Long talk with LFS

[prop-frags]

I had an excellent discussion with my LFS owner last night. He has been in business for just over 15 years and has quite a dedicated following in my area. I was asking him about how he procures his livestock and I really liked what he had to say. As he got into the business, like everyone else he was buying from wholesalers - the margins were good (which is necessary for someone starting out and trying to build an enduring business), but the quality was hit-and-miss. Many of the wholesalers were simply looking at margins and buying from collectors who sold the cheapest product. As the collection trade boomed in the Phillipines and the use of cyanide became more widespread, the quality continued to deteriorate, but those prices sure were attractive.
He is a marine biologist, and made the hard decision early on - bypass the wholesalers, and deal directly with collectors; collectors who net-catch exclusively. Over the years, he has managed to build up an impressive network of collectors, all of whom net-catch. His prices are high. I can easily find fish on the other side of town or online that beat his prices (sometimes by wide margins). But you know what, I don't mind the extra price. Personally, I admire this guy tremendously for doing what he is doing. He could easily take the low road and widen his margins and make a LOT more money for his store. But he is standing firm on his principles to protect the environment and run an LFS that he can be proud of. I think it's cool, and he'll certainly be getting my money for livestock.

[barron_w]

Very encouraging. It just a shame that it is so rare to find stores who are able and willing to adopt these types of business policies. When we do find storeowners like these it so important to patronize them and encourage other local hobbyists to do likewise. I am glad you are and thanks for sharing. -Benjamin

[oama]

Does he also carry CB fish, Inverts & corals?

[spydergst98]

Hopefully his Principles will pay for his Mortage, Cars, Kids Education, and all the finer things in life. (If applicable)

Bottom line is - It's all about making money. If the consumer doesn't take the time to research first and buy all the wrong equiptment then too bad.

Do you go and buy a car or house without doing some research first?

I too would pay more for live stock if I know where they came from and how they are taken care off. But if I own my LFS - I would also raise my prices on Tanks, Equiptment, ect...

Later,

[Piscesgirl]

Is this a SW only LFS? He doesn't sell captive-bred fish at all? It is in Richmond, VA, I presume? Did Hurricane Isabel affect him and his stock?

[prop-frags]

Bottom line is - It's all about making money. I'm not so sure about that. For some merchants, their actions certainly echo this sentiment. Fortunately, there are a precious few that actually balance several factors in addition to profit. I think those that do wind up with a more dedicated customer base and build enduring businesses.

Does he also carry CB fish, Inverts & corals?Yes, he does. He actually has a tank full of CB clowns right now.

Is this a SW only LFS? It is in Richmond, VA, I presume? Did Hurricane Isabel affect him and his stock?Yes, it's a SW only in Richmond. He was really really lucky to have not lost power, so there wasn't any major adverse affects, unlike so many in the area. He spent several days running around with his generator and trying to rescue or stabilize many of his customer's tanks that had lost their power.

[oama]

Kudos to your LFS :)

[blueoceandiver]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Piscesgirl]

I really hope that he remains successful, it sounds like a really great LFS.

[mr294]

Not trying to cause trouble because the guy in question is indeed very knowledgeable, the store does obtain some beautiful livestock, and I do shop there on occasion. I do not however think it is very "responsible" of them to regularly import crinoid stars, spanish dancers and other nudibranchs, vase sponges, dyed sebae anemones, dyed turbinaria, dyed tubastrea, dyed leather corals, scleronephtya, dendronephtya,distichopora, pencil wrasses, orange spot filefish, and assorted sharks. They have a wonderful variety of the rare and unusual, but I wish they would leave some of these creatures that are not suited to current captive conditions in the ocean.

[spydergst98]

If he can sell it to us at a good price and still make a profit then good for him.

I will pay a little more for a fish that I can see and know that's it's well taken care of rather then ordering online.

But when it comes to equiptment - Online all the way - 50-60% why not?

Later,

[fishome25]

don't you have to be a wholesaler to import directly?

