Motivation for a purchase even tho you know....

[DJ88©]

Your fish WILL outgrow your tank.

Why? I know that some will happen due to lack of knowledge. It happens in this hobby. LFS's are great at saying "that Emperor angel will be fine in your 33 gallon tank. Really". Not all LFS's are this way I know. Some are. it is a fact. Newbie mistakes.

But why do informed knowledgeable(presumably) reef keepers still go out and buy a fish that will reach over a foot long and throw it in a tank that is nothing more than a mini jail cell for it? Why buy a fish that you know in the wild is a VERY active swimmer and needs more than 4' long burst of swimming to be "semi normal"

Are these purchases made with the self centered thoghts being that it's only a fish? I know many people say "I'll take it out and return it when it gets too big" How many do in fat do this? How many of those same fish die due to incorrect care and housing? Even if it survives and grows to full size. How many LFS's will take back a full grown adult fish if there is no one around that can house it? How many fish were in fact sent to a larger system? I know it does happen. But I am betting that the predominant number of those same fish die before reaching full size. Due to overstocking, poor health or whatever.

Just some of my thoughts. any of your own? :) I do have more :D

[drtherc]

but I do care, and, if a fish gets too big, I have a LFS who will buy him back and find a newer, bigger home for him. I had a large, fat naso, a near-adult koran, and a good size sailfin. All have new homes, thanks to my LFS buddy. It's really a good idea to find out the buy-back policy before ever buying a fish. I, as a newbie, saw a bursa trigger I loved, asked the advice of this LFS, who said it would do well in my tank, not bother the other inhabitants, and within two days of putting him in my tank, had 4 disappearances. I called this LFS back, and he wouldn't take him back, even for 50%. I no longer deal with this LFS, and I at least learned to do research before any purchase.

[Flanders]

How many LFS's will take back a full grown adult fish if there is no one around that can house it? How many fish were in fact sent to a larger system? I know it does happen.

And how many people want to buy a full-grown fish when they can get a cute little one for the same price or less that will fit in their undersized tank? This bothers me especially with all the captive-raised tiny hippo tangs. A lot of those are going to end up in a bad situation.

I don't have many answers. I think there are a lot of reasons people make stupid decisions. Misinformation, the I'm-going-to-upgrade syndrome and just plain stupidity.

[Bomber]

Darren

Don't discount individual personality either. I've had Atlantic blue tangs that just stayed in the top corner waiting to be fed and petted, and cherub angels that did nothing but constantly neurotic race from one end of a 10ft tank to the other - drove me crazy!

[DJ88©]

Jerel,

I know. Fish are strange little things sometimes. I know they have personalities. And differ from fish to fish. That is for sure. :D

I just find the people buying them are the stranger ones. :D They know the fish is too big for say the hypothetical Emperor in a 33 yet they still buy em. My curiosity is why? The motivation for such a decision when they know there is a good chance for the fish outgrowing the tank or worse.

I had a trigger that LOVED to be petted and played with and never did anything other than drift here an there happy as a clam ;) Yet seen other Bursa's that paced like a caged animal in a 6' long tank and looked ill and discoloured.

I had a stunning Atlantic blue. Loved that fish. but it would vibrate at the glass after doing laps for fifteen minutes straight. That in a 4' tank. Won't do it again.

drtherc,

You are very luck to have a store that will do this. Most won't that is or sure. As you found out with the second place. :)

Flanders,

A lot of those are going to end up in a bad situation.


I agree.

[drtherc]

There's a caveat, tho...I only get 40% of what the LFS thinks they can sell him for. That's better, though, than keeping a large fish in a small tank.

[Laura D]

I think that even when you may know that a fish is going to be a foot long, and that it loves to swim for long distances, it is difficult to comprehend just how much room a fish like that really needs until you actually see it cooped up in a tank too small for it.

