Ich Help ( my first battle).

[mtcad]

HI Everyone,

Well..I am getting ready to batte my first out break of Ich and just need some brain power(yours)and advice. Please! I know this topic can get heated some times but I just want to share my approach. I have read every thread for the past two days..on three different boards.

My tank has been up for over a year now and I have been really trying to take it slow. (5) fish.. Hippo, Yellow Tang, two Percs and flame hawk. 125 #LR, 1 clam, 4 crabs, 10-15 Turbos, two cleaner shrimp, three Pep Shrimp. 4-5 softies

100 gallon
Ammo 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Calcium 400
ALK 7.8( I am working on the ALK and Calcium)
Temp Normally around 80-81

The trigger I believe for the outbreak was a combo of temp rising went from 81 to 86 on two days (california heat) and my skimmer started to malfuntion (RIO..need I say more)

Currently only one fish, Hippo Tang seems to be infected. (approx 10-20 white dots) Has been in the tank for 8 months and seems to stillbe eating well.

I cannot get the fish out of the tank. No fresh water dip or Hospital tank.

First: Remeding problems- I have purchased a new skimmer. I have added another fan and am keeping the house cooler..not easy with california power cost.

Second: Treatment
1) Selcon in Formula Food.
2) Kick Ich (does this work?)
3) Garlic in Formula Flake food.
4) Live Brine (trying to keep them healthy)
5) Heaven Tang food (same as above)

Anything else? As I said I can't get the fish..I understand getting all the fish out of the tank is THE safest way to deal with the problem but I would need to take my whole tank apart.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

[smiller]

Sounds like you are doing what you should. Make sure you get that temp thing under control if that is the problem.

I have used the same treatment method you are using successfully, but the infected fish only had five or six spots. IME the garlic should cause the ich to drop and give the fish some relief. This is key IMO in getting the stress level down on the fish. Make sure your hippo gets plenty. I soaked garlic into my brine.

Make sure you kill your skimmer when you use Kick Ick. I dosed for 1 1/2 days at two ounces per 25 gal and skimmed for 1/2 day and re-treated several times. Whether the Kick Ick did the trick or whether the the fish was able to fight the ich off on it's own I can't say. But it has worked twice for me.

[Theo]

hey folks
I use garlic in my food. The mix I made myself and froze into cubes. One cube lasts about 3 to 4 days. I put a garlic capsule into every second bowl of food. I wouldn't worry too much. Despite quarentine and good acclimation my Hippo would get occasional break outs, but it wouldn't spread and always cleared up on its own. Since I've been using garlic though I havn't had any break outs at all. Hippos just get ich, no two ways, but thent hey are pretty high strung. Reminds me of a boss I once had...lol

[smiller]

Theo,

I've wondered if feeding garlic on a regular basis could cause the ich to build a tolerance to it?

[mtcad]

^

[Theo]

I have no idea. I mean people don't even know if it really works or not. Also it would depend on how it works. If it does something directly to the organism then I suppose it could. If it worked with the fishes immune system witch would make more sense than I don't think it could. People have been using garlic for centuries for cleansing of the blood.I thinking it just keeps the fish healthy boosting its own immune system.

Joe

[JohnL]

^

[Theo]

what exactly does " ^ " mean anyway? Is it a judgement from the moderation commitee of some kind? Should I bow my head in shame at this point?

[JohnL]

Theo, not at all. It's just a shortcut way of saying "I'm bringing this post to the top of the list so someone with knowledge of the issue can see it and possibly reply" :D

I also moved your post into this forum so that our resident fish experts can see it and take a shot at answering it.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the search button at the top right area of every page. It takes you to our search page (http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/search.php) where you can search through previous threads on the same topic.

I hope this helps.

PS, <img src="http://www.reefcentral.com/images/welcome.gif"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

[Theo]

Thanks. Its not my original post though. I'm glad you explained that little ^ was really getting on my nerves... sorry I manage a garden center in Canada and we're breaking into spring. Everything gets on my nerves just now. Thanks for the welcome. I was here before but had a computer melt down and had to join for the second time.

[FMarini]

Hi:
About the garlic in the food. This is not a cure all by any means..it gets mixed reviews on its effectiveness.
read here about ich
http://www.net-link.net/~kandl/ich_faq.htm
Garlic appears to do a few things,
some good
some bad...such as described here
http://www.aqualink-too.com/ubb/board/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=001740
Garlic contains chemicals which may boost immune responses, a second effect is probably the most useful againist Ich, garlic increase mucus production, ie, slime coat. As you know most ich treatments do nothing for the intial ich, they work by preventing reinfection, and increase slime coat prevents ich from attaching and/or kill off the parsites offspring.

