Help with planning my new tank

[reefyoyo]

Well, I decided to go the a cube tank prolly 20in cubed instead of a 20gal. I'm checking a few places on having it drilled and getting a stand for it. I don't think I'll have time for building my own stand. I'm won't be ordering any livestock or LR for the tank until I get it up and running.

For filtration, I'm considering a AquaC Remora. Or are there other suggestions?

Any suggestions on lights and pumps/wavemakers?

[dgin]

The AquaC Remora would be an excellent choice for that size tank (~34gallons?). It would be my top pick. A BakPak2 would work also but not as well.

Are you going to do a DSB? Sounds like you are going sumpless as well.

How about a single 175w(w/DSB) or 250w(w/o DSB) MH 20K Radium for lighting?

For wavemaking, how about a closed loop with a Sen or Quiet One pump on a single SCWD?

[tendar]

Lighting I would go with a single 150 HQI pendant.
Skimmer sounds good.
Wave maker would depend on if you want a closed loop or powerheads. I would go with a SCWD on a closed loop myself just have a hole drilled for a drian for closed loop and run the returns over the top.
Have you seen the new Oceanic 30 gal cubes at Aquariums arts. They are $350 includes stand, tank, glass cover and single NO light. Nice looking tanks just needs drilling for sump or what ever or go with acrylic.

[Fliger]

Those Oceanic cubes are nice. Do a search - there is a very long thread somewhere on RC. They can be had for much less without the stand, but the stand is very nice. I wanna say the tank is $99.

Ok here is the link. As low as $88.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155810&highlight=oceanic+cube+tank

[mx_tang]

Originally posted by reefyoyo
[B]Well, I decided to go the a cube tank prolly 20in cubed instead of a 20gal. I'm checking a few places on having it drilled and getting a stand for it.

IMHO, cube tanks look gorgeous if you accentuate them correctly. Are you thinking about making it a full blown reef chalk full of corals, or will it be sparsely populated to look more like a piece of art? Either way, I really like cubed tanks.

I don't think I'll have time for building my own stand.

For small tanks, I think you could rest the tank on just about anything. I think an acrylic stand would look really sharp, then wood. I think that a welded aluminum or iron stand looks less attractive on smaller aquariums. Wood is cheapest, though, so if cost is a concern, then you should go that route.


For filtration, I'm considering a AquaC Remora. Or are there other suggestions?

I have used the AquaC Remora with the skimmer box and it does a decent job. However, if you're going to drill your tank, you can have much better equipment that will be hidden under the stand. I would recommend that you drill the center and have a 4-sided internal overflow, so that you can have a 360° view of the tank. Then, stack your LR around the overflow. Also, you can have your return lines coming out of the internal overflow to minimize the "cluttered" look of powerheads, heaters, and all the other equipment. A Euro-Reef ES5-1 or ES5-2 would work wonders for a tank like that. Even the Turboflotor Multi pulls out more than an AquaC Remora, but the Remora gets points for aesthetics. Since lighting could be achieved with a single MH pendant, you could go that route, but the 4-sided internal overflow would get the highest intensity of light...which isn't such a good thing. Otherwise, you can get 4 sets of 55w PC's and make a place them perpendicular to each other (1 set for each side) and that would work as well.

Any suggestions on lights and pumps/wavemakers?

Since the tank is so small, it would be difficult to use any pumps or wavemakers other than the SCWD. Even a Maxi-jet would look like a behemoth in that tank.

[mx_tang]

I forgot to mention that ½" sea swirls would work out really nice as an alternating current device.

[reefyoyo]

Originally posted by dgin
The AquaC Remora would be an excellent choice for that size tank (~34gallons?). It would be my top pick. A BakPak2 would work also but not as well.

Are you going to do a DSB? Sounds like you are going sumpless as well.

How about a single 175w(w/DSB) or 250w(w/o DSB) MH 20K Radium for lighting?

For wavemaking, how about a closed loop with a Sen or Quiet One pump on a single SCWD? Tank: Yes, I'm having it drilled. Thinking about 3 holes in the back panel. Center hole as the drain and both side holes as the return. I don't like the over-the-back returns. It'll have a DSB prolly 4 inches. But then I couldn't use the Remora would have to use an in-sump model.

