What looks like Ich, but isn't?

[Rovert]

I'm now in my 6th day of treatment with KichIch, and the fish seem to be getting worse, instead of better. Is it possible that I've misdiagnosed the problem?

The fish were at first lightly 'salted' with white spots, and natually, I assumed ich, since they were new additions. Now, they are fully coated with white spots that seem to have a haze around them, but possibly that's from them scratching.

I've followed the instructions to the letter, starting with normal dosing, but escalating after day 4 to additional days when I realized the condition was advancing.

Can someone help?

[zerrez]

How do their fins look? Are they rotting at all?

[Rovert]

No rotting or tattering that I can see.

My options are:

1) Hopysalinity bath (mixed up a bucket of ~1.019, but my concern is further stress and/or shock from this procedure.

2) UV sterilizer.

Anxious to hear everone's thoughts on this.

[Personifier]

Are the spots really small and close together giving a velvety appearance. If so it is probably amyloodium (don't know if I spelled that right) If it is the only cure I know of is cooper. Hypo-salanity doesn't work. What is Kick Ich?

[Rovert]

No, the the spots are distinct, and not "fuzzy" at all. They look almost like grains of sand attached to the fish. But some areas between the spots look 'soft', as though the fish might have had something there, but scratched it off.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Rovert
they are fully coated with white spots that seem to have a haze around them,

Brooklynella, moves fast. We use formalin. Also try OTC Quick Cure.

[Rovert]

Landescaper -

I have some Formalin that I got for my FW tanks. Would you suggest I give that a shot? My concern with chemical treatments is always that it's not good for the fish. Also, I have a few inverts in the tank. A red sea fan, spiny gorgonian, tiger cowry, and a sally lightfoot. Will they be OK?

[Bomber]

Rovert
Don't use formalin on inverts, LR, etc

quarantine tank only.

Jerel

[Rovert]

Landescaper -

Didn't hear back from you last night, and wanted to nick this right away, so I dosed once with Formalin. Used 90 drops for a 55g tank, inverts seem OK for the moment, but I'll do a water change today to dilute a bit.

I don't have a Q tank, and I don't want to introduce the inverts to my Reef tank, for fear of spreading this to 2 tanks, instead of just one. I also have 75# of Live Rock in there, so that complicates matters further.

Still stumped. Any help appreciated. I'm beginning to think I might be hosed with this situation.

[Bomber]

Big Oops!

If it's a strong enough dose to kill paracites, it will kill inverts too.

Do you have a clean bucket and airstone?

The problem is going to be - you can probably clean the fish, but if it is Brook, it's still in your tank. It's going to be hard to tell if the fish is really clean too.

Good luck.
Jerel

[Rovert]

Never a dull moment. Well, it seems the inverts made it through the night. I just dosed once again with KickIch, just because if it is ich, I don't interrupt the treatment.

Now the hippo tang looks like he has less spots on him. Not quite sure what to do here.

Yes, I do have a bucket that I use for mixing water. No airstone, but I can buy one. What's your idea?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Rovert
What's your idea?

A bucket, airstone, and a bottle of Amquel makes a good make-shift Q-tank. Cover it with a wet towel to stop jumpers.

[Rovert]

Thanks. Any recommendations for how to handle the live rock? If the Brooklynella (or Ich) is still in the tank, how do we handle that?

[Bomber]

Whew,
Well not knowing exactly what this is, your best bet is remove all hosts and let the tank sit host free for about 2 months. Sorry. It's a good time to add to your invert collection though. But don't forget, parasites can come in attached to any hard surface, including new inverts.
Jerel

[Rovert]

Landescaper, thanks for your help. What's your take on Garlic?

I think I'm going to try to ride this out with KickIch, and see what happens. BTW, I see you're out on the Island. Were you at the BAS event on the 13th? Will you be going to the NJ event this coming Monday?

[Bomber]

I'm not allowed to comment on garlic, Horge knows where I live. :D and I have to sleep sometime! Be afraid of the force.

BAS. nope but by proxy

Nope again, got too many "critters" to keep up with.

Good Luck
Jerel

[Rovert]

Not sure I know who Horge is, but thanks anyway. Sorry we won't be able to meet in person, but maybe some day.

[Bomber]

> http://www.geocities.com/horge1218

Everything you ever wanted to know about garlic, but were afraid to ask. LOL

[Rovert]

Got it. Thanks.

[Rovert]

Lost the 2 tangs last night - hippo and yellow. Niger trigger not looking too happy about things, either, and seems to be fading fast.

Interestingly enough, there is a single blue damsel that is happily plugging away, completely unphased by any of this.

Still seeking ideas on treatment. Either the KickIch wasn't worth the bottle it came in, or what I have here isn't ich at all.

[jimi]

Just my two cents but Lande scaper had the best idea. Remove the host for two months. I would treat the fish with hyposalinity or copper. Most "ick cure" medications dont work or reports are extemely varied at best. The only proven two are hyposalinity and the old reliable copper.

[Rovert]

Jimi -

Thanks. As you can see, copper wasn't an option, given the inverts in question. Looks like I'll just have to wait it out. I wonder if the sea fan and gorgonian will eat the parasites? :D

[Bomber]

Moving really fast, sounds like Brook.

Open these and go down to the Brook threads.

> http://petsforum.com/cmas/november98.htm

> http://www.dfwmas.com/newsletters/98feb.htm

[Rovert]

Thanks, guys. I was wondering if a bath would be the way to go. Looks like from now on, I'll have to keep a spare heater, airstone, and Formalin on hand.

Please feel free to chime in on another thread I'll be posting re: conditioning baths.

[billsreef]

Sounds like you got some good advise there. My .02 on "reef safe" ick cures is that they are unreliable at best and pure snake oil at the worst. Garlic so far shows the best track record of any of them at the moment. However if you want to go for totally reliable cures for ick, brooklynella, amyloodinium or other protozoan parasites you must treat in a seperate tank with such things as copper, hyposalinity (specific gravity of 1.009-1.010), or formalin. These are just as lethal to any inverts as they are to the parasites.

[rrrrob]

Everyone is so quick to tell you to start poisoning your tank with all these medications without asking you the basics:

1.) Water quality: Have you checked amonia, temp, nitrite, nitrate, pH? If any of these are out of range, you are causing stress to the fish, which lowers their natural immunity to ich. Correcting these parameters will eventually result in recovery without medication.

2.) Is there anything else that might be stressing these fish out? Is there fighting going on?

3.) How old is the tank?

If you have good quality water, with a community environment, and an established tank, ich should be no problem. I know it's probably too late, but I would have told you to stop all treatment, ensure the above are all in line, and that the ich would go away by itself.....Medication always seemed to make the problem worse, resulting in death (which should be no surprise--you're just stressing the animal out even more).

In the last few years, I have decided to NOT treat animals with ich, and guess what? They always get better on their own. And, by the way, this whole garlic fad du jour seems silly to me as well....

[TerryB]

Brooklynella looks more like excessive mucus with strings of it hanging off the fish. It is usually concentrated around the gills and head. Kich ich only works less than 50% imo. I am betting that it is ich complicated by a secondary bacterial infection. Hyposalinity is really the good option at this point. You will have to move the inverts and live rock or the fish. The best way is to treat in quarantine with hypo and an antibiotic.
Terry B

[Heinrich]

Do a search on quarantine tanks, you can set up a chep quarantine tank for around $35.
clear rubbermaid tub, hang on heater, spongefilter and airpump or powerhead sponge filter or hang on filter, glass hydrometer and some hiding areas is all that is needed. Some ammolock by seachem, Maracyn2, cupramine and a glass hydrometer along with a coppertestkit are a good idea.
Yeah do a really good test on your system Formalin is really toxic to most inverts as well.
Another thing is if you had large open wounds from scratching adding formalin is like adding Hydrogen peroxide to an open wound and will only make things worse. Do a hyposalinity treatment so the fish can recover and spend less energy on osmoregulation. Don't know if you want to keep that damsel since he's probably causing quite some stress.
So keep the system empty of any vertebrates for 4 weeks minimum.
Do some research on treatments. Terry B is very knowledgeable as well as Billsreef.
The description you gave doesn't sound like brooklynella but who knows, best to do a hyposalinity treatment which is effective, at least for the time being for Brooklynella.
Good luck.
93! Heinric