Need help with nano plans (long)

[toddgack]

Howdy all. After a few hours reading this forum, and looking at your pics, I've decided I want to put up a nano on my computer desk at home. I need some help. As I hit topics I'll be asking questions.

First off, a little about my tank. It's a standard 10g I bought at Wal-Mart (no the fish that were in it were not bought at Wal-Mart). It's got a standard hood, with a regular flourescent bulb. I have a power filter for it, that's rated for up to a 30 gal. tank, so I don't think I'll need to change that, or add any powerheads. As of right now, I'm not planning on buying a skimmer for the tank (I've always felt that the less you do to the tank, the more natural it is, and the less stress on the fish, and whether you believe me or not, it's worked, so far). I also have the standard heater, hydrometer, test kits, etc.

Now a little about my reef experience. I've had fish my whole life (freshwater). I set up my first salt tank, about 4 months ago, and it's doing great. I've had three losses. Two were damsels that were killed by another damsel over territory (my mistake, I wasn't aware how terrritorial they are when I purchesed them, I've since learned to do my research before I buy). The other loss was a pink tip anemone (who as sad is it sounds was more of a experiment than anything else). However, it's mostly a fish only tank, and I want to keep some of the more light dependant corals. Well, time, money, and the tank's dimensions (it's a 35g hex) are keeping me from installing the proper lighting on it. So I've thought it over, and although I may be stubborn on the subject, I've decided not to install the proper lighting on my 35.

So now I've decided I'm going to do the nano thing. But this time I'm going to do it right, and get the lighting for the corals. So what kind of lighting do I need? Is there anyway I can get the proper lighting without altering the hood? If I must alter the hood, could someone give me some good DIY directions, or point me to a good site or FAQ. Oh, I'm not good with technical terms, so please use as many layman terms as possible. I'm also looking to go as cheap as possible.

Here's the rest of the plans. I'd like to be setting up the tank ASAP. I'll be adding live sand. How much do I need? I'm thinking about a 2-3 inch bed, is that about right? For the time being it'll just be sand, and the live rock maybe a few crabs and such, until I can upgrade my lighting (probably in the next 2-3 months). I'm figuring if I do it this way, when I get the lighting upgrade, the tank will be cycled, somewhat matured, and ready for some hardy corals to start with.

Now for the big question. For this tank, I'd like to try a seahorse. Is this possible? I know seahorses like to hang on braches, but does this include coral branches, or will it get stung? Is a 10g enough room for a seahorse? I'd probably be adding the seahorse, towards the end of the year, making sure that I have good water quality.

As for LR, I'm thinking I'll go with a nice 3-5lb piece of hand picked Fiji LR. If I do go with the seahorse, I'll add a few pieces of Tonga LR (nice branches for the seahorse).

As for coral, what are good kinds for a nano? I really don't have much experience with it, other than drooling over it at the LFS. In my 35g I have some mushrooms, a kenya tree, some button polyps, and some yellow polyps. The first corals in my nano will probably be a kenya frag and some yellow polyps frags. I'd like a bubble coral, and some green star polyps. I know those would do good. What about a brain or tounge coral, or would they be too big? What else would do well?

As for other livestock, I'll have the standard crabs and snails, maybe a shrimp or two, I haven't really decided yet. If I do go with the seahorse, I won't add any fish. If I don't get the seahorse, I'll probably get a jawfish or a mandrin.

Any thoughts and comments would also be appreciated, as well as answers to my scattered questions.

Thanks,
TG

[Carlos]

Well,

Let me give it a try!

First of all, I would recommend you going to our own seahorse forum or seahorses.org and checking out the threads there. Sea horses are a totally different ballgame and they have their needs and may require a different setup than a regular reef.

I think if you want to add SH, you should research what type of SH you want, where do they come from, and what kind of corals grow there. That would give you a more natural looking tank and will make it easier to set it up.

Unfortunately I know nothing about SH so I would not be able to help you with the needs nor the setup. All I would be able to guide you is to create a tank that is well fitted for corals.

Man, I feel kind of bad that I cannot help you any more but I do not want to give you my opinion on something I have no experience with. If you go to the SH forum and or seahorses.org and they tell you that a reef setup is well fitted for SHs, then come back here and we can help you thru the entire process but I just do not want to tell you something of which I have no experience.

Now, if you decide that you do not want to go the SH route, then I will be more than happy to get you started with a small nano reef tank!!!

Keep on reefing!!!

[toddgack]

Wow, although you didn't answer any of my questions, you helped me more than you realize. I was completely unaware of seahorses.org, I'll check them out. Thanks for your honesty, I'll repost here when I have the specific information that you need.

