New fish white spot

[maroun.c]

Hi all.
Got 2 new fish 2 weeks ago, a Maroon clown and a Bicolor angel. Both are still in my Q tank waiting for the one month quarantine to pass before I introduce them to my display tank. Both are eating well and have stopped hiding whenever I get near to watch or feed them. The clown seems pretty acclimated, he wil come and take the food right from my hand or just come and rub his back on my finger(too friendly for just two weeks in my tank!!!) the bicolor is eating well and everything was quite normal till two days ago when a single white spot apeared on it's lower fin, it seems growing out from the fish just like a small cotton ball (1mm), I watched it for two days and it hasn't spread neither grown or shrunk.
I need suggestions about what I should do is it time for a freshwater dip, hyposalinity, copper treatment, garlic oil???
I've been on hyposalinity in my display tank for 2 weeks and it seems to have cured the ick, and I really like this method however the bicolor angel to my knowledge is a relatively sensitive fish, same goes for the copper treatment...
Any suggestion is highly appreciated.
Maroun.

[FMarini]

Hi:
what does the spot look like? cottony you say. My first inclination is lymphocystis, as its only a single spot.
Have you notice that he is becoming more spot covered? If so then this is ich(k).
If it is ich, and you have the fish in a Q tank...treat w/ copper(cupramine). this will eliminate the parasite w/in a few days. Do a search(top of the page) for ich and ich treatment and you'll find out the exact how-tos...bottomline what does the spot look like and how much of the fish is involved?
more info please
thanks
frank

[maroun.c]

Hi frank,
the spot is a bit cottony, very whitish in color, it just goes out like 1 mm outside of the fish aiming downwards I feel like if i grab the fish I can just pull it out (No i'm not gonna do that), it was only a single spot till today morning when I was leaving to work I came close to have a look at the fish and I just saw 3 spots on the lat fin of the fish, these spots are different from the initial one: A bit smaller and not cottony and not as bright white in color, could the fish be having both ich and lymphocystis?
As you said now that there are additionnal spots this could be ich.
two more queestions:
-Should I remove the maroon clown from the Q tank or will the copper protect him from getting infected?
-What is the best treatment for lymphocystis?
Thanks for the help.
Maroun.

[maroun.c]

Now this is becoming confusing, I just came back from work and went to check up the Bicolor, the three spots have disappeared on their own, however the big wite cottony one is still there.
Where does that put me and what should I do, i'm getting more concerned fore the clown in the tank.
Oter than this the bicolor seems really well and eating like a pig.
Thanks again for any help.

[billsreef]

When you say cottony, does it look like a cotton ball or cotton candy? If so it is more likely a fungus. This usually occurs as a secondary infection to either a wound from handling or due to parasites. Fungus is not affected by copper, however I find malachite green to be the most effective medication for this. Usually a week worths of treatment will clear up fungal infections.

Lymphocytosis tends to appear more like like a solid lump, often with a textured surface looking something like a head of cauliflower or sometimes a granular look. This is a virus akin to warts, as such it is not treatable with medications. If it is on the edge of the fins it can be carefully cut off with sharp scisors. Often it will clear up on it's own with good water a quality and a good diet, so I tend to just let it be as it isn't prone to spreading or being life threating.

[maroun.c]

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the help, as for the spot well it's rather very smooth and very small to really see the texture of the surface.
However this is the second day I see white spots on the fish this time there are two spots on the tail, I wonder if they will disappear on their own like yesterday, and I think I should be expecting a white spots outbreak soon so here's what I'll do I'll medicate the fish with copper for a week and then I'll see if this will help with this spot, if not I'll be treating with malachite green.
Any suggestion on any other approach is highly appreciated, I was wondering if I can treat with copper and malachite green simultaneously???
The only thing that bothers me is that I already lost 6 Bicolor angels before and they really seem to be really sensitive fish. (I just won't imagine my tank without one if ur asking why I got the 7th one )therefore i'm trying to do my best so that it works this time.
Thanks a lot

[billsreef]

This is starting to sound more like ick. It is possible to treat with both malachite green and copper but I would only do this as a last resort. The treatment will need to last 4 weeks to be sure of totally eradicating ick. An alternative to copper is to go with hyposalinity (1.009-1.010), this seems to cause less stress than copper.

BTW Bi Color angels in general are very difficult to obtain good specimens. These are prone to dificulties in getting to eat and seem to suffer what is termed Post Traumitic Shipping Disorder wherein a fish can do well for up to about 6 weeks and then up and die for no apparent reason. I've been working in LFS for a number of years and have put these on my personal do not order list of fish that consistanly have higher mortality rates than I will accept.

