o happy day @ lfs!

[funnyfishy]

I have been looking for a decent lfs in my area for a while, because all the others i have been to are terrible. when i visited one a few towns over.
I went there, and if you want to buy a fish, you have to fill out an form which includes your exp., tank size, other fish, parameters, etc. the staff then decides whether or not you should be allowed to buy your livestock or not. I have heard the staff tell customers a few times they are not allowed to purchase fish/inverts or corals for many reasons; they also void guarantees for many reasons
i have never seen a dead or sick fish in display tanks there. It is now my fav store! :dance:

[sdreefer21]

Whats the name and location of this store thats really cool that they care! They deserve to be recognized.

[gophia]

What the hell! Are you serious. Who in the world is going to fill out info about their setup and their expertise to buy a fish.

Do you consider a 5.5 gallon acceptable for a reef keeping? Most of you guy/gals will say NO. But there are thousand of reefer who are also keeping nanos.

I undersatnd this LFS is trying to protect their livestock from instant or chornic death from an amature, but I can't see how one person can judge if his or her tank is worthy enough for their livestock.

I don't forsee that LFS lasting long.

[posjr]

So wheres this place at?

[gtrestoration]

What the hell! Are you serious. Who in the world is going to fill out info about their setup and their expertise to buy a fish.

ME


I think in California that Pet Stores are required by law to explain the necessary care to the buyer of each animal they purchase.

I have been asked to sign the form stating they explained this to me one time at one store. And this is the store which used a lead weight in a shell which a colt was attached to.

The Colt didn't make it and then I found the lead.

Steve U

[gophia]

gtrestoration- explaination by the LFS employee is great and should be encouraged. When I bought my gf her first hamster, I had to sign a form at the petshop stating that the employee had explained to me the age, sex, and how I should care for the little bugger. But restricting if I am allowed to buy a coral or a fish based on my tank setup or level experience is a bit over the hill. It's just like ignoring someone on this great site just because he/she has less than 100 post.

In any case it's his store so he can make any policy he wants.

[safetydancer]

ok its not that extreme...
they're just sick of people coming back with dead livestock, and making sure people arent putting hippos in 10 g aquariums and stuff. i cant remeber the name, but its in southern ontario

[funnyfishy]

oops, sorry safetydancer is my friends account, i was replying on the wrong name

[koj11]

If a lfs doesn't want to deal with returns, the answer is as simple as instituting a strict return policy (which could include having customers sign copies at the time of purchase). Now, the store deciding as to who can or cannot buy this fish or that coral, this is truly ridiculous. Maybe when I go grocery shopping next, the store will decide that I am not hungry enough or have the proper cooking equipment to properly prepare my food and not sell it to me. Or Mcdonald's could decide to weigh people before they consent to sell them a McFatty sandwich. The only people this lfs is going to hurt is themselves. They will not last long if they foolishly try to keep this policy. It is, after all, a business. And if you don't make a profit, you don't stay in business. It is possible to sell fish ethically and responsibly without trying to be "big brother". If it isn't already, this store's name should be "The Fish Nazis". I have to laugh

:lmao:

[fish_taste_good]

The Fish Nazi is taken by the owner of Fish and Other Ichthy Things. :D I believe his name here is ichthyman (John).

as for filling out a form, thats a bit too much. What stops someone from lying? If people ant something, the will get it.

[NTidd]

Originally posted by koj11
If a lfs doesn't want to deal with returns, the answer is as simple as instituting a strict return policy (which could include having customers sign copies at the time of purchase). Now, the store deciding as to who can or cannot buy this fish or that coral, this is truly ridiculous. Maybe when I go grocery shopping next, the store will decide that I am not hungry enough or have the proper cooking equipment to properly prepare my food and not sell it to me. Or Mcdonald's could decide to weigh people before they consent to sell them a McFatty sandwich. The only people this lfs is going to hurt is themselves. They will not last long if they foolishly try to keep this policy. It is, after all, a business. And if you don't make a profit, you don't stay in business. It is possible to sell fish ethically and responsibly without trying to be "big brother". If it isn't already, this store's name should be "The Fish Nazis". I have to laugh

:lmao:

We are talking about lives here rather than food tho.

[koj11]

I understand that we are talking about the "lives of fish", but it really is ridiculous. Some people won't go to this store because of that policy (I certainly wouldn't). Others will go and (as has been suggested already) lie about their system to get whatever they want anyways. Ultimately, this elitist policy will only hurt the bank account of the store owner who has the egotistical opinion that he should decide who is and is not able to keep certain fish and corals.

[DgenR8]

I don't think it's such a bad idea.

What gets me is the LFS that will sell anything to anyone with enough $$$$ in their pocket to buy it. I find it refreshing that there is someone trying to protect the animal, AND THE BUYER. It's in the consumer's best interest NOT to add something to their system that isn't compatible with what's already there. :thumbsup: to the guy that cares enough to have such a policy. Since when is it private knowedge what you keep in your tank? I share that info with just about anyone that's willing to listen to me yammer on about it......

[SciGuy2]

Great. I'll fill out their questionnaire and they can fill out mine.

1) where is the fish from?
2) are you certain that the fish was collected via net and not via a chemical collection technique? state reasons for your ascertation
3) was the fish collected from and area such that there was little environmental impact to the reef? (ie from a reef that is not overfished)
4) when was the fish collected?
5) how long was the fish held by the collector? by the exporter? by the importer? by you?
6) is the fish eating in captivity? what is it eating?

Actually they can fill out my questionnaire and if I'm still interested I'll fill out their questionnaire.

[DgenR8]

I realize this is a BIG assumption, but assuming that the seller knows about the animal in question, what it eats, what it's compatible with, space requirements etc, why not provide some background on you system and experience/knowledge in the hobby so they can help you save the animal and the money if for what ever reason you can't properly house the animal?
Let's face it, if you have a tank full of triggers, and are looking to purchase a Bat fish or pipe fish, without knowing any better, wouldn't you want the LFS to refuse to sell it to you?
Once your information is in the hands of the (assumed) knowledgeable seller, he can better serve you. It's not like they are asking for your Social Security # and mother's maiden name. I think what this store is doing is admirable.
SciGuy2, You have some very good questions there, questions I would like to know the answers to before I make a purchase. Sadly, I think you know as well as I that the LFS is not likely to know the answers to most of them.
I think you're seeing it as an invasion of privacy, I see it as a very real attempt to do the right thing for the hobbyist, and the animal. I've never filled out such a form, but the owner of my favorite LFS knows what's in my tank, because I've told him, and bought much of it from him. I honestly don't feel like he's pried into something private, I offered that information willingly. Maybe I'm lucky to have a LFS guy that I consider a friend, and don't mind telling him about my tank, and what I keep in it. Then again, I have pictures in my gallery that show anyone who wants to look what I have in my tank, and the equipment I use to keep it running. To me, there's no reason to keep that a secret.