In my experience copper based treatments as well as hyposalinity are really the two only consistantly effective means to control ich.
I've read about the use of antibiotics to treat ich and Kick-ich uses this approach. I've also heard you have to use 2-4 times the dose levels to be effective.
I would do a search here and at other reef sites (like reefs.org and aqualink) for ich and treatments for ich, as these have been discussed ad nasuium.
http://www.aqualink-too.com/ubb/board/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000005 (check out hcs3 responses very detailed)
So i tell you all this becuz you seem redicent to remove your tang for treatment. So you can wait it out, and ensure your tang and tankmates are eating normally. Crossing your fingers they can kick th eICh on thei own.
Or if possible, attempt to catch the infected fish (do it at night when he sleeps or trick him into a net while feeding) and treat him. Eitherway a quick quarentine tank can be made using a 5 gal bucket some live rock, and airstone/airpump.
your call
frank

[mtcad]

Wanted to post an update.

I followed the approach I outlined above and have not been able to cure the ICH from my Hippo Tang.

I addressed the stressors:
Temp is under control.
Purchased new skimmer.

BUT..Kick Ich did not kick it.

So, I need a plan B. I have a few questions.

1) Since it seems that the only real proven cure seems to be hypo and copper and I can't do either in the main tank. I am now setting up a hospital tank to treat the Tang with copper. If I do so..and the Tang is not in the main (infected) tank for 3-4 weeks will the ICH be gone if it can not infect my other fish, which do not show signs of the parasite?

2) (WAG) I have a 30 gallon refuguim...which is connected to the main tank via 20' of pvc pipe and is really doing great, tons of pods and macro. My question is, if I treat the tang with a fresh water dip..get the "spots" to drop off then place the tang in the refuguim. Will the parasites "travel" and infect the tang in the refuguim? Or could I put in a "filter material" that would keep the refuguim safe? I know this is a long shot and probably not an option.

Also, and other suggestions are very welcome.

BTW-For new reefers..IMO..if you don't setup a Q tank..which I didn't, and quarantine your new fish you will get this...someday, it is almost guaranteed.

Lesson Learned.

TIA.

[FMarini]

Hi:
see i told you...set up a Quarentine tank...
freshwater dipping for ick does little , the parasites are well buried, IMO FW dips will stress out the fish more bad than good.
If you set up a q tank, treat w/ copper for 1 week. Monitor the coopper levels and adjust accordingly ICH will disappear in 2-3 days, but residual paraiste will hang around...Copper works believe me, and qucikly, you just got to plan accordingly.

frank

[maroun.c]

Man you are so lucky, you got to learn the right thing right from the start, and you got to learn it with a Hippo tang which IMO is one of the strongest fish against disease, white spot can cover him entirely but still he will swim and eat normally. It took me more than 1 year and lots and lots of losses till I figured it out, I lost 2 moorish idol 6-7 bicolors 5 butterflies more than a douzen clowns... I could continue this list for 2 more pages, not that I am proud about that, on the countrary I am ashmed that all those lovely creatures had to perish because of my ignorance. I can list you a lot of benefits of a Q tank but i'll only mention the following to keep this post humanly readable: Imagine if you have to catch the fish for a FW dip or for a dip in whatever solution, Imagine having to break ur display tank appart to remove ur inverts to be able to go Hypo, well that's what happened to me last month I had to change like half the water of my tank with all the inconvenience of going to buy RO water and transporting it and splashing the whole room while adding and removing water....
One thing al fishkeepers should keep in mind, those wonderful creatures were removed from their natural habitat only because of our fantasy and our love for this hobby(wonder if that justifies all what fish go through and all the losses due to bad practices to catch them), so its our responsibilty to try our best to have a succes out of every single fish we get.
Good luck with your fish.

[sands611]

Originally posted by maroun.c
I can list you a lot of benefits of a Q tank but i'll only mention the following to keep this post humanly readable:

One thing al fishkeepers should keep in mind, those wonderful creatures were removed from their natural habitat only because of our fantasy and our love for this hobby(wonder if that justifies all what fish go through and all the losses due to bad practices to catch them), so its our responsibilty to try our best to have a succes out of every single fish we get.