[Al G Blenny]

You do not have to be a wholesellers to import direct but that is probably not what he is doing. If he is truly getting net caught fish he is probably getting them from wholesellers that specialize in net collecting. There are not many of them around. There is only one major importer that collects most of his stuff from the Sea Of Cortez. He is in the process of training small groups of people in the Phillipines to collect with nets. I recently found out about Seacrop. Supposedly they have the same thing going. I hate to say it but I know for a fact that a lot of online companies and LFS say they are buying net caught and they are really not. I know this because I know the guy that collects in mexico personally. For all you S.F. bay area people Natural Life Aquarium in Sunnyvale is one of his bigger customers. They carry 100% net cought fish and corals from the same collectors. Be carefull buying things just because someone says that his product is better. Some stores mix salt mix and sell it as seawater. I have seen a few stores that do it. I even knew a store that sold their old tank water as seawater! They charged $1.99 for it! If you are not sure if a store is buying net caught, ask them to see an invoice. All the invoices from net collecters usually say "net caught" on the top.

[barron_w]

Al G Blenny, thanks for the info on the SF Bay Area stores. My LFS (as in the closest one to me) does receive fish from the Sea of Cortez wholesaler. The problem is that based on the positive feedback I gave the owner and him noticing my interest in only fish from Cortez, he now tells me every SW fish in the store is net caught from the Cortez wholesaler. I know this not to be true. :mad2:

I would love to hear which stores in the area you know have sold mixed or store-used water as ocean water. Please send me a PM if you don't want to post names. Makes me wonder about the water I have been buying :hmm2:

[Piscesgirl]

Al Blenny, that really disgusts me. How can these people sleep at night misleading people like that? And, what if this used tank water had diseases or parasites? There is such a wholesale deceit in this world passed of as "just doing business" (I dont just mean aquatic business either).

I can sleep at night knowing that every day I am honest in my dealings with people. No, I'm not in retail, but it doesn't matter. Selling something as something it isn't is just plain wrong. How different is that from stealing? It isn't.

[GreshamH]

I've got to clear something up right now, before false advertising takes place.

For all you S.F. bay area people Natural Life Aquarium in Sunnyvale is one of his bigger customers. They carry 100% net cought fish and corals from the same collectors.

Natural Life is in fact one of our local customers, BUT, he doesn't buy striclty from us. He spreads his business between several wholesalers, and I can tell you, we're not his main supplier. We're definitly the only net caught wholesaler he's dealing with though.

If you are not sure if a store is buying net caught, ask them to see an invoice. All the invoices from net collecters usually say "net caught" on the top.

Well now thats just not true. Anyone can put that on their letter head. Just because some one says they're net caught, doesn't mean 5hit. Do some research on the company before dealing with them. Look at their stock, do they always have the small clown triggers, blue tangs (pacific), blue face angels, and other cyanide target species? Learn more about a fish prior to purchasing it. If you know a lot about a fish, you certainly can catch employees and owners alike in basic common LFS/Wholesalers lies. Talk to people, post on this and other forums and research the h3ll out of it BEFORE you buy.

There are also other wholesalers dealing with cyanide freee/net caught fish. MSI in Southern California ( reefsource.com) is one and another is up in BC someplace. I forget the outfits name, but the owner, Kylen sometimes posts on reefs.org Industry Behind The Hobby forum. There maybe more as well, I just know about these two and know their sources are clean.

If your in the Bay Area, I can assist you on finding net caught specimans at our LFS. PM me here or send me an email at gresh@cortezmarine.com. I'm busy, but I usually can find the time to respond to most emails.

Gresham Hendee
CortezMarine.com

[GreshamH]

Let me explain a little better, Natural life buys they're corals (net caught corals?) from other wholesalers BUT he mainly buys his fish from us. He's a store trying to do the right thing and I wasn't trying to say anything bad against them or what they're trying to do.