Sump:
Problem, with the 3 holes then I couldn't use a HOB type skimmer and thus would have to use an in-sump model. But, if I go skimmerless then I could do a fuge in the sump.

Lights:
Right now, I thinking about doing either two 175wt MH (maybe the 20K Radium) with a single 65wt PC. Or two 250wt MH also 20K and no PC. Either setup will include a moonlight.

[reefyoyo]

Originally posted by tendar
Lighting I would go with a single 150 HQI pendant.
Skimmer sounds good.
Wave maker would depend on if you want a closed loop or powerheads. I would go with a SCWD on a closed loop myself just have a hole drilled for a drian for closed loop and run the returns over the top.
Have you seen the new Oceanic 30 gal cubes at Aquariums arts. They are $350 includes stand, tank, glass cover and single NO light. Nice looking tanks just needs drilling for sump or what ever or go with acrylic. Well, a single 150wt HQI wouldn't meet my 10wt per gallon guideline. Yes, I did see the cubes at AA. That's why I started thinking of doing a cube instead of a normal 20gal. If so, I'd move all my sps into the cube and turn my current 20gal into an all Ricordea tank. Since this is skimmerless it'd me perfect for Ric's.

The SWCD's are a good idea...having it alternate between the 2 sides returns. Hmmm, now you got me thinking.:hmm2:

[reefyoyo]

Originally posted by Fliger
Those Oceanic cubes are nice. Do a search - there is a very long thread somewhere on RC. They can be had for much less without the stand, but the stand is very nice. I wanna say the tank is $99.

Ok here is the link. As low as $88.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155810&highlight=oceanic+cube+tank Thanks for the link. I'll look at it this weekend when things get a little less crazy.

[reefyoyo]

mx_tang,
Yes, it'll be a flown blown reef with mostly sps from my current tank. Wood stands are my fav. Don't much like the look of metal or acrylic for stands.

Yes, in-sump skimmer are better than HOB but are also more expensive. I've never had a EuroReef nor really looked at them. However, from what I've heard there a very efficient and usually for bigger tanks right? I'm more along the lines of no to lite skimming.

Whoa a 360 degree view!!! No way, clean 4 sides all the time. I'd spend more time cleaning the sides than I would enjoying the tank. Thanks but no thanks.

Of thing I'd like to do for lighting is have as few bulbs as possible. that saves on replacement over the course of years.

Why would say it would be difficult to use a wavemaker because the tank is so small?

[Fliger]

Hey reefyoyo, next week I'm getting a 26x26x24 which has holes drilled into the back as you described. I'm going to run those two with a SCWD & an add'l SeaSwirl. I think the holes in the back are a great way to go. I'll email you a pic if you'd like since it's similar to what you're describing. (next week) I'll post the specs below.

Regarding lighting, I don't know your dimensions but I'll bet a 150W DE would be just fine as long as the tank is not too tall. I know two people that have 2'x2x'~20" cubes that run one 150W. On my tank I'm running a single 250W DE HQI & just raise it a little to get better spread - probably to 8" above the water. I'm pretty sure that will be just fine, and it will be an SPS & clam & plant tank. A 10 watt/gallon for me would be 650W - I think with cube tanks the parameters are a little diff than long tanks. But 2x 150W would be killer! I just can't afford it.

Here's mine:

----------

TANK
Total Dimensions: 26 Long x 26 Deep x 24 High
1/2" Starphire sides & front
Polished exposed edges
Polished Starphire EuroBracing - 3"
Black trim top & bottom
Black Silicon
Black indicoat mirror back
3/4" bottom

OVERFLOW
As small as possible - needs to fit 1.5" Durso
Black egg crate
Black acrylic covering overflow
1.5" Drain with bulkhead
Durso Standpipes screwed in to drain

RETURN HOLES
Back wall - 2x 3/4" I.D screw bulkheads to fit 3/4" lockline. Holes should be 5" from top of tank. See Diagram.

***1.25� polished hole in back right corner to accommodate Sea Swirl. See Diagram.

[mx_tang]

Originally posted by reefyoyo
mx_tang,
Yes, it'll be a flown blown reef with mostly sps from my current tank. Wood stands are my fav. Don't much like the look of metal or acrylic for stands.

