Size vs Age in False Percs

[Nagel]

This weekend I purchased a pair of False Perculas. The LFS had two sizes available, small (1" or so) and jumbo (2-2 1/2"). In the interest of forming a pair I purchased two of the small guys (at least I hope they're both guys right nowhttp://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon10.gif). So, my question is this. Two small false perculas at 1" long are indeed juveniles, correct? And, if so, how long until one of them decides to turn female? So far the both of them are very playful with each other, and I have not noticed any territorial aggression, or any other type of aggression. Hopefully they will develop into a pair, as I would just love that.

Second question would be: What to feed them. I have some marine flake that they seem to like, and some zooplankton with daphnia that they also like. Would this, in addition to the hair algea (minimal) in the tank, be a suitable diet for them? They are too cute to lose one to me being inconsiderate of their needs.

Any and all info would be appreciated!!!!

[Carlos]

You have a pretty good chance that both clowns are still juveniles in which, if that is the case, one of them will eventually become the dominant fish and turn into female. The one that turns into female will keep growing while the male will not grow as fast as the female will.

Again, if you got two juveniles, you should have no problem at all pairing them up.

In terms of food, flake food is good but I would recommend mixing the food with some green algae and also some meats. Also, it is not a bad idea to soak the food in Selco to provide all vitamins not found in the food. Selco will not only benefit your clowns but all other fish and the entire system.

HTH,

[Nagel]

Ok,

Thanks for the info.

Another question I have:

I picked up the fish on Saturday. One has his fins fully extended, and looks very healthy. The other seems to have his fins clamped a bit, but still looks otherwise healthy. The dorsal fin is definately not extended on the one fish, and both of his front fins on the bottom seem to be a bit clamped. He also appears to be gasping more then the "healthy" one. Is this cause for concern? Should I see if I can exchange him for another (they had about 12 in the tank)? I love these little guys, and definately do NOT want to suffer the loss of one of them.

Are there other causes for the clamped fins, especially since his mate has his fins fully extended, and the water parameters seem to be fine. 1.024 SG, 0 nitrite, 7.5ppm
nitrate and .044 ammonia, 8.2 pH and temp is 82.

I checked with the LFS, and they said an exchange would be no problem, especially since I bought a pair, and only one seems to have the clamped fins. I would be bringing him back tomorrow (tuesday) night if you think I should exchange for one that appears to be healthier.

Would a partial water change help him? Any other suggestions would be appreciated, as these two seem to stick together everywhere in the tank, and I AM concerned since I know full fin extension is a sign of a healthy fish.

TIA




[Edited by Nagel on 04-23-2001 at 09:12 PM]

[Carlos]

My concern is you water quality. Your amonia should be "0". Not 0.something. That might be causing the problem. Some fish are hardier than others just like humans.

I would definitely do a water change. Before you make the water change, test your water source and make sure that it is not the water that is causing problems. I would not take the fish back to the store. As long as the fish is eating and swimming along with the other, it will be fine. Feed it well and soak the food with Selco and the fish will be good.

Since you mentioned that you got the couple from a tank with 12 of them, then there is a very high probability that you got two juveniles which is a perfect situation as they will eventually turn into a mated pair.

Try to bring your ammonia level to "0" and keep us posted!

Carlos

[Nagel]

Ok,

Tonight when I get home I will do a 30% water change. The ammonia is at .044 because I am on the tail end of the cycle. I have seen my nitrite peak and fall to 0, and the ammonia has been fallin for 1 1/2 weeks now, with the nitrate rising. I've had 4 snails in for 2 weeks now, so I figured it might be ok to add the clowns. Guess I jumped the gun a bit.

On another note, the little guy seemed somewhat better this morning. Though his dorsal fin is still a little clamped, the front bottom fins (pectoral I think?) were definately opened more, and he didn't seem to be gasping as much (though he is still gasping more then his buddy). Is it possible that the light is stressing him a bit? He came from a tank lit by NO flourescents, and I have the 175 w MH on the tank. I ask this because he looked better this morning, under only a 15 w NO tube, the MH comes on around 1pm.

Other then that, I will keep you updated on the water change, and the test results for my replacement water (I suspect its good, maybe some phosphates, but a RO/DI unit isn't in the budget for another 2-3 months)

thanks for the concern and advice.....