Hi All,
I have just set up a salt tank- 6 months ago.
I avioded spending money on a Q tank so I could have more money to buy cool filters, stuff, fish and what not.
WELL- I was going to buy my VHO lights and as I was walking out the door to the LFS to pick them up, my wife called my attention to our Y Tang- White spotts EVERYWHERE.
I have a great LFS and I took a picture of Y tang and his new spots to them.
I was gonna skip on the Q tank and still buy the lights. My guy told me I have a duty to heal the Tang- so we set up a nice, but SMALL tank for the ick we now have. My tang and my pair of percs have ick. 3 days noe of copper and it looks lie it is clearing up.
Running salinity at .010 and temp at 81. plus the copper.
Fish are happy and eating and swimming well.
BUT since I bought the Q tank i did not have enuf for my lights,
SO we went and upgraded the 55 to a 75, got stand, hood and tank drilled bottom for 220 bucks, and I bought a Model 75 Auqua clear wet dry.
So now we are runing
wet dry,
Magnum 350 for water polishing
skimmer
2 p heads for movement
4 inch sand bed and 45 lbs of live rock-

Lights can wait for my all fish tank for now- I am runing 2 strip lights for fish only.

this sound reasonable-
But I am GLAD to now have a Q tank up and running... Piece of mind

[jamone]

I have a bi-colo pseudochromis with couple of spots of ich...90 gallan reef tank live rock and some basic corals. almost impossible for me to catch with 100 lbs of live rock......should i worry? other fish are fine......shall i just make sure temperature is about 81 degrees and see if the pseudchromis can fight it off? or tear down my rocks to catch him/her and put in quarantine tank? ugh.....i hate ich.......

JaM

[billsreef]

Sands,

Talk about dredging up history ;)

Glad to see you set up a QT :)

jamone,

What you do depends on if you want to clear the tank of ich. It is capable of existing as a subclinical infection that is not noticable to us. Hence the only way of truly making a tank ich free is to remove all fish to a QT and treating them with either hyposalinity or copper.

As far as in reef tank treatments, garlic oil soaked foods might help the pseudo fight it off and prevent the others from catching it. However, notice the "might". All other so called "reef safe" cures are IMO snake oil.

[sands611]

Ihave been monitoring the QT and can not see the spots directl, rather thru indirect light I can see them on the fins of the tang and percs by back lighting them with my high power flashlight-
SAD! I thought I was winning. I hope that it will clear up over time.
I have learned my errors and am swearing by W'ing all new fish arrivals in the future!:( :eek2:

[williamgarnett]

my purple tang showed signs of ich last week, within 24 hours i noticed all the other fish in the tank were lightly dusted with white spots (purple psuedo, yellow tang, tomato clown, and koran angel). i had kent xtreme garlic but had never used it before, i have soaked brine shrimp 3 times and added a couple drops to the sump on the the days when i only feed flake food. the purple tang still has some signs but is surely getting better, the yellow is almost all clear, the other 3 fish are 100%. i have used no-ich and kick ich in the past, as well as hypo and copper, and i can't one works and one doesn't, i think it all depends on the type of fish, the water conditons, and the degree of the parasite infection. i think garlic can be effective if used early enough, i also do not believe in using garlic unless fish are showing signs of infection. i do use zoe to soak my brine shrimp which i normally feed once a week, and just flake and algae sheets the rest of the time. good luck
wpg

[jamone]

roger dodger..

thank you for your information! I greatly appreciate it.

JaM

[jamone]

I am going to the local tropical fish store to pick up some kent garlic extreme.

thank you

my bi-color....the spots on fins dropped ...or i can barely detect any right now. but....on it's shoulder...i found one spot. possibly burrowed into his skin :(

I hope to cure it soon..........this message board system is awesome!

thanks again!

[TerryB]

You can feed the fish garlic but it often does not work when the infection has already spread to more than a couple of fish. It is dangerous to combine copper and hyposalinity. Hyposalinity can cause the pH to drop and should be buffered regularily. Copper becomes highly toxic when the pH falls so combinining copper with hyposalinity is dangerous. Hyposalinity alone will cure ich just fine provided you use an accurate (not a swing arm type) hydrometer or refractometer. The correct salinity is 16ppt or less, I prefer 14ppt. This translates to a specific gravity of about 1.009 depending on the water temperature.
Terry B

[jamone]

thank you for your information.

bi-color doing better today, no visible sign of ich on the body this morning...but little spots on it's dorsal fin.

JaM