Wood stands match the decor of many houses, so it looks pretty nice. Acrylic would look nice if you had a matching acrylic tank, but they only look nice on Japanese style tanks where a clean, sharp, sterile look is desired. Metal stands look good if you have an accompanying Powerbook or some neo-contemporary design that has a cold look to it. It all really depends on your preference, but you can't go wrong with wood, unless the carpenter got a D- in structural integrity.

Yes, in-sump skimmer are better than HOB but are also more expensive. I've never had a EuroReef nor really looked at them. However, from what I've heard there a very efficient and usually for bigger tanks right? I'm more along the lines of no to lite skimming.

In-sump are actually cheaper than HOB. You could use an AquaC Remora, or even the Remora Pro, but I find the powerhead unsightly and they really aren't that effective without the skimmer box. Actually, that's not a fair statement, let me rephrase it; the prefilter surface skimmer box will further enhance the skimmer's ability to function by about 500%. With that said, the smaller ES line of Euro-Reef starts around $200 and comes with the pumps and all required equipment. I'd rather buy a $200 skimmer than $200 worth of corals and have them die because of inadequate equipment. Skimmerless also works, but small tanks have a tendency to have large shifts in just about every parameter compared to aquariums with more water volume.

Whoa a 360 degree view!!! No way, clean 4 sides all the time. I'd spend more time cleaning the sides than I would enjoying the tank. Thanks but no thanks.

Cleaning the sidewalls has become sort of a daily ritual for me. I've got an Algae Free magnet that allows me to scrub away without sticking my hands in the tank. Heck, people can only see one side of my house, but I have the painters paint all 4 sides. Mathematically, a 20"x20" tank with 4 sides needing to be cleaned will have the same lateral area as one pane of an 80"x20" tank, and it takes about 2 minutes to clean the latter. Heck, I don't even know what I'd do with the extra 90 seconds/day I'd save on cleaning...play with my lego's?

Of thing I'd like to do for lighting is have as few bulbs as possible. that saves on replacement over the course of years.
Fewer bulbs will be more economical in a lighting setup, but you might not get the proper light spectrum that you desire. Some like 10k, others like 20k, and there are differing opinions in between. If you are really trying to save on replacements, think about a 250w or 400w bulb instead of a 150w. The additional cost on those bulbs is $5-15. OTOH, your yearly electricity bill will be consuming 100-250 more watts/hour. Based on $.10/Kwh, a 150w bulb has an annual cost of $54.75, 250w = $91.25, 400w = $146. So, even though you are saving some money on bulbs, over a year, you're saving money by using a lower wattage bulb.

Also, you don't need to use a 10watts/gallon rule. I find that horribly archaic and nonsensical, since there are many more factors that play into intensity, which include distance, turbidity, bulb design, reflector design, ballast design, and many more that I won't bother to list because I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. IMHO, a 150w bulb will be fine for a 20" depth, especially if you are going to have any type of sandbed and LR in the tank. By going with a higher intensity bulb, you are going to run into some heat issues unless you get a sump that is on the order of at least 2 times the size of the tank. Even then, that's a lot of heat to throw off into the tank.

Why would say it would be difficult to use a wavemaker because the tank is so small?

I just think that such a small tank wouldn't require, or at least benefit, from the amount of money you'd spend on a wavemaker (diminishing returns). Though, there are probably many people who have wavemakers on a tank and their tanks look immaculate.

[reefyoyo]

Originally posted by Fliger
...I'll email you a pic if you'd like since it's similar to what you're describing. (next week) I'll post the specs below.
It sounds like one awesome tank. I'd love to see it once you get it and before you add water and set it up.

[reefyoyo]

Hmmm, well I will be going with a drilled tank so the HOB will not be possible. I have a ETSS Reef Devil 3 now. Would it be worth my time to sell it and get a smaller EuroReef like the ES5-2 as mx_tang suggested? I see that the Reef Devil 3 sells for about $200 on ebay...that'd be about the price of a small EuroReef. And besides, I'd have to buy a pump for the Reef Devil. I'm liking the EuroReef idea even more now. Thanks mx_tang!