Thanks again,
TG

[Timbo]

Carlos has the right idea concerning the seahorses, I really don't know much about them either so the SH forum would be very helpful to you at this point. I'll try and touch upon some of your other questions...


As of right now, I'm not planning on buying a skimmer for the tank (I've always felt that the less you do to the tank, the more natural it is, and the less stress on the fish, and whether you believe me or not, it's worked, so far). I also have the standard heater, hydrometer, test kits, etc.

No skimmer is not a big deal, if you visit my web page you will notice that I don't use one either, and neither does Carlos.

So what kind of lighting do I need? Is there anyway I can get the proper lighting without altering the hood? If I must alter the hood, could someone give me some good DIY directions, or point me to a good site or FAQ. Oh, I'm not good with technical terms, so please use as many layman terms as possible. I'm also looking to go as cheap as possible.

Visit http://www.ahsupply.com for information on good retrofit lighting for your current hood.

Here's the rest of the plans. I'd like to be setting up the tank ASAP.

First things first, reef tanks just don't happen ASAP. You need to relax and decide what you really want, how you're gonna do it and then get other people's feedback on why your way was wrong to begin with ;) As bizarre as that sounds it's really the best way to save money and the inhabitants' of your reef tanks lives.

I'll be adding live sand. How much do I need? I'm thinking about a 2-3 inch bed, is that about right? For the time being it'll just be sand, and the live rock maybe a few crabs and such, until I can upgrade my lighting (probably in the next 2-3 months).

That depth sounds about fine. I'd stay away from hermit crabs though. Often hermit craps will kill snails or other organisms that they might see as an easy target.

The vast majority of your questions are already answered in the nano reef FAQ that can be found at http://www.reefcentral.com/library/faq/nano.htm

Please let me know if you have other questions that Carlos or I might have left out.

Tim

[toddgack]

First, let me clarify something. When I said I wanted to set up the tank ASAP, what I meant was get the tank up, the filter running, and the rock and sand in there (I'll be doing this Wed.). That's all I'll be doing with the tank till I get the new lighting fixture. Which will not be till late July (I'll be getting my light fixture for my b-day). Sorry if I sound a little harsh there, that's not my intentions. I just don't want you thinking I'm going to go out and buy a bunch of coral and throw them into a 2 day old tank. I maybe fairly new to reefkeeping, but I know better than that. :)

As for my lighting I've come down to two choices. Either a 72watt fixture from ahsupply (one 6400K pc and one actinic blue) or a 96 watt fixture from customsealights (2 10,000K pcs and 1 actinic blue) which do you think would be better. I know that the 96 watts would be best, but would it be too much? Also, the fixture from ahsupply would be $75 cheaper, will the difference be enough to compensate the extra money?

As for the seahorses, I'm still waiting for a reply to my post in the SH forum. If the seahorses will compromise the diversity of coral I can obtain, I'll be going with something else. The whole idea behind me making this tank, is to obtain a nice coral collection that I can't have in my other tank (for reasons posted earlier), not to obtain seahorses. I guess I should say the seahorses would just be an added bonus.

Oh, one last thing I forgot to ask the first time around. Is a desema (sp?) clam able to live successfully in a nano?

Thanks,
TG

[kennerd]

Welcome to the fascinating & mostly frustrating world of nanos! The most enjoyable thing about nanos is the need to think outside of the box (tank?!?) due to the limited availability of smaller-scale equipment and strict attention to detail. IMHO: The need to do the research is far more important prior to setup is a lot more important than for a larger tank, due to margin of error....anyhoo...

Someone can agree/disagree with me on the following opinions:

1. Don't waste your money on a FULL live sand substrate. Use "dead" sand for 90% of it, then activate it with 2 lbs of live sand.

2. (this one will stir up something) I wouldn't put in your Live Rock until you've got decent lighting in there, as you might lose some of the photsynthetic life on the rock under insufficient lighting. Good quality live rock is absolutely worth the premium price for such a small quantity. Why lose more critters, just to get it setup ASAP. I would get the lights, then, if you're convcerned about diatom bloom during cycling, use a shorter photoperiod (8hr vs 12)

3. Avoid the mandarin: awsome looking fish, but needs a VERY well established tank, and a serious amount of pods to eat (amphipods/stomatopods) this is ALL they eat, nothing else.. and even with a good refugium, I seriously doubt that a 10 gallon could sustain it...Don't belive ANY LFS that tells you otherwise! Most people claim no smaller than a 75 gal, well established tank...they are dman pretty, though, aren't they?

