I am sick of money grubbing LFS!!!!

[216@aqua]

Once upon a time,

I knew nothing about fish aquariums. So I relied heavily on my LFS. They told me, as any salesman would, that certain fish, lighting, corals, equipment, on and on and......
would be great.

I'm sure some of you can relate. :)

Now as a semi experienced owner of an aquarium, I can see all of the unethical stuff that is going on. Sometimes I try to test LFS to see if they will actually sell me that full grown Angel in my 55 gallon reef tank. And most likely the answer is yes, after knowing that I have a tank way too small for this fish.

In fact, just the other day I tried it again at a LFS in L.A. I asked the guy, would you be willing to sell me that coral. He looked at it, and then looked at me and said,"Sure, How is $15 bucks sound?" The coral was bleached! It was white, not one polyp on this sucker.

I guess I am sorry for my venting, but as I dive deeper into my readings, I see where maybe things are headed if not already. Destruction of pristine environments from money grubbing LFS owners. I blame the LFS because they are the ones who should be ethical, they should teach those how to treat each animal with respect. They should teach people where the fish came from, and refuse a sale if someone does not have a proper reef environment. I don't care who you are, every expert in this hobby has been that person who did not know any better.

Regards

[SteveC]

Well, I am not trying to defend such avarice, but I do wonder how many LFS owners start out with every intention of being as ethical as you describe but slowly wear down over time in the face of making payroll and putting food on their tables. It's easy to talk about always doing the right thing when you don't have bills piling up, rising costs, Lisa needs braces, etc. etc. If LFS owners were all living in mansions then I could see demanding more responsibility from them, but I don't get that impression.

When selling that big angel to the guy with the 55g means being in the black instead of in the red, it must be awfully tempting even for a very ethical LFS owner who loves the hobby. And I'm sure the store employees are generally under pressure to make sales rather than deny them.

I think the best answer is to educate the hobbyist rather than expect the LFS owner to act as the hobbyist's guardian. But I am still new to this hobby so I may change my mind after some more experience...

[flameangeljs]

216@aqua,
Not sure what kind that coral was, but as $15.00 is pretty cheap for a coral- you both (owner and customer )knew it was bleached !!! Or should have known , anyway.

I really wonder why it is that LFS owners are expected to be Teachers and protecters for every hobbyist who comes in.
In YOUR job, do you teach everyone who speaks to you , how to do your job ????
NO- you dont, of that I am sure.

Yes, I do teach and protect, but I really wonder why hobbyists dont appreciate that EXTRA service !!!
They should take the time to learn , as I did, before they go to buy anything ....

[achillestang2002]

flameangeljs

I agree with your comments. Granted there are some LFS salesmen that take customers to task but most of the ones I know spend the time educating the customer and assisting them in every way. In my opinion it is the responsible of the customer to become educated in the hobby so they don't have to rely on everything the salesperson is telling them. Not to defend the unethical type but most work their tail off to assist!

[cwschoon]

Lots of hobbyists take advice from the LFS then trundle off to the Wal*Mart, or worse yet, come in and inform the LFS guy that " I just bought such and such from the Wal*Mart, now tell me how to make it work". IMO, many LFS's get a bum rap. Hard not to be cynical if you are a LFS sometimes.

[flameangeljs]

come in and inform the LFS guy that " I just bought such and such from the Wal*Mart, now tell me how to make it work".

I have gotten this 3 times today and yes, I did take the time to teach them how to make it work--but, does it bother me ??? YES !!!!!!

[flameangeljs]

Destruction of pristine environments from money grubbing LFS owners. I blame the LFS because they are the ones who should be ethical, they should teach those how to treat each animal with respect.

Hobbyists want and BUY the animals that we LFS sell. so as you are the "end" here- the LFS is not the one ruining the pristine environment. Am I correct in this ??

And is it not your responsibility to learn how to take care of and respect that animal ??
Yes, we should help you and many of us do- but it is YOUR responsibility to research their needs also.

And on "money grubbing" ??? hmmmm, do you get paid on your job ??? Shouldnt we ?? Which I might also add, is a pretty LOW paying job . Most of us smaller LFS owners would make far more if we worked at McDonalds !!!!!!!!

[cwschoon]

In Canada, there is not the big box store phenomenon to the extent that it is in the USA. When I was selling stuff to LFS's, I could usually work some kind of discount to offset the Wal*Mart prices. Plus, the people who generally go to Wally World usually wanted the really cheap stuff that the LFS did not sell. I remember being in W.M and seeing people in line with a pleco and a goldfish in the same bag. The good old days....

[216@aqua]

I am glad to see people respond. This was the intent of the post. I wanted to see how some people would react. However, it is clear that some people have taken it to the extreme. First of all, I was talking about some LFS's, and not all. Secondly, the coral was just a frag, and yes this is cheap, but it was dead! Thirdly, you are right about customers being the end. But I am not simply commenting on supply and demand. Everyone knows this concept, I was just trying to say that if LFS taught customers certain requirements for animals then maybe some customers would shy away from difficult specimens until they were ready. In a sense, this might reduce demand for these creatures.

And lastly, I am not asking LFS owners to act as guardians. This is not there responsibility, but with every profession you assume a role to act as ethically as possible.

Thanks

[flameangeljs]

216@aqua,
I realize there are LFS out there that do not really help the newbies and are just good "salesman".
But, for those of us who try our best to teach our "people" , refuse to sell any animal that the customer is not ready for etc, it can get very disheartening, to hear us all lumped together as money grubbers with no hearts.
Especially after a day of teaching people how to use equipment they bought elsewhere, how to help the animals they call me to "fix" that they bought elsewhere etc.
I give everyone as much time/advice as they want, whether they buy from me or elsewhere-so hope you understand why I resent being referred to as a "moneygrubber" who is ruining the environment etc.
And I know there are MANY good LFS out there who feel the same way as I do when hearing this stuff.
(by the way, if a bleached coral is given a GOOD environment, it can return to a healthy state. )

[216@aqua]

I understand fully, and that is why I tried to say some LFS, but I guess you would have to defend those out there. After being in this hobby for over a year I have learned a lot. I just want those people that were once in my shoes to not believe everything they here, and hopefully will find a good mentor to point them in the right direction. So we can respect the animals that we take from their home.

Thanks

[battplus]

It's hard to get info. from LFS if they are dishonest! I had to learn through here or from fellow reefers.

[Dimi-reef]

The Local fish stores are supposed to be the expert. They are in business, which comes with responsibility like it or not.

How would you feel going into your dentist for a teeth cleaning and they give you a crown instead. Part of being a business owner is making sure you are ethical and are willing to work with YOUR customers that walk into your place of business. IF not why not just go into politics where people know you are full of doo doo?

[SteveC]

Dentistry is a profession requiring years of expensive training. Dentists recover the cost of that training by charging you for their time and expertise. Even if the dentist just has a look at your mouth you will be charged for an office visit. Certainly the dentist does not make his or her money exclusively by selling the materials used to fix teeth at a markup.

Aquaria retailers are retailers, not consultants. You can't expect them to provide the level of expertise you are demanding and only make their money by selling stuff at a slight markup. And I do mean a slight markup, considering how upset hobbyists get at high prices. They certainly can't charge you for every visit.

Do you expect expert dietary advice from the staff at your local McDonalds? Do you expect grocery store clerks to provide you with culinary advice? Or the person at the auto parts store to tell you how to rebuild an engine? Sometimes these people can offer suggestions but it's foolish to rely exclusively on them. People who work retail make very little money, are poorly trained, and probably hate you. Go watch the movie Clerks, then go get yourself some books and read up on things before you buy them. I don't think it's that hard.

[flameangeljs]

Dimi-reef,
Just for the record, I do have the "expertise" and do give it away FREE for HOURS to each and every customer IF they are WILLING to hear it. And even when they have bought the equipment or animals from another store and just come to me for advise.

But- do you think ANY of these same "customers/clients" would be willing to PAY for these consultations ??? The lawyer and Dentist CHARGE for the advice-right ??
As aquaria retailers, we are EXPECTED to just give it away free, some of us do and others are not willing to and I really dont know which of us are the better "business" people !!!!
Please remember, we are in business and TIME is important to us too. I spent YEARS learning this hobby and many more years of hands on experience learning ,and YES, I pay for the books and phone bills etc to keep learning.
You have the same responsibility to learn also.
Why do you expect us to "hold your hand" so you dont have to pay for those books etc ???

Steve C. thank you for seeing the "other side"
:)

[porky]

I can only speak for what I have witnessed at my own LFS's and the situation locally, is, in a word, appauling!
First they employ these stupid kids who don't know the first thing about fish, and don't even go there about corals.
On a side note, I actually heard this salesperson (kid) explaining to someone a reef ready tank and the purpose of the bulit in overflows. Apparently they are a great place to put sick fish (or bullying fish) just put them in there, treat 'em, and they will be fine.
Then the mark ups! At least 2 or 3 times as what you would pay on the net. And I know they have to pay for retail space but c'mon $49.99 for yellow polyp rock with about 20 polyps? They would rather let corals die than mark them down. I will never understand how they can afford to keep corals that are dead or dying rather than mark them down since they are overpriced to begin with. They will not budge on prices.
From mishandling coral and fish, to promoting irresponsible fish keeping the LFS in my area need to be cleaned up. If they treated cats or dogs the way they do reef animals theywould be locked up :mad:

[cwschoon]

There are good stores and bad stores. You should go to the good ones. If enough people do this, the bad ones go away. Unless you have worked in an LFS or been in the business in some way, you just can not understand what it is like to run a store. They hire young kids because they cannot afford to do otherwise. I managed a fish department briefly-I got out because I could not handle it. It was not my store so I could not tell the "customers' to go f...themselves. I have been in many a screaming match with people who want to mix koi and Chichlids, panther groupers with blennies, etc,etc. I did, however, train my "young kids" and by in large, they did fine. I am not making excuses for the LFS who does not train staff, by the way. As far as mark up goes, you should go to the stores who are more expensive, as their costs are more because they are aspiring to your and my standards. I think 2 or 3 times as what they cost on the net is a bit exaggerated but look at the overhead difference. On the net, you pay and take your chances. You really should find and excellent store-they are out there-and give them your business.

[porky]

You know what? If there was an "excellent" LFS I would support them. We have one locally that is fairly knowledgable but you pay for that knowledge because they too are way over priced. And 2 or 3 times the cost of livestock versus the net is not exaggerated. How about a blue mushroom rock, discosoma, with about 5 polyps, $59.99, it should be about 1/3 of that for regular blue shrooms!
And the old argument of not being able to see what you buy on the net doesnt hold weight with me because my experience has been that the livestock I get on-line is 10X better than the crap I see locally.
Underlight tanks, underfed fish, dead or dying corals, the LFS scene here is pathetic!

[cwschoon]

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe the LFS is overpriced, I don't know.Who ever said knowledge was free? Why don't you do research,gain your knowlede and just buy your stuff off the net? In my experience, the more expensive but good stores are the ones that stay in business. Let the marketplace dictate.

[porky]

"Why don't you do research,gain your knowlede and just buy your stuff off the net?"
First things first, I DO research, I research every animal BEFORE I buy it, because I know my success with keeping these animals is directly related to the amount of research I do on the animal BEFORE I buy it :D
It is in fact, this same research, on places like RC that has shed the light of truth on some of these LFS scammers.
Better question would be "Why can't I get health livestock @ a decent price from a local fish store?"
As for "free knowledge" that I get from them is worth about what they charge for it: NOTHING!

[cwschoon]

You sound so bitter....life is full of scammers. Its just that you generalize so much when there really are many good stores who care. There are way more idiot reefkeepers than scammer stores. If and when I ever open a store I would be more expensive than most. I would want all of your $ but not right away. I would try and give such good service that you would be happy to pay me 20% more for my livestock because it would actually live. Those are the stores that prosper.

[porky]

Bitter? Not really. But the name of the thread IS: I am sick of money grubbing LFS!!!
Right?
Well sounds like a forum to vent to me.
Look if the LFS in your area are great why dont you start a new thread "Let's hear about all those great LFS". I would be willing to bet that it would turn into a LFS bashing thread in no time. Because ethical fish stores are far and few between.
The consensus on this board is that most LFS are money grubbing scammers, so it's not just me or my town but nationwide.
"I would try and give such good service that you would be happy to pay me 20% more for my livestock because it would actually live" so because you fulfilled your obiligation as a proprietor you will change an extra 20% eh? Remind me to steer clear of your store ;)

[cwschoon]

maybe you should just stick to the web. What I ment was that I would hire people who actually gave a damn that I would have to pay twice as much as the "kids" in your store, I would pay for the best salt, lights, etc I would pay more for a certified non- cyanide fish than one out of the Phillipines but they cost more! Thats all I am saying. A store that buys the best livestock, charges you more and gives you solid advice SAVES you money in the long run and promotes the hobby. There are threads about bad web order sites and threads about good LFS. You should get out more and see some of them. Many think that most reefers are whining,weasely cheapskates. I don't necessarily agree with that either. To end this banter, all I am saying is that I called on the good salt stores from Rochester to Quebec City for 10 years and there are many good ones out there.

[porky]

"I would hire people who actually gave a damn that I would have to pay twice as much as the "kids" in your store, I would pay for the best salt, lights, etc I would pay more for a certified non- cyanide fish than one out of the Phillipines"
Then why don't more stores do this?
Because they would probably be out of business in a week as your competitor would eat you alive!
"Many think that most reefers are whining,weasely cheapskates."
Many? Only ones I hear spouting this are money grubbing LFS owners trying to defend thier bretheren.

[cwschoon]

enough already

[rallendorph]

Permit a brief segue....

I draw a parallel to the Audio industry. Understanding ahead of time that no analogy is perfect....

LFS are no different than the various local HiFI parlors. Each of the Hifi stores sells a sub-set of equipment available to the market trying to differentiate themselves from their competition. While each of them is perfectly willing to let you buy whatever you ask for, the better stores will all try to educate you as to why their product is better, and deserves your money. They know that return business is crucial to their survival. However, many will sell you equipment that is not appropriate to your system. These stores are already dead. They, just haven't stopped kicking yet.

Why ?

Enter the superstores: "Tweeters", "Best Buy", "Circuit City"... these stores have all but destroyed the Hi-End Audio market. Why - simple. They can buy / sell based on volume. The small specialist shop cannot compete on low-Fi to mid-Fi sales. So, why then do these superstores not put all the HiFi shops out of business ? Answer is simple again. Putting together a system that works well together is more than connecting parts together with PIN jacks. The folks in the superstores rarely have a clue. The folks in the HiFI Shops live by their ability to demonstrate to you how good their products can sound or look.

The Superstore may even contain some high-end offerings. Question, Does the high end store ever sell these high-end products ? Answer: Nope - almost never. Why are they there then ? Answer - By demonstrating how close the Mid-Fi equipment sounds to the Hi-End, Hi-priced equipment they can sell more of their Mid-Fi stock. Does the Mid-Fi equipment actually sound that good ? (relative to Hi-End) No.... It is a result of not correctly configuring, matching, pricing, or otherwise setting up the Hi End product.

You want an example of a good / great HiFi store, then folks in St. Louis area should look up Music for Pleasure. They are a model of how you provide service & value back to the customer. They sell high-end product which costs mucho geld. (So - not the place your going to go buy a boom box. right ?) They survive, since they know their products and can articulate, and educate the consumer who may be a newbie, or veteran as to the value of each solution. (Note: IMHO Best shop in town. Flips is ok, a few others so-so, the rest... already dead.) Go listen, decide for yourself.

Many similarities in designing a good audio/video system as to say building a healthy, aesthetically pleasing Reef tank. What equipment do you buy ? How do you set it up for optimal performance ? How did you figure this out when you started ? Did you all start an intensive research project, and spend months learning the basics before entering a LFS ? Did you go on Ocean dives to understand what your trying to replicate ? Or did you go to a LFS, and ask questions, and seek guidance from the LFS ? Did you inspect the answers the LFS gave you, or did you accept them, and continue down the path. I expect that your initial experiences were in general not what you hoped for.

A LFS is a specialty shop. The Aquarium business has been around for a long, long time.... The internet is a pseudo Superstore. Those LFS that do not build their business on demonstrating value will not earn repeat business. No repeat business, no store. The folks running these stores have a right to charge a premium. They are supporting an environment which you can sample before purchasing. However, if a LFS charges me $400.00 for a $150 pump (real scenario), and I find out about this (I did), they are not going to keep my business (Yep - they lost). Instead I will find a shop that takes the time to educate me, and help me make an informed decision. This is ultimately their value (Thanks Glen). I reward these stores with business. Personally I don't mind paying a premium, as long as I derive some added value.

Note, I don't expect to buy bulk product from the LFS. There are other reasonable and cheaper alternatives. But, I do expect that I will be a regular customer to those stores I frequent, and accordingly they will win their share of my business.

Anyway... My point is that a specialty shop is worthless in any market if they do not provide you added value. If they do, then reward them with your business. Think of the rule of 10. One out of 10 <fill in the blank> is actually worth your time or money. If you find this rarity - don't lose it by nickle and dime'ing them. Otherwise you will eventually lose a valued resource.

Thanks, for listening...
Rob A. :beer:

[cwschoon]

rallendorph: not a bad parallel. As someone who sold drygoods to hundreds of LFS and superstores over 10 yrs or so, the specialty stores who pay their staff REALLY well-certainly, not the norm-, pay to train them and take the time to stock the best, stay in business and turn a profit. The best stores invariably pay a bit more to buy their stock or take the time-and time is $-to hand pick their stock must charge a bit more. I would give you $ 79.00 for a fish that would live for 5-10 yrs before I gave you $ 60.00 for a cyanide caught or poorly housed one.
P.S. Superstore wanted to sell me Pioneer but the "specialty" store sold me Yamaha. I think I made the right decision.:)

[battplus]

Hey rallendorph,
The major discount stores are there because of cheap@@# people who want a low price on their equipment to try to out-do their neighbors.

I run a pair of DCM tower speakers, TOP OF THE LINE, and I completely agree with you on these differences. You go to a high end store for the products, and hopefully the advise, but if your going to shop at super-crap audio stores your getting what you pay for------ JUNK and BAD ADVISE!!


:mixed:

[SteveC]

Originally posted by porky
"Many think that most reefers are whining,weasely cheapskates."
Many? Only ones I hear spouting this are money grubbing LFS owners trying to defend thier bretheren.
I am not an LFS owner, I do not work at an LFS, and I do not know anyone who owns or works at an LFS. In fact, I find many things about the retailers in my town lacking. However, I do think there are a lot of whining, weasely, cheapskate reefers out there (or at least, out there on internet forums like this) who want to have their cake and eat it too. In particular, there are the ones who can't be bothered to buy a $30 book and read it, but get upset when the free advice from the LFS turns out to be wrong. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone like this who gets fleeced or otherwise misled by their LFS, though I do have sympathy for any critters who pay for that person's stupidity.

What's wrong with some of you people out there? It's bad enough that you want other people to do your thinking for you, but then you don't even want to pay them for it? (This isn't addressed at anyone in particular, and it's meant more as a rhetorical question.)

[Agu]

I worked for a money grubbing LFS and I put up with the whining customers. Quite frankly they deserve each other.

"My waters green, got anything to fix it ?"

Tell me about your tank ?

It's this big (holding hands somewhere between 12" and four feet apart) what you got that'll fix it ?

What do you have in your tank ?

"About twenty goldfish, you going to sell me something to fix it or am I going somewhere else, I don't have time for this. "

Tell me about your filtration ?

"Goldfish don't need no filtration and you're wasting my time" as the customer leaves...

Then the owner tells me "Just sell them some "Cycle" that fixes everything. (they sold lots of Cycle btw)

That was my first customer and not my worst :rolleyes: , I lasted three weeks. Work in an LFS then complain........the customers can't be bother with actual thought and the owner wants to sell product.

Agu

[porky]

"I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone like this who gets fleeced or otherwise misled by their LFS, though I do have sympathy for any critters who pay for that person's stupidity."
The animals are my ONLY concern, I do however take issue with any LFS "fleecing" anyone! Face it, you're not gonna get rich runnig a LFS, if you wanna make a lot of money sell software or something else. Only those who have a love and true appreciation for Marine life should be in the business of selling these animals. The reef is a finite resource, that should not be exploited to no end!

[SteveC]

If your concern is for the animals (a concern that I definitely share!) then it seems like the best place to start is with educated hobbyists. Educated hobbyists are extremely unlikely to do business with a lousy LFS, but even the best LFS can't prevent an uneducated hobbyist from making stupid mistakes. Most people who do business with bad retailers do so because they just don't know any better. Educate the hobbyist and you put those bad stores out of business.

Maybe the valiant efforts people have made to educate collectors in sustainable harvesting techniques need a stateside equivalent of educating the hobbyist. Perhaps a booklet that can be provided free of charge at participating retailers would be a good start. It's just a thought.

Porky, are you located in Columbus, Ohio, or some other Columbus? If you're in Columbus, Ohio then I can certainly understand your complaints about the LFS situation, though I should mention that one store isn't too bad if you know which employees to talk to. (And to other people, Porky's complaint about prices being 2 or 3 times higher than etailers is not exaggerated.)

[flameangeljs]

note here on different pricing--
If one is located in California or Florida-- the prices will be lower for livestock, than they will be in Ohio or Pennsylvania.
This is because of the shipping /freight costs and the extra losses due to shipping problems/stress,etc.

All livestock/live rock etc comes to LAX and those dealers near there, will of course have lower prices.

Also, most e-tailers do not have shops that deal directly with walk in customers. They either have warehouses (and who actually sees them before buying ) or they are "jobbers". (which means they take orders on the phone etc and then go to ANY wholesaler and have the wholesaler bag and box the animals.

In my case, I am very fussy about WHICH wholesalers I deal with to avoid cyanide caught animals. Are you ???

Also, Walk-in customers can see the fish eat-what the tanks look like etc and they can make the choice to buy or not. Can you do the same via the internet ? One hopes you include the shipping/handling costs when comparing prices also.

[SteveC]

flameangeljs: Thanks for your reply. I think you made a good point and I wouldn't object to the markup so much if I had a better understanding of how it got there.

If I were confident that the stores in my town were only dealing with ethical wholesalers and making an effort to avoid cyanide caught fish and other bad things, I certainly like to think that I would pay the difference (I know the stories of "concerned" hobbyists who balk at the higher prices).

However, given the types of things I've seen in the local shops, I am not confident that they are doing those things. When, even with shipping costs, I can save close to 50% on a small order of inverts for a nano tank by going through an etailer, it's hard to justify supporting local business even though I really want to. I mean, $9 each for scarlet reef hermits compared to $2.50 from most etailers? If I buy ten I'm already saving money even including the shipping.

I would of course be willing to pay the higher price to buy a fish that I can see, but for inverts and live rock it's really hard to justify paying extra with no additional incentive (e.g., knowing that I'm supporting an ethical store, etc.). I do think my town is unusual in this regard, and if your store were local to me I'm sure I'd happily do business with you.

[flameangeljs]

$9.00 each for scarlet hermits ???? OMG, no wonder my shop doesnt make money-lol !!!
(my price is $2.99 )
On the live rock issue, yes, the e-tailer will be cheaper than my price ($8.95 per lb walk in price) but then again, mine is well cured/clean/restocked with various critters and is colored up.
This higher price relates to shipping costs of approx $3.50 per lb., and the cost of month long curing/cleaning/lighting etc.
( complete water change daily alone costs money )
When you add up the costs and time involved in curing/cleaning the e-tailers rock-mine is cheap !!!!

[mikrok]

i wouldnt pay $6 for a scarlet reef hermit or $11.00 a pound for fiji rock in "fair" condition. However, i didnt mind paying $89 for my purple tang who has been in MY tank for about 2.5 years WITHOUT any disease outbreaks. I find my favorite local fish store extremely knowledgable, and a little overpriced on some things, but i don't mind it for the most part - and i do have my favorite employees that i seek help with. I did work at a big pet store and it was horrible for me. customers who couldnt understand english, "ya ya"-ing me to death, buying fish i was dis-recommending to them due to either the fish's health or the customer's tank or my thoughts on their hobby experience. I used to get yelled at for spending time with customers, explaining what works and what doesn't, my personal recommendations. well - i just quit a couple days ago and i couldnt feel more alive.

[GreshamH]

Ummm, ok for yet another side:

I work in wholesale, I know exactly what retailers pay and thise quote is wrong:

And 2 or 3 times the cost of livestock versus the net is not exaggerated. How about a blue mushroom rock, discosoma, with about 5 polyps, $59.99, it should be about 1/3 of that for regular blue shrooms!

Ok, your talking about an item that wholesales for at least $15(up to 18), then add shipping and related costs, it comes out around $22. Your saying they should sell it for $20? A Loss? Great business tactics. A retailer is DEAD if they can't pull at least double. The etailers usually don't house items and usually don't go the typical wholesale route of having a wholesaler ship them(added cost) to their own facility, they tranship(cut out the wholesaler) or they're located close to a wholesaler and they don't house any animals at their "facility". The biggest etailers don't house a single animal, even though they claim to have the "best" facilities in the world (LA wholesalers typically do have the best, so the animals were housed in the best, just not at the etailers office ("facility")) and have biologists on hand to take care of the animals. You complain about a $6 scarlet, they wholesale for 1.25(yes, theres a price break on quantities), yup the same price the etailers offer it at. How can a retailer compete with that. They buy it at the etailers selling price, have to pay shipping and ALL costs of doing business, and you want it for how much? I agree $6 is a bit high. But, can you pick your etailers brain, or actually see the product in person? Etail for the most part is a plague, and they're way more money grubbing then most LFS. They can care less about how, or where items are collected and what impact they have on the world. Yes, they claim many things, but almost none truly believe what they type. Now why would one go into a etail business, lowball the entire market, not be money grubbing? BTW, isn't the entire basis of business, to be money grubbing? If you gave it away, you'd not be in business, you'd be a charity.

[SteveC]

I don't know where the $6 figure came from, but my complaint was about $9 scarlet reef hermits. As in $8.99. There is another store in town that has them for $5 which I would be willing to pay if I didn't despise the place. But flameangeljs sells them at his store for $2.99, and Danville, PA can't be that much cheaper to ship to than Columbus, OH.

I have generally sided with the retailers in this discussion, in that I think many of the hobbyists' demands on this forum seem rather unreasonable, but the fact is that some stores really do suck, and some towns have nothing but stores that suck (or at least could do better in terms of pricing). I certainly don't object to them trying to make a living and I don't think this makes them "money grubbing". But when they charge such high prices and do not show the expertise to make those prices worthwhile, my usually strong preference for spending my money locally is substantially diminished.

[flameangeljs]

just for the record here-- I am sure you all know that quality costs more !!!!!!!!
If you want cheap- then you must expect that "corner cutting" will be necessary . IE- poor animals due to less (or none) water changes, low grade or no food, cut rate shipping (standard instead of overnight for example )low lights, kids for employees etc etc.

These animals do not come from the old U.S.A--and as one who knows a great deal of what is involved within this hobby, believe me, you are lucky all these animals are not double what you are paying for them at any LFS..
Try working in a LFS for a couple of months and then lets see how you feel about prices !!!!!
(better yet, open your own saltwater store -your eyes will be opened fast )

SteveC-scarlet hermits are a loss leader here and are bought in quantity, hence the cheap price.

GreshamH-sure can tell you understand the business--thanks for helping explain it. But I would be jumping for joy at $18.00 for a five blue mushroom rock , wholesale !!!! They are more like $22.00 from my ethical wholesaler. Plus shipping/box fees/ice packs/etc....

[rallendorph]

To use my earlier post for reference, the LFS quoted me $400.00 for a pump that is generally available on the market for $165.00. They also quoted me $400.00 each for 2x pumps that were generally available on the market for $260.00 give/take. Hmmm..... I bought all three at market rates from another LFS.

I believe in establishing relationships with your local specialty shops. IMO this is a great way to increase your view and exposure into a hobby. However, there is no great cost to the LFS for selling me a pump (or any other dry stock item) they are ordering from a wholesaler. Shipping on items such as these, is nominal.

So, as a LFS owner, why would you expect me to source my equipment from you when I see such glaring (to me anyway) discrepancies in the pricing. This retailer lost about 6G in business from me for this reason. (Another LFS earned most of this.) In fact, I almost cancelled the order for my tank I had placed previously with this LFS. (In the end, the tank was what I wanted, so I kept my order) To me this is clearly gouging, and not sound business practices.

Rob A. :beer:

[SteveC]

I have just found out that Phishybusiness (http://www.phishybusiness.com/) is located in Columbus, so I feel I should say that my previous statements are about the stores in this town that I've been to. :) Maybe there's hope after all!

[porky]

Hey Steve C, Phish is the only place in town I deal with, he is not retail, by appointment only @ his home. I just met Serdar last year @ a frag swap and have got ALL my corals from him since. But I still have to go to the LFS for fish food, salt and supplements. And of course I cruise the tanks and look at the prices and just shake my head. Sad situation. I really dont consider Phish a LFS because he runs the business out of his home and really does not meet any the above mentioned criterea. He is very knowledgeable, healthy livestock and GREAT prices. Locally he is in class of his own. I was just over there Saturday and picked up some nice zoos and Ricordea.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And 2 or 3 times the cost of livestock versus the net is not exaggerated. How about a blue mushroom rock, discosoma, with about 5 polyps, $59.99, it should be about 1/3 of that for regular blue shrooms!
"Ok, your talking about an item that wholesales for at least $15(up to 18), then add shipping and related costs, it comes out around $22. Your saying they should sell it for $20? A Loss? Great business tactics."
Okay about half of that then :D

[llpoolej]

We have a few LFS here, and I have been to two of them. The first one is very large and does a big business. My husband remembered them from when he kept saltwater FO tanks 15 years ago. We went there, and having been 15 years we asked for help. A high school kid who was very nice helped us. We were not given any good advice. Me, thinking only of how it would look in my kitchen, picked out the wrong kind of tank. They gave us what we asked for without any advice on alternatives or why we might want to think about this or that. I *asked* for this information.

So, tank is up and has water and salt in it. I start looking around the internet for information. I find a few good websites including this one and see some really glaring errors. I look for LR in town and a LFS that sells freshwater and reptiles points me to another LFS. What a difference. They *helped* me. They gave me the pros and cons of things, nicely said that I might not want to do this or that. We have spent a pretty good amount of money there and I doubt I will buy my animals elsewhere. They take the time to answer my dumb questions. And I have alot of them.

I think there will always be places that don't give good info. As a customer, it is up to you where you want to spend your money. If someone *wants* to be told what they want to hear, they will always find a place that will do so.

[laxing22]

Originally posted by SteveC

Do you expect expert dietary advice from the staff at your local McDonalds? Do you expect grocery store clerks to provide you with culinary advice? Or the person at the auto parts store to tell you how to rebuild an engine? Sometimes these people can offer suggestions but it's foolish to rely exclusively on them. People who work retail make very little money, are poorly trained, and probably hate you. Go watch the movie Clerks, then go get yourself some books and read up on things before you buy them. I don't think it's that hard.


:beer: :thumbsup:

[rallendorph]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SteveC

Do you expect expert dietary advice from the staff at your local McDonalds? Do you expect grocery store clerks to provide you with culinary advice? Or the person at the auto parts store to tell you how to rebuild an engine? Sometimes these people can offer suggestions but it's foolish to rely exclusively on them. People who work retail make very little money, are poorly trained, and probably hate you. Go watch the movie Clerks, then go get yourself some books and read up on things before you buy them. I don't think it's that hard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

McDonalds and grocery stores are examples of retail discount stores. They are not specialist shops. If I go to Morton's for a meal, I certainly have an expectation that the waiter will provide me input on meal selection. And I have a high expectation for the service I will receive. In return, I am willing to pay them more money for the pleasure of frequenting their business.

Likewise, if I go to a Deli / Smokehouse for my meats, I have a higher expectation of the quality product that will be available Vs the local grocery store. I also expect that over time I will develop a relationship with the Deli folks, and gain additional benefits. I do not look to the local grocery store for this level of interaction.

Likewise, an LFS is not a discount store. They are a specialist / fine product retailer. Pet's Mart is a discount store. I don't expect the service or knowledge from Pet's Mart employees that I do from the LFS. Don't you agree ?

So, whether I am a experienced hobbyist, or a newbie. I have an expectation that the specialist / fine retailer is going to provide me added input, and service as well as better product. For that service I am going to pay them a premium. If they charge too high a premium, then I will likely go shop elsewhere. But, they do have a right to charge it.

Conversely, the comments about an educated consumer are not black and white. It is not correct (IMO)to expect the consumer to understand the nuances of aquarium support that you the LFS owner / worker have developed over an extended period of time. True - ignorant customer's are difficult. But Jeesh... your in the service industry. So, educate them. Win repeat business, be successful... If you can't, then your in trouble since your competing head to head against the super stores that can buy and sell it cheaper than you. Not a long term success strategy.
Yes I know you can't please everybody. But if you don't try, then you lose.


Peace,
Rob A. :beer:

[flameangeljs]

Win repeat business, be successful
Repeat and loyal customers are the backbone of staying in business and yes, helping to educate them and taking the responsibility for their animals welfare far after the sale, is very important. ( and one I strongly believe in too )
But, repeat business means one will be successful ???
Not financially in this hobby/business, but successful as a person, yes !!
Trying to compete with the internet as far as price goes, it is impossible to be financially successful. Hobbyists simply do NOT pay the price for information and care and they do NOT understand WHY it costs us small shops more money to give them that extra quality and service.
It is a slap in the face when I spend an hour explaining the relationship between calcium/alkalinity/ph and how it affects different coral and fish, only to have them tell me that- "$8.95 for that ?? I can get it off the internet for $6.95 ". And they do !!!!
( my mark-up on that product is $1.95-so that means the person thinks my time/knowledge/experience is worth $1.95 per hour only, but they were not even willing to pay that much)

I love my business, and most of the customers, but the title of this thread does bring out the frustration also.

[oz]

3 out of 5 LFS I go to have poor customer service, unfriendly help, etc.

[achillestang2002]

flameangeljs,

You are correct when you talk about all the time you spend with someone to explain ... whatever and then they complain about a minimal price difference. Good employees at a LFS will spend the time to educate the customer on any given issue and to have a customer order the items you recommend and have readily available on the shelf is frustrating. However, we are expected to bite our tongues and live with it - which by the way we do. Yet LFS are money grubbing - I guess I don't get it.

[SteveC]

Originally posted by rallendorph
Conversely, the comments about an educated consumer are not black and white. It is not correct (IMO)to expect the consumer to understand the nuances of aquarium support that you the LFS owner / worker have developed over an extended period of time. True - ignorant customer's are difficult. But Jeesh... your in the service industry. So, educate them. Win repeat business, be successful... If you can't, then your in trouble since your competing head to head against the super stores that can buy and sell it cheaper than you. Not a long term success strategy.
Yes I know you can't please everybody. But if you don't try, then you lose.
I'm not sure if you're using you as a generic pronoun or to indicate me specifically, but just in case it's the latter I want to repeat that I am not affiliated any LFS in any way, shape, or form. I'm just trying to see both sides of this issue.

[rallendorph]

SteveC -

Nope, meant "you" in generic sense (Like royal we as in 'we are not amused') not "you" as in SteveC the person. :)

Sorry about that. All good.


flameangeljs -

While repeat customer's might not be enough to insure success, I gotta believe that they represent a sizable portion of your business. And, not having them would certainly be heading down a dark path.

Are my assumptions about repeat customers True in the LFS business ? Or, do you think the percentage of sales are opportunistic ?

Rob A. :beer:

[flameangeljs]

rallendorph,
95% of my customers are repeat and long term. As I do not advertize, they have mostly come as referrals from other customers. the last 5% come in from my website and so far, have become repeaters also.
I might also add that they drive anywhere from 15 minutes (5% ) and up to 4 hours , one way. Pa is pretty big and everyone has travel time in this area.
There are no just "walk-ins off the street" and all do know what kind of place they are dealing with before they come in.
This helps a great deal.
As far as successful money wise, this is the wrong business, in the wrong part of the country, to get rich though.

[Hombode]

As a beginner in reef keeping, I have had to rely heavily on my LFS for information and suggestions. But although I was new to reefs, I was not new to keeping an aquarium, so I knew about making sure I dealt with reliable, ethical sales persons. I spoke with several large hotels in our area that have reef aquariums in their lobbies, and I also spoke with persons at our local zoo that deal with marine life about who I should rely upon for my supplies, and most importantly, information. All suggested the same two LFS in the area, and several gave me online sources. I settled on one LFS to deal with, and in the beginning I doubled checked their prices and information given to me. They have always been with close range, price wise, of places I've checked on line, and their information and suggestions have also been aggreable with the majority of others.....I've learned there's always several differing opinions as to how a reef should be set up and taken care of.
There are always going to be unethical persons in a wide variety of business that take advantage of unknowledgable persons. Sadly, that's just human nature. But when all is said and done, it is the consumer's responsibility to take control and arm themselves against these rotten persons; to do that, it is important that the the consumer read up on reef keeping, investigate their options, and check-out who will be the LFS they deal with. If beginners in the hobby did that, then soon all those unethical LFSs would have no custormers and go out of business.
One other suggestion, I have dealt with the same sales person in my LFS each time I need supplies, fish, equipment, and information....that way she knows what's in my tank and the plans I have for it. I also tip her for taking time with me when I go in asking a million questions. By doing that, I have developed a relationship that benifits us both, her with extra tax-free income, and me whenever she comes across something unique for my tank or when something goes on sale.
Didn't mean to make this a book, sorry about that, but wanted to give my 2-cents. :D

[flameangeljs]

Hombode,
YOU are the kind of hobbyist ,that I wish ALL were !!!!!
Thank you for posting and Good luck with your tank/animals..

[DgenR8]

I found a semi local LFS employee that I felt I could trust. He worked for a store that many on the 'Net don't like too much due to law suits filed by said LFS against hobbyists that felt slighted by this store and posted on the 'Net about it. I'm sure more than a few of you have heard the horror stories.
This LFS employee went on to open his own LFS. His prices are somewhat higher than his old employer's, but I go to his store 10X to each 1 visit to the old store. I don't really mind the higher prices, the quality of his livestock, and advice make up for the difference.
I have said this many times before, but if you are lucky enough to find a truely GOOD LFS, support that store! Spend the extra $7.00 for a bucket of salt, pry the added $6.00 from your wallet for that HEALTHY fish or coral. Take it from me, one day you will NEED that LFS. I have my LFS owner's cell phone #, and if I need something, I can call him. He'll stay late waiting for me to get there, he'll even open the store on a day it's normally closed because I need to do a water change, or buy a CC star fish to feed my hungry Harlequins. This is worth more to me than the added cost of buying from him over mail order.
There are plenty of other stores around where I could get that bucket of salt cheaper, but how many of them will stay open an extra hour waiting for me to get there? The answer is NONE. Folks, there is more to it than just price, this LFS owner has become a friend to me. He cares about my tank almost as much as I do.
Yes, there are money grubbing LFS's near me, I've watched more than a few of them go out of business since getting into this hobby, and I'm sure others will follow.
I, for one will gladly pay the extra few dollars to insure this kind of service, and I think you should too. (that's a collective "you" BTW)

[Kevk]

We have many LFS's in my area. Many I will not go into because it breaks my heart to see corals and fish that will die because they are in poor health and the people who buy them will get bad advice.
I do not and most reefkeepers I know do not go to the closest LFS nor do they buy corals from the closest LFS. Fortunatly I found a good LFS before I gave up on the hobby. I remember being told if I just buy this new thing your tank will be great and things will stop dying. It was the advice and the corals that were the problem. I found a good LFS threw away the junk and set up a nice live rock system and things are good.
Walmart will never sell RO/DI water salt, or other consumables.

[kevinpo]

I own/operate a LFS specializing in reef aquarium setups. Here are a few of the things I do to provide the added service to be outstanding among my competition:

Ask every customer how they heard about the store.

Ask what size and type of tank they have.

Do they have a specific goal for the tank.

Inform them that most of the corals and all of the plants they see in the store are grown in my tank at home.

I keep a copy of Marine Depot and Custom Aquatic catalogues (they are my pricing benchmarks) handy to show my customers that I can meet or beat most of their prices without even including shipping.

Provide free water testing performing the tests in front of the customer and noting the numbers on a post-it for them to take with them.

Open the store on closed days or wait for customers after hours if they really need something (even a $10 item).

When a customer asks about a fish in regards to reef compatibility or tank size. I walk with them to the book rack and look up the fish with them in Scott Michael's book even if I know the answer already (this sells a lot of books but the purpose is to help them to see how easy it is to get accurate information themselves). BTW Petco in my area sells this book for $28.95 and my price is $21.95 a customer today brought it to my attention as they were pretty impressed.

I sell no fish that are not eating prepared foods or do not look healthy.

I do not sell fish to people that have too small of tanks for them (again I refer them to S.M. Pocket Guide to Marine Fishes).

Most of my liverock is in my display tanks fully cured and ready to use.

Each new customer gets my business card when they leave with the RC business card printed on the back and a recommendation to register and do some research (read fun exploring) of the site.

Regards,
Kevin
PS: My furthest customer so far drove 700 miles one way. I have 5-6 that drive 300-400 round trip.

[mswt5]

I work at the LFS and it gets really old hearing the same old remark all the time...."The stupid KID at the LFS is an idiot!!". Im 21 yrs old, Im a marine bio major at the local college. Ill be the first to admit that I dont know everything about everyone of the fish in the store, but I try. If I dont know the answer to a question Im gonna ask. And believe me I feel like a fool when Im turning and asking someone else about every question the costumer has(usually about cichlids :rolleye1:) and then the customer thinks Im "the stupid kid at the LFS". In the 4 months Ive been working there Ive learned A LOT about all of the different fish and other areas of the business, like pond stuff. Until you get out there and learn every little piece of info on every fish dont complain about the kid working there that doesnt know every little spec on the fish you have just researched and were just testing him on. There are other customers asking him about every other fish in the store that he is trying to learn about aswell.
I used to complain about prices at the LFS but after working there for a while I understand a lot more about what contributes to those prices. As far as merchandise, you can find almost everything much cheaper online (and at WalMart) than you can in the store. Not only do we have to have some kind of mark up on the product to stay in business but most of the time we are even paying more for it than it can be found for on the internet. I wanted to buy something a while back. Retail price was around 45 bucks. Internet cost was 25. Cost we had to pay from the distributor was 38!!! Meaning we only got 7 bucks for the stupid thing. Then we have customers that call us up and after 10 min on the phone with them discovering their fish have ich from the 90% water change they just did, they have the audacity to ask us, "Can I buy that medicine to cure it at WalMart"?
As for fish, there are 2 different types of LFS when it comes to that. The kind where the tanks havent been cleaned in the last year with fish dieing everywhere selling damsels 3 for 9 bucks because they are cyanide(sp?) caught.
Then there are the ones that clean their tanks on a regular basis with healthy fish coming from a good distributor. Not only does the distributor charge more but it does cost money to keep those tanks running(food, salt, and other chemicals). We change 1/3 of the water in the tanks every month. We have a total of 830 gal of saltwater in our store. Thats 276 gal of salt water we replace. You do the math on that cost. Now add all those costs up and tell me what your get.
You get expensive fish and corals.
Think about some of these things the next time you visit a LFS. And try to have a little bit more respect for the kid working his *** off to know 20 yrs worth of fish knowledge.

[ichthyman]

Hallelujah and amen, brother mswt5. Preach on my friend.

Look me up if you ever move to the Tampa Bay area of Florida and need a job.

[JazzMan]

MY LFS is absolutely terrrific!!!!!

[oz]

I went to my LFS (SuperPets) this past weekend and couldn't help but overheard this new kid employee at LFS recommending to a customer fake rock deco over live rock saying it was easier to take care of and less maintenance. And the LFS was overflowing with new shipment of Fiji live rock. Not only was this bad advice, it was bad for their business.

[mswt5]

HAHA....thanks ichthyman.....

[Soma]

Originally posted by cwschoon
There are good stores and bad stores. You should go to the good ones. If enough people do this, the bad ones go away. Unless you have worked in an LFS or been in the business in some way, you just can not understand what it is like to run a store. They hire young kids because they cannot afford to do otherwise. I managed a fish department briefly-I got out because I could not handle it. It was not my store so I could not tell the "customers' to go f...themselves. I have been in many a screaming match with people who want to mix koi and Chichlids, panther groupers with blennies, etc,etc. I did, however, train my "young kids" and by in large, they did fine. I am not making excuses for the LFS who does not train staff, by the way. As far as mark up goes, you should go to the stores who are more expensive, as their costs are more because they are aspiring to your and my standards. I think 2 or 3 times as what they cost on the net is a bit exaggerated but look at the overhead difference. On the net, you pay and take your chances. You really should find and excellent store-they are out there-and give them your business.
I agree with porky, both stores in my city that sell marine livestock want rediculous prices (i.e. $55 for percs, 13# for fiji live rock $70 small yellow tangs...) it's ridiculous considering the conditions the livestock is kept in and the the quality of them... the aren't even tank raised!!!
:mad2:

[greenman]

The way I see it is LFS are in the business to make money. Now if that means ripping off a customer with some over priced or useless peace of equipment then do it. The customer should pick up some books or do some research before they buy anything so its there own fault. When you go buy a car do you just walk in and say “Hey I need a car� then when a salesmen walks up to you and says ok I have this car for you do you buy it?
I would hope not! Most ppl go out and looking, get an idea what they want and what it cost and then go to the dealer.

So if you one of those ppl that just walks up then A you have money to waste or B your not to smart.


As for live stock I tend to think the LFS should be ethical. We all know you deal with a lot more species then any single hobbyist does. SO if your pushing a lot of fish you know your clients cant keep then you’re a POS…..

We all know when someone goes in to spend money that no matter what you have they are going to spend money. So why not keep what you know your clients can handle Not stuff that requires expert skill to keep and equ to match…. I mean come on LFS folks we all know you can order just about anything…


It’s a mix of jack Arse LFS and hobbyist both are at fault both should take more pride in what they do.

[Soma]

Greenman,
the problem is that there aren't as many on-line pet stores that will deliver to Canada so what I'm saying is that the LFS is taking advantage of hobbyists in NY there are probably 20 or more LFS where as in my small city there are only 2 that sell SW supplies and livestock. I've done my research and the fact is I'm buying at ridiculous mark-ups for stuff in worse condition.

[leykis1o1]

same story here..im sick of lfs

[greenman]

Well one of these days im going public and opening up my own lfs.... send me a msg and ill get you better prices :)

[Soma]

greenman,
it's nice to say that but the canadian dollar is only worth 71cents US.

[Soma]

I do have to say though that if you go publicmeet the competition's quality, surpass their ethics and offer lower prices but you'll have way more sales. the difference of a $20 profit and selling one product or selling 3 products at a $10 profit take your pick.

[Soma]

leykis1o1,
but what can you do about it if you don't want to order on-line?

[saltchuck]

Soma,

Maybe your fish store has to purchase the product they sell at a higher price and have fewer places to purchase product in Canada, like others have stated. How about shipping? It may also cost more to get the product to your small city.

It's a free market and a LFS can charge what they feel to pay some bills and maybe have a little extra at the end of the day. Don't like it, don't shop there.

[LVMAS]

Hello everyone.
I saw these posts and thought to myself, it may help in the long run, for the collective "you" to start or join an aquarium club / society in your respective areas. Get people with like minds, trade frags, fish, parts, and most importantly knowledge. You may get 10 answers to a question and 8 of them correct answers- versus one or two from your LFS. You can weigh it based on the quality of the members tank. Perhaps call different LFS and compare answers before you leave the house... You can also go to the MASNA.ORG website. they have info on how to start a club. Im not trying to kick a dead horse or make anybody mad...


Just a thought-

[Soma]

saltchuck,
I have found places on the internet though that are fairly cheap and sometimes with little shipping. also my city isn't that small at least 150,000. but there aren't many people into saltwater.

[fluffy]

Hello!! where i work if im not sure i look it up in books!!! I think every LFS should do this or at least try.

[ofblong]

I have one local lfs that i go to that is a very good place to go to. They are willing to help you figure out if you have the right conditions to keep something. The Reef shop is what im talking about and I only live about 15 minutes from it. However they dont have a big selection of fish so i only go to them for essentials like live phyto and for corals. I am tempted to get one of the clams they have 2. are there corals are aquacultured and from what I have seen there prices are pretty close to online retailers. For fish, however, I drive 45 minutes to a lfs because it is the closest one that does not have ich covered fish, fish in tanks that were not cycled and now have algae covering the glass, freshwater aquarium rocks, fake plants, etc etc. Like a few of the lfs owners stated the lfs i go to try to keep customers. they are always willing to listen answer any ?'s and tell you it wont work. Besides that fact they also like to talk about things. I try to talk to the lfs guys and see whats going on =].

[VolitanLioness]

I went to a new LFS in Michigan last Thursday, that would of sold me anything as long as they could make a buck. I was purchasing 3 Seahorses from them, and I called three times before even going there. The tanks are set up side by side oblong. I looked in at the seahorses and they looked just fine. But I didn't look at them in the bag. (my fault)
I brought them home and #1 had the nose 1/2 bitten off, #2 was having seizures & #3 started having seizures the following day. I found out they had Seahorses in with predator fish. But they claim predator fish wont harm them!
It's not about the money, It's the point that they didn't care!!!!
I go to 4 diff. LFS around here and not 1 problem, they are not all bad it's the ones like the above that give them a bad name.

[spydergst98]

I Agree with this statement:

"The way I see it is LFS are in the business to make money. Now if that means ripping off a customer with some over priced or useless peace of equipment then do it. The customer should pick up some books or do some research before they buy anything so its there own fault. When you go buy a car do you just walk in and say “Hey I need a car� then when a salesmen walks up to you and says ok I have this car for you do you buy it?
I would hope not! Most ppl go out and looking, get an idea what they want and what it cost and then go to the dealer.

So if you one of those ppl that just walks up then A you have money to waste or B your not to smart. "

If I had my own LFS - I would do the same - There's suckers out there everywhere.

Later,

[flameangeljs]

The way I see it is LFS are in the business to make money. Now if that means ripping off a customer with some over priced or useless peace of equipment then do it.
This is a terrible attitude, in my opinion !!!!
Just because one is in business, they still should treat people decently. Ripping off people to make a buck is NOT ethical.
Much better to be honest, not stock that useless piece of equipment in the first place, help that person understand what they do actually need to be successful and be able to be proud of yourself at the end of the day.
Maybe not make a profit for the day, but pride is worth more than money ANY day !!!!

[spydergst98]

"but pride is worth more than money ANY day !!!!"

Tell that to the bill collectors when they want their money. I don't think most LFS do this for a hobby - that's what we do. Their in it for the $$$.

Granted what they do is wrong - so are all Used Cars Sale person wrong too by trying to make that extra buck off you because you didn't spend the time to research your investment/purchase first?

Later,

P.S. I buy eveything Online - wonder why?

[nimrodfiftyfour]

To start out I have purchased online, and I will never do it again. Half the fun is seeing a fish/coral you have to have and debating if you can afford it or not, and then buying it even though you can't.:lol:
Anyway. There are only a few local shops I go to. I have boycotted, and encourage others to do likewise with many for the following reasons

1. Uneducated employees that will give you advice even if they aren't sure (usually turning out wrong)
2. Poor animal conditions
3. Selling species they should not (nurse shark, wobegong, cleaner wrasse, ritteri anemone, etc.)

I think that it more comes down to which stores will be willing to say "I don't know but I'll find out" rather than make up an answer that may or may not be true. I applaud LFS owners that do it right. I will also say, as a Petco employee, that pet stores put up with a LOT.
I had a customer come in asking about food for her clownfish, hawkfish, royal gramma, and firefish. I recommended marine quisine and spectrum marine pellets as well as the occasional feeding of spirinula flake for the clown. Of course she bought the frozen and left.
Two weeks later, while I was helping someone else, she came over and began screeming at me. She said she had gone to a LFS that I had refered her to and they said that the marine quisine was not good for what she had and also held up a prod. that I had never seen before and said that I sold it to her and she didn't need it. I was given a lecture on how she had none of the fish mentioned on the case of that food and that it was for carnivours (I'm not sure she knew what that meant). She demanded an exchange, for brine shrimp.
Upon talking with the LFS she had gone to I found out that she had purcahsed a tang from them later that day and they told her that the marine quisine would not be adequate for it, she would need an omnivorous food. And I got in trouble for this incident. Try dealing with BS like that and then talk...

[drtherc]

Nimrod, I agree with much that you're saying here regarding customers. Part of our job as reefers, or aquarists, is to have some knowlege of what we're buying. This leads to asking the right questions when you go in to the LFS.

I had to write because I saw you worked at Petco. IMNSHO, at least in Northern California, the people that work in Petco have very little training in fish, more specifically marine fish. Most of the time the aquariums are dirty, the fish don't appear healthy/happy, and I just won't shop there. Of course, now I know not to by Seaweed Selects when I can get nori, make my own food for my tanks, and buy my chemicals online in bulk, so I don't have a need to visit Petco anymore. I just feel sorry for the majority of places where Petco is all they have, plus a few reef aquarium places to buy corals. I'm lucky we have an abundance of knowlegable LFS so that I don't have to go to Petco. When I first started my reef, I was looking for bulk sand and live sand, and nobody in the Petco knew what I was talking about (regarding live sand). Fortunately, someone knew about a LFS that would meet my needs. That's just my rant. As I said, I don't envy the customer nightmares you might deal with, but in my opinion, the service nightmares at Petco are at least equal.

[DgenR8]

I'm not a big fan of Petco in general, but there are good Petco stores out there. You have to understand the law of supply and demand. If there are only a very few people maintaining marine systems in a given area, it's just poor business sense for ANY pet store to stock a huge variety of marine equipment, and downright foolish for them to stock a wide variety of maine livestock. We all know these animals are delicate, and won't live long term in a Petco type set up. If noone is buying it, and the few that do keep marine systems are doing all their shopping on the 'Net, why should the store stock it?
This is why I have said many times, that if you find a good LFS, SUPPORT that store! I know, it costs you an extra $6.00 for a bucket of salt from a LFS over buying on the 'Net, but will that Internet vendor be there when you NEED something NOW?
My LFS has stayed open late waiting for me, and even opened on a day he's normally closed because I called him! Yes, I have his Cell phone number, and I know I can count on him for more than a slightly overpriced clownfish, and I can count on him when it really counts.
Think about that a little before you trash a LFS for having a weak selection, and think about how much more they'd carry if you bought some of your supplies there now and then.

[cwschoon]

If you have a good LFS, support the store. You can't put a price on good advice and excellent service and should not bitc# about a few cents or dollars. A good store incurs way mor expense that a net operation.

[porky]

Ahhh key word "If". I agree if you have a good LFS support them. If they are a crappy, over priced, sh*t hole then shopping on the net is an excellent alternative!

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Let me tell you that I completely agree. I hate Petco, and would never shop there if I didn't work there, and even still rarely do. My own opinion is that Petco should not carry marine fish. But it was the only place hiring.:rolleyes: I figure its better if there is someone there who knows what hes talking about than not, cause a lot of people who shop there, just don't know any better. We're the closest thing to a marine fish Wal-Mart. I bet Flameangels had the experience of someone setting up a tank w/ petco and losing everything and wanting him to fix it. I know I have.:D

P.S. I've been through the fish training at petco and it is seriously out of date. I ended up teaching everyone in that session and constantly correcting the video.

[spydergst98]

I buy live stock from LFS - I like to see the fish before purchasing it - it's usually only a few $$ more.

What I don't buy from LFS is all the equiptment needed to run my FOWLR tank. (Power heads, Skimmer, Wet/Dry, Heater, Lights, Salt, LR, ect....)

Have you seen the prices most LFS charge for these stuff - It's not 5 or 10%, it more like 50-75% compared to Online.

Does it really matter if that Aqua Clear 802 Powerhead that you bought at a LFS for $54.99 is any better then the $22.99 that it cost online.

If you think so then do this - buy the PH online and then go to petsmart or petco and buy the same PH - switch the two and return the PH back to the LFS - BUt why bother - their the same thing. (Now don't get me wrong - I would never do that myself - why bother?)

Later,

[nic-bass]

i have one lfs like that around here...
they tell every customer that sw fish keeping is ALOT easier than it sounds, and u can just jump right into it. this place is waaaaay over priced too, its also the kind of place that has a "Get your NEMO and SPONGEBOB here!" sign on the bill board.

on the other side of town, is a great lfs store, Bob's Tropicals, where bob likes to talk with each customer individually and tell the proper care of fish, and that u need to do your research, and has extremely reasonable prices.
i love that place

[Lionfish01]

My lfs that I go to has great prices, great care for fish, and will educate you if you need it.
I disagree with the "lfs are just money hungry ppl". This guy has sold me a used filter that was $30 for $20 and he sold me some salt that was $15 for $10. He knows that if he does some favors he will most likely get business from those ppl again.
Now my local Petco is another story. (not dissen those petco workers) They have OUTRAGIOUS prices and thier fish die in about two days (in my experience when I was breeding guppies).
I also have another fairly good pet store that has reasonable prices but overstocks their tanks a little. They have a sale going on that is $20.00 for any coral, anenome, or sponge in this reef aquarium.
So not all pet stores are money hungry ppl.

[blackness]

I work at a local sore in south jersey. We tell people not to buy fish all the time. Most people don't really understand that you can't keep a queen angel in a 55 gallon tank. It is your responsiblity as a consumer to make local place like that nonexsistant. the most important people in this industry are the consumers. We (the consumers) dictate everything. If no one buys it the won't sell it again.

[JohnM99]

I don't mind paying a little more to support the LFS if the people in it are reasonable - but it is very difficult when they tell you things dogmatically that you see on the boards here as clearly wrong. And when the markup is too high, I just have to go to the net.

A nice LFS wanted $8.95 for a blue leg hermit. Come on. So, it was worth have a box of custodians sent in by air. If they took a more reasonable markup - no problem. But that is insulting.

[PygmyAngel]

I agree that it make sense to support a good, reliable, and honest LFS as well. But it depends on the LFS. The closest one to my home charges $40 for the refill cartridge for the Tap Water Purifier! They also charge $70 for the Tap Water Purifier itself.
I can get the cartridge for $17.00 and the whole thing itself for $30 online! That same LFS also charges $55 for a polyfilter, and $100 for the wavemaker strip! If you don't believe me, I'll give u the # and u can call them yourself! They are so overpriced the only thing I can afford in there is a bag of live brine shrimp for $1.25.

So I go across town to the MUCH MORE reasonable, healthier, and reliable LFSs, especially when I want to buy livestock. I very much like to see my livestock when I am buying it. ...But I do buy most of my dry goods/supplies online. There's just no comparison.

[flameangeljs]

just a note here-- the prices you people are quoting as to your LFS's are amazing (shocking might be a better word )--$8.95 for a blue leg hermit ???
Cripes, I feel guilty with $1.99 for one, but I cant help the shipping/handling/box fees etc, that I have to pay and recoup somehow !!!
Please understand that you all may buy from the internet-but, you MUST add in your cost for those things also !!
Too many people quote internet prices as the animal cost, but dont include the extras that you have to pay, the same as I do, to get that animal to you.
And don/t forget that we have to feed and house that animal until someone buys it also !!!!!! Might be one week or one year !!!!

[JohnM99]

You make excellent points. There is the cost of the shipping, and for Canada, taxes and sometimes customs duties and brokerage fees.

And I have a great deal of sympathy for the difficulty of a retailer in a semi-small or small market - I really do not mind paying more to sustain such a business.

But there is a limit to my good will. I hope internet trading doesn't kill the LFS, but they have to be careful not to price at ridiculous levels.

[DgenR8]

I stopped at a LFS today that I have not been to since I was buying fresh water stuff. $30.00 for a cleaner shrimp, $50 for a blood shrimp! :eek1:
Meanwhile, they had a bunch of Manderins for $15.00 each :rolleyes:
I left without buying anything. That's not the LFS I want to support. Give me the shrimp for $10 or $12, and charge high for the Manderin, then I would have some respect for them. I still say that it's necesary to support a good LFS. One day, you will be in a bind for something, and not have time to wait for shipping.

[randy 12]

I just want to say that my father owned a pet store in our area for 30 years. He was one of the first stores in our area. He owned 4 stores during most of that time. He closed 10 years ago because a large national pet retailer moved in down the street. One example, they were able to sell Science Diet dog food for less than my father paid wholesale. Some consumers seem to forget or maybe never knew that these large retailers like Petco, PetSmart, etc. get massive discounts because of the amount of product they purchase. They don't just purchase for their one store like the "little guy" does, they purchase for their hundreds of stores.

When this national chain store went in, his "loyal" customers would come in, find out exactly what they needed for this fish or that or this hamster or that puppy. He would often spend 30 min, 1 hr, or more with these customers explaining how to take care of their pet. The customer would say thanks and walk off. Dad would say, don't you want anything? The customer actually would have the nerve to say, PetSmart has it cheaper. Later when the fish or hamster died, they would bring it (dead) to my dad and ask for his advice, once again.

Yes, prices are higher with the smaller LFS but we just don't get the discounts the big guys get.

One of our local chain stores sells Penguin 330's for 49.99. I looked in my current price book and I pay $43.99. Not much of a profit for me. So these online stores sometimes sell these for $23.99...nearly half what I pay wholesale. Go figure.

[flameangeljs]

Randy, I hear you loud and clear. I see this all the time too.
Yesterday, I spent OVER two hours with a "customer" doing water tests for him, explaining that he needed more loud rock for the fish he was trying to keep- among other things, and of course, guess where he went to buy it ??? Petco !!!!!!! Yes, the water tests were free also !!! And this is common !!!!
In the last week I have changed over 180 gallons of water on my tanks--wonder if the hobbyists realize what that costs, but to be a decent LFS, we do that. Yes, I see it on these forums a lot-"go have the LFS do your water tests for you free and then go buy everything off the internet". We dont get our testing supplies free either !!!!!
And yes, the internet is killing us small LFS's !!! We cant charge for our knowledge/time and we can't beat the internet prices either !!!

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by flameangeljs
We dont get our testing supplies free either !!!!!
And yes, the internet is killing us small LFS's !!! We cant charge for our knowledge/time and we can't beat the internet prices either !!!
The point I keep trying to make is that the Internet suppliers, and even your local Petco is NOT going to be there for you (not YOU, but the average hobbyist) when you are in a pinch, and need something NOW. For this reason, I support my favorite LFS. I pay more for stuff from him, and I know full well why. But, when I need something, NOW, he will stay late, or even open the store on his day off for me. THAT'S service, and THAT'S worth spending a few extra dollars for a bucket of salt, or a container of carbon. My wife could have bought me the Lifereef skimmer she got me for Christmas direct from Lifereef, cheaper, but she didn't know the first thing about how to find Lifereef. My buddy @ the LFS did, and to top that, he knew that I wanted a Lifereef.
There is a personal touch that you can't get from Petco, or Petland, that Fishy Inc. passes around willingly.
Once again, everyone should find a good LFS, one that will do these extra things for their customers, and supprt them, before they're all gone.

[prop-frags]

Man, this is a long thread. I didn't quite read every word, but it sure is a rich discussion. Many great points made on several fronts. Many of the hobbyists I am sure shop online because of poorly operated LFS, and the price differences. It is sad that folks have the audacity to repeatedly take advantage of the expertise of a good LFS and then turn away without buying anything, only to then use that expert advice and purchase online. But that is the choice that the ingrateful customer is free to make. Personally I would feel terrible doing that. However, much like the free market decides which businesses succeed and which fail, the ethical and responsible LFS owner should turn a cold shoulder to that ingrate when they coming running in and their tank is melting down with Brookynella... I think turnabout is fair game.

[flameangeljs]

mclva123,
Thank you for your comments above, but a good LFS does not turn their back when someone has a problem and their animals need help. Personally, I simply could not do that-it would not be fair to the animals at all. Even if the person themselves are a pain in the ---, it is still our responsibility to do the best we can for Everyone. And I do believe that a lot of LFS"s feel the same way also.

[rallendorph]

flameangeljs -

Is "The Salt Box" your shop ? If not, would you let me know what is ?

If this viloates an RC rule, pleae PM me with the info.

Thanks,
Rob A. :beer:

[flameangeljs]

Rob,
I dont know if it is a violation or not, but sent you a pm

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by flameangeljs
mclva123,
Thank you for your comments above, but a good LFS does not turn their back when someone has a problem and their animals need help.

That, is the problem faced by the good LFS. It's a balancing act, to do right by their customers, they unfortunately have to do right by people that don't believe one good turn deserves another.
If you are lucky enough to have access to a good LFS, don't stab them in the back to save 3 or 4 dollars.

[rspar]

I don't own a lfs but I'm self employed and if I went around giving people what they want even though I knew it to be wrong I'd make a lot of money for a short time and then I'd be out of business. If your in business to stay your in business to be honest with your customers and they'll learn to trust you (if you know what your talking about). After getting bum advice several times in the beginning from my lfs I now have zero faith in the quality of they're livestock. I still buy the occasional item there since they're real close but I would have been a regular had they steered me right

[spydergst98]

Well that's just it. If we as customer take the time to do research before getting into this hobby - we wouldn't have to worry about Money Grubbing LFS.

Like I said in the beginning - when you go to a car dealer to buy your $85,000 Lexus or $6,000.00 Kia - you probably spent a good deal of time researching first. Why - don't you trust the Car Salesman....Sounds like a silly question?

You laugh now but your doing the same thing when you go to a LFS without researching first - your trusting the LFS salesman.

I say if your that stupid then you deserve to be conned - sorry but that's life.

I just don't agree on LFS selling you live stock when they know it will die or have a good chance with your setup.

Charging you 3x more for equiptment - hey if your too stupid to shop around or too lazy then that's your fault.

Think about it - all the people on this Forum apparently took the time to do some research and joined this forum.

Isn't this a great place to get ideas and knowledge though some are still set in their old ways.

Hint - I still use Florida Crush Coral instead of a DSB and have a Wet/Dry System with BioBalls. But because if this forum - I no longer use any filter media for my Wet/Dry and Magnum. Started using LR in my FOWLR setup.

Later,

[rspar]

Charging 3x for something eh...thats business give incredibley crappy advice because they don't know or don't care thats a different story.

You can do all the research and still make a bad decision -- that's life.

[Shoestring Reefer]

I've gotta say that I'm very happy with my LFS. They told me which corals I didn't have enough light for, said a mandarine would starve if not given the correct diet, and many other good pieces of advice. I can't support them as much as I can, but I made sure I get clean-up critters, live sand, invert food, ect. from them.

I can't buy my jaw fish from them because they say they ship poorly, so I'll try them on line. They also recommended against their blue starfish because they seemed to die quickly. I haven't seen any blue star fish for quite a while there. And, they try to sell equipment, but say that canister filters/bio balls are not the way to go, and told one customer that treating over-stocking of a fresh water tank with an ammonia-absorbing product was NOT correct.

They have a few not-great looking fish, but most look well and well fed.

Again, I'm happy wiyh my LFS.

[flameangeljs]

I can't buy my jaw fish from them because they say they ship poorly, so I'll try them on line. They also recommended against their blue starfish because they seemed to die quickly.

I agree with your lfs on this--But- do not understand why you think they would ship better for YOU than they do for your LFS ????
(also, jawfish do have a problem with the high lighting in reef tanks-they can go blind from it -per John Tullocks research )..

There are many fish and animals I do not stock, because they do not ship well or simply because their mortality rate is too high.
If a good LFS has problems with certain animals-- then IMO, only the very experienced hobbyists should try to keep them ..

[Shoestring Reefer]

flameangeljs,

Thanks for the reply-it's good to see a LFS giving good advice/input in a thread about how LFSs should give good advice/input.

I don't think they will ship better for me, I was only pointing out that I think my LFS generally gives sound advice and is concerned about the animals they sell.

I also have hade some second thoughts about the jawfish lately-the potential for blindness is something I hadn't heard about, and I've done quite a bit of research. I have 440 watts of VHO, so I guess that may be a problem. I'm also concerned with them being killed in cave-ins, being upset by more active tankmates, and to being able to treat them out of the main tank if they get sick because they hide in their burrows. I can obviously quarenteen them (and any new livestock) before they go in the display tank, and keep peaceful tank mates with them, and I think my substrait is OK and I have lots of rubble of various sizes, but I'm going to have to have to get more input/advise about lighting and shipping. It may be possible to get them locally, but they would have had to be shipped, as well, because I haven't found a source for tank-raised jaw-fish -- at least the yellow heads, I've read that someone (maby in the Detroit area) is raising tank-bread blue-spotted jaw fish. I'm not going to get any fish until after christmas, because I'll be out of state, so in early december I'm going to really find out what my options are and if the jaw fish will be a go/no go.

[Shoestring Reefer]

flameangeljs,
I couldn't find any info (here on on the web) about jawfish going blind. I did a search with the words Tullock, jawfish, and blind; and then with the words jawfish and blind. Do you have a link or book recommendation?

[flameangeljs]

Check out "the Reef Tank Owners Manual", by John Tullock. He found that out about the jawfish back many years ago when he had the store. (about 13 years ago, if I remember rightly )

[brahm]

I think any Store that makes profit off of live creatures has an ethical duty to make sure that whomever is going to be the caretaker of this creature is capable of doing so or at least advize them to the point where the responisbilty is on them.

I've seen a number of examples through this thread were people refer to cars and car parts or talk about being retailers as an excuse for imporper treatment of living beings and that is sad.. I can see that type of irresponsibility from some Superstore, or some gaint chain that does specilize in a specfic market, and that's why i'd rather pay more and support a store that is going to give me sound advice, not because i'd be ****ed for wasting money if everything dies (which defitenly is a downfall) but because it's unethical treatment of the livestock which they are choosing to sell. Yea if somebody doesn't do there research on a car and buy the wrong model lexus so what they just wasted some money.. If somebody goes a LFS, and is told they can put fish in a tank and not wait to cycle that is the unethical treatment of a living creature.. Just ever so slighty diffrent then buying the wrong car.

You want to use cars for an example? Call up summit racing or any of the perfomance speed shops (ie speciality shops).. tell them your intrested in buying a supercharger, or a nitrous kit First question they are going to ask is the specs on your motor compression, piston type, all the good stuff and then they are going to tell you wether or not it's going to blow a hole in the side of your block! Now if you choose to buy it anyways then the responisiblity is on you.

It's not about "being stupid" the fact of the matter is. Just like not everybody was raised watching there old man wrench on cars, not everybody was exposed to what it takes to care of a salt water tank. I myself am still a n00b and am just finally starting to learn and looking back on my recent experience with LFS it ****es me off to think of some of the mistakes i've made on unsound contradicting advice. Not everybody relizes that there are resources out there beyond the LFS, when you do find information who do you trust? Look at flower pots for example your bring that up on any board you'll get 300 points of view. How is a n00b supposed to know which is the correct one... dun dun dun.... A responsible local fish store.

oh and the reason you don't trust a car salemen is because they are making a commision off the car. the price isn't fixed so the higher they can get you to the purchase the car the more money they make. When it comes to LFS. When the fish is sold, the price is firm fixed thus not giving the average person any reason to suspect the your LFS clerics would want to swindle you into buying a bunch of stuff that's going to die. Heck the more stuff that lives, that happier the customer, the more repeat busines. When it comes down to it.. It's profitable to be ethical.

[MCary]

I'm not a LFS owner but I have some business training so I want to share some talking points..

For a small specialty store to survive it usually requires at least a 300% markup once you figure your costs and sales volume.

Salt water aquariums really came in to there own in just the past 10 years. Many older established LFS's added them to compliment thier fresh water sales seeing the trend. Like mentioned before, a retail decision to expand what they offer. Many of there customers know more than they do. I saw this in Colo. Sprgs in the 80's where they had a big Discus craze. Every store in town started trying to sell them and knew nothing about it.

If your lucky enough to get enough business to have to hire someone to help, its hard to get a marine biologist to work for minimum wage.

I know alot of store owner's read these posts and I don't want to be contrary to them, but I wonder weather small specialty stores can survive today. The only thing that attracts today is quality and uniqueness. Both of which are covered in the fish business by internet retailers. If I owned a fish store I would expect novices and impulse buyers to be my target customers.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by MCary
Like mentioned before, a retail decision to expand what they offer. Many of there customers know more than they do.
Yup, and I've seen that in mom and pop LFSs, too.

[brahm]

The way I see it, is if your going to open up a specialty store your doing it out of a passion for the hobby i'm mean seriously how would want to be around fish all day every day.. except for somebody who loves the hobby! Bad marketing, is no excuse unethical treatment of animals, and if anybody should be doing research it should be the LFS to see what it takes to operate a business of that type since they are taking the biggest risk off us all. Oh ****, I need to pay may car bill, time to start cutting corners doesn't cut it.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Yeah, but alot of "LFS" actually sell other stuff besides fish. I use the term LFS alot, but I've only seen one fish-only store my whole life. Maby it's just a New England thing, but most brick-and mortar places where I shop sell cats, dogs, birds, rabbits, and all other animals. I doubt many of the owners have a love and appreciation for every one of those animals.

[brahm]

Ah, the Lfs in my area only sell fish and related products (inverts, coral, ect) Anything that sells more then that would be a LPS (local pet store) :)

[popsock]

It's MONEY GRABBING, not grubbing. lol you funny people.

[MCary]

"money grubbers" is an expression, not designed to be grammerically correct

[wally100]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MCary
[B]I'm not a LFS owner but I have some business training so I want to share some talking points..

For a small specialty store to survive it usually requires at least a 300% markup once you figure your costs and sales volume.


If your lucky enough to get enough business to have to hire someone to help, its hard to get a marine biologist to work for minimum wage.

For all of you comlaining about lfs go start you one up just the way you want it and run it the way you say it should be run! then come see me in a year when your dead broke and shut down the store and tell me what you think about them then...they have a hard enough time staying open when everyone wants you to be a bioligst and give free advice and them run home and order goods off the internet. ask a lfs owner what he think of you who come in with your holier than thou attitude about lfs...they think the same thing about you!!!!!!!

[rcaston]

In the Dallas area there are about a dozen (non chain) saltwater fish stores that sell reef systems and corals.

Only a couple are worth going to tho, Saltwater Paradise and Aquatic Design. Located in Irving and Plano, TX respectively.


The rest of them... I don't trust, and one that I think should be shutdown is a place called "Dallas North Aquarium" ...

Sickly livestock, bad acclimation procedures, bad advice, price gouging, lying... he'll, I've even seen them sell fish with Ich on them to a couple who didn't know better...

My fav is they like to sell 'Reef Systems 2 Go" as it were, you walk in, drop about $5,000 and they deliver a tank, the water, the liverock, the equipment, and the fish and corals, and drop it all in that very day.

... Irony is, they have the biggest, most impressive looking retail store of them all, but i woulnd't touch their livestock for all the coral in sea.

[brahm]

WALL100 - Look I don't want to start my own LFS, I don't want to deal with the responsibilty.

But If you are going to open up a FS you need understand 1. You are selling living creatures YOU are ethicly bound to there LIVES.. END OF STORY. 2. You are selling possible toxic items YOU MUST INFORM THE CONSUMER.

Why is it that so many people feel that just because you own a fish store you have no responsibilities to the lives that your are selling or to your customers, and the consumer should some how magically know everything about every product they are ever going to buy. Business is about. Selling Quality products and giving quality service. The combination comes to MAKING MONEY.

I don't understand why you feel sorry for some ******* who wants to make a quick buck swindeling people at the cost of lives stolen from the sea.

If you don't have a passion for it, you shoudn't try to open up a LFS...or work at one. Nobody in the right mind is thinking ooh i'm going to get sooo rich selling FISH.

[spydergst98]

Sorry but I have to agree with WALL100.

If your (The customer) too stupid to do any research first and go spend $5000.00 on a hobbie that you know nothing about - then too bad - quit your crying that you got ripped off.

Just like if you went and bought a Brand New BMW 5 series and then found out that you paid $5000.00 more then your neighbor that did do some research first and got the best deal for the same car - too bad so sad.

But then again - I feel for the fish that has too suffer. I'm a dog person myself and whenever I see anything happen to them - I say instead of fine the owner - you put the owner in the same situation. (Sorry just say Animal Cop and this lady left a dog outside in Detroit in the middle of Winter with no shelter or food for a week - I say put her out there for a week and see if she likes it).

I'm not saying LFS are right or wrong - guess I can't say much because I'm the guy that goes to these LFS and check out their stuff and then go home and order online for 60-75% off the LFS prices.

Later,

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by brahm

If you don't have a passion for it, you shoudn't try to open up a LFS...or work at one.
As far as working at one-If people never took a job unless they were passionate about it, not many people would be working. Working for peanuts at the LFS vs scrubbing toilets, the job at the LFS looks moghty tempting, passion or not.

Originally posted by brahm

If you don't have a passion for it, you shoudn't try to open up a LFS...or work at one. Nobody in the right mind is thinking ooh i'm going to get sooo rich selling FISH.
Apparently, people are making a profit. To look at it another way, if the "passionate" owner of a LFS is no longer the owner (death, retirement, etc) should that LFS shut down unless a "passionate" person takes over. Sometimes, a business is just a business.

Just because they are dealing with something we consider precious doesn't mean special rules should apply. I don't expect that from my waitress, cable man, or bank teller. I'm not going to take my business somewhere else looking for someone who is more dedicated. Why expect it from a LFS? Because it's what we decided is important to us?

***The rest not directed specifically at brahm***

In the big scheme of things, the cold hard truth is that we sell fish at the grocery store. They are netted by the thousands, and put in the hold of a ship packed in like sardines, where they die by suffocating on each other's slime and are crushed by the weight of those above them. They die horrible deaths I would never want for any of my loved ones. We steam lobsters and shell fish alive, and arrange cooked shrimp tales into pleasing displays.

My father in law is a lobsterman in Maine. I once ate 6 lobsters at a sitting. Just go for the claws and tails, and throw the rest away. There's plenty more where those came from.

If you want to argue for the best interest of sea creatures, getting up in arms because a fish is sold to a bad home is not seeing the forest for the trees.

I have picked a LFS because they take care of their livestock, give good advice, and seem generally concerned with their livestock's well beink. It gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. But, the fact that I'm not going to buy a mandarine and a couple of tangs for my 55-gal because it's not recommended doesn't make me mister high and mighty fish&coral lover, considering how much I love tuna fish with miracle whip on wheat bread with lettuce and a tall glass of milk. Mmmm...Tuna Sandwich. With shrimp cocktail. And slaughtered cow oops I mean beef.

If we truly wished well for our fish, we would not buy any live stock from anyone, and put them out of business by joining green peace and stopping the harvesters. Not many people are doing that. If nothing else, I'm honest with myself, at least on this. Unless you allow every creature to reproduce in your tank and raise their young so they can reproduce, you have NOT provided a complete home. That goes for captive-bred animals you buy, too. I'll continue keeping a tank, and try to give my business to good LFSs/LPSs, but I can't get on a soapbox and point fingers.

Isn't there a limit to how long a post can be?

[kadams2]

my, my, my! - "Shoestring Reefer":
I must admit, that is the most intelligent, rational, logical, and down-to-earth reply that I have ever read on this entire website! Obviously the words of an honest-to-goodness educated man for a change.
I am so sick of hearing the tired old proverbial - "my artificial environment is so much better/ethical than your artificial environment"
over and over and over and over and over and....same 'ole tune/ different voice
Funny them humans: ...will fight to the death for the rights of a fish, but give 'em a shot at demeaning/insulting/slandering thier fellow man for nothing more than a warm, fuzzy feeling inside and the false sense of devine empowerment, and its HUNTING SEASON!
Probably the same type of people who show up to "protest" the W.T.O. summits, yet cannot even pronounce the acronym : )
"Hypocracy runs rampant in a world of wanderers"....oh wait...or is it..."The one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind"
Hmmmm????:reading::wildone:

By-the-way...
My Seven Happy Tangs all say hi

[nismo400]

Originally posted by cwschoon
Lots of hobbyists take advice from the LFS then trundle off to the Wal*Mart, or worse yet, come in and inform the LFS guy that " I just bought such and such from the Wal*Mart, now tell me how to make it work".

you are soooooo right its not even funny, just substitute walmart for internet.

phone call:
"Hi i just bought a prizm (from the internet, of course) could you tell me how to set it up?"

[nismo400]

Originally posted by porky
"I would hire people who actually gave a damn that I would have to pay twice as much as the "kids" in your store, I would pay for the best salt, lights, etc I would pay more for a certified non- cyanide fish than one out of the Phillipines"
Then why don't more stores do this?
Because they would probably be out of business in a week as your competitor would eat you alive!


Of course they would because of uneducated people like you who would rather ***** about prices than get quality livestock.

[MDKyleZ]

As far as ethics go I work for a great LFS, it's a small buisness just 3 workers including the owner. All 3 of us are knowledgeable or at least willing to admit it when we do not know the answer.

We have partially solved the problem of selling something to someone that can not support it by offering a guarantee on all livestock if we are the ones doing the maintance on the tank.

The tank of course has to be set-up to our standards in order for this to be an option. However, a lot of people take advantage of our service (nearly 100 acounts). Our store is only open 12 hours a week in allow us time for all of the maintance.

Kyle

Kyle

[mingzen]

typically, i go to my LFS because not only do most in the area have good advice, but also because all the savings in fish are offset by the cost of shipping. i've supported my LFS despite occasionally discovering that they occasionally mark up items far more than retail, and in fact, one of my regular LFS stores actually steered me to this site.

so despite the occasional visit to petsmart because they have certain stock items for cheap (aw nuts, i bought reef buffer when i could've used baking soda!!), i have NEVER bought something there and asked the small business to explain to me how to use the bloody thing.

and no, i have no clue what my point is. just saw the posts and wanted to talk about my own experiences.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by mingzen
aw nuts, i bought reef buffer when i could've used baking soda
Wow, I know the feeling. I think some reef buffer IS baking soda-one brand even said it's USDA approved!

[cwschoon]

I use Seachem reef buffer and it is quite different from baking soda.

[kadams2]

I use Kent Marine Superbuffer-dKH
label says it contains carbonate, bicarbonate and borate salts.
I've never had chemistry, but there must be more beneficial ingredients in this stuff than just baking soda. Only runs about $8 so I'm not too worried about cost. Anyone else have thoughts on this stuff?
Since I don't have a calcium reactor I use Kent's Turbo Calcium to get it upto 450ppm, anyone else have better luck with another product?

[mingzen]

shoestring reefer:

USDA approved? ever read fast food nation? i discovered the USDA doesn't do much, especially if you're eating a hamburger.

i think i'll try the baking soda. i've got calcium supplements up the wazoo.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Now that I'm home, I can read the labels:

SEA-LAB No. 14pH :
"Restores Natural Buffers"
"No washing soda or Lye"
"Warning: Other products contain sodium carbonate..."
"The ingrediants of Formula 14 are so pure and safe they are approved by the FDA as food additives and are commonly used in antacid remidies for human consumption."


Arm and Hammer Pure Baking Soda:
100% Sodium Bicarbonate
Uses: relieves heartburn, acid indigestion, sour stomach, upset stomach due to these symptoms

So, I guess they say FDA, not USDA-not that I know the difference. SEA-LAB 14 may use some other antacid, though. Tums uses Calcium Carbonate, but SEA-LAB 14 can't be that, because it doesn't raise Calcium levels (as far as I know). The Tums commercial claims Rolaids uses Aluminum instead of Calcium, so (if that's trus) it can't be that, either. I can't think of anything else used as an antacid that would be reef-safe, and boost alk (and pH) without raising Calcium.

Hey-wait a minute...if this stuff raises my tank's pH, HOW CAN IT CURE ACID INDIGESTION? Stupid Chemistry...:mad:

[kadams2]

I remember something in Geology class that mentioned a certain mineral (rocks basically) that is used in its powdered form as an antacid. I remember them mentioning that this stuff is used by the "tons" in the farming industry to feed to cows. Evidentily a cow's stomach is not designed to digest grain and other things that are fed to them to fatten them up...so....this mineral is fed to them to help settle their stomach and reduce indigestion.
As a side note, I was also told that "gasses" from cows and other livestock are far more damaging to the ozone layer than car emissions. Sound familiar to any of you geologists/environmental specialists? That class was a couple of years ago...I've displaced those particular brain cells along time ago, so I may be wrong.

Now wait....what was the topic?

[jpfelix]

if you don't like your lfs, then don't go there! leave them alone and don't recommend them to friends.
if you do like them, support them! don't spend an hour getting our advice then go online and order the same thing we have at the store.
if you do this, please don't ask us to clean up someone else's mess. if you have a problem with what you ordered that company should take care of you. if your critter is dying--ask them how to nurse it back! most of the cheaper stores won't have the answers--to me the answers are worth the extra purchase price.

[jpfelix]

btw--ethics fly right out the window when corporate bonuses are at stake!

[mingzen]

shoestring reefer:

stomach acid has a low PH (about 4 i think), and baking soda has a high PH, so it makes sense that it reduces acid indigestion by increasing your PH! of course, i think it also releases hydrogen gas, so you might go down like the hindenberg if you were covered in aluminum paint . . .

i don't see why baking soda couldn't increase calcium levels. i mean, isn't it sodium bicarbonate, NaCa2? or is my hs chemistry even rustier?

[Shoestring Reefer]

Holy cow, I had my pH scale backwards. Do'h!

[wwxc]

Just an idea. Would it be possible for a group of LFS in a certain area to band together and place bulk orders from a company to get the kind of discounts that petco enjoys?

As much as you are all in competition, I think that this would be something that would benefit all of those involved.

I've never run a retail store front, but from the many business school classes I've taken I've learned that there isn't that much you can do about basic customer psychology. Customers do what they do and think how they think, and its not your job to complain about it, its your job to figure out new ways to take advatage of the market.

Take Best Buy and Circuit City as an example. For years circuit city was known as the place (among chains) to go for electronic advice. Problem was, once Best Buy moved in, people learned they could go to CC for advice, then walk across the street and go to big ol' Best Buy and get the tv for 40 bucks less.

So circuit city did some reorganizing of their channels, got their prices down, and started doing some marketing. "Price Match Plus" has been very successful and is starting to show that CC might be a friendlier and cost effective alternative to the warehouse that is Best Buy.

Couple of ideas i'm thowing out:
1) Check out the possibility of the group buy among LFS.

2) Do some advertising (tv, print, etc.) stressing the benefits of shopping at your place. Knowledge, see the animal first, healthier, non-cyanide, friendly, etc. Hell, say that Petco sucks and why you're better. Its not libel if its true.

3) Run a great looking shop. The best ones i've been in are carpeted, have good lighting, couches to sit, etc. Get rid of the dank, concrete floored, poorly lit stereotype that is the lfs. Customers always bring in kids, friends, spouses, etc. that may not be into the whole fish thing. Make them comfortable as well.

4) Stay price competitive. Keep your margins down on dry goods and keep em higher on livestock. Livestock is where you beat the big stores silly. Offer stuff they don't carry.

5) Frag and propogate. This stuff should be like a money tree for you. Get a good system going and you can have a replenishing supply of virtually free coral.

6) Consider opening an online store. Increase your customer base without drastically increasing your overhead.

7) Make your own food (Eric's famous recipe), grow your own cultures, etc. Do it cheap, and mark it up. Advertise it as the best.

8) Have socially adept employees. I've been freaked out more than once at an lfs by a "weirdo" employee. Imagine how a novice would feel.

9) Keep giving good advice, people will come back. Once their Petco fish die, they'll come back to you for some real ones. Don't get mad at a customer, even if they're just using you for advice. An angry customer will tell five times as many people not to go to your place as a happy customer would recommend you.

10) Consider running a tank service business to go along with the store. Anything you sell to these customers comes from you. Rich people are even better, as they often don't know enough about fish tanks to be price conscious. They just want something that looks good in their dining room. Bigger customer base, bigger bulk discounts from suppliers, etc.

11) Keep the tanks clean and alive. Nothing turns an experienced hobbyist off faster than dying livestock, bleached corals, etc. I do a quick 180 in a new store if I see that. Usually they're the ones that would be buying that $70 acro as well. Don't lose em.


Alright, I'm done babbling. Use my advice, don't, whatever. You're probably more than aware of all this stuff, but I just felt like throwing out some thoughts.

-mike

[Freed]

Originally posted by wwxc
Just an idea. Would it be possible for a group of LFS in a certain area to band together and place bulk orders from a company to get the kind of discounts that petco enjoys?

As much as you are all in competition, I think that this would be something that would benefit all of those involved.

I've never run a retail store front, but from the many business school classes I've taken I've learned that there isn't that much you can do about basic customer psychology. Customers do what they do and think how they think, and its not your job to complain about it, its your job to figure out new ways to take advatage of the market.

Take Best Buy and Circuit City as an example. For years circuit city was known as the place (among chains) to go for electronic advice. Problem was, once Best Buy moved in, people learned they could go to CC for advice, then walk across the street and go to big ol' Best Buy and get the tv for 40 bucks less.

So circuit city did some reorganizing of their channels, got their prices down, and started doing some marketing. "Price Match Plus" has been very successful and is starting to show that CC might be a friendlier and cost effective alternative to the warehouse that is Best Buy.

Couple of ideas i'm thowing out:
1) Check out the possibility of the group buy among LFS.

2) Do some advertising (tv, print, etc.) stressing the benefits of shopping at your place. Knowledge, see the animal first, healthier, non-cyanide, friendly, etc. Hell, say that Petco sucks and why you're better. Its not libel if its true.

3) Run a great looking shop. The best ones i've been in are carpeted, have good lighting, couches to sit, etc. Get rid of the dank, concrete floored, poorly lit stereotype that is the lfs. Customers always bring in kids, friends, spouses, etc. that may not be into the whole fish thing. Make them comfortable as well.

4) Stay price competitive. Keep your margins down on dry goods and keep em higher on livestock. Livestock is where you beat the big stores silly. Offer stuff they don't carry.

5) Frag and propogate. This stuff should be like a money tree for you. Get a good system going and you can have a replenishing supply of virtually free coral.

6) Consider opening an online store. Increase your customer base without drastically increasing your overhead.

7) Make your own food (Eric's famous recipe), grow your own cultures, etc. Do it cheap, and mark it up. Advertise it as the best.

8) Have socially adept employees. I've been freaked out more than once at an lfs by a "weirdo" employee. Imagine how a novice would feel.

9) Keep giving good advice, people will come back. Once their Petco fish die, they'll come back to you for some real ones. Don't get mad at a customer, even if they're just using you for advice. An angry customer will tell five times as many people not to go to your place as a happy customer would recommend you.

10) Consider running a tank service business to go along with the store. Anything you sell to these customers comes from you. Rich people are even better, as they often don't know enough about fish tanks to be price conscious. They just want something that looks good in their dining room. Bigger customer base, bigger bulk discounts from suppliers, etc.

11) Keep the tanks clean and alive. Nothing turns an experienced hobbyist off faster than dying livestock, bleached corals, etc. I do a quick 180 in a new store if I see that. Usually they're the ones that would be buying that $70 acro as well. Don't lose em.


Alright, I'm done babbling. Use my advice, don't, whatever. You're probably more than aware of all this stuff, but I just felt like throwing out some thoughts.

-mike


I hope they read and listen. Maybe they will stop complaining about the people that are looking out for their hard earned $$ and buying elsewhere to save a $$. Freed

[carribeanlovers]

My husband and I are currently in the early stages of planning for running a family owned and operated LFS. The reason: Not happy with our LFS. Plus, we want to sell livestock that can not be purchased anywhere else. Our mission is to have personalized attention for the customers that you usually can't find at a LFS, especially one that is large corporation. Also, we will be very forward about information for customers. One of our motto's is: If we don't know we'll find out - we won't guess or tell them what they want to hear just to make a sale. My view on this is you might make a sale now but you probably won't make future sales if the customer was screwed.

[cwschoon]

Stores "banding together" is fraught with difficulty...there are many behind the scene issues.
Carribean....do yourself a favor. Go and "secret shop" a number of stores in your area or even way out of your area. Phone some mfgs in the business and ask them to point out a few good stores...you may not want to tell them why or you may ask for a few stores way out of the area that you will not compete with. Also, research some of the pet wholesalers that you will be buying from, make an appointment and go and see them. They will be a great help and have a direct interest in your success. You will also be able to start neg. ongoing discounts. After you do this, talk to the Tetras,Seachems,penn plaxes,marinelands, ect and see how they can help you. They all have new store programs, etc.

[ichthyman]

No flames intended, just honest discourse.

Just an idea. Would it be possible for a group of LFS in a certain area to band together and place bulk orders from a company to get the kind of discounts that petco enjoys?

Most of the major manufacturers have "rules" against selling directly to LFS/retailers even if they are organized into a group. If there is a distributor that covers your area the manufacturer directs you to make your purchases from that wholesaler. Unless the distributor is a complete weenie and not making his annual sales agreement, there is no incentive for the manufacturer to undercut, backstab, his distributor.

Now with that being said, the major manufacturers have a different set of "rules" when it comes to chain or larger internet companies. Individual companies like Pet-co and PetsMart are allowed to purchase directly even though they are retail oriented. They also receive the lowest possible pricing from the manufacturer. Often times this pricing is lower than what local distributors receive. Then to make matters worse for LFSs, the manufacturers sit-back and allow the chain and internet stores to "whore" the products out at or below suggested wholesale list.

There is definitely a double standard within this industry and, IMO, most manufacturers do not intend for it to change. I would love to be able to offer products for the same price as what is found on the internet or chain stores but I can not. Maybe hobbyist should stop complaining about the prices at LFSs but instead petitioning manufactures to institute a pricing/distribution structure that will allow ALL vendors of their products to be competitive AND make money.


I hope they read and listen. Maybe they will stop complaining about the people that are looking out for their hard earned $$ and buying elsewhere to save a $$. Freed

And I hope the next time your in a LFS you might consider my words and show some compassion for their situation. Most good LFS owners are operating at an extreme disadvantage and make very little money, yet they still persevere. Please remenber, they are working just as hard for their money as you.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by ichthyman
No flames intended, just honest discourse.

I hope not either, I appreciate everyone, esp. LFS folks, jumping in on this. Hopefully we can ALL learn.

I for one, have taken advantage of LFS water tests ... of the LFS I support. [normally I water tested near/before when I was buying livestock from them ... fair is fair after all. Run my water, and if it tests ok, then I can buy your livestock].

Bought my Live Rock from them, regularly buy frags they stock, have bought stuff I could buy cheaper online ... to support them. In fact, when discussing `online' with them, they now generally offer a discount to me on dry goods ... as they're aware that I'll support them for what they stock. But if wildly overcharged ... I'm going online.

I also explained why I would choose other than their Prizm/Berlin skimmers for my reef tank ... and while they might think it's great - I am aware that they are NOT the best products out there.

That is a problem, IMO. Please LFS, don't tell me a Prizm skimmer is awesome and will easily do the trick - when you give good advice on other things. That in my experience has been the problem, good livestock advice combined with some good and some bad equipment advice. Eventually I don't know what to believe, and you undermined your credibility there.

A good LFS' advice is worthy ... gotta do my homework and research myself too ... but I'm sad for people who use that advice and then shop `price' completely. Cheap, big-box `Pet Inc.' I avoid, maybe cheap prices - but with the dying corals and fish in-store ... IMO seems about the lowest rung of collection/etc. Thanks, but I'm aiming to avoid cyanide capture, irresponsible harvest.

As for `good LFS' ... at our local club meetings, many recommend a place 3 hours away ... as it is great. Carries only high quality dry goods [Tunze, Cyclops-Eeze, DT's ... lots of things he doesn't carry - tells you to buy them online]. As he'd have to overcharge just to carry - why take up space better used in livestock? Frags a lot of corals, guarantees a lot of things, holds most corals he orders in for a month or so - so that he can be sure it is healthy when it goes out. Reputation and word of mouth are doing quite a good thing for him ... as you know that `you' killed something that came from him, unlike a LFS that has something barely holding on.

Most of the major manufacturers have "rules" against selling directly to LFS/retailers even if they are organized into a group. If there is a distributor that covers your area the manufacturer directs you to make your purchases from that wholesaler. Unless the distributor is a complete weenie and not making his annual sales agreement, there is no incentive for the manufacturer to undercut, backstab, his distributor.

This gets to another question ... why don't LFS order from online retailers? Or at least use that info with their distributors?
If you are paying online retailer's sale price on something ... shouldn't you tell your distributor that, and have them pass that criticism up the line? IMO, that is a crock [the disparity in prices charged to online retailer vs. LFS] ... and I would be tempted if I were a LFS to find methods of ordering online to get it cheaper. [can you say `in-name-only' Propagation location ;)]

Anyway, great discussion ... thanks to all for being nice. And double thanks to LFS folks for taking the chance and participating.

mm

[MDKyleZ]

Just thought that I would add something.

The two best stores that I've ever seen are.

ichthyman: Owns a great shop, by far the best in the Tampa area. http://www.ichthythings.com/

Also if you happen to be in the Pensacola area Reefers Aquatics is outstanding. New site (just getting it up and running. http://www.reefersaquatics.com/

Check out there sites and stop by if you have the time they both diserve a visit.

Kyle

[ichthyman]

If you are paying online retailer's sale price on something ... shouldn't you tell your distributor that, and have them pass that criticism up the line? IMO, that is a crock [the disparity in prices charged to online retailer vs. LFS] ... and I would be tempted if I were a LFS to find methods of ordering online to get it cheaper. [can you say `in-name-only' Propagation location

Passing the criticism up, often times falls upon deaf ears. As an example, I talked with my Marineland/Aqaurium Systems representative about why PetsMart was able to sell the 200g bucket of IO at $35, hell at one time $29, plus offer free shipping. I asked what distributor was supplying them the salt, as I would like to buy a pallet and offer my customers that type of pricing. I was informed that Aquarium System sells directly to PetsMart even though they are clearly a retail establishment. In the past, this representative had told me that it is Marinland Inc.'s, for those who don't know Marineland owns Aquarium Systems and Perfecto, company policy that they all purchases by retailers MUST go through one of their wholesale distributors. A little duplicitous of them don’t you think?


Kyle,

Thanks for the support. The current website kind of sucks but the new one should be up a running soon.

[MiddletonMark]

Kyle, thanks for the clarification. And frankly, that sucks.

It's like they wish everything was Petsmart ... while I can tell you, that's not what just about everyone here would want.

[MDKyleZ]

John,

No problem when it's back up I would love to order a couple of frags from you, I used to live in Zephyrhills before moveing to Pensacola. I did not get to your shop too many times (seeing as how I only lived there for about 6months), but everything that I've ever bought from you is still alive and doing very well.

Kyle

[htoler]

on the thought of money grubing LFS`s
you should meet the guy that operates the store here ..
for example today he cut down my 29 gallon tank that I am turning into a fuge..total cost $0.00, and has always been very helpful. I have done business with him pretty much as long as he has been in business. sure I could get a lot of things online cheaper.. but if anything goes wrong with whats bought online .
whereas if somthing goes wrong with what I buy from him, he is ready to make it right..
my thoughts , I have only meet one owner that I would class as a money grubber ,, I do not do business with him..

just my .02 worth

[MattandJenCook]

I am so glad that I have a great pet store. My buddy that got me into the hobby works there and has for 9 years. He has never steered me wrong. There are people that travel about an hour to go to that petstore when there are many others around. I guess there has to be alot of bad petstores out there and I have seen them. I went to petco in columbus, ohio on (brice road) and I asked how much is this manderin goby and she pointed to a different tank pointing to a lunar wrasse and said 19.99 and it is a great community fish! First and a Last time. I figure for every 1 good store there are 100 bad stores.

[MattandJenCook]

porky I agree with you on most of your arguments in central Ohio there aren't many nice petstores. I was at a fish store and over heard a sales associate that they mark up there live stock sometimes 9 to 10 times!!!! I decided to go to the net I order from live aquaria I have never had a dead fish arrive and they are cheaper than petstores. As for bad LFS going out of business because the other better LFS will never happen because usually the Bad LFS doesn't rely on fish sales it is the dogs and cats that make them their money. That is usally what a bad LFS is a puppy mill trying to branch out and get another quick buck selling fish. I have a good friend that works at a petstore and he knows alot about fish and reefs I go to his store everytime that I want to get supplies, corals, or talk shop. There are good and bad with everything but instead of doing research on fish I would first do reseach to find a good petstore.

[DgenR8]

I don't usually buy anything from "pet stores" the vast majority of things for my tank come from fish only specialty stores.

[JeffMo]

For me. I am all for helping out the LFS that is in my town. There happens to be only one that I know of. However, I won't buy something from them that is way overpriced, but many other things I will buy from them. An example is, I was going to buy a Penguin 330 filter. They tried to sell it to me for 79.99. I happened to be in a town at another FS just about an hour away and got the same exact thing for 42.99. I found that to be quite ridiculous. I couldn't believe it. However, in support of this LFS I will definitely buy other things from them which are just 5-10 dollars more than someplace like Petsmart or whatever. They have given me some good advice on starting a marine tank. So I do feel like I want to give them as much of my business as possible without buying something that is $30 too much.

[porky]

Hey MattandJenCook, how goes it?
Welcome to RC!
Yeah the LFS scene in Columbus is pretty sad but there is light @ the end of the tunnell. Have you been to www.phishybusiness.com?
Are you all members of CORA? www.reefaquarists.com
Jason

[MattandJenCook]

Hey porky I am new to the whole reef internet scene but I have had salt tanks for years I will become very involved with this site and want to join a local reef club. Thanks for the welcome and the information.

[DgenR8]

Hey JeffMo,
[welcome]
I can understand what you're saying, nobody enjoys getting raped.
That's one factor in deciding what's a good store, and what's a bad store.
FWIW, if you're going reef, that Penguin filter isn't worth even the lower price you found it for.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Caveat Emptor - Let The Buyer Beware.

LFSs are stores in the business of selling. They have families, houses and bills. In this day and age, it's up to the consumer to get smart. That's why we surf this and other sites. If you walk in any store appearing to be an easy mark, when you leave, your dollars won't. With their high overhead and low turnover, they need to SELL, SELL, SELL. Concider yourself fortunate to live in an area serviced by a store selling this type of equipment. Some folks only get to see merchandise on the WWW. We just got a new store (our only one) and I haven't spent a dime but have gotten very good advise, and yes, I went home and verified what the owner told me. No hard sales pitch and he even talked me out of buying high dollar items that "HE" felt I didn't need. He's got a customer!

[mcsock]

Unlike many, I do have a reasonable LFS to deal with. The more I look the more I am convinced with the increase in net pricing for live goods, with shipping, as long as I can get it from my LFS it is cheaper. Hard goods are a totally different story. Nothing can justify me spending double the cost for a pump just to support my LFS. So for now live goods as much as I can from my LFS and dry goods from net suppliers.

[JeffMo]

DgenR8,
Right now I'm just trying to get started in having a salt water tank with just a few fish and a little live rock. Nothing that will be near as extensive as many on here have. Once I get the hang of it for a while, then maybe I will consider getting more expensive equipment(once I've saved some money and all). But, for what I'm trying to accomplish for now, I'm told that the Penguin will do just fine to keep a few fish healthy. To be honest, I'm not real sure how much money it would take to have the proper equipment for a reef in a 55 gallon(not talking about lighting, just yet, only the filtering, sump and such). Anyone out there have a guesstimate?

[cwschoon]

JeffMo:If you are going Penguin, get the Emperor 400 and not the 330.

[DgenR8]

If you've already got the Penguin, it will do you just fine for a fish only system, as long as you do not overstock the tank.
When the time comes to step up to a reef, you can still keep the filter, just run it without the cartridges and bio wheels with the occasional addition of carbon.
If you didn't buy it yet, there are better ways to spend your money.

[JeffMo]

What would you have bought with that money instead? I'm trying to just started in having a marine aquarium. I have about 400 - 500 dollars to spend(it was my birthday last week). I was going to buy a 55 gallon tank and stand. I figured that was big enough for a tank, at this point(and money wise), and still have enough money to get the stuff I needed to get things going(this includes live sand, but not live rock or fish). So, if you were in my situation and you wanted to get started without paying more than I have to spend, what would you buy...assuming I will be getting a 55 gallon tank and stand(about $250 or so)? Thanks for your input.

[kadams2]

For a tight budget, I would go with a simple canister filter for your first tank (yes, you will go bigger later, trust me) and then get a sump in the future when you can afford all the goodies that go with it. I started with a $100 Rena Filstar and it is far superior to any hang-on-back filter; much more flow and filtering capabilities.

Remeber to "over-buy" everything. For example: don't buy a filter that's rated for 55 gal. - buy one rated for at least 100 gal or more. Same applies for protein skimmer, heater, lighting, etc. the increase in cost a very minimal. You picked a good size to start with, because the 55 gal four-foot long tank can be upgaded to a 75, 90, or even 120 gal. in the future w/o having to buy new equipment....another reason to buy large capacity accessories...you want to be able to transfer rather than replace.

Many people will have differing opinions, but I think a Filstar 3 would be a great choice for filtration - and can be used with any of the sizes mentioned above. For a protein skimmer, you can get away with using a prizm for now (about $80) but will have to upgrade that later if your buy a larger tank. I only suggest this model because you are on a budget, and any decent model will run at least double that...ideally, a Aqua C remora, would be perfect, but runs about $165 new(its a much better skimmer and would be fine with larger tanks, so probably worth the extra cost if you can swing it)
You may have to wait on lighting, because even a mediocre Power Compact set-up is gonna run you at least $250, (unless you find used) so you will have to be content with a fish-only tank for now.

Disclaimer: These are only my suggestions...there's a hundred different ways for you to go about this thing, so you will get a hundred different opinions.
Best to do as much reading and research as possible beforehand.
Good luck,
Kevin

[SteveKr]

I used to run a LPS, we only had FW fish, but there are always customers that like to negotiate the prices. I never really did understand that. It is not a car, it is a fish, or a dog. We didn't pay a person to wash and wax it once then leave it on the lot. We have to pay vet bills, electricity (think of the electric bill for a properly setup fish department). The main problem I see is the staff. We had issues with properly training the staff in the fish area. So to fix that I just told them if you get a question you don't know find me or call me.

Supplies (especially tanks and stand) aren't marked up too high. If you look at the fish proces they are marked up at first glance, but then you take into account the loss from shipping, any meds, paying experianced people to take care of them, and electricity, it starts to add up.

Before I worked there I had never worked in a petstore before, no I understand a little better how it works. And I actually understand that (contrary to popular belief) Walmart is very good for mom and pop shops. They bring traffic into the area that wouldn't be there normally. Walmart helped out our business tremendously. Even though we did get alot of how do use this... questions.

One of the main problems with the "money grubbing" aspect is new customers. They hear all of this talk, come in with the attitude that I am just there to sell them what ever I can, regardless if they need it. So when they tell me they want this fish, and this fish, and this fish. And I say well fish A is a schooling fish, you shouldn't buy just one, for all of those fish you will need at least a 29 gallon tank (yes I know the 10 gallon is on sale for $5), let's not forget a filter (you want the cheaper UGF, OK, now you need an air pump), lights (enough light for plants if you want them), gravel, some plants, food (I am sorry that ADF will not eat flake food you have from 5 years ago), a net, a gravel vacuum, a heater, and any misc. decorations. The price adds up. And now they think that maybe I am just trying to selling them stuff they don't need, because they heard from so and so that I am just a money grubbing store, and they bought a 10 gallon tank from me and bought 30 different fish from Walmart, but blame me because they all died. But that is how it works. LFS stay in business with intermediate hobbyists. The more advanced ones want specific color morph and rare stuff, and they will drive to the next city (usually to a LFS), and spend a month trying find the EXACT one they want, beginners go to walmart, meijers, petsmart, etc. And those places do have a couple things that are worth buying, they certainly have their place, but then when it comes time for a problem, you need some advice, or are looking for something a little more advanced, I am there wating for you, willing to help.

sorry so long for my first post :) Money make the world go 'round, and you usually get what you paid for.

[gregmoeck]

I guess I am lucky when it comes to LFS. There is a store here in Louisville, KY that is nothing but reef/salt. They have tons of coral and farm as well. You can get nice frags of SPS for 10.00 or super colony style for 22.00-25.00

Just the other day I picked up a red Monti Cap frag for 30.00, a purple Monti Digi which is 3 inches for 20.00, a red Monti Digi which is 1 inch for 10.00, a Huge multi branching solid based Larry Jackson puple tip. I count 17 tips and this cost 20.00.

They also have tons of other corals, halides on tracks which constantly move, They build custom Acrylic sumps and tanks. They sell clean up critters and all their fish look great plus they sell RO water.

[davidpt40]

Hey greg I live in Louisville too. What store is it?

[gregmoeck]

It's Aquatica Reef out off Blankenbaker Road. Very cool setup.

I will contact you next time I have some frags, maybe we can swap.

[shengster]

all i want to say is ...i hate walmart!

[xxaquanutxx]

Yea Someties LFS feed you bull and wrong stuff to make the sale.. But who doesnt?? Car salesman, Matress salesman, telemarketers.. the world is full of people like this.. so it just isnt the LFS's..