[GreshamH]

If its Fish & Other Ichthy Stuff your talking about, I can vouch for his livestock, so can Mary. John deals with best in the industry. John is extremelly environmentally concerned, unlike 99% of other LFS. He is very knowledgable person and I'd personally be honored to be able to buy from his store. Unfortunatly, I live across the states from him and his store, so thats not going to ever be possiable.

[SciGuy2]

DgenR8,

Honestly, I'm supportive of any LFS that takes the time to get to know their customer and their system and offer advice. I do feel that a formal questionaire is a bit much.

My comments are really about another issue: we should demand more accountablity from our LFS regarding where livestock comes from, how it's captured, and how it's handled.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by SciGuy2
DgenR8,

Honestly, I'm supportive of any LFS that takes the time to get to know their customer and their system and offer advice. I do feel that a formal questionaire is a bit much.
I think the paper makes it easier for them to keep track, would you be willing to answer the same questions verbally?

My comments are really about another issue: we should demand more accountablity from our LFS regarding where livestock comes from, how it's captured, and how it's handled.

That's a nice thought, but the LFS only knows what their supplier tells them. There is very little chance of a LFS being able to tell you, with any degree of certainty that "this fish here was net caught, that one wasn't" or "these fish in this tank spent 4 days in transit from Figi, those there took nearly twice as long"
Even if they somehow had this information on all their fish, I suspect very few LFS would be willing to tell you the negatives.


BTW, we're all friends here, Lee. Please, call me Larry :)

[SciGuy2]

Sounds good, Larry. Please feel free to call me Lee.

I understand the LFS point of view. It's just a shame that many fish have to endure such inhuman treatment from collection to retail. I saw a study that said that some fish have 80% mortality from reef to retail.

[Mr. 6]

I wouldn't buy from these people. It's my money and if I want to throw it down the drain I will. It is still my right to do that (for now).

I agree with the other poster....I would make them answer my questions and then if i was still interested I would maybe fill ou the one they have.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Mr. 6
I wouldn't buy from these people. It's my money and if I want to throw it down the drain I will.
And they wouldn't sell to you then.
It's their store you abide by their rules or get out.

Simple enough.

[Mr. 6]

Originally posted by SeanT
And they wouldn't sell to you then.
It's their store you abide by their rules or get out.

Simple enough.


true, either I'll be there to laugh when they go under, and I'll be getting 30-50% off in the sale, or I'll be there when they learn that what they are doing will put them under and they stop doing it.


They'll either have to stop doing it, or go under. That is my prediction.

[NTidd]

Originally posted by Mr. 6
true, either I'll be there to laugh when they go under, and I'll be getting 30-50% off in the sale, or I'll be there when they learn that what they are doing will put them under and they stop doing it.


They'll either have to stop doing it, or go under. That is my prediction.

Or they will sell fish to responsible reef keepers, and educate those that don't know what they are doing and help the overall mortality rate. I wish there were more lfs's that knew this much about reefs. I don't understand how this would cause a fish shop to go under, lfs's that give bad advice hurts business more than what this would, jmo.

[DensityMan]

Honestly, I like the practice...

Too often during my time working for an LFS I 'had' to sell something to a know-nothing, loud-mouth who wouldn't listen to reason... only to have to deal with that same person a day/week later *****ing that the damn fish died and that it was my job to replace it (regardless of no-return policies).

I would much rather buy healthy fish from a store looking to sell to responsible reef-keepers (and newbies wanting to learn) then to buy livestock in the state I have to normally in stores that bank on selling quantity over quality.

Just my 2 cents...

As long as the fish are healthy and the prices reasonable the shop should do well.

[Mr. 6]

humans in general do not like being told what to do.

By making customers sign these things all they are doing is losing customers.

They might be idiot customers, but money is money.

That is why i believe they will go under. There just isnt' enough responsible people, and even some of them will not like this, to keep the place afloat.

And besides, I'm a grown man and I do not like to be treated like a child, that is why I won't put up with what they are doing.

[NTidd]

Originally posted by Mr. 6
humans in general do not like being told what to do.

By making customers sign these things all they are doing is losing customers.

They might be idiot customers, but money is money.

That is why i believe they will go under. There just isnt' enough responsible people, and even some of them will not like this, to keep the place afloat.

And besides, I'm a grown man and I do not like to be treated like a child, that is why I won't put up with what they are doing.

Not all "grown men" know how to keep a fish alive. That's kind of like saying that keeping reefs are common sense and knowledge that you learn as you grow old. I think that the fish shop will do fine.

[Mr. 6]

.

[Puterguru]

People who think it is stupid simply won't go, others who like it will. Its as simple as that.
I heard a report on the radio the other day about a New York chef at a fairly nice restaurant who "Will not make any substitutions" period. She felt that a good dinner is like a work of art and shouldn't be changed. This restaurant has gotten allot of business because of her stance.
My point of this story, people who don't mind that will go, others won't.

[SciGuy2]

Chris,

That pumpkin avatar of yours looks like it imbibed too much.

[Puterguru]

Originally posted by SciGuy2
Chris,

That pumpkin avatar of yours looks like it imbibed too much.
:D
Yeah I know, thats why I chose it. The full size picture is funny!
Think I'll do that with one for Haalloween.

[SciGuy2]

Kids, see what happens when you eat too much candy?

LOL, thanks for the laugh!

[DgenR8]

I still don't see it as an infringement on my right to kill what I pay for, I see it as someone that is trying to save animal's lives, and save me a few bucks at the same time.
I suppose there will be some that are put off by this store's questionnaire, but I'll bet that there will be more that appreciate what the store is trying to do.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Mr. 6
And besides, I'm a grown man and I do not like to be treated like a child, that is why I won't put up with what they are doing.
Like I said, dont go into the store then.