[Carlos]

One of the resons why the little clown might be doing better in the morning is that pH drops during night and the lower the pH, the less lethal ammonia is. The higher the pH, the more lethal ammonia can be. Do not take me wrong, ammonia is lethal no matter what, but pH has geat influence over is lethality.

I think you should be fine if you do a water change and keep a very close eye on ammonia and make sure that pH is constant. If there is ammonia, there will be nitrites which are also lethal so water changes will help greately.

Yes, unfortunately you did jump the gun. But that is ok! We all have done that. What counts is what you do now to help the little guys and provide them with the best possible home you can provide them.

Just for the record, any ammonia (>0) is no good. Same with nitrites. Nitrates are more forgiving and fish can withstand a high concentration but ammonia and nitrites are a big no no.

HTH,

Carlos

[Nagel]

Slap me in the head.

I should have known that. I know lower pH makes ammonia less toxic, and also that pH drops overnight. I just didn't put 2 and 2 together.

Now I'd place my bets on the ammonia being the cause over anything the LFS has to say. It just makes sense, and falls into place.

Thanks for the tip (AND making me use the brain a bit), and I'll keep you all posted....

[Nagel]

Well, Here's the results for the past two nights of tests

Date Temp SG Nitrite Nitrate Ammonia PH
4/26 82 1.024 0 0 0 8.0
4/27 82 1.023 0 0 .0499 8.2

I did an 8 gallon water change last night, and my tapwater tested at 0 on Ni, Na and Am. pH of the tapwater is 8.0. I would assume the 8 gallon change equates to about a 35% water change, as I do have a 4"-5" DSB. I did the water change on the 26th about 5:30 pm and tested at 10:30pm (just before lights out). I tested again tonight at 10:30 pm.

I use the Wardley "Master Professional" test lab. Nitrate is tested with tablets and incurs a 5 minute wait. The others are tested with liquids, and the ammonia requires a 20 minute wait. I was told it was a decent test kit, and things I've read seem to indicate that an ammonia test that requires 20 minutes is one of the more accurate tests.

The clown in question (We'll call himn Laurel) is still eating, they have a voracious appetite, and come to the surface for flake as I open the hood. "Laurels" fins are still clamped, but each morning they look better, but not as good as his tankmates (We'll call him Hardy) fins. Absolutely no pun intended with the Hardy name, I chose that from the comedians since one will be bigger then the other if everything falls into place right. "Hardy" on the otherhand has beautifully extended fins, almost like he's flexing them. "Laurel" always appears to be breathing more heavily then "Hardy". Some may call it gasping, but I would classify it more like heavier breathing. He just doesn't look to be gasping, just breathing (opening and closing his mouth) 2-3 times to every 1 time that "Hardy" is doing it. Like I said, both readily accept the flake and zooplankton with daphnia, so eating will not be a problem. Both are very active, cruising all around the tank very quickly and quite often. They are attentive, and usually come to the glass when you walk past the tank. There seems to be no aggression between them, and they are always at each others side, even after lights out when I see them gently swimming in a hole in the rock, side by side. No fin nipping, no chasing, though it does seem like "Hardy" is the leader, and "Laurel" follows him around quite a bit.

I did order an RO/DI unit (my tax refund came), but that won't be here until next week.

hmmm.... down ammonia, down! I do NOT want to use any of the "magic cures" that the LFS suggests, primarily because I would prefer to keep as many of the additives that I can, OUT of the tank. Especially when it involves a process that should be happening on its own in the tank.

I know my cycle passed, but I am now puzzled as to why my nitrate is reading 0. I was up to 10 by 4/16, and at that time ammonia was .044 and dropping. My nitrite peaked at .25 on 3/27, and has been 0 since 4/5. Suggestions? More water changes? I'd kinda like to wait for the RO/DI rather then use tap for now, it will only be a few days (Mon or Tues), but if I must, then I must.

I planned on getting 4 or 5 more astraea snails this weekend if the LFS has them in, should I postpone this until I get the Amm problem under control? I have 4 snails and 3 hermits in there that have been there 2 weeks or so, and doing good so far.

thanks in advance!!!!

[Carlos]

Seems like you are up to a good start!!!

everything is good except for that little ammonia spike but that is normal considering that you added fish. Your bacteria bed should be able to handle the little spike without any problems.

The reason why your nitrates have gone down is because you have been doing water changes. The only way to remove nitrates is thru anaerobic bacteria (DSB), Macroalgae, or water changes.

I think you are fine with the test kits you are using. I am very partial to Salifert Test kits but that is just my opinion.

I am glad that the little guys are eating good. Are you supplementing their food with Selco? If you are not, you should seriously consider it! It is the equivalent of humans taking in Vitamin C and Zinc!

I am glad that you decided to order your RO unit. That will definitely help you keep the water quality high and also will help you keep hair algae out of your tank, to some extent.

In terms of water changes, let the tank tell you when they are needed. Keep testing and if you detect some ammonia or a drastic increase in nitrates, then do a water change. Usually the fish and the tank will let you know visually that a water change is needed. Either via the fish state of health, or algae, or the way corals look.

In terms of the snails, I would actually wait until your tank has no ammonia and no nitrites to add anything. Once you have better water quality, you can start adding stuff again.

HTH,

[Nagel]

Ok,

Here's the follow-up.

Ammonia is being stubborn, doesn't want to budge for long from .044X. After a water change, it goes down, maybe a day or two, then it starts to climb back up a little bit, ending up around .044- .0449.

Mr. UPS should be delivering my RO unit today - WHOO HOO!

On another note, the clown (laurel) seems to be doing somewhat better. His fins do seem clamped compared to the other clowns (hardy), but they are more open now then they were before.

One thing I noticed last night while watching them is that hardy seems to stay higher in the water column then does laurel, but they are almost always together (laurel below hardy). Laurel also did a "shimmy" last night a few times, kind of like a mini epileptic seizure. He was swimming fine, slowed down and then his whole body seemed to twitch like 4 or 5 times. Is this him showing his submissiveness to the other clown? Or is it a sign of something else?

Other then that, both are eating fine. No LFS has selcon, so I ordered some from premium aquatics, should be here soon. I also have nutrafin max, marine "slow sinking morsels", and the clowns love it, the shrimp really LOVE it, but it seems like it needs to soak a little bit before being eaten, as the clowns tend to hold it in their mouths for a few minutes before being able to bite it. I would think its kind of crunchy until it soaks a bit.

I think he will be fine, especially if I can get this damn ammonia down.

Last note, the fiancee surprised me with 3 new inhabitants for the tank on saturday (when I was going to get snails but decided not to based on your recommendations). One emerald crab and two peppermint shrimp. I doubt these guys will have much of an impact on the ammonia, and they seem to be doing VERY well, the emerald is eating tons of algea and the peppermints have gotten 2 of the 4 aiptasia that I have found so far.

[Carlos]

Nagel,

Glad to hear that dude!!!

I think once you start using filtered water, your ammonia will go away. I have a feeling that the source of nutrients is your water.

In terms of the clown having an epileptic episode, well, it is not. It is a sign of withdrawal from all the drugs that the LFS used to give them!!! :D

Actually, they are stablishing the hierarchy order. That is very normal and actually a good sign as it shows you that the clown is aware of surroundings and strong enough to do ritualistic courting!!!

You will be fine with the inverts you added. They add very little load to the tank and they will also help get rid of any excess food that is at the bottom.

Glad to hear everything is good!!!

[Nagel]

WHOO HOOO!!!!!

Ammonia was finally at the big ZERO today! Must be something about the RO water I'm using. One four gallon change on 5/2 and 2 one gallon topoff's and I finally hit 0 in the N/N/A tests! I have another 4 gallon change planned for today. The DI half of the system will be here later this week, and I can't wait to add that! I seem to have gotten it just in time as the hair algea and cyano decided to drop by this week. I'm using the water changes as a double, also using them to vacuum out as much cyano as I can get to. I'm thinking on picking up some more snails today to also combat the hair algea, but they (the algeas) are expected to rear their ugly heads in a cycle anyway. I'd rather add a few snails at a time then a bunch at once, especially since I would prefer they live (g) and take a week or two to clean the tank then to get 30 and have a clean tank with dead snails in two days.

The clown (laurel) still doesn't look as good as his partner does, and actually, his breathing rate seems to have increased overall. His fins are opening a little more then they originally were, but still nowhere near full extension.

The params currently are:
Temp 80
SG 1.0225 (a little low, but thats the lowest it goes, high end so far is about 1.0245, I'm still getting the hang of making replacement water and keeping things steady in the topoffs)
N/N/A all ZERO
PH 8.2 and VERY steady, morning and evening. I was surprised to get a 8.2 this morning before the lights came on, especially since I do have rather bright lights (MH)
The water is crystal clear, and all inhabitants appear to be fine (Laurel's fins being my only concern at this point). The Selcon will arrive with the DI unit, and then I can start adding that to the food routine.

Any other thoughts as to why this fish seems so stressed and the other one does not?

[Carlos]

Every things sounds good.

All I would do is try to bring SG to 1.025 and keep it there.

Also, your clown is not going to look real good from one day to another. Remember that the little guy had to put up with stressful lethal chemicals (ammonia) for a couple of weeks. It is probably tired. The food and selco will help and also the fact that ammonia is 0 will be even more helpful as you have gotten rid of the source of stress.

Question, what are your nitrite readings?

Carlos

[Nagel]

Ok,

The nitrite has been 0 for a few weeks now. Nitrate climbs to about 10 before I get a chance to do a water change (5 gallons). Everybody seems to be much happier now though. The little guy is perking up, yet the damn ammonia test still kicks out a .044 usually about 2 days after a water change. It's always 0 right after the change, and never higher then .044. I'm contemplating trying another ammonia test kit, as I think the wardley master test kit may not be the best alternative out there for me to adequately measure ammonia. We added a few creatures this past weekend, one being a nice rock 1/2 yellow star polyps, and 1/2 being sand polyps. The price was irresistable, not to mention the polyps that came on my live rock are MUCH larger then when I started, so I figured that would be the first "safe" addition (and last "coral" for a while), the other addition was a small (1") royal gramma. He gets along GREAT with the clowns, and has even claimed a hole in the rock as his home (sleeps in it, hides in it, etc...). The grammas fins are all nice and extended as are the little perculas, things are starting to come around. I'm still concerned about the .044 readings on ammonia, but not as much as I was when the little percs fins were clamped. I'm starting to get some red slime on the rocks and sand now, and I think thats probably me overfeeding (heck, I bet it is, it didn't rear its ugly head while there were no fish in there being fed), and trying to get it naturally under control (no snake-oil additives for me if I can avoid them!). I'm reducing the amount I feed, and trying to balance that by feeding a much smaller amount, more often. So, as an update, all the inhabitants seem happy and healthy! Just trying to get that damn ammonia to lose its grip on .044 now. S.G. is now 1.024, and swings between 1.024 full, and 1.0245-1.025 when I need to top off when I get home from work. Picking up a 20 gallon rubbermaid container to hold mixed makeup water, it seems I never considered the salt leaving via the protein skimmer or when I use the turkey baster to suck something out, but all them little drips do add up I guess. Ahh well, patience is the key I guess....

[Carlos]

Nagel

Nice to hear that everything is good.

I would definitely change the test kit and after that, test your source of top off water. It might be that the water you are adding has ammonia in it.

Anyway, good to hear that everything is good. Remember though that any ammonia is not good so you have to bring it to 0.

Keep on reefing!!!

[Nagel]

Well, All water has been RO for the past 2 weeks, and since friday it has been DI. Topoff should be pure, but I will test it none-the-less. I should be able to pick up another test kit tomorrow during lunch, so we'll see then what the results are. Gonna change 2 gallons tonight as I vacuum out some red slime, but thats RO/DI. I'll check that as well just for sh!ts, kicks and giggles.. I'll keep ya posted.

Otherwise, all inhabitants seem happy, fins or tentacles are open, and I'm impressed that I've done this much so far!!!! SW is so much more involved then FW. Even my FW plant tanks are easier then this, but alas, My Reef has quickly become the favorite tank around here, even in its infancy, it still impresses me and my friends. What'll they think AFTER I put some corals in? heheehe

thanks for the help my man...