4.OK, I think you should be fine with the AH Supply setup. 7.2 watts/gal should be plenty for most SPS, and maybe even clams. The corals you listed, however, are lower/indirect light corals, and heat could become a problem. 96watts might be overkill, and for the difference in price between the two, you could set yourself up with a new canopy, fans, etc. Main suggestion is to decide how much light is enough (or slightly more than enough) for the corals you want to keep.

Kim has some great products & prices @ AH Supply. It doesn't sound like you are going to have enough room in the stock hood for the 2x36 setup you are looking to purchase. i know this, because I have a 2x36 on a 38 gallon, 30" canopy, freshwater tank, and I had to shoe it into the perfecto hood, end to end. Also, I have a 10 gal FOWLR that has a standard hood: no way is a 72w setup goin to fit! With the right canopy, though, side by side will work fine.......

Right off the bat, if you are handy enough, build a new canopy, or if you're not into doing it yourself, Kim @ AH Supply has wood canopies that would fit your 10 gallon for $29 or so, and his have vented slats in the top and are predrilled for switches/cords. not furniture quality, but nice. This will open up your options for lighting & heat control BIGTIME.

I am considering the AH canopy for my 12, when I add the stand & sump. I'm running 64w over 12 gallons successfully, and might go higher, but am adding a 20 gallon sump for heat control & equipment location.

Whew: did I just type all that?!?!?!? OK I need to get some work done! Digest it (if you can) & don't take my verbosity as a negative: we're all here to help each other along!

Ken

[toddgack]

Thanks for the reply Ken. That's what I was planning on with the sand. As for the lights, I was just going to get that $29 hood AHSupply has. For $125 I'm getting the hood, the 2x32 reflector kit, and a 6400K pc and a actinic blue blub. I think that's a great price, and should be just about right for the nano.

I was wondering if a 10 gal would be able to support the mandrin. If I was going to get it, I wouldn't have gotten it for a good part of a year, but you've convinced me not to.

As for the seahorses, they're a no as well. So it's either going to be a jawfish, or a clown (maybe, just maybe I'll get a pair).

Thanks for the help guys.

TG

P.S. Anyone have any idea on the amount of sand I'll need total. I don't have the 10g here, so I can't measure it and use the calculator.

[kennerd]

OK, folks: check out the link below for the inland reef Sand Calculator. It's a great thing, especially for us nano-freaks with strange sized tanks, and lists all of the standard sizes. It will calculate how much sand you'll require, based on tank dimension & desired depth: Fantastic resource

http://www.inlandreef.com/Files/sandcalc.exe

Pretty neat to see how different the density of each sand type runs...IE: 10 gal tank with a 2.5" bed of Southdown Sand requires 27.9 lbs.

The 2x32 kit should be great for your tank size ,and believe Kim when he says BRIGHTKIT. his reflectors are brighter than mirrors: justy remember to leave the peel-off coating on there until you are finished installing: they scratch kinda easily.

You can do a search on the mandarin out here on the site & you'll see what I mean...lots of heartbreaking stories....

[toddgack]

Ok, after a trip to my mom's house (where my tank and the supplies were), I've run into another problem. Here's the deal. I can't find the powerfilter. Would an undergravel be okay? If I go with the undergravel, can I still use sand?

Now for substrate. I have some crushed coral left over from my last tank. If I go with the undergravel, how does this sound. Place the undergravel, then cover it with crushed coral. Then place a two inch sand bed on top (dead sand) and then place a few pounds of live sand on top, to activate it. Would this work, or would all the sand just end up under the filter? Or would it be better to place crushed coral, then put the undergravel on top of that, another layer of c.c. then the sand? Or should I just get another power filter?

Any thoughts or comments will be appreciated as always.

Thanks,
TG

[kennerd]

I'd nix the undergravel filter ASAP.....major problems down the road.....if you've got a powerhead, all shoudl be OK..all you really need is water movement.

Ask around about the substrate you already have, as I have no experience with it.

If you're going to go ahead & spend the $$ on a new powerfilter, you may as well spend $20 or less (mail order is cheaper) for a Lee's counter current, in-tank skimmer, and a small powerhead, if you don't already have one. I have a Lee's, and it only hooks up to an air pump...skims the heck out of my 12 gallon, but takes up room in the tank. Dead quiet, too, since there's no pump: the tank is on my nightstand.

If you go with fully cured live rock, then skimming/filtration isn't an absolute necessity. Substrate is going to be more important., and I'd suggest the deepest sand bed you can live with.

[toddgack]

alright guys, thanks for all the help. Here's what I've decided to do. Feel free to "correct" me if I'm wrong. I'm going to start off without a filter or skimmer. I have an extra powerhead, that will move 150 gph. Weekly water changes of 10-15% For substrate, I'm going to go with a 2.5-3 inch dsb. About 2lbs of live sand on top to activate it. For live rock, I'm going to go with 5-7 lbs. Lighting will be the 2x32 kit from ahsupply. A 6400K pc, and a actinic blue.

If the powerhead isn't enough, and after a few months I feel I need some filtration, I'll get a powerfilter. But for now, I think the powerhead should do fine.

I've been looking at flyingfishexpress, and have found a few corals I want. Anyone have some comments on these corals in a nano?
1. Favia brain (moonstone)- this has to be one of my most fav.
2. anchor (hammerhead)
3. tounge coral
4. bubble coral

I'll definetly get more, but it'll take me a few months to get these, so I'll worry more about that after I get the ones I've listed.

Thanks for all the help and opinions,
TG

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Hi Todd,
I just started a 10 gallon nano a few weeks ago on my desk at work!
I have the 2x32 bright kits from AH Supply and I love them! I also got the hood that Kim makes and I'm very pleased with the looks and the workmanship. Excellent setup for the price!

I'm pushing a lot of water in my 10g. I have a Maxi-Jet 900 that blows about 230 gph. I also have 2 Penguin hang-on filters (125 and mini) with no filter pads. So lots of water movement, but things seem to be staying put.

For my substrate, I used about 10 lbs of that "live sand in a bag" which has pretty small grained aragonite, 10 lbs of crushed coral, 4 lbs of Grunge from GARF (http://www.garf.org) , and IPSF (http://www.ipsf.com)'s Live Sand Activator. So far so good! So I have just under 3" of substrate. I'm thinking about adding a few more pounds of live sand from Inland Aquatics (http://www.inlandaquatics.com).

Eventually, I'm going to move my Bak Pak 2R skimmer from my 6g to the 10g (I'm tearing down the 6 to make room for a 20g later this year). I happen to like the skimmer for 2 reasons: 1) To remove gunk, but I make a really dry foam by raising the collection cup pretty high. 2) And this is the main reason, it's really good at aerating the water! Lots of bubbles with none in the main tank.

You probably don't need to do water changes for a while. If you do, just make small changes. Just make sure you're right on with the fresh water top off. That's probably more important than water changes as you're starting off. It'll keep your salinity/specific gravity from fluctuating too much.

About your choices for corals, the Favia, Anchor, and Bubble coral will send out sweepers and sting anything near them. I would definitely get small specimens and watch your placement. The favia would probably be the worst culprit in this regard. But nice choices! Should look great!

Carlos just started a 10g I believe. It will be interesting to track our progress and learn from each other's successes and failures as we're moving through with tanks that are about the same age! Should be fun!!!! :)

[kennerd]

Todd:

Sounds like you've got a great plan. I've got a hammer, frogspawn & a favia in my tank....definitely got with the smallest possible specimens you can find. even without the sweepers, the euphyllia (hammer/torch/frgospawn/bubble family) expand greatly. When I say small, I have a frogspawn frag that is smaller in diameter than a pencil, and only 1" long, and the regular polyps extend in a 1.75" globe....3" hammer frag only half inch across spans a 3.5" circle, so be aware of their size, and hopefully, they will be growing in its new home as well.

Your best bet for decent sized frags is to put a post out on the frag trading board on this site as well as trying the following, and try to find someone local:

reefs.org
reefland.com
aqualink.com
fishroom.com
fishforums.com
reeftalk.com
fishroom.com

I also agree with Jeff: don't rule out a skimmer, just keep your eyes open on those boards, and you can find a decent used skimmer: aeration, skimming, water movement in one.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Check out eBay from time to time. I got my Bak Pak 2R for $90 brand new in the box!

I also got a 4x96 Custom Sealife hood/fixture system for only $280 used. Compare that with $600! Awww yeah! eBay can be a great place to pick up something for cheap. Umm... this wasn't for a nano though. :) I plan on doing a 75g maybe next year.

[toddgack]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I guess I'll pick up the mini powerfilter I was looking at, and run that with the powerhead. That will give me about 350GPH. I'll definetly keep a running post about my trials and tribulations with this nano (or maybe I'll set up a website). It's going to be a rough ride at first, but it will definetly be fun! Oh well, off to the store to buy sand.

Thanks again,
TG