[aprincex2]

wow! what an discussion...I would rather see wholesalers make the LFS fill out a knowledge questionaire. I went to my local LFS last week and they had a bunch of fish in quarentine,including two tangs, there was a royal gramma too. I wanted the RG and asked when they would be ready for sale. He said that some lady went to a different LFS about 40 miles north of here and the sold her a 10g tank, salt, filter and all those fish on the same day with instructions on setting up the tank. A neighbor mentioned that she didn't think you could stock a marine tank right away. To her credit she contacted my LFS and the took all the livestock and taught her to cycle the tank. On the bright side my RG is great.

[Agu]

Best LFS employee I ever worked with walked around the store with me for a half hour while I was "just looking". We talked about aquariums the whole time. When I finally made a choice and asked him his opinion he replied," Based on what you've told me about your tank and experience that would be a good choice, but start it out low to acclimate it to your lights." He had spent a half hour interviewing me and I didn't realize it ! He had me "fill out a form" while making me feel comfortable at the LFS. After that I made a point of going there when he was working ............ spent a lot of money there too.

Agu

[koj11]

I might have missed it, but what was the name of the store in question? I only ask so I can check up on it occasionally to see how they are doing.

[Kelley]

Why is everyone making such a big deal about this form? I think it is a great idea. Many people complaine that their LFS gives bad advice and doesn't really know what they are selling. This is a store that wants to make sure that you can handle what you buy. I know I would go there if it was near me. Sounds like a quality place. Maybe other LFS's should follow the lead...

[ichthyman]

Since my name was brought up twice. Yep, I am a FISH NAZI and danm proud of it.

I ask prospective customers about their aquariums and I will refuse to sell an animal to someone if I feel the environment is grossly unsuitable. When I do such, I will make suggestions on how to make the habitat more attuned for the desired item or I will recommend alternative compatible species. I base my suggestion and opinions on 20 years of practice in the hobby. Am I unfaultable, no. However, I have a lot more experience than most who walk through my doors and I trust my judgment over theirs any day. These living creatures have been plucked from the ocean for our viewing pleasure and it is our moral responsibility to strive for excellence in their care. To do any less is inhumane. If you do not agree, then I find your lack of compassion disturbing and I would suggest some counseling.

If you do not like this approach in LFS management, too bad! It’s not your store and you have no financial ties. Go somewhere else and spend your money. Fools and their cash are easily separated, so I am sure you’ll find a local or e-tailer that is eager to help. If we, the “Fish Nazis�, are wrong then a out of business sign will soon appear in our windows. Personally, I would rather go out under than adopt the “anything to anyone with money� approach that is so very pervasive in all aspects of this hobby.

John Reiter-owner
FISH and other ICHTHY stuff
Friendly Neighborhood Fish Nazi

[DensityMan]

Planning a branch in Indy, yet? :D

Good luck in your endeavor (I would definately prefer to go to a store like this, than to not have the choice and instead have to continue using the stores available to me)!

[Scuba_Dave]

Originally posted by gophia
What the hell! Are you serious. Who in the world is going to fill out info about their setup and their expertise to buy a fish.


ME!
I'll buy from them, and any other store that follows this policy. It's a step in the right direction. Might save me some $$ buying wrong fish/coral for my setup (in the past). Now I research before I buy. But how many horror stories have people read about someone who buys an entire setup & kills everything?
I've heard about a dozen too many.

[IrishStout]

Why should anyone that is truly interested in this hobby feel that that this LFS is asking of too much of its customers? It would build my confidence in the store if they asked me these questions. That way I would know that they care, not only about where there livestock was going, but what kind of customers it was going too. Believe me, it would have been nice to have aplacee like this when I was gettin started. That way I would'nt have purchased as many items that I couldn't have taken care of at the time. At least they ask. Later, Colin

[bookfish]

I notice that nowhere in mr. 6's comments did he show any concern for the animals. Personally I think that it's shameful that someone in this hobby would only be concerned with being able to do exactly what he wants. Obviously it doesn't matter how many animals have to die as long as 6 gets what he wants.
I have worked in LFS's and I am very familiar his attitude and it disgusts me.-Jim

[bookfish]

mr. 6 if you are a "grown man" then start acting like it and consider the other lives involved in your being able to do whatever you want. A selfish and self serving attitude is the privilege of children, not adults.

[radecatur]

O.K.
Here's my 1/2 cent.
I work at a pet store as well. As Agu stated "we have our ways of making you talk" :) I can generally sum up the general experience/knowledge of a person in about 45 seconds. But what about the pet stores that hire 17 year old kids? In general (and im not saying there cant be exceptions) they dont have the experience behind them to quickly sum up a customer and make a determination. So i do feel that the questionaire is a good thing. Beside, how many of you actually like showing off what you know? you're not going to dileberatly flub a questionaire if you know the answers. Its rather easy to trip up someone who is inexperienced.

The one thing that does concern me is that this hobby has alot of experimentation that helps it get better every year. If the questionaire does not ask the right questions, then they will be limiting this growth/new ideas. I guess what im trying to say is the way that the store in general take cares of livestock should not be forced upon the hobbyists providing they show an acceptable level of compitence.

-Rich

[DgenR8]

Not directing this at anyone in particular,
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, as wrong as you may feel it is. Let's keep our words constructive, and do our best to educate, not to belittle.

[Kevk]

IMO you should patronize establishments that take care of the animals that they sell and ask questions about your setup. I almost left the hobby after 6 months due to frustration generated by a purported "expert" at a local LFS. He gave horrible advice, and said if I buy this and that and everything would be fine.
Fortunatly, I found two good "LFS" stores before giving up the hobby. As inconvienent as the questions would be, it would be much better than the $100's of dollars I wasted and all the corals and fish that died because of poor advise.
You cannot tell by looking at someone, if they have been in the hobby a week, year, or decade. Selling a live fish or coral to someone with a "death tank" just to make a few bucks, is not ethical. If I am inconvienced a little bit by someone who is trying to do the right thing, even though it may cost them money, it is a small price I'm willing to pay.