[storrsms]

I live in the Shenandoah Valley, could you give me the name and directions for this ( and any other lfs's in Richmond). I am fairly limited as far as marine livestock in this area, especially corals and inverts. Please PM me if the names and/or directions to the stores in Richmond are too long.
Thanks,

Mark

[cortez marine]

Well,
We have some good, consciencious stores in Virginia and San Jose area...thats a start.
Now to fill in the rest of the country.
To deal ethically in marine tropical fish is much more difficult than to just buy whatever is cheap and colorful off a stock list.
To turn down cyanide fish variety in order to keep it clean is something very few stores are willing to do. We have gambled that there are finally enough stores that care and that our business could survive on clean fish alone. To this end, we are grateful for stores like NATURAL LIFE in Sunnyvale that have supported us thru thick and thin as we try to build our netcaught fish inventory up and get more divers trained properly in the Philippines..
Very Sincerely,
Steve Robinson
@ Cortez Marine

[prop-frags]

And KUDOS to you Steve - I sure hope that more than just good Kharma come to you. I know that I for one will be one of those customers who asks the tough questions, and puts their money where the net-caught fish are! It MUST begin with the customers - as my CEO says "The market is boss".

[fishome25]

Steve you are setting a great example I hope more will soon follow. I was wondering how do the net caught fish compare price wise. And are you not able to sell as big of a variety selling net caught?

[storrsms]

Steve and mclva,

I too agree that we should NOT buy the cyanide caught livestock, and that is why I was asking about the store in Richmond that mclva mentioned, as I live about an hour and a half away and would be more than willing to travel this distance for net caught 'pearls'.
Please help me in trying to STOP the trade in cyanide caught livestock by allowing me to purchase from a store that claims they do not deal with the people involved with this trade by letting me know the name/location of the store(s) in this area that practice sound management and business ethics.

Thanks,

Mark

[Laura D]

Hey mclva123, the LFS owner you speak of wouldn't be named Joe at Fish World would it?? I have fond memories of that place from living in RVA.

[jmicky41]

Has anyone ever seen a store that doesn't tell you that their fish are all net caught? Having worked for years in fish stores, it can be a real struggle to bring in healty stock when the guy down the street can sell junk cheaper. I don't know how many times I heard " Chistmas Islands Hippo tang ? they have one down the street for $15 cheaper." Most people on this site know the difference; but the 'average' customer is far more concerned with the cheapest price. And that puts the good shop at a disadvantage. Just my 2 cents

[Universal]

There are two LFS's that I often fo to because these guys are honest and tell u what u need not what u dont need. They both dive for their fishes and get thier live rock right out of the local reefs. Their stores arent decorated like other LFS's are becuase theyre serious about what they sell. They will not sell fish to people who they think arent ready to look after the fish.

One of them has taken his own time to set up my tank and is very helpful to what I need to maintain my tank.

I use pay extra for fish at these two LFS's but know they give me discounts because Im a regular now which makes me come back.

The thing is these guys love what they do and not just in it for the money.( Although they do make some good money thats why they have been in the business for 10+ years)

Its just a matter of talking to your LFS and "sussing" them out.

[AttackDonut]

Listen-

I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but if this is the fish world shop I think it is, most of his stuff is junk and more than one fish has been caught with cyanide, regardless of what he tells you.

Don't get me wrong, I like the man, but he runs a business and will *happily* sell you whatever you want, at markups that are insane.

Correct me if I am wrong about the fish shop, but there aren't too many fish shops in the Richmond area, and I know of them all.

Of all of them, there is only one I trust, because the person in charge of the salt water section has Moral Integrity and has passed the BS Meter with flying colours (it also helps that he practices what he preaches)

[Universal]

In Australia we never hear of using cyanide to catch fish because most of the fish sold here are just right of our reefs.

How long does the fish last for when cyanide caught????

[blue hula3]

Originally posted by Universal
In Australia we never hear of using cyanide to catch fish because most of the fish sold here are just right of our reefs.

Sorry Universal,
I have to disagree. You don't hear much about cyanide not because it isn't present but because people don't want to talk about it ... particularly those flogging the fish.

A few years ago, following the government bringing in new quarantine requirements for imported marine fish, I would agree that almost all marines sold in Australia were Aussie-caught. Only a few of the more experienced importers stayed in the import biz.

But, over the last year and a bit, the number of quarantine stations continues to grow with many LFS having their own out back. Some owners may be conscientious about their choice of exporters from the Phils and Indo ... enough are not. Cyanide is here too.

Cheers,

Blue Hula