local lfs's false advertising?

[jisaac]

ive been about town helping my cousin get his 55 started and it had never dawned on me until i read "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" and came across Harbor Aquatics that what lfs's are selling as "live rock" is a total sham. comparing harbor aquatics lush covered, colorful, full of life rock to the tubs of boring dead brown rocks that i have seen just about everywhere locally, i got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Theres gotta be something to this , theres enough smart reefers around to know the difference between premium cured live rock and uncured live rock. The worst thing is the prices being charged , up to $13.00/pound in some cases. When speaking with the owner of Old Orchard Aquarium , he tried to tell me that the decorative corals on his shelf were "uncured live rock". He also said that his live rock has all the life inside , which is why his dosent look like Harbors LR. He did however have some great LR with all sorts of coraline growth and plant/marine life on them, in his display tanks. He said he couldnt sell these pieces -- they have been curing for several years -- not for sale. He ended by saying that no one sells LR like that in his dispaly tanks , and judging by the local quality id say hes right . He had no comment about Harbor other than being real skeptical about their LR claims. So my question is; whats the deal? Is he right , or can Habor just be that far ahead of the curve? the discrepency between quality of rock is astronomical, but thats to my eyes , and i dont know much about LR, just what i see. i could be wrong---

[lexusboy]

I am in the process of getting lr for my recentrly converted 90. So what is the best thing to do? I don't want to spend fortunes on lr so what is the answer?

[kaiyokanman28]

That's probably a judgement call on your part, lexusboy. I know what I'M doing...at the end of the month, I'm getting The Package from TBS and taking care of my LR and LS needs that way.

I've heard that Harbor Aquatics has the best LR in the local area, but I haven't been out there to verify that.

I was at Splash of Life on Sunday. Though they have some great pieces and a lot of really nice frags, I didn't get the impression that they were the ones to go to right now for bulk buys. I could be wrong, as their stock is in two or three different places right now, but I didn't see anything that I could go in and get 180 pounds of LR like you would need for your 90. Again, that was a surface impression I got.

Reef Dwellers had some really nice stuff when I was there 6 months ago or so. They're in Chicago on N. Lincoln Ave.

Cheers!

Andy :wildone:

[ostrow]

See my post in the best lfs. Coral Reef Pet Shop on Lawrence, just east of Cumberland, is a great shop and Jim is fantastic and I am positive he'd give a break on a bulk buy.

Now, my tank is already established so I haven't bought rock there. But I have glanced at their rock tanks and they are most definitely corraline encusted. Very purple. As for life inside, I'm not 100% sure, and I can't remember if he has live sand or not.

BUT even if the rock only has corraline, if you get some live sand I think you'll end up being fine. At least, that's what I understand.

I agree the places around here charge a lot for live rock. Scott's is absurd. Living Sea has great looking stuff but it's pricey. My guess is though that at Living Sea you would be less likely to get the nasty hitchhikers (mantis, etc) that is typical from the mailorders. That's why you pay more there.

But I strongly urge you to look into Coral Reef, and ask for Jim. Since he's done me a couple great favors already, tell him you found out about him from Joel's post on this board. I want him to know his help to me has brought dividends and maybe he'll become a sponsor, create deals for CMAS, reefcentral, etc.

Cheers,
Joel

[vester_72]

I actually bought most of mine fro Living Seas in Park Ridge and Old Towne Aquarium in the city.

It does not have ALL of the life a Harbor Aquatics has, but after a few months in my tank - it all looks great - and is aiptsia free :)

It did have a ton of life in it - just DO NOT buy anything that is not in water and looks "clean"

JMO. . .

[PacRim]

Most of the lfs get their LR from the same distributor. That's why it all looks the same. Harbor Aquatics has their LR trans-shipped from Walt Smith's. Most lfs can't afford to do this. I agree, most lfs are selling the rock at high prices, but you can hand pick the best shapes and sizes for your aquascape. You don't always get the best rock when you mail order, hence the price. It's best if you can purchase LR from different sources to get more diversity. It costs more to do this, but I think it's worth it. I was also out at Splash of Life this weekend. Brett is negotiating with Walt Smith to trans-ship LR. Somewhere in the 3,000 lb. range! He has purchased (2) 2,000 gallon rubbermaid tanks to cure the rock. I hope this works out, so there will be a place to get good LR locally in the future!

[jcm1229]

I've bought rock from harbor and pieces from here and there. I bought Bali from Living Sea for my nano and cant say enought about it. It's more porous than fiji, has lots of interesting shapes and holes for coral and frag placement and has had unbelievable life. One of my pieces must have 5-6 different types of macro algae and I even had a small piece sprout up a small colony of polyps. I'd say - whatever you do add a few nice pieces of the Bali for some diversity. When I bought it - it was 6.99 or 7.99 - but being more porous than fiji - I considered it a great deal!!

[lexusboy]

I am doing a FOWLR so I am just going to go with like 50# of lr. I like open space but not too much. Has anyone ever ordered from premium aquatics for their lr? About the Coral Reef Shop, how much is their lr and when would he become a sponser? Also how far are they from living sea because I work right in schiller park so going to living sea is a few minutes to get there.

[jisaac]

i guess the problem i have is that living sea , old orchard aquarium etc, has rock that is just brown...wether its live or not it just dosent compare to harbors rock. its not even in the same league , yet they charge more than harbor:confused:
having read that "uncured" LR need special facilities to cure properly --and uncured is what all these locals are selling as "cured", i cant help but feel like there is some false advertisement here. Shouldnt they be calling it uncured and selling it as such? im going to Harbor in a few weeks, and if their rock is anything like the website pics, its a no-brainer. Being that its close to chicago i can also pick my pieces....i cant see why anyone would want to get rock elsewhere.

[ostrow]

Coral Reef is just a mile or so from Living Sea.

Living Sea is at Devon and Cumberland. Coral Reef is at Lawrence and Cumberland (just east of there). So it isn't far.

Again, I didn't examine the rock closely. But I remember seeing quite colorful tanks, certainly not all brown.

Than again, I don't remember Living Sea's rock being all brown either. I have no doubt Harbor Aquatics is good.

As for Premium Aquatics, I can say that Jeremy there has been extremely helpful to me, and accomodating, though I haven't ordered from him because neither he nor his contact were able to come up with Berghia, which is what I was waiting for.

That's no knock against them, either. Noone has the stuff.

[jcm1229]

Good Calcium levels will promote corraline growth and color up the rock in time. Diversity in rock also makes for diversity in life. I started my first reef 2 1/2 years ago with 30 pounds of fiji from LivingSea. Just this last month I've seen new life sprout out of one of the large pieces. I've added rock from Harbor, Reef Dweller, Old Orchard, Advanced Aquatics and also a small piece from GulfView. Add to this rubble from fellow reefers and you have one diverse tank of life.

Do check out Harbor, besides the nice rock, I ALWAYS pick up a frag or two and its only a little bit more than an hour drive from O'hare!! Do call ahead since they are often low on LR supply - especially if you want larger pieces.

[ReefHobbyist]

One bit of advise, though. If you plan on going to Harbor to get liverock make sure you call ahead to check on their stock. When the club went there ealier this year there wasn't much rock to choose from. I bought a few pieces, but wasn't very impressed with the life on them. I'm sure it was because it was the bottom of the barrel.

My first purchase of cured rock was from Premium Aquatics back when Jason was still selling out of a garage. I drove down to pick it up to save shipping cost. That was (and still is) very good quality rock).

Speaking of PA, has anyone every approched them to sponsor the club? I know I spend a lot of cash with them for supplies.

Scott

[PacRim]

jisaac - if you can find rock that looks like the pictures on Harbor's web site, buy it. I've been to Harbor a couple of times and their rock didn't look like the pictures. It might have some stuff on it, if you're lucky. I have purchased a lot of rock over the years that looked like some of the brown rock you described and it did sprout some coral and other life. I mostly look for the lightest rock I can find in unique shapes and sizes. Also, when hand-picking rock, if it smells like rotten eggs, put it back. It should have a fresh ocean-like smell. If your system is set-up right (i.e. current, lighting ect.) and maintained properly, you'll be surprised at how fast you can grow coralline algae on those rocks.

[Matt Dietrich]

I've bought Fiji and Marshall Island LR from Premium Aquatics and it's been great. Lots of color, lots of life inside and out. Also, a great bargain there is their rubble, which is fully cured and both times I've bought it has come with loads of extra critters. It's very cheap (I think it's $1.49/lb.) and extremely useful for placing under larger rocks to make caves. I set up a 10-gallon tank to house a damsel with a very bad attitude and used a pile of rubble rock in it instead of more expensive big pieces. I also like the fact that UPS ground shipping gives me next day delivery (I'm in Springfield; I'm not sure if that applies to Chicagoland).

[ReefHobbyist]

Originally posted by Matt Dietrich
I also like the fact that UPS ground shipping gives me next day delivery (I'm in Springfield; I'm not sure if that applies to Chicagoland).

Yep, sure does. I live in the NW suburbs and it has never taken more than one day to recieve a UPS ground package from PA. In fact, it's been so reliable that I never pay overnight for livestock from them anymore.

Scott

[eris8]

If youre really looking for LR, check out Reef Dweller on Lincoln. I bought 100lbs from him 3 weeks ago and the LR looked awesome. Totally covered in purple coralline w/ some life on most pieces and FULLY cured. I had no cycle w/ my LR and couldnt be more happy w/ it. Beats driving to Indiana for same if not worse LR......

[lexusboy]

What is the actual adress, also how much you pay for it per #?

[fletch33]

Gents I cannot tell you enouph about Harbor aquatics. Joy is a GREAT person. YOu go there and your family..... and the family has alot of tubs of corals growing in natural sunlight and tubs devoted to rock only. Having been there to help unload LR from WS from FIJI, its great stuff. When you do go out there to get some rock BRING an extra shirt. It will help alot for the drive home. Also see when a group of us are going out there so that you can join in the BBQ.
MANY of the LFS around here goto HA to get tjier 'priemium' LR from joy. Been there while they clear her out then travel the 1 hour to Chicago and clean people here out of thier cash then come back for more.

Ask yourself one question..... Where did Shedd get thier LR?



My .95
Fletch33

ps. did I mention they have the best prices and pieces around, and you pick them out! Not a biased view just fact :)

[jbash]

I'm a big fan of Harbor also. I've always driven there and picked my own. Joy will even let you set up pieces on the floor and work out how you are going to stack it! The big difference with HA is that they cure the rock with lights, where most places cure in the dark--and if you look for info on curing your own the advice generally is to cure it in the dark to kill off all the things that might contaminate your tank. But I _want_ most of those interesting things!

In terms of plain brown rock and whether it is cured, the easiest way to know if LR is cured is to smell it. If it smells like mud flats it isn't cured. I think almost all LFS sell mainly cured rock although you have to smell to make sure as anytime rock is moved/shipped there is some die off and additional curing time. "Curing" really means getting past the stage where things on the rock are dying and disintegrating (creating ammonia and nitrates!). What makes rock "live" is the bacteria that break down nitrates, but some live rock has much more color (coralline algae), life (sponges, algaes, etc) than others! Of course life includes mantis shrimp and other pests but I've never had that problem with rock from Joy or Jason (PA).

BTW, IIRC Jason used to get his live rock from Joy and Gary, back when he had a much smaller operation.

HTH, jim b