[Cody M]

I agree with redecatur, I also work at a LFS and can tell the knowledge of some one fairly quickly. Fortunatly the owner cares enough to let us refuse to sell something if we "smell something fishy." I think what this LFS is doing is great and others should follow in their lead.

Just my 2 cents,
Cody M.

[mswt5]

NO FISH FOR YOU!!!!!

(sorry, couldnt resist!) :)

i think its a good thing to keep these creatures out of the wrong hands but a form seems very unpersonal(is that a word?) and doesnt help the customer out at all in the long run. And just makes the store seem like a bunch of stuck up, rich, reefers.(and there are a lot of them out there)
The customer is just going to say "screw this" and go down the road to the next store that IS going to sell it to them. And then not only is the person going to be taking his business elsewhere but we have another fish killer that is going to come walking into the store and say "OH its time to restock my tank....Again."(which means All my fish are dead, and im ready to kill some more)

What Im trying to say is, yes, they are trying to keep the animals from being killed but if they just took the time to learn a little about the customer and help them in the hobby not only would they have a life long customer but they would have a well educated non fish killer.

[radecatur]

I would doubt, although i could be completley wrong, that the form is used simply to tell customers NO. If the form were implemented for this reason, then its the wrong one. It should be used as a skills assesment to help the hobbyist in areas they may be weak in.

Maybe even a better solution would be to test and certify the customer. Upon getting a certification, they are given a card that they must show to buy that item. (of course that item also being marked on the tank)

Like:
Beginner fish: after succesfully passing the test the customer is allowed to buy damsels, clowns, cardinals, etc.

Intermediate fish:
Allowed to buy pygmy angels, certain species of tangs, anthias, etc

Advanced fish: All angels, all tangs, bats, exotic/rare, etc.

Agressive fish: Triggers, Puffers, Lions, eels

Beginner Coral: Mushrooms, Button Polyps, softies

Intermediate Coral: LPS (most species)

Advanced Coral: all LPS and SPS.

of course there are caviats that would require a special cert, but I think you can see what im getting at.


I understand that this still inhibits the hobbyist to a small degree. But in all honesty, i did my homework before ever starting a marine tank. One of the owners let me borrow 3 books on a friday night, i had read all 3 and returned them by monday morning. And yes he was shocked and a bit suspicious. So he verbally tested me on it (at my request). I didnt get everything right(going back to my previous post about it being easy to trip a newbie up), but he felt i had a good enough grasp of the basics to feel comfortable selling me a setup(with 4 more books). And personally i wouldnt have it any other way.
If someone is not willing to take the time to learn and care for the species in their tanks, they dont need to be in the hobby. Period.

And true, the person that gets turned away in my store may go to another store, but at least it didnt happen on my watch.
I cant change the negative impact to the ocean in fell swoop. but i can HELP by making sure that the fish/corals that go home in my store have a greater chance for survival.

[naesco]

What a refreshing thread about an excellent LFS.
Hopefully soon, it will be the law that an LFS or online store must post/display the country of origin of the fish, as sci-guy has posted so that reefers can avoid cyanide caught ones.

REEForm: Never buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

[saltchuck]

But again, how can you prove that a fish from the Philippines is cyanide caught without a stateside test, or one in the Philippines for that matter? To preach an outright ban on Philippine fish when there fish coming into North America that are net caught is irresponsible! Start preaching for change instead.

[naesco]

Saltchuk So what are you? A wholesaler, online store operator or a LFS. Do you import net caught fish?
I know that industry wants the trade in cheap cyanide caught fish to continue but it will be stopped.

[saltchuck]

Concerned hobbyist that has done some "research" on this issue. At the same time I question why you continue to preach shutting down the entire trade from the Philippines and Indonesia instead of shutting down the cyanide trade. How about reforming the industry and allowing the smaller importers and LFS that have embraced "reeform" and are dependant on those areas for fish to survive. Have you given that some thought? I'll ask you...where did your tangs come from??? What LFS? That way we can all be sure that you practice what you preach!!!

[naesco]

Originally posted by saltchuck
Concerned hobbyist that has done some "research" on this issue. At the same time I question why you continue to preach shutting down the entire trade from the Philippines and Indonesia instead of shutting down the cyanide trade. How about reforming the industry and allowing the smaller importers and LFS that have embraced "reeform" and are dependant on those areas for fish to survive. Have you given that some thought? I'll ask you...where did your tangs come from??? What LFS? That way we can all be sure that you practice what you preach!!!


You are a pretty aggressive young man for five (5) posts. Who are you Saltchuck?
So let me ask you a question?
Did you donate to the RC fund to buy netting for the fisherman in the Philippines?

[Skipper]

:wavehand: ...watching.

[saltchuck]

Wow, Naesco this is fun...I'll answer your question and then you can answer mine.

1. Who am I?
- Again, I'm a concerned hobbyist.

2. Did I donate?
- no, but my tank is full of aquacultured product.

How about your tank??? Where did your tangs come from? Maybe the Philippines??? How about Indonesia? Your turn.

[lllosingit]

OK kids fight nicely:D
I would support any LFS that would at least make an attemp at making sure the animals they sell go to a good home.
I know several dog breeders and I don't care how much money you have they will not let you buy a dog from them until they are sure you will care for it.
Why should fish be any different?
The way I look at it if they care enough to make sure your going to properly care for the animal then I would assume that they have also cared enough to give that animal the best care possible while they had it.
That is the place I want to shop!

[naesco]

Saltchuk or whoever you are, you have 8 posts and you know I have tangs? Why don't you go back to RDO.
I am not biting! Sorry:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DgenR8]

Excellent choice Naesco! ;)
Chuck, did you read the UA here before agreeing to it? I feel that you are only here to look for trouble, please prove me wrong.
[flamealert]

[Dz99ls]

Originally posted by gophia
What the hell! Are you serious. Who in the world is going to fill out info about their setup and their expertise to buy a fish.

Do you consider a 5.5 gallon acceptable for a reef keeping? Most of you guy/gals will say NO. But there are thousand of reefer who are also keeping nanos.

I undersatnd this LFS is trying to protect their livestock from instant or chornic death from an amature, but I can't see how one person can judge if his or her tank is worthy enough for their livestock.

I don't forsee that LFS lasting long.

i agree 100% that is rediculous no way they will last

[DgenR8]

As I said earlier, a lot of people will appreciate their approach, some will chose to spend their money elsewhere.
I commend the effort to save animals from being mistreated, even unwittingly. You have the option of spending your money where ever you want to.

[lllosingit]

I can tell you one more great reason they will stay in business it's called customer service.
I'm sure if they ask you questions they'll probably be more than willing to answer yours.
I see so many people start this hobby on the wrong foot because they got bad advice from the LFS and they gave up because they lost so much money that they can't see loosing even more.
Or can't stand watching another fish suffer and die.

If the LFS gets them started the correct way and helps them when they need it. They end up with a beautiful aquarium that they are proud of and can't wait for family and friends to come over so they can show them, They will have a customer for the life of the store.
I have three LFS near me and I will only buy from one because she really cares about what happens to the animals when they leave the store, The others don't even take care of the fish they have so why would they care what I do with them?

[saltchuck]

Alright...alright, I'll leave Naesco's tank alone. I am not looking for trouble, just trying to get an answer about the desire to shut down the trade from the Philippines and Indonesia. I have answered questions posed to me, but for some reason, my questions have gone unanswered. Again, I am not looking for trouble. When someone gets up on a soapbox and preaches an outright ban that will have devastating effects on the trade, I feel, in my opinion, that questions should be asked. I guess that is just my nature to question things that don't seem quite right to me. This is one issue that fits the bill.

I have asked how one can be sure that a dead fish from either origin has been caught with cyanide? Fish die for all sorts of reasons, one being the condition of the hobbyist's tank. Every fish death cannot be blamed squarely on cyanide as we are being told. Naesco has not answered this question.

I have also asked why the ban when reform in this hobby is already happening. Why not support those, Reefsource, that are doing the right thing supporting the net caught movement? The product is available. This support would have a much better impact on this hobby than banning two origins of fish.

Again, I will stress that I am not loking for trouble. I can sit on my hands and ignore the preachings of an individual who would like to, for all intents and purposes, shut down the marine hobby. I feel when one proposes an ideology such as Naesco, he should expect to have to answer some questions and defend his position. If this questioning is too extreme, then this is a sad sad world in which we live.

[DgenR8]

Chuck,
It's not the questions you ask that I see as a problem, Some of your questions are very relevant. It's the manner in which you ask them that made my hair stand on end. I'm not in complete agreement with Naesco, I wonder about some of the same things you asked, but the way you asked came across as inflammatory.
I don't know if you are a member here under a different name, but you have certainly left me with the uneasy feeling that you have had run ins of some sort with Naesco under another name somewhere, and I was expecting things to escalate.
You have answered questions posed to you selectively, why does it surprise you that Naesco did the same?
As far as fish deaths, there are many causes, I'm sure cyanide is one, and I'm sure it's frequently the cause, I do not accept that every fish from Indonesia that turns up dead is a victim of cyanide poisoning, especially one that lived in a hobbyist's tank for a number of of months.
Let's keep it friendly, and within the guidelines of trying to learn, so we can all derive a benefit from the discussion.

[flameangeljs]

ichthyman,
I like your attitude and think if more of us LFS had yours and my attitudes, maybe we might not hear so many "evil LFS" remarks on these forums.
I dont "make" customers fill out forms, they WANT me to keep files on their tanks !!! These files mean if they want any given animal, I know if it will or wont work in their tanks. I know when it is time to change their light bulbs etc etc etc also. A personal touch that most people really like. And yes, I have refused to sell such and such an animal many times, but try to explain why also.
Most listen and appreciate but a few do get angry. Did ask a few to leave the store also, when they said I HAD to sell them a certain animal-lol !! I dont have to kill any animals just to make some fool happy for a day !!!!

[naesco]

Originally posted by flameangeljs
ichthyman,
I like your attitude and think if more of us LFS had yours and my attitudes, maybe we might not hear so many "evil LFS" remarks on these forums.
I dont "make" customers fill out forms, they WANT me to keep files on their tanks !!! These files mean if they want any given animal, I know if it will or wont work in their tanks. I know when it is time to change their light bulbs etc etc etc also. A personal touch that most people really like. And yes, I have refused to sell such and such an animal many times, but try to explain why also.
Most listen and appreciate but a few do get angry. Did ask a few to leave the store also, when they said I HAD to sell them a certain animal-lol !! I dont have to kill any animals just to make some fool happy for a day !!!!

You guys don't have to be told that a good LFS is worth their weight in gold. Any negative comments made exclude those whose business interests include keeping customers happy.

REEForm: Never buy a fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

[sfshea]

But what's the real point of the policy?? Is it to protect the animal? Is it to protect the seller from having to take back livestock that didn't survive? Is it to protect the purchaser from himself? Or is it simply an attempt to make sure that the purchaser is making an educated purchase, and that the purchase has a reasonable chance of survival? If so, how is that any different than what we personally advocate for our own tanks???

[MarkS]

This kind of thing bothers me.

I'm setting up a 10 gallon nano reef. I plan on three fish total, one Royal Gramma (already have this) and two false percula clown fish.

The majority of the corals will be SPS. I also plan on adding one 1" - 2" Maxima clam.

While the tank is only 10 gallons, it has a 9 gallon sump with 7 gallons of water, a Remora with a Mag 5 and uses an Iwaki 30RLT for return. Needless to say, the flow through the main tank is strong. The tank is drilled, BTW. It has a 3/4" Stockman standpipe with an internal overflow and a 3/4" return.

A three gallon water change is done once or twice a month. I dose B-Ionic for calcium and use no other additives.

Lighting is provided by one 175 watt MH. Currently, the bulb is a 4000K bulb that came with the retro kit. I plan on upgrading to a 20,000K XM bulb within the month. The light is on for 13 hours per day.

The water temp stays about 75 degrees, but I do not use a heater. I plan on taking the temp up to 80 degrees.

I have 10 pounds of live rock and 1" - 2" of sand. The tank has cycled and has been set up since May.

....

So, would all of that be taken into consideration, or would I be stopped from buying a fish or coral or clam because the tank is only a 10 gallon? Does it help to know that I have more than 5 years experience?

Mark

[flameangeljs]

MarkS,
In reply to all you described about yourself and your tank-
yes, I think you would be a good customer,
and one I would want to work with.
Your animals will have a good home !!

Before I sell an animal to someone,
I discreetly or obviously (depending on the person ),
find out all you have said above.

The object ???
To have the animal have a good home-
the customer to have a successful tank,
that he/she can enjoy for years-
to save as much money/time/ etc for the customer,
in the maintenance of said tank etc.
All in all, this seems to work the best for me/the animals,
and the customers.
Obviously,
this style of doing business is only possible ,
when it is a small shop-
the owner is willing to go that extra mile
AND with hobbyists who CARE !!!!!!

[DgenR8]

Obviously, some fish should not be sold to someone with a 10 gallon tank, but it's just as obvious that you have taken the time to research what you want to put in that tank.
I would hope that anyone wanting to buy a Tang for a ten gallon tank would be denied that fish, no matter how well that 10 was set up.
I do still think there is a need for LFS to know what they are selling to who, and refuse a sale if it's something that should not be sold for what ever incompatibility issues exist.

[MarkS]

I agree.

However, some people think that any fish in a ten gallon is extreme, not to mention SPS and a clam! I really have done my research on this and have been for YEARS.

To tell the truth, I agree with the LFS. However, what if they refused to sell me what I needed or wanted because of the size of my tank?

I think it would be a good thing if I couldn't just go to the next fish store or buy it online. Unfortunately, that store will be shut down. It is just simply bad business to refuse a sell, regardless of the ethics involved. They will have to raise prices to compensate and then their customer base drops further due to the high prices. I've seen it happen. The best LFS in San Antonio and South Texas, Aquarium Sales & Service, shut down last year. I went there several times. However, their prices were often too high for me to afford. I ended up buying online or at a less reputable LFS. They quarentined all of their live stock for two weeks and asked lots of questions before selling a fish. They had knowledgable staff and owners. They were in business for more than 20 years, but could not afford to go on any longer and the San Antonio area was hurt worse by their closing. Now everyone only has the "bad" LFS' to turn to. The best one in the area is between San Antonio and Austin and there are great ones in Austin. I am not going to drive that far for anything. This means I'll be buying online. Others will be turning to PetCo and PetsMart!

[flameangeljs]

markS,
They were in business for more than 20 years, but could not afford to go on any longer and the San Antonio area was hurt worse by their closing. Now everyone only has the "bad" LFS' to turn to.

And this is just what Larry was saying in all his messages here.
If the hobbyists do not support the good LFS,
then they will only have the bad ones left !!!!
Or on line places that one needs Blind faith to deal with.

You , the hobbyists, are the ones who support and keep in business, either the good LFS or the bad LFS.
It takes more money to run a good LFS versus the bad one.
Our overhead is simply higher, as any of you who really take care of your tanks, already know.
Cut corners on your system and it will not run as well.

Also, for many of us LFS's, the dry good sales are what keeps us going. Livestock has such a high overhead to keep properly, that most of us could NOT stay in business for long, if that is all we sold !!!!!

[jay24k]

I find it funny how people complain about the LFS for giving people 10 tangs for their 60 gallong tank without telling them no but when one does tell them no, people complain. Either support the LFS or not. Personally, if they turned me down, I'd send in my wife, and write down that we have a 800 gallon tank :) even tho I have only a 45 heh.

[fishreefoctobreed]

since hearing all this about this store i am seriously wanting to go check it out and try to support such a store (if i pass! hehe) i travel through fl and would love to make it a stop. i am gld to see that there are some businesses that are looking out for the good of the industry! i have worked at a store and hated selling to those uncaring customers that had to "refill" their tanks every 2 weeks at most! and although i wasnt allowed not to sell i would ignore those customers or tell them that it wouldnt be ggod for them and tell them some horror story to disuade them. i am proud of these stores and will support them if i can! another note is that i am starting my own venture of aquaculturing my own fish and corals. partly to make it a more popular means of this business and not so much for my own profit! i have seen the warnings that it is not very profitable and so am doing it almost solely on a positive change for the industry! because together we can make a diffeence! those sell anything bussinesses are never in bussiness for long anyways. i have seen many go under and its never the ones who truly care. and i think that this is due to the many experienced customers that realize what an asset they are and all the support they get for doing things the way they do.
we will omeday have a close to perfect industry because of all the force that is being put in that dirrection by all of you intelligent reefers! we should not recognize these stores as selling things at higher prices but at the price they should be sold at and the others sores as selling "stolen goods at lower prices" most wouldnt buy stolen good, so why would you buy from irresponsible stores that take things fro the ocean without proper care?? its unethical and is headed for dissaster because we WILL run out of supply!!! and then how much will you pay for your stuff!!!

also if you had a pet in your tank and were going to sell it would you just give it to the first person that asked? or would you check on what they had? something to think about!

Congrats all the responsible stores you deliver a positive influence to the industry!

and p.s. just because you dont have a trillion posts doesnt mean you are lacking in experience!

[GreshamH]

Hopefully soon, it will be the law that an LFS or online store must post/display the country of origin of the fish, as sci-guy has posted so that reefers can avoid cyanide caught ones.

Unfortunatly, our current President is taking ALL the teeth away from ANY legistalation that might happen for marine aquarium industry reform and its likes. Had Gore won, oops, I mean, *IF* Gore actually got into office, we'd have seen a dramatic change in our hobby/trade.

PLUS- knowing country of origin does NOTHING for you to be able to know if it's collected with cyanide or not. I sell fish from both Indo and PI and I know they're clean (almost all the divers our exporters use were trained by my boss or some one he trained). Poor handling (ie. proper decompression) is just as bad for a fish as cyanide and kills just as many NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. Shutting down a country because of bad apples is just wrong, why punish the good? Think they'll pick up farming after they are no longer allowed to collect for our trade? Nope, they'll turn to even worse practices for the collection of food fish (no land for farms).

[DgenR8]

Let's avoid taking this thread down the political road, as then it would have to be closed.
Political commentary belongs on another board ;)

[GreshamH]

Umm, ok. Lets just skim over the surface of the truth then, Bush has for a fact taken all the teeth outa of 1973 endagered species act, allowing for importation of more endagered animals (fish included!!!). With that in mind, do you really think that our government is going down the road of conservation and legislation of the marine trade or just the opposite?