When I got my 155, I thought it was a big tank. As my sailfin tang gets bigger and bigger, I realize that tank is too small for him. Especially after swimming with wild sailfins and seeing how large a full grown one really is, I am ashamed to have such a beautiful animal cooped up in a tiny cage. My hippo tang seems pretty well adjusted, but I feel so sorry for the sailfin. He looks really bored to me. I wish I never got any tangs, but I have them and do what I can to keep them happy.

[Rezzan1]

My 2 cents:
I think alot of people just do not care! Like the fish strore is in it to make money. The person buying these fish is in it becuase it is cool. I think my tanks are cool but I do not think that it is cool having three tangs in a 60. I've seen it done, a person that lives not to far away came to see my little tank. He new all of the names and husbandry of my corals and was very opionated on everything I should do with my tank. When we talked about his tank he mentioned that he has been battling hair algea for the past year and was finally winning with the battle with the THREE TANGS he has purchased! I restrained from telling him my opionon becuase I was not in the mood for a debate which would of lead no where.

His algea problem probably came from overstocking.

[DJ88©]

That's better, though, than keeping a large fish in a small tank.

Yes it is. As long as it is in a larger tank. Hopefully that is where it goes. :)

it is difficult to comprehend just how much room a fish like that really needs until you actually see it cooped up in a tank too small for it.

Laura,

That is the mistake I made when I put my atlantic blue in a 90. I know that each fish is unique. but wow did I feel cooped and antsy watching that fella scream around that tank. :eek1:

It is about learning. But hopefully a few people will think twice after reading threads on here and think twice before tossing that fish in there. I know all won't. As Rezzan1 said;

I think alot of people just do not care!

[naesco]

David what I find hard to believe is that you could actually part with a fish that you have had for a long time. I might just be me:) but one grows too attached to tangs.

I find it easy to understand why someone with a small tank would buy a small tang. They are pretty hard to resist.
What I find difficult to understand is why they attempt to justify their purchase with the varied excuses we hear.

Scott Michael writes that despite their best intentions, most reefers do not 'trade in their tangs' or upgrade their tanks. The fish just languish in them and the reefer has blocked the issue from his mind. That same reefer will be one of the first to advise others not to do what he did though. That, is good.

[wizardgus®]

An interesting thread, good replies IMO. I hesitate to ask mine, but it has niggled at me for awhile. It is the darker side of the question though.

How moot is it? What I have always wondered is, how long does the average fish live in the average tank? Or worse yet, how long does the average hobbyist stay with it?

Especially after reading Henry's recent article where a Tang takes 5 1/2 years to reach (IIRC) 80% of its adult size.

There are many other factors, some of which I am just learning, BUT, does tank size really become an issue for the average hobbyist before either the fish dies or they quit the hobby?

The reason I ask is that from what I've seen the tank size argument is weak and not very effective with new hobbyists.

[wizardgus®]

WOW! I didn't intend to kill the discussion, I meant to spark it. Maybe in reading my post and not knowing anything else it looks like a troll? Let me expand on this.

I don't believe that part about some or many people don't care. I think we are doing a poor job of explaining it with the tank size argument. Most people are pathetically poor at judging or visualizing size descriptions. Both for room in their tank, and how big the fish will grow. Also, people are generally poor at thinking down the road. Even in more important aspects of their life most people don't have a solid plan for 5 years from now, let alone their fish tank.

The next most common part of the tank size argument is the fish's happiness. How do you quantify that? Without exception someone with an astounding 6 months of successful reef keeping, will chime in about how happy their Tang is in their 46g bowfront. Trouble is, they probably honestly look at their fish and think,"Look how happy he is! He swims back and forth fast all day long!"

I researched all my purchases, I missed some important information. Just had an interesting exchange with hcs3, about open-water fish. That argument is both compelling and understandable. It also showed that where I thought I had done a pretty good job, I instead have made a major error as I have 3 open water fish in a too small tank. That's embarrassing to say the least, but I am a long time aquarist and I will take remedial action. And I will move forward with better understanding. But I am more convinced than ever that we have to find a better way to educate.