[reefyoyo]

Originally posted by mx_tang
...Also, you don't need to use a 10watts/gallon rule. I find that horribly archaic and nonsensical, since there are many more factors that play into intensity, which include distance, turbidity, bulb design, reflector design, ballast design, and many more that I won't bother to list because I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. IMHO, a 150w bulb will be fine for a 20" depth, especially if you are going to have any type of sandbed and LR in the tank. By going with a higher intensity bulb, you are going to run into some heat issues unless you get a sump that is on the order of at least 2 times the size of the tank. Even then, that's a lot of heat to throw off into the tank. I agree that the 10wt/gal rule is not a proper measure of real world lighting environments. Yes it is nonsensical if it were used as the only determining factor. That is why I use it as just a general guideline and only one of many factors to be considered. So why am I so keen on high lighting? Well, lemme tell ya a l'il story. My 20gal started off with a 175wt MH pendant and the sps were brown. I switched to dual 55wt PC and my sps were brown. Switched to a single 96wt PC powerquad and my sps were brown. Added a second pwrquad and my sps had wonderful color.

I also agree with your other statements, ie other factors. However, how do I measure intensity in all the different spots in my aquarium? What about PAR in all the different spots? Dave's Rule: if the water looks clear, then it's not turbid :D. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to look at this from a hobbyist standpoint not a scientific one.

I first have to decide on what I want for bulbs before I can start thinking of reflectors. I can't, nor want to, look at technical data on ballast design. I'm going electronic and prolly an Icecap. However, I am open to other suggestions as I have no experience in MH/HQI lighting.

A chiller will be on the tank so heat will not be an issue.

The tank will be about 30+gal, so if there isn't 300+ watts I won't be happy. Well ok, what does everybody think about a single 250wt with two 65wt PCs? Then there could be the sunrise/sunset effect that would not really be possible with just 2 MHs. And hey, thanks everybody for your input. It's been very helpful and really made me think.:thumbsup:

[mx_tang]

Originally posted by reefyoyo
I agree that the 10wt/gal rule is not a proper measure of real world lighting environments. Yes it is nonsensical if it were used as the only determining factor. That is why I use it as just a general guideline and only one of many factors to be considered. So why am I so keen on high lighting? Well, lemme tell ya a l'il story. My 20gal started off with a 175wt MH pendant and the sps were brown. I switched to dual 55wt PC and my sps were brown. Switched to a single 96wt PC powerquad and my sps were brown. Added a second pwrquad and my sps had wonderful color.

I guess you're working on empirical evidence that PC's are superior than MH. There are so many things that can happen which can never be replicated when you switch the bulbs that it's difficult, if not impossible, to presume one light source is better than another. Sometimes, SPS will be brown until they stabilize, which could take a several days to several months; having you change out your bulbs may have simply coincided with your tank parameters being conducive to coral growth and coloration. In the end, all of this is completely subjective and nobody will know the best solution for your lighting except you, if for no other reason, to have the appearance that's most pleasing to you. Heck, I wonder what type of bulbs people use who are colorblind?

I also agree with your other statements, ie other factors. However, how do I measure intensity in all the different spots in my aquarium? What about PAR in all the different spots? Dave's Rule: if the water looks clear, then it's not turbid :D. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to look at this from a hobbyist standpoint not a scientific one.

Using a luxmeter, you can check out the intensity on a given spot. It's tedious, but if you're really that attentive to light, then it's a must. If you're looking for PAR, then go with a Iwasakis because that will give you more PAR watt/dollar than anything else. If you're shooting for aesthetics, then go with higher color temperature bulbs. It's really a trade-off and you can't have both...well, you can have both, but not without having multiple bulb setups in your canopy, or above the tank. PAR in different spots shouldn't be a concern, but a reality; if you can't get uniform lightspread and intensity, then you're not going to get uniform PAR, since they're directly correlated to one another. Just don't expect something to grow well in the shade, since I can guarantee that you won't get the same PAR value in those areas.

Your clarity rule is simplistic, but perhaps too ambitious. If you look through a cuvette and it's clear, that's not the same as you looking through 4' of tank space and having it be clear. There are suspended solids in your tank, food particles, phytoplankton, zooplankton, and all sorts of compounds that affect turbidity/cloudiness. In low enough concentrations, I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find it difficult to see through the glass, but rest assured, you can't have zero turbidity unless you are running straight ultra-pure water. Even freshly mixed saltwater has some turbidity. Organics, etc, all adds to this, but those can be removed by extraction, skimming, GAC, resins, and other filtration types.