[maroun.c]

I totally agree with you Bill most of my losses with bicolor was due to fish not eating(4 out of six) however this one ate on the second day I got it in and it was in the Q tank with the clown only and that day the clown didn't eat. The reason why I say that is that usually I feel like if new fish see other fish eating it will stimulate them to do so, so the bicolor was doing that to the clown who started eating 2-3 days after. I think this is the reason my hopes are up with this one.
I'll try copper alone for a week or so and if it doesen't work alone I'll use hyposalinity.
You've been a great help Bill thanks a lot.
By the way I'd like to ask you one other thing 2-3 weks ago you advised me to go hypo with my display tank to treat the regal tang, well I did that and it's been 2 weeks the tank is at 1009. the spots disappeared from the tang and I don't see any on the butterfly too, however today I noticed 3 spots on the tang could it be possible for ick to reappear while i'm still hypo? I was told this could be stress from some Ph variation (the water I dripped to go hypo is RO it's ph is 7) I tested Ph in the tank it is 8.2 This should be good however I did not understand how it remained that high, never in my life had I added buffer to my tank and Ph always was around 8.3.
I really don't know what I would have done if it wasn't for this board it's really great and whenever I take ur opinions I feel more confindent that I'm doing the right things, after all it's fish life that I'm manipulating and that's really important for me.
Sorry for the long post and thanks again.
Maroun.

[maroun.c]

I started with the copper treatment yesterday
Odinex, as per the instructions I should add 4cc onthe 1st day and 2cc on the 2nd and 3rd day.
I only added 2 on the 1st day and 1 today(i didn't go with the full dose for I know that this fish does not tolerate copper well), 2 hrs post the tratment today the fish started to swim in a jerky manner and picking on the sand and I realised that it is not seeing and it just has a certain expression like it is stunned, its eyes are like freezed it does not moove them at all, nothing covering them or anything. I shaked my hand near it to see if it will react but it did not.
I changed 25% of the water and put in some copper remover.
Can copper be the cause of this, and is it reversible, is there anything I could do?
Thanks

[billsreef]

I'm not particularily familiar with Odinex, is this straigh ionic copper, usually as copper citrate? If so this ionic form can be very tricky to use. The symptoms can fit copper OD and also they do fit some the final symptoms of the PSTD I mentioned earlier. If copper OD, then the water changes and copper remover might do the trick if caught in time.

On your hipppo in thd display tank. I would double check the salinity, it only needs to rise to 1.011 or so to allow the ich to survive. Also at two weeks it is possible (actually likely) that these spots were present on the fish earlier and just are now maturing to the point that the human eye can see them. Remember the trick with curing ick is killing the reproductive stage after it has left the host. Actually we are preventing reinfection rather than actually curing what is currently on the fish, as anything that can penetrate the fishes skin and slime coat well enough to kill the attached parasite will also kill the fish.

Hope my late night rambling makes sense and is helpfully to you ;) Starting to get kind of blurry eyed and not sure I'm making sense to myself right now ;)

[marounchahine]

Thanks for the reply Bill,
Thanks God I woke up to find the fish still alive(although I checked on it twice after midnight), it seems a bit less disoriented than yesterday, breathing a bit slower but still faster than normal, however it seems more balanced and have lost this astonished appearence. It still can't see so it still swims at the bottom of the tank but when I wave my hand in front of it I am starting to feel a little response(or is that just my imagination), I wish there was some kind of pupil light test like the one we use for people to see their reflex to light stimulus... I couldn't stay at home to watch that poor fish but got a lot of patients and should be at the hospital today. Is there anything I could do for it after I get back home today?
If this is copper OD will the blindness be reversible?
Thanks again.

[Edited by marounchahine on 05-11-2001 at 06:21 AM]

[maroun.c]

Update.
One day later, Just came back from work this morning and the Bi color is "on it's feet" again it's swimming beautifuly and no sign of white spots exept of the initial big white one, although I'm disregarding it for now, tried to feed it but it just didn't eat, but I guess it's Ok after all at been into lately?
I wonder if i should try hyposalinity for that white spot, can I put it in the display tank if it starts to eat and this spot remains there?
Thanks for any sggestion.

[billsreef]

glad to hear it's back on it's fins. I would wait for that white spot to be cleared up before moving it to the display. BTW your experience with the copper is why I have come to prefer hyposalinity for ick.

[Terry B]