I see this as very similar to the watts/gal. thing. People
need a guideline like that. But they also need to understand the hows and whys. Swimming habits, territory, feeding habits and requirements, the reasons that tank size makes a difference.

And I'll say again, we need to educate ourselves on proper argumentation. You tell me, "Your tank is too small." I have an emotional attachment to my tank. You are attacking my tank. I have just become a defensive listener. How about, "Here is the problem you will have with that fish in your tank." Better?

[drtherc]

Jay, your thoughts are appreciated. This also boils down to the "Finding Nemo" phenomenon, where kids find the stars cute, and want one of their very own, and parents, not knowing or willing to research, will buy a 7 gal tank for Nemo and Dory.

Your point is well taken, and I believe I've stated that I've been in the same boat, with a naso, sailfin, and adult koran angel all in the same 92 g tank with other smaller denizens. I didn't know better. But now that I've had the pleasure of watching these small fish (when I bought them) grow big, and have gotten sad about giving them up (albeit to a better home), I know now what I won't do.

When I started with fish, it was two goldfish in a 3g bowl, then I graduated to a koi pond, and a 40 g goldfish tank, then all of the above with a salt water FO tank, now I've gone the distance, made the 40 g a FOWLR and am upgrading the 92 to a reef over the next 6 months or so. The one concession I'll make is to get the smallest hippo tang I can find, because that was my favorite (other than my picasso trigger).

What I found from starting small was that my interest was held, I had the desire and made the time to do water changes and watch the health of my animals (the guy who bought the naso stated that it was the healthiest naso he'd ever seen), and to train someone to take care of my tanks when I went yonder to visit their wild bretheren. I know I'm in this forever, or until the glass breaks in my 92, at which time I'll probably give it up. But the point is, if you want a piece of living art, it's best not to go into the hobby, because over time, it will fail. If you're willing to give the animals the time it takes, as with any pet, then you should start researching and doing the hobby. I'm even able to use my tanks as a teaching tool for my 8 year old grandson, who now wants to be a marine biologist when he grows up. That may not happen, but he'll have an appreciation of the hobby, and the work it takes.

To end, my advice to anyone starting out is to speak to a friend who keeps fish, find out what it takes to maintain, and then start small. My advice to anyone giving advice on how to start is to find out what the motivation is for the advice seeker. Determine if they really want fish as a pet, or is it a decoration for their house. If the latter, do all you can to discourage someone getting into the hobby, because they will fall out after 6 months.

[Rezzan1]

I agree with some of the statements you made and some I disagree with.

I think proper argumentation has to be one of the most important tools in educating others in this hobby.

All to often do I see people in the hobby becoming aggressive; making statements like you are doing this wrong or your tank is to small for those fish. Comming across in such ways will automatically put up a wall in the conversation.

On the opposite side of the spectrum there are persons that will not speak up at all. I have hard time with this especially when I visit LFS and start talking to the owners about their choices in livestock. I am very passive and do not want to offend the owners' business. So I usually try to understand why they choose to carry the animals they do.

I think we should meet between the aggressive and passiveness(is that a word?) I beleive you can be assertive and not be offensive when trying to educate.

But this all depends on the person you are trying to educate. They have to want to learn for you to teach them. I will stick with the majority of the persons in this hobby are not sincere when it comes to the animals well being. If they are not sincere then why do they care if a tang is not happy? Or I think the sincerity of the person depends on the relationship that the aquarist has with the animals he has. Excuse the expression but IMO if there is a way to show them the LIGHT it is very difficult. I'm am not saying that I do not make mistakes, as of right now I am barely holding on to a BTA. I have researched this animal thoroughly and two weeks after I purchased him I found out that I had to move my tank.:( He has wondered onto the glass where he is not able to find a suitable spot. But I feel that I am sincere when it comes to my animals well being.