No politics here (just a crack at the last election), just facts and people. I named 2 people whom have opposing environmental views and what each would or is doing. FWIT, I'm not into politics and have no party affiliation except I like they way the Green party thinks (ie. conservation).

And why no politics in any RC threads? Can you please point it out where it states that in the user agreement? Thanks.

[Mr_Quality]

Fascinating post! Here are some interesting stats on this post.


Number of individuals posting in favor of qualifying buyers = 22, against qualifying buyers = 7
Mean number of RC posts among those in favor of qualifying buyers = 1451, against qualifying buyers = 387
Median number of RC posts among those in favor of qualifying buyers = 209, against qualifying buyers = 109


This suggests that:

More people favor qualifying buyers than object to it
More experienced hobbyists (as measured by number of RC posts) tend to favor qualifying buyers


That was fun!:rollface:

[Mr_Quality]

btw, if you are wondering why there are more posts than the voting accounts for. (1) Several people posted repeatedly and were only counted once. (2) Some people didn't express their opinion one way or the other.

Mike

[GreshamH]

Ooops, sorry, I'm for qualifing purchases by LFS.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by GreshamH


And why no politics in any RC threads? Can you please point it out where it states that in the user agreement? Thanks.

You know what? It doesn't. I don't want to come off like "Because I told you so" but the rules set by the Administration of this site prohibit religious and/or political threads. They have proven time and time again to be problematic, and are therefore not permitted here.
Thanks for your cooperation.

[fishreefoctobreed]

i think we are in the direction of positive change because we have the power to change it. regardless of this acts teeth or not. stores are using serious effort not to buy unhealthy fish and so those fishermen have to either starve of work for a qualified fishing company. change within the structure and not from a higher power! just as this is happening so can verything else.
in my oppinion people can complain all day about this guy and that and by the end of the day nothing has been done! why dont you worry about what you are doing to better things and realize thats all you can do! because i assure you, you arent going to make descisions for anyone else!
and on a further note please be respectfull to the staff!!! they are the reason we have this place!

[EnglishAl]

Is it really any different that asking for a sample of your water either before you buy to make sure you have the right chemistry or when you bring back a dead fish?
Just my 2c worth.
Cheers
:beer:
Alan

[PRC]

I've been searching for an lfs in the Miami area for months. I'd be thrilled to find one that actually asked me questions. I guess I'd prefer the personal interview style that agu talked about to the filling out the form method. Either way, I'd be happy to find an lfs that could answer my questions let alone know and care enough to ask me questions.
I find the attitude of "I paid for it so I should be able to kill it if I want" to be extremely sad, sick and somewhat frightening. I believe that it is a truly sad testimonial to humanity that there are actually people who feel that way about other living things.

[Undergrad]

Great thread! I for one would be willing to drive 100 miles out of my way for a store that catered to the more conciencious (sp?) saltwater hobbyist. It would be worth it just to see someone told NO. :lmao: Ichthyman, if I ever move into your area, you'll have yourself another loyal customer (who spends way too much on his tank!).

-AM-

[bookfish]

Take a drive up to the Bay area. We've got some good stores here.-Jim

[Kirk_M]

Originally posted by DgenR8
I don't think it's such a bad idea.

What gets me is the LFS that will sell anything to anyone with enough $$$$ in their pocket to buy it. I find it refreshing that there is someone trying to protect the animal, AND THE BUYER. It's in the consumer's best interest NOT to add something to their system that isn't compatible with what's already there. :thumbsup: to the guy that cares enough to have such a policy. Since when is it private knowedge what you keep in your tank? I share that info with just about anyone that's willing to listen to me yammer on about it......

I agree with you, DgenR8. I have seen countless posts here b****ing about how unethical the LFS is, and blah blah bah, so on and so forth. Now, we have one LFS that is is doing just the OPPOSITE of what all the OTHER stores do, and they bash them TOO! I know I'll get flamed for saying it (as the truth hurts), but, man, RC is home to a bunch of hypocrites (I don't mean everyone here, just the ones who have nothing better to do than complain about how expensive the hobby is, how " My LFS sucks", and so on)!

[Strandedthinker]

its a much different thing, these are live animals who have been removed from their environment on the idea that people can keep them alive in their tanks. now by this basic idea wouldnt it seem reasonable if the lfs wanted to make sure people could?

[Mr_Quality]

Within the constraints of the law, an LFS can create any business model it chooses.

One model may be to sell anything to anyone and compete based on volume and price. They would treat their sales more like commodities. They don’t need to hire educated sales staff. They don’t invest in being able to teach or verify proper husbandry. They leave that up to the consumers themselves. Success or failure is ultimately the consumer’s own responsibility. This kind of business can generally offer products cheaper. The risk here is that customers may fail if no one dissuades them from making ill-advised purchases, especially for rare, exotic or challenging animals. What will keep customers loyal to the “commodity� LFS, is their ability to offer lower prices.

Another model may be to sell on a more individualized basis, tailoring their sales to informed conscientious consumers who are looking for service and knowledge and not just the commodity. This business costs more to run because now the sales staff needs to be of a higher skill/knowledge level. More time is invested into each customer to learn how to guide them toward better purchasing decisions. This kind of business must generally charge more for their products to offset the cost of this extra service level. The risk here is that customers may eventually defect to the commodity oriented LFS, once they have been educated and feel they no longer need to pay for this extra level of service. What will keep customers loyal to the “full service� LFS, is their ability to help customers be successful with more rare, exotic or challenging animals.

IMO, as hobbyists develop into more sophisticated consumers, they will tend to buy more from the “full service� LFS, or else buy at least their “rare and exotic� animals from the “full service� LFS. That would explain the data I posted earlier in this thread.

Mike

[fishreefoctobreed]

"I've been searching for an lfs in the Miami area for months. I'd be thrilled to find one that actually asked me questions. I guess I'd prefer the personal interview style that agu talked about to the filling out the form method. Either way, I'd be happy to find an lfs that could answer my questions let alone know and care enough to ask me questions."

good luck searching PRC

but there actually isnt any "good" store in miami. by good i dont mean as far as selection i mean as for caring about where the livestock is going. some will ask just so the customer cant complain if it dies. but they arent caring for their livestock they are caring for their reportt and business with the customers.

i have worked for 2 stores and have seen the inside of the business structures of the store and sadly many start off on the right foot but then sell out to making a better profit! and thats what they need to do to survive! if not they dont turn enough profit.
so, sadly they sell more when they dont care than when they do! and another major problem with stores in miami is the superior lack of knowledge! no one seems to know a damn thing about what they are selling! if i ddnt surf the net 7 days a week i wouldnt know anything either. which is another reason i take my hat off to RC!

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by fishreefoctobreed
"I've been searching for an lfs in the Miami area for months.

A really good way to find the best stores is to be part of a local club. Have you looked here for one near you?:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=80

[Undergrad]

Within the constraints of the law, an LFS can create any business model it chooses.One model may be to sell anything to anyone and compete based on volume and price. They would treat their sales more like commodities. They don’t need to hire educated sales staff. They don’t invest in being able to teach or verify proper husbandry. They leave that up to the consumers themselves. Success or failure is ultimately the consumer’s own responsibility. This kind of business can generally offer products cheaper. The risk here is that customers may fail if no one dissuades them from making ill-advised purchases, especially for rare, exotic or challenging animals. What will keep customers loyal to the “commodity� LFS, is their ability to offer lower prices.

Another model may be to sell on a more individualized basis, tailoring their sales to informed conscientious consumers who are looking for service and knowledge and not just the commodity. This business costs more to run because now the sales staff needs to be of a higher skill/knowledge level. More time is invested into each customer to learn how to guide them toward better purchasing decisions. This kind of business must generally charge more for their products to offset the cost of this extra service level. The risk here is that customers may eventually defect to the commodity oriented LFS, once they have been educated and feel they no longer need to pay for this extra level of service. What will keep customers loyal to the “full service� LFS, is their ability to help customers be successful with more rare, exotic or challenging animals.

IMO, as hobbyists develop into more sophisticated consumers, they will tend to buy more from the “full service� LFS, or else buy at least their “rare and exotic� animals from the “full service� LFS. That would explain the data I posted earlier in this thread.

Well put Mike. Pretty much described my reef keeping hobby experience. I started in the hobby shopping at Petco while I was still a naive newbie, then upgraded to shopping at privately owned LFS, and finally moved on to where I'm at now giving my business to a few select LFS that don't use the unethical lure of cheap fish to attract customers in order to make a killing on their dry goods.

-AM-

[PRC]

Thanks for the advice DgenR8 (I was actually the one who originally posted the "LFS in Miami" line). I actually just started looking into local clubs. Unfortunately I was out of town for the first frag trade last weekend. Seems like a pretty good potential resource though.

[#626]

If lfs employees take the time to learn their customers systems, and desires for their systems, they'll be able to provide the same end as filling out the form, in a more personal appreciative manner. I would much rather purchase specimens from a salesperson who offered their advice and experience, allowing me to then judge what I want to attempt, instead of completing their questionairre having it subjected to the same knowledge/experience and being given a "yes" or "no." The purchasers competence is negated, to a degree, by such a form. Though I feel the intentions of such a notion are good, who's business is it but mine if I want to take that 6" squamosa home and put it in a 40 gallon or sautee it with butter and garlic? Theoretically of course, who would do that to a Tridacna?

[cwschoon]

Please, no politics, esp from the left coast!!:rollface:
I am with the fish nazi all the way. I used to be a sales rep in the industry and the good, specialty stores that have policies such as his actually prosper and do well. Someone new to the industry will be educated and successful and be a customer for life. I am sure that once they know you, you will not have to fill out the form either. If I had a store, I would make fish nazi and others like him look like Mother Theresa.

[SciGuy2]

Originally posted by cwschoon
If I had a store, I would make fish nazi and others like him look like Mother Theresa.

Fine and dandy if you have deep pockets and can afford to turn away business. Most can't afford to do that.

[cwschoon]

The point is, you will not be turning down business. You will be attracting responsible customers and the customers with deep pockets who want to succeed. I called on the stores in Western NY and Ontarioo, Canada, mainly and these stores did better than your "basic" store. As far as filling out a "list" goes, its really all in the delivery...you don't have to be insulting.

[DensityMan]

I've only been back at the LFS for a few months now, but I already have a few patrons that have told me they don't buy (or prefer not to buy) unless I'm there. Not because I push things they don't want or don't need. Not because I answer every question with an answer they want to hear. They come to me (I think) because they trust that I'm trying to help them along and know I'm not going to stiff them with a problem. These aren't the impulse shoppers, or rather they may be inclined to impulse shop, but ask questions first and want real answers. They also tend to spend well and come back because they are happy with their purchases and their tanks are doing well. I can't claim responsibility for their tanks doing well, but when good employees help good reefers a 'good' tank is much more likely...

The people that come in and buy fish without asking questions and then get mad when they can't get store credit for a dead fish they couldn't possibly have kept alive in the first place are not in it for the long-run. People become regulars for a combination of good service, good selection and reasonable prices.

I still shop around other places and will pay more for a fish then I can get it someplace else for if I like the store and the service/selection they provide.

My 'regulars' know that I'll ask questions and in a lot of cases I remember the details anyway... Some of the fish they buy are still 'my' fish; I fed them, I liked them and I still want reports on how they're doing. ;)

or for the short reply: I couldn't agree more with cwschoon's last post...

[lilswanwillow]

I would love a lfs that could ask questions of me: that would mean to me that they know SOMETHING about thier fish, at least enough to ask ME about the tank, and tell me what would be right for me.

The LFS near me have admitted that I know more than them... and thats scary, since its been not quite a year since i started up my nano, and only a year since i started research.

am I happy with what i know, and feel confident that i know a decent amount? ohyes... most of it comes from RC, while some of it comes from gleaning info from books, webpages, ect.

I would love to own a LFS, and have the forms... but i think i would approach it differently.

I'd have a row of tanks, from least to most difficult, and going on sizes. so, damsels at one end, huge tangs at the other. extremely difficult animals BEHIND the counter, so that if someone wants it, they would have to ask me or the worker questions... maybe color coordinated tabs on the tanks for feeding, ect.

and then, if people walk twords the end of the row, have them fill out the form.

yeah, love the idea!!!