Just thought I would add a couple of comments. First, I agree with Bill that it sounds like your fish is suffering from a copper OD. The reason it has probably gotten better is that the copper has probably quickly disapated. Copper levels should be tested and adjusted twice a day. Do not use copper with rock or sand. The dose is probably too low now to be effective. Cupramine is the only copper that I consider safe and effective with copper sensitive species like this. Copper should only be used in quarantine without any calaerous materails like rock and sand.
If your salinity is low enough and it is Ich hyposalinity is pretty much 100% effective. I am guessing that your hydrometer is inaccurate (most of them are). The specific gravity must stay at 1.009 for 4 weeks to be safe. This is a salinity of 16ppt or less. I like about 14 ppt. IF it is NOT Cryptocaryon irritans (most common cause of white spots) hyposalinity will not cure it. Do NOT use hyposalinity with inverts or live rock.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the reply Terry, well it's true the Bi color really got better, it started eating like a horse the second day after my last post.Yes it was copper OD for as u said water changes and copper remover did the thing.
It's really been a bad experience using a bare bottom Q tank I never got my ammonia levels down till the day I added the coral sand, that made me loose lots of fish and had me introduce new bought fish directly to my tank(big mistake that lead to all te Ich in the display tank). As to those copper levels, there was not much copper before the fish was introduced and I only added half the doses specified, In addition to that the other fish (maroon clown)was doing so well all the time. So I think it has to do with some copper tolerance levels which are specific to certain fish and I don't know if anyone knows them.I'll try to get some Cupramine, however after this experience I think Copper will be my last resort.As to the hydrometer , I used to use one of those floating hydrometers but when I satrted the hyposalinity I got my self the fillable one from aquarium systems (The LFS guy who is really a trustworthy friend told me it was the best available). One more thing Terry, the wite spot disappeared yesterday, however I am still hesitant to put te fish in the display tank and I just have started reducing the salinity in the Qtank, do you think this is the right thing to do or have any other suggetions???
My plan is to keep it in the Q tank for 1-2 weeks then to transfer it to the display tank (which is in hyppo for ich) so I think any stress from the intrduction won't lead to white spots, then a week later I'll go up with salinity in the display tank. Is it really safer to acclimate the fish to the new tank while hyppo as I seem to have the opportunity???
Thanks a lot for all the help I've been guetting.You guys are the greatest.

[billsreef]

Glad to hear the bicolor is eating again. I would leave it in Q for several weeks just to be sure.

Terry,
Good to see you pop in over here ;)

[maroun.c]

Does this mean that I should only observ it in the Q tank and no treatment or hyposalinity? cause I've already started to add the freswater and i'm at 1017. Big mistake???

[billsreef]

My inclination would be to go with hyposalinity in the Q tank.

[Terry B]

Floating hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate and usually read lower than the actual salinity. If it is only one white spot I wouldn’t be too worried. If it was several then disappearing is just part of its natural life cycle and it will be back worse than ever. Hyposalinity is the best treatment for ich, but you must have an accurate hydrometer or refractometer. The treatment should last a minimum of three weeks after the salinity is all the way to treatment level. Check the pH, alkalinity and specific gravity every day. What is the water temp?
HTH,
Terry

[maroun.c]

I am at 1009 salinity now according to my hydrometer (the water fillable one from aquarium systems i'm really not sur but it seems to be a good quality one for it gives u salinity and SG and is temp correcting as they say on the leaflet, what hydrometer would you recommend?) As to the temperature well my heater is set at 80 but within the day the temp in the Qtank gets 1-2 degrees higher for we are approaching the summer season and soon it will start to get really hoter, that's one more cause of concern for I will have to put all the fish back to the display tank which doesn't get affected as much as the Q tank by high temp for it's in a colder room. One more question, what is the max temp fish can handle without being under stress?
Thanks for the great help.
Maroun.

[Terry B]

Maroun,
You have the floating arm type hydrometer that is usually pretty inaccurate. I like to keep my fish at between 78 and 82F, preferably between 78 and 80. Specific Gravity is effected by water temperature, a true salinity measurement is not. If you have ich in both tanks you could just put all the fish together. If your tank does not contain live rock, inverts, or live sand you can use hyposalinity in the display. The maximum temperature that a fish can withstand should not be the question. Go for what is best and not what they will tolerate. Any long term chronic stress will reduce their life expectancy.
I suggest buying a LARGE glass hydrometer that is calibrated for use at a reef type temperature. Some hydrometers are calibrated for 60F. A refractometer is actually the best bet but they are expensive. A good glass hydrometer may cost you 35 bucks and they are easy to break. You need to keep the salinity at or below 16 ppt. This is roughly a specific gravity of 1.010 or 1.009 depending on temperature. Don’t forget to check the pH, alk, and salinity daily and add a buffer as needed.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the quick reply Terry, the thing is that here in Lebanon it's really hard to get a big choice, there only is one fish store in the whole country tah deals with marine fish, i'll try to convince them guetting large glass hydrometers or refracometers. One thing that's really weird, I changed half the display tank's water to get hypo the water I was adding was Ro Ph 7 and I continuously checked the tanks ph and it remained at 8.2. never did I add any buffer to this tank? could you please explain that.
Thanks again.

[Terry B]

Alkalinity is really the main factor in pH. Apparently your alkaline reserve was high enough to withstand dilution. Keep and eye on the alkalinity, because it is really what keeps the pH high.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

It's all good news so I can't but update and thank all of you guys.
Who would have ever thought that after white spots, copper overdose, blindness... This Bi-Color who supposably is a very sensitive fish made it through to my display tank, OK it was chased by my hyppo straight after introduction and for the first two days but now they get along pretty nicely, I believe it was because of the color resemblance???
Any way this Bi-Color seams now really happy in the tank and spends most of the day swimming and grazing on some mixed green and brown alga that grows on the back glass and on some rocks. Introducing this fish and seing it aclimate very smoothly and eat from the second day really made my week.
Thanks again for all your opinions they sure did work