[flameangeljs]

Excuse the expression but IMO if there is a way to show them the LIGHT it is very difficult.
One of the ways I find to make sure that a Newbie will "relate " to his fish and other animals from the beginning, is to show them my 15 year old Paracanthus Hepatus (hippo tang) and how he and the
Acanthurus Olivaceous (orange shoulder tang ) eat out of my hand or eat my hand -LOL !!! Bubba (the hippo ) has shown many people that fish have personalities and are not just "pretty fishies". I can tell immediately if the newbie will be a good reef keeper or not and I discourage any who will not be good ones. It helps a great deal with what I suggest each person keep for animals in their tanks in the future.

[Rezzan1]

flameangeljs


That is a creative way of and I hate to say this word but judging a person. We all do it and sometimes it is for r better interest or the fishes better interest. I think that a LFS owner/man. has a responsabilty to animals he has under his care and there are a few LFS that adhere to that responsablity.

Good job

[PYelton]

I bought a blonde naso today and I have a 120g tank.Hes just 2 inches long including tail so at this point the tank is plenty big ,but I know he will outgrow it .When he does I'll either find him a bigger home -or eat him -doesnt really matter -does it?

My motivation to buy him is strictly to help deal with a dictyota problem -I really dont care to have the fish for any other reason.

[flameangeljs]

PYelton,
That is really sad and I hope you change your mind about the Naso. They have wonderful personalities , when you get to know them. Very beautiful fish, gentle eyes and easy to interact with.
But yes, will get way too big for your size tank .
I really wish the LFS had not sold it to you and had suggested a better "Algae controller".

[Rezzan1]

Most people just do not care. I have nothing against you PYelton and I hope that I do not offened you by me making an example of you.

"My motivation to buy him is strictly to help deal with a dictyota problem -I really dont care to have the fish for any other reason."

If that is what is the motivation than that is what it is. May I ask this one question what is your motivation? Or what was your general motivation to start a salt water aquarium? And after being educated what was your motivation?

In all honesty I am not in this hobby to do research(evan though I would love to contribute if I could) my geuss is that most others are not either. We all want the same thing a beutifull reef aquarium. Some people are willing to put certain animals in unaterual and unhealthy enviorments doing so. Whether it be to rid a tank of parasites(cleaner wrasse), or algea (tangs), or decorate(gonipora).

I also believe alot of people remain ignorant for a reason. Hypothetically speaking a person has a shark in a 75 gallon aquarium, you tell him why it is not wise to keep a shark in such a small tank and he replies "I did not know." Sometimes ingnorance is bliss. Still not an excuse.

Maybe the reason no one has disputed any of my posts is becase I am speaking the truth and I am just saying the obvious. Well it takes two people to debate so I best stop beating this into no one:) .

Jason

[technoshaman]

Well I bought a Regal about a year ago to go in my 75 - it was a juvenile and I told myself I would buy a bigger tank when he needed it. Fast forward to now and he has grown some but I am keeping true to my word and have set up a 215 gallon - 6 foot tank for him and a few other growing fish (niger trigger and harlequin tusk). If I buy a fish I do the research and would like to think I am going to keep it for the long term and hopefully approaching it's natural lifespan - providing it with more than adequate accomodations is the least you can do IMO and if a 5 years down the road the tang and trigger need a bigger tank then maybe the 10 foot tank will get planned - not everyone has the resources to do this though and for those folks research is of paramount importance with potentially large fast swimming fish - tangs are the most frequent victims of cramped tanks IMO but unfortuantely are a staple of our hobby.

[RichSea7]

Originally posted by Wizardgus:

I see this as very similar to the watts/gal. thing. People need a guideline like that. But they also need to understand the hows and whys. Swimming habits, territory, feeding habits and requirements, the reasons that tank size makes a difference.


This is an idea that I have posted in other threads before. Generally, it just gets shot down. :uzi: Just what is an appropriate tank/dimension size for a given species ?What I would consider appropriate for this type of guideline would be the minimum conservative size to keep the species throughout it's lifespan.

I do believe that a conservