lattitude position the model correct to the north, and :D you'll have a solar simulation....I can also come to the boring hand calculation using some graphs I lerned to use while studing architecture...:eek1: no, no, no...but I prefer the 3d option:D About additional light, I plan to design some kind of rtractable structure with metal halides and actinics as supplemental light when needed or when showing off:bum: the tank to friends and familiy while reunions and parties....:D I like those....

I would also definately think about using a large air blower for circulation, skimming, etc.
Could you explaind further this comment, never used a large air blower for circulation or skimming, do you suggest to make a big venturi based skimmer...? And circulation? how do you acomplish water circulation with a blower?:confused: water lifts?

You will probably have to incorporate some type of shade cloth too for direct sunlight exposed corals. Dude have you even read Anthony Calfos book?

Dude, this will be before anthony calfo, and after Hector Quintanilla:lol: just kidding :D yep, I have it in my hand right now...you mean the one with a serial number in it? mine is 3573 :D or is ther other one?
About the shades, I plan to modify some blind home system and substitude the cloth for the shades used in plant solariums.

Well thnaks, for your comments, and keep them coming...
Hector

kanankeban
11/17/2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Reefdude3
Wow Hector!
Truly an inspiration, I'll definitly be tagging along! Are you sure you don't want to add a 300gal nano hob fuge? :D
Jk... but good luck!!!
yeap, besides the system there will be fish room (my refugium, that's for me :D) with big rubbermaid sump, and a propagation systems with a few small tanks. this room will have direct acces to the outside of the house.
Regards...
Hector

kanankeban
11/17/2003, 05:08 PM
Chris,
Thanks for your input, very good info...

You will need a strong foundation of rebar, chicken wire, and concrete. You really dont neeed the plastic coated rebar, as you'll waterproof the whole thing.

Thinking in none more less that this, thank god :D I went to architecture school, here in Mexico we think concrete :D Our construction system tends to do everything in concrete. So concrete for us is like using sheet rock or wood framing for americans. Actually I plan to do all the system in hydraulic concrete with some additives for waterproffing, after that I plan to use other type of mortar with some additives for rock sculpting, finally a expoxy finish...to be honest I know that's this is the way to go, but I have to run lots of probes before finding the right receipe for the outer shell.


Our tanks with viewing panels were made with cast walls and fronts, heavily rebarred. The tanks were waterproofed, then the acrylic anchor bolted to the concrete from the inside with 316ss bolts. The panels were sealed first with Dow 795, bolted up, then the edges sealed with more 795. The anchor bolts were sealed over with thickened epoxy. The panels need to be 6-8" wider and about4-6" taller than the viewing area to account for this "flange

Do you know how to calculate the number of bolts and the spacing between them? And do you know how to figure out the maxium torque to use when tightening the bolts to acrylic to prevent a crack of the acrylic panel.?

A skylight roof overhead will be great. You definitely will need ventilation in there, and please keep this room separate from the rest of the house, even if you build the room around it. What about pumping, filtration, and skimming. Definitely DIY your filters. You dont need the huge RK2 (DIY for MUCH cheaper).
hth,

The skylight is a must, and as I mention earlier the orientation will be calculated to get the most of sunlight posible, I have seem some tracking reflectors in a building proyect, this will be a great addition, it tracks the light of the sun, but this one, I should leave it for last...
The room is in a way inside of the house but fully enlosed, venting to the outside.
DIY is my motto, so DIY should be, In a way all the system will be DIY, because I construct buildings for living, this should go into my portafolio :D
Regards...
Hector

H20ENG
11/17/2003, 09:51 PM
Hector,
Sorry I dont have a formula for the spacing of the bolts. Ours were every 6-8 inches apart. I would caulk the joint well, tighten the bolts till all air is expelled, and wait till it cures. After curing, tighten just a bit more to give a good squish to the "gasket".
Our acrylic was 1-1/8" thick and spanned about 5-6'. Sealed on sides and bottom to the concrete risers. The top was just in open air, like in your drawings.
hth,
Chris

kanankeban
11/18/2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by H20ENG
Hector,
Sorry I dont have a formula for the spacing of the bolts. Ours were every 6-8 inches apart. I would caulk the joint well, tighten the bolts till all air is expelled, and wait till it cures. After curing, tighten just a bit more to give a good squish to the "gasket".
Our acrylic was 1-1/8" thick and spanned about 5-6'. Sealed on sides and bottom to the concrete risers. The top was just in open air, like in your drawings.
hth,
Chris

Chris,
This tank you are taking about, how many gallons it contained? you mention 5-6ft span, what height?
And what kind of acrylic is a good choice, the bullet proof one? or a regular cast will do?
Are the anchors regular steel expansors?
Do you know about some kind of sandwishing glass to acrylic in one or bott sides, I guess they have very different expansion and contraction coeficients, acrylic is really a pain to clean...
Regards...
Hector

Shoestring Reefer
11/18/2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by H20ENG

Our tanks with viewing panels were made with cast walls and fronts, heavily rebarred. The tanks were waterproofed, then the acrylic anchor bolted to the concrete from the inside with 316ss bolts. The panels were sealed first with Dow 795, bolted up, then the edges sealed with more 795. The anchor bolts were sealed over with thickened epoxy. The panels need to be 6-8" wider and about4-6" taller than the viewing area to account for this "flange".

What size windows was this for (W x H)? 4' x 8' sheets, or some other size? What was used for cement? Do you know the name of the contractor? How thick are the walls?

Basically, a 4' x 8' (H x W) panel would yiels a 3' x 6' 8" panel?

AuroraDave
11/18/2003, 06:01 PM
We visited the new Wild Reef exhibit @ The Shedd Aquarium this weekend and they have a similar set-up, although it isnt fully enclosed. The acrylic walls for the lower tank are about 3" thick and 3 1/2 to 4 feet high.

Anyway, their surge / waterfall isn't a straight vertical drop-off. It surges out horizontally over several feet of rock, almost like a short stream. This sends a nice surge through-out the tank, without a lot of high water splashing.

H20ENG
11/18/2003, 06:21 PM
"This tank you are taking about, how many gallons it contained?"
Hard to tell with all the artificial rockwork, but well over 1000 in one and 2500 in the other.

"you mention 5-6ft span, what height?
And what kind of acrylic is a good choice, the bullet proof one? or a regular cast will do?"
36 - 40" IIRC. I'd use cast, its themost dense and will resist bowing the best. Get your wallet out :)

"Are the anchors regular steel expansors?"
316 Stainless concrete anchors. 3/8" Anchor bolts. Yes, the pound in expanding type. They were bolted up, then epoxied over for waterproofing.

"Do you know about some kind of sandwishing glass to acrylic in one or bott sides, I guess they have very different expansion and contraction coeficients, acrylic is really a pain to clean..."
I've heard of this, but the expansion rates are different, so not sure if its really feasible.
Chris

H20ENG
11/18/2003, 06:33 PM
What size windows was this for (W x H)? 4' x 8' sheets, or some other size? What was used for cement? Do you know the name of the contractor? How thick are the walls?
It was 4 x 8' or less. Maybe 4 x 6'. Its been a while. The sheets were I think 1-1/4" thick, but probably should have been 1-1/2". There was a slight bow, but not huge. Maybe 1/2" over the span.
I think 6000psi concrete was used, and the walls and face frame was 12" thick.
It was done in house, not contracted.
Some companies that do this are Larson out of AZ, & David L. Manwarren Corp of So Cal. I used to know a bunch of others, but have not been in that biz for a few years now. There are many more companies than there used to be, what with those DIY rock videos on late night infomercials! :D
We used fiberglass tanks by Waterdog Products of San Diego (I think). These tanks are works of art! Super thick fiberglass, and very well built. Many public aquariums use them, including Monterey Bay.
Letting all the secrets out again,;)
Chris

H20ENG
11/18/2003, 06:52 PM
From dlmanwarren.com - Lisbon, Spain
http://www.dlmanwarren.com/images/lisbon_puffigoodl_projects.jpg

H20ENG
11/18/2003, 07:00 PM
Here is a GREAT list of pros in the zoo / aquarium industry.
http://www.aza.org/ConfWork/AnConExhibitors2003/

scubadude
11/18/2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by kanankeban
[B]So the proper relation is 1g:1g@6ft underground? What kind of pipe did ou use (sch)? and which diameter, and I imagine that flow is important? did you experimented in reducing and increasing flow velocity to see how water temp changed?


That is correct on the "relation". I used 4" Thinwall PVC but be carefull if you use this as it has a crush LB rating so when you bury that 6' underground do a slow gradual bury on it dont just dump all the dirt onto the thermal pipes at once. Also hopefully you will be in the waterline at that depth, which means it will definately be cooler but you will need to work quick because once you dig that deep the trench will start to cave in from the waterlevel :D FWIW I have on my thread somewhere how many gallons is in a foot of 4" thinwall PVC pipe so you could calculate how much you would need.


To make it simple you can look at...........Sun light will be optimized with means of orientation. ..........I plan to design some kind of rtractable structure with metal halides and actinics as supplemental light when needed or when showing off:bum: the tank to friends and familiy while reunions and parties....:D


I understand the layout now of the sunlight, and it sounds like you have that pretty well conquered! As far as the retractable MH and Actinics I really like that Idea but I do believe you will have enough lighting with the natural sunlight, I would definately go for the retractable (as long as its your money :D ) actinics but I would hold off on the MH's until you see what mother nature does for you


Could you explaind further this comment, never used a large air blower for circulation or skimming, do you suggest to make a big venturi based skimmer...? And circulation? how do you acomplish water circulation with a blower?:confused: water lifts?


Sure! first off here is some specifics on the skimmer design that I use in my Greenhouse

http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/diy6inskimmer.htm

and here is a design on air (water) lifts, Yes for circulation

http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/diyairlift.htm

The skimmer is a Counter Current skimmer, and IMO they are the most effecient for a setup of this size. if you do decide to go with these 2 concepts then dont screw around trying to cut cost on an airblower, get yourself a really good heavy duty one like a sweetwater or gast. Let me know if you need some links and model numbers for me to recommend to ya. IMO you are wasting energy and money if you use a Venturi or Beckett style skimmer


About the shades, I plan to modify some blind home system and substitude the cloth for the shades used in plant solariums.


There are some really kewl shadecloths now on the market I have a buddy of mine that says he got some shade cloth that actually makes dull yellow light look more blue, like changing a Iwasaki bulb to a Radium :eek: , which might be interesting for a poor mans approach to more actinic at the same time toning down your light intensity?!

Dude I would love to come to one of your partys after you get this all setup and check this gig out (like I need an excuse to go to Mexico)! Keep on plugging away, and it will be a great and awesome feat!

kanankeban
11/18/2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by H20ENG
From dlmanwarren.com - Lisbon, Spain
http://www.dlmanwarren.com/images/lisbon_puffigoodl_projects.jpg

Holly COW....that's a nice design.....

H20ENG
11/18/2003, 08:39 PM
Hector,
Check out www.areainc.com for good airlift info. Site seems buggy right now though.

H20ENG
11/26/2003, 08:00 PM
Any updates?

kanankeban
11/26/2003, 08:24 PM
It turns out that I will have a new frag, and the most expensive of all, I'll be father in 8 months!!!!!:D that's the update :lol: My head is not thinking very well right know :rollface: I'm thinking that I'll have to work harder, and cut some expenses...:rolleyes: maybe I should cut 1000G of the tank :D o go for a nano...just kidding
Regards...
Hector

H20ENG
11/26/2003, 08:41 PM
Congrats!!! I have a 2 yo and it has been soooo fun!
Be sure to take care of the "broodstock" while waiting for the lil frag!:D
Ok, How about a lagoon with a plexiglass cover for the babies room floor?

kanankeban
11/28/2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by H20ENG
Congrats!!! I have a 2 yo and it has been soooo fun!
Be sure to take care of the "broodstock" while waiting for the lil frag!:D
Ok, How about a lagoon with a plexiglass cover for the babies room floor?

Well the plan of the large tank is for the new home...to be constructed in about 1-1/2" years. Maybe earlier as the wife will start to ask for it :eek2: . Right know I'm thinking if how to make the actual tank child safe :confused: locks in the door stands, hided electric outlets...etc...or even thinking to do the worst thing imagineable...take the tank to other place...office, I like the tank at home so got to do some adaptations soon...or else :rolleyes:
The pond idea seems good...in the big tank idea, I'm really considering puting it in other place, The first Idea was for viewing from the living room and dinner room, so now I have to figure out how to design it in a way that It could be seen from the tv-game room. In this stage is kind of difficult to design the tank without the home designed some all primary sketches area ideas that should come very similar if done.
Regards..
Hector

invincible569
11/28/2003, 04:50 PM
You really have to come to Houston, TX and visit the new Aquarium restaurant. They have a special exhibit with nothing but tanks like that!! They are all see through and with different ideas and designs!! I was very impressed and it takes a lot to impress me! :)

http://www.downtownaquarium.com/aquariumAdventure.htm

minfinger
12/09/2003, 10:10 AM
As long as there's only one way to gain access to the Fish Room and behind the scenes stuff, put a Dead bolt on it and use a Key. Then your kid(s) won't be able to get in there until there old enough to know better.

bluenosedshellback
12/09/2003, 11:01 PM
Actually, this sort of set up could be similar to a lagoon or tide pool fed by waves coming in then followed by the pool dumping the excess back into the sea. Think of cliffs and caves......
I think this is an awesome set-up and can not wait to see it through to operation. I love this sort of outside the box thinking and home aquaria... Fish room????? Pssshhhh...more like Fish house.

bluenosedshellback
12/09/2003, 11:31 PM
looks like I am a bit late on the train here.....I did not look to see how many posts were attached to this thread until after I posted my comments.....oh well. Love the ideas though and will be keeping tabs on this.

getwet
12/24/2003, 09:30 AM
Which book by Calfo, I'd love some light reading

commandertekki
12/24/2003, 03:03 PM
tag

kanankeban
12/24/2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by getwet
Which book by Calfo, I'd love some light reading

If you refer to the book mentioned by scubadude....is this one

Book of Coral Propagation, Volume 1: Reef Gardening for Aquarists
by Anthony Rosario Calfo

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0971637105/qid=1072299991//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/104-2275998-5021539?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Great books I bought it some time ago...the serial number in my book is 3573

Anxioslly waiting for volume II to come out :smokin:

Regards...
Hector

getwet
12/25/2003, 05:30 AM
Thanks Hector, that is the one I was asking about. I likely missed it because I don't often pay too much attention to coral propagation.

Good luck on the aquarium....errr house. I actually have wanted to do something like that for sometime, but lacking funds and space =). It's the classic setup to some degree, a shallow reef connected to the cliff/open-ocean tank, with the refuge serving as the mangrove/grass beds. The complete ecosystem.

Anyway, we'll all plan on coming over in 2006 for the grand opening.

Don

psycho_clown
01/04/2004, 11:33 PM
tag can't what to see it finished, great idea Hector

ken and mel
01/11/2004, 02:03 AM
just watching and reading...I LOVE THIS IDEA!!

gwrulzmylife
05/05/2004, 03:26 PM
great idea, can't wait to see the completed tank!

SOMEthinsFISHY
05/06/2004, 10:10 PM
this will become an awesome project !!

SOMEthinsFISHY
05/06/2004, 10:10 PM
this will become an awesome project !!

Jean-yus
07/02/2004, 02:31 AM
This Was a Very long time ago...

Anyone know if anything happened with this project?

Dur-Bump

SOMEthinsFISHY
07/02/2004, 05:07 AM
invincible can u fix that link ??

kanankeban
07/19/2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Jean-yus
This Was a Very long time ago...

Anyone know if anything happened with this project?

Dur-Bump

Hi...
The idea still lives :D
I just saving for the new home, I got the land...now I have to save for the construction. As I mentioned earlier this is a long term project...as someone can say...Is a live achievement project :p . Sure it will be done, but have to wait minimum 2 years more.

Piero
07/19/2004, 08:34 PM
Those are some really inspiring sketches!!

it's really a great idea on paper...but practically...it looks like access and maintenance is not realistic.

Maybe I didn't read through the whole thread..sorry if i missed this, but...how would you expect to access the bottom of the display, clean the glass, etc?

SOMEthinsFISHY
07/19/2004, 10:09 PM
well keep ud posted !

kanankeban
07/19/2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Piero
Those are some really inspiring sketches!!

it's really a great idea on paper...but practically...it looks like access and maintenance is not realistic.

Maybe I didn't read through the whole thread..sorry if i missed this, but...how would you expect to access the bottom of the display, clean the glass, etc?

Basically, the setup are two tanks...arranged in a L shape. The deepest tank is 48". The front and of the 24" display will have a access swing acces panel, all the back of the display will also have a back swing back panel that opens into the equipment & fish room. Also the greenhouse roof has swing panles that can be opened or removed and the concrete beams surrounding all the display will have brackets to hold temporary aluminum beams where I cans stand up or lay down this beams will be almost in the water level line, and I have a 32" arm reach, minus the 4-6" sand bed, well that's around 6" inch that I need to solve some how, maybe with some heavy dutty tongs will do. And if necesary there's always the scuba gear ready in the closet :D and a Dive Master Certification :rollface:
Regards...
Hector

jpatrician
07/20/2004, 01:07 PM
VERY nice renderings!

reefstyle
07/20/2004, 06:24 PM
this tank going to be great. Please keep us up to date.D:D

SOMEthinsFISHY
07/21/2004, 04:49 AM
HAPPY diving !!!!

Piero
07/21/2004, 08:36 AM
HEY...glad to meet a fellow DiveMaster. I was going to follow through with my IDC, but developed a distaste for contributing to the underwater human population, and got sick and tired fo the industry's lack of environmental sensitivity.

These days it seems 80% of the new divers out there shouldnt even have a c-card. The dive shops just pump them out faster and faster, everweighted and under-educated...they crash onto the reefs like cinder blocks...but enought of my bithcin..lol. Don't even get me started on one day "resort courses"...:)

OK, back to the dream tank concept...sorry again if I missed something. You said it's only 48 inches deep; but the drawings show the total depth being something like 8 feet...with that drawn man looking at the tank on page 1....plus the "dry" half on top?

Also, another drawing shows that the bottom is really quite a bit lower than the viewing panel? I think im misreading something...

kanankeban
07/21/2004, 03:54 PM
These days it seems 80% of the new divers out there shouldnt even have a c-card. The dive shops just pump them out faster and faster, everweighted and under-educated...they crash onto the reefs like cinder blocks...but enought of my bithcin..lol. Don't even get me started on one day "resort courses"...

Don't say...some places here in Mexico...well I've seen that some dive shops, not all, take some care of the reefs taking the bigginers to some not so great dive spots...don't say I sopke about that :rolleyes: you have to really ask for the great spots where usually all the educated divers use to go. Try doing night dives beginers do go to those.. :) that way you will not see someone standing in top of a 100 year acropora...

OK, back to the dream tank concept...sorry again if I missed something. You said it's only 48 inches deep; but the drawings show the total depth being something like 8 feet...with that drawn man looking at the tank on page 1....plus the "dry" half on top?

They are just sketches, not actually architectural plans...that goes later. I already made a model and the deeper part is 48" remember that is about 24 inches from the floor, and actually water level will no go up onto the edge of the panels. :eek1: maybe I did the drawing without more care about scale..sorry

Regards..
Hector

rufio173
08/03/2004, 02:44 PM
It is definitely nice that you are patiently planning it out. If you can pull it off, it will definitely be a site to behold. It's going to be monstrous. Although I don't know why you've got to make it viewable from different parts of the home. I would offset it a bit in its own quiet area and just let it have its own space so I could stop in and relax with that wonderful view!

Peace,
John H.

SOMEthinsFISHY
08/03/2004, 10:10 PM
I just love that yellow bird !!

kanankeban
08/15/2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by SOMEthinsFISHY
I just love that yellow bird !!

WOW, do you have some pictures of that hedboard? I will love to see your idea.
Regards...
Hector

SOMEthinsFISHY
08/15/2004, 04:30 AM
hector click on profile above this sentence to see a bigger one. i will have 2 take some more !

nanoman123
08/15/2004, 06:48 AM
you should get sharks in the deep reef then like tangs/angels in the main part


JMO...


~Matt~