Even from a hobbyist standpoint, there's a minimum amount of science, whether we look at the nitrogen cycle, DSB's, or go into different chemical reactions in the tank. However, I get your POV...

I first have to decide on what I want for bulbs before I can start thinking of reflectors. I can't, nor want to, look at technical data on ballast design. I'm going electronic and prolly an Icecap. However, I am open to other suggestions as I have no experience in MH/HQI lighting.

Well, since the bulbs and reflectors compliment each other, it wouldn't be a bad idea to look at mogul vs DE and their available reflector design types. Bby surveying any locals that are running them you might get a better idea of who likes what and how their growth patterns have changed in comparison to what they ran in the past.

Mogul base has a track record in the hobby as well as a wider assortment of bulbs, but DE bulbs look extremely promising. It sounds like you've at least limited your lighting type to MH. I know 2 people that are running DE bulbs and they say they're happy with them.

The tank will be about 30+gal, so if there isn't 300+ watts I won't be happy. Well ok, what does everybody think about a single 250wt with two 65wt PCs? Then there could be the sunrise/sunset effect that would not really be possible with just 2 MHs. And hey, thanks everybody for your input. It's been very helpful and really made me think.:thumbsup:

A 20" cube tank is just an odd size. You're not going to be able to squeeze in a 65w PC in 20" unless you put the lights in diagonally or offset (even 55w PC's are 21" without the endcaps and count on adding about another 1.5" with the endcaps). If you plan on getting a 24" cube tank, then you can really start to efficiently maximize bulb sizes. I'd probably get 75w 24" VHO's, but that would be my preference. If you already have PC's, then just stick with those.

Would it be worth my time to sell it and get a smaller EuroReef like the ES5-2 as mx_tang suggested? I see that the Reef Devil 3 sells for about $200 on ebay...that'd be about the price of a small EuroReef. And besides, I'd have to buy a pump for the Reef Devil. I'm liking the EuroReef idea even more now.

IMHO, it would be worth it because the pump to drive the ETS will be a higher wattage one than the Euro-Reef. That saves electrical consumption, if you're worried about that, but more importantly, will skim much better. I've seen the RD3's in action and they are quite finicky. I'd want a dependable skimmer that worked even if a dust granule accidentally made its way in the skimmer (I'm exaggerating of course, but the ETS are touchy little skimmers). Ask Tendar what he thought about the ES-5-2, since he had one on a tank for a while. I think he was happy with it, but they aren't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Heck, you could even retrofit a needlewheel pump to the RD3 and make it skim better, but that would pretty much ruin the resale value if you're thinking about selling it at a later date.

Good luck with the planning :cool:

[reefyoyo]

No I don't think PCs are better then MHs. But I do believe that the sudden coloring of corals I'd had for years, when I added the second 96wt bulb, was due to the significant increase in light. There are of course other factors to pigmentation in corals but since high lighting is so easy to do, this is one thing I'll do.

Thanks for you comments. I guess wanted to be in denial about needing to do more research on the subject. Some friend you turned out to be, making me face up to the fact that I needed to spend countless hours reading/researching lighting :p. You guys got any good links?

However, I'm not ambitious enough to do the luxmeter thing. Besides, wouldn't the tank have to be completely setup with LR and the lights to even start measuring lux in the different spot correct?

Whoops, forgot this was a 20in tank and the PCs are longer than that. So if I don't do PCs, are there VHOs that are less then 20 inches? Or maybe the tank should be 24in long so that the PCs will fit length wise? Which produces more light; a 24in PC or a 24in VHO?

Tendar, how did you like the Euro-Reef ES5-2?

[mx_tang]

I would check out "Analyzing Reflectors: Part II - Double Ended Lamp Reflectors" by SANJAY JOSHI and TIMOTHY MARKS (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/feature.htm) in this months article Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine. Although it doesn't talk about mogul, you can get a good idea of the different types of reflectors that are made for DE pendants, which include the popular AB Aquaspacelights, PFO mini pendants, and Sunlight Supply Reefoptix III. Although they only tested 2 types of 150w MH ballast and pendants, you can draw your conclusions from the same company's higher wattage counterpart.

You don't need to spend countless hours on reflector data. For example, I believe all of the DE pendants in the article performed well, but the SS ROIII really shined (no pun intended) when it was placed closer to the water surface. If you were going to light up a cube tank, then you'd need a 24"x24" spread, or thereabout. To get this spread, you'd need to raise the pendants approximately 9" above the water surface. By looking at the data, you can see that the PFO loses the least amount of light intensity as the light source is raised. If you had a smaller tank, or needed to light less than a 24"x24" spread, then the SS ROIII would be the way to go because it has more PAR within that given surface.

You can still get a luxmeter and measure it at specific points in the aquarium before you get LR and LS, but those would be estimates, at best. Also, if you want to get real fancy, then you'd need to get a more professional grade luxmeter, which isn't a luxury I can afford at the moment because they cost a fair bit of money.

For VHO, the smallest size that I know of are the 75w 24" bulbs. 65w PC's are slightly less than 24", so it's really up to you whether you get VHO or PC. If I was starting from scratch, I'd definitely get VHO's, but there's no need to go buy new supplemental lighting if you've already got the 55w/65w PC ballasts and endcaps.

Also, if you get a 24" tank with an overflow, then it won't really looked cubed unless you make one side longer and have the overflow. For example, if you had a 24"x30"x24" tank, then you could make a 6"x24"x24" overflow in the back. Essentially, that would give you 24x24x24 of true tank volume and the 24x6x24 overflow could house all the ugly plumbing, pumps, returns, water replenishment devices, etc. You might initially think that's a big space to sacrifice, but it will really tidy up the look of the tank.

Assuming you get a pair of holes drilled for each close loop and another hole for the sump, that's at least 3 holes. If they're 1" bulkheads, you'll need 2" holes drilled. The holes also need to be spaced out to at least another inch between, so 3 holes takes up 9". Setting up another closed loop will need 2 more holes, so that's 15" out of 24". The remaining 9" can be used to have a 9"x6"x24" water replenishment device (holds 5.6gallons and is basically an in-tank Nurce). The water replenishment device would gravity feed down to the sump whenever the sump level dropped. This would also free up a lot of space in the stand where you want to fit the biggest sump you possibly can down there.

If you did go with a 2' cube tank, it would be approximately 60 true gallons and possibly about 50 gallons with water displaced from the LS and LR. If you add a 20 gallon sump, then you're up to about 70 gallons. You can still effectively use the ES5-2 or ES5-3 on a 70 gallon tank. Also, if you go with a DSB, then the cube will really only be 20" from the top of the water surface to the bottom of the sandbed, so a 250w MH would still work well with some PC's or VHO's.

[tendar]

I liked the euro 5-2 it worked well.
Matt just moved his over to his 60 reef holding tank yesterday and it is pulling out all kinds of krud. He said he had to empty the cup 2 times yesterday alone. It had been running skimmer less for the first few months.

[reefyoyo]

Sorry I haven't replied, just been very busy lately. Thanks Tendar, I think I'll do that as the skimmer.

Sorry Mike but that article was to technical for me but it did cure my sleeplessness problem :). For this tank, I do not want an overflow. The 6 holes will be in the back panel as so:

o.........O.........o


o.........O.........o

The small o's will be the holes for a sch 80 .75in bulkheads. And the big O's will be for either 1" or 1.5" bulkheads. The first row will be as close to the top as possible and drain into the sump. The second will be in the middle and will be the closed loop. At this time a 24" cubed tank is bigger (more expensive) that what I want.

[wiliiam]

Reefyoyo

If you haven't bought your stand yet PM me I custom make funiture and would be happy to make your stand and hood for a great price. I have lots of refs. let me know if you are interested

and for that if you haven't bought your tank yet the above goes for that also

will

[wiliiam]

Originally posted by wiliiam
Reefyoyo

If you haven't bought your stand yet PM me I custom make funiture and would be happy to make your stand and hood for a great price. I have lots of refs. let me know if you are interested

and for that if you haven't bought your tank yet the above goes for that also

will
I don't know if this constitutes it, but i'm sorry if I broke any rules about advertising, I didn't know about it, nobody reads the disclaimer

[mx_tang]

Originally posted by wiliiam
I don't know if this constitutes it, but i'm sorry if I broke any rules about advertising, I didn't know about it, nobody reads the disclaimer

William, since this is the FRAG forum, there really aren't any enforcements against commercial posts because it hasn't gotten out of hand....yet. Just try to PM the interested parties the next time around.

[wiliiam]

Originally posted by mx_tang
William, since this is the FRAG forum, there really aren't any enforcements against commercial posts because it hasn't gotten out of hand....yet. Just try to PM the interested parties the next time around.

Thanks
I didn't know until I saw a post on a different thread. I will PM for now on
will

[reefyoyo]

Thanks for the offer, wiliiam, but I got the quote from the LFS yesterday and it was wayyyyyyy to much.

Custom tank and stand/canopy almost $700
EuroReef ES5-2 $200 - $225
Lights $450 - $500
Pump x 2 = $200 - $250
Sump $50-$100
SWCD x 2 = $80
Plumping/Fittings $75
LR $150
Chiller from past tank $0

Total almost $2000. Who am I kidding, I can't afford this. :sad1: I'm glad I went to all this trouble in planning though...at least I realized that I can't do this before I bought anything expensive. Back to the drawing board. :mixed:

[mx_tang]

Originally posted by reefyoyo
Thanks for the offer, wiliiam, but I got the quote from the LFS yesterday and it was wayyyyyyy to much.

Custom tank and stand/canopy almost $700
EuroReef ES5-2 $200 - $225
Lights $450 - $500
Pump x 2 = $200 - $250
Sump $50-$100
SWCD x 2 = $80
Plumping/Fittings $75
LR $150
Chiller from past tank $0

Total almost $2000. Who am I kidding, I can't afford this. :sad1: I'm glad I went to all this trouble in planning though...at least I realized that I can't do this before I bought anything expensive. Back to the drawing board. :mixed:

Well, at least you had a dream...think of all the time you would have wasted on something productive like working on the yard, fixing something in the house or on your car, spending time with your kids, or even sleeping if you hadn't been thinking about this project for countless hours and reading up on technical articles :lol:. I'm sure you're the better man for it, though.

After crunching your numbers, if you wanted a 24" cube tank (60g), that's only $33/gallon. If it was a 20" cube tank (35g), it would have been $57/gallon which is kind of high without any corals or fish in there. Heck, I would never buy a fish tank if I planned it out. I'd much rather buy a frivolous German Sportscar with the money than to spend the money on the German pumps and equipment on my reef. And this is a really sad cost analysis, but I would probably spend less on gas money on a sportscar than my electricity bill running all the lighting and pumps on the tank.

So, are you just going to wait until you accumulate enough funds or is this entire project being scrapped?

[Fliger]

Originally posted by reefyoyo
Thanks for the offer, wiliiam, but I got the quote from the LFS yesterday and it was wayyyyyyy to much.

Custom tank and stand/canopy almost $700
EuroReef ES5-2 $200 - $225
Lights $450 - $500
Pump x 2 = $200 - $250
Sump $50-$100
SWCD x 2 = $80
Plumping/Fittings $75
LR $150
Chiller from past tank $0

Total almost $2000. Who am I kidding, I can't afford this. :sad1: I'm glad I went to all this trouble in planning though...at least I realized that I can't do this before I bought anything expensive. Back to the drawing board. :mixed:

---------------

Or this ...

Custom 24x24x20 tank on a nice existing table with open canopy - $250 (guessing from my experience with custom acrylic tanks)
EuroReef ES5-2 - skimmerless for now or a used cheapo in the interim
Lights - 1x 250W pendant sunlight supply or pfo 10KK - $300 or less for 'slightly used'
Pump x 1x = $100, submersed, existing chiller to cool submersed pump
Sump/fuge $100 for custom sump from All Aquatics
Sea-Swirl = $130
Existing powerhead = $0
Plumping/Fittings $50
LR $120 - use existing, or start with less
Chiller from past tank $0

------------------

Just a thought - that's $1,050 & those are still some really nice items. Cube tanks are killer. I'll give you a 150G box of 'special salt' and a powerhead or two if it helps.

[wiliiam]

Yeah man you can't just give up because of a few measly bucks if we all did that none of us would ever do any thing. besides it is only money and think of all of the hours, days ,months even years of enjoymen you will have with this project

Will

[tendar]

Man I could put together a 120 for $2000.

[mx_tang]

Everybody's mileage varies with reef tanks. Some people get killer deals on used tanks through the classifieds, etc. Other people pay up the nose for inadequate equipment that they later upgrade and pay even more for it had they just bought it in the first place. Heck, I've spent $4k on my new tank and I really don't think that I'm even halfway done yet. Of course, working for a LFS or getting things from them at a discount also helps too, I suppose.

[tendar]

I dont need no special store discout to put up a 120 for $2000 just smart spending and good shopping around.

[mx_tang]

Hey, are you trying to confuse everyone with your Gregg-onian double negatives? :lol:

Yeah, I agree that being a savvy consumer allows you to save some money. Some things just cost a lot of money, such as custom tank, stands, and canopies. Also, some equipment initially cost more money than others, but from a longterm cost analysis, they become less expensive because they don't break or need as much maintenance as their cheaper counterparts.

[reefyoyo]

The dream isn't dead yet... but it is on life-support. As far as "smart spending", there are 2 items that are costing me quite a bit: the custom built tank/stand and the lights. I could eliminate the tank/stand and use a tank I have now. I've have to see about having it drilled though. Also I could go skimmerless.

The lights however, are a problem. A 175wt MH would be enough if I were going with softies/mushrooms and prolly even some LPS. But, IMHO, not enough to bring out all the brilliant colors that SPS are capable of having.

So the pricelist becomes:

Existing tank $100 (drilling and misc)
Lights $500
Pump x 1 = $100
Sump $100
SWCD x 2 = $80
Plumping $75
LR $150
Chiller from past tank $0

That's about $1100. That reasonable but still, do I really need another tank? Hmmm the more I think about it, the less I want it. What if I spent that money on some really nice sps instead. I could be happy with that too.

[reefyoyo]

I'd be willing to give up on some things, but not on lighting. That is one thing I feel is essential (we're only talking equiment-wise here) to the health of corals. Of course, money isn't exactly overfilling my pockets either. Hmmmmmm I have more thinking to do.:hmm2:

[mx_tang]

From what I am hearing from you teeter-tottering back and forth about the tank is that you'd rather setup a tank well than not set one up at all. In fact, this is really wise, IMHO. A lot of people spend a lot of money on one aspect of the tank (probably the initial cost of the tank, stand, and canopy) and then cut corners elsewhere. I also don't think you should spend less on lighting to save money if it doesn't allow the corals and organisms you plan on keeping to survive and/or thrive.

Have you thought about a 400w mogul MH? I am hearing really good things about some of the 20k bulbs. You might want to do a search on them to poll other people's experience with them. I would say that a 400w over a 24" tank would be sufficient for most SPS and clams that you are thinking about keeping. Also, don't skimp on the reflectors because these are an integral part of getting light down into the tank.

Can I ask you why you have $100 for tank drilling and misc? What else do you need to do to a tank that would cost $100?

[tendar]

Have you considered the Oceanic 37 gall tank (24x18x21)? They run around $100 give or take $15 and have that dilled or even have Oceanis drill for $15 I believe. It is a really nice tank size and I have mine up with sps and clams for a year with a single 250w Halide mogul and a single 55 pc and the sps and clams grew like crazy with great color. Buggle (Le) has it now and had it drilled and put in a overflow.
I am not for sure what lights your looking at the cost $500 for a 24" tank but they must be killer. You can get a 250 HQI with Icecap ballast and all for around $300.

[mx_tang]

I think Reefyoyo was planning on having a MH pendant with VHO or PC supplementation. The MH's should only run around $300-350 and the VHO's with bulbs and ballasts would be around $200.

[tendar]

If you go with PFO or Sunlight supply you can get the halides mogul for around $200 retro.
Use hello lights for a a retro pc fixture for $100.

[mx_tang]

Gregg has a good point with the retro kits being a lot cheaper than the pendants. Also, if you go with any non Icecap VHO ballast, it will save you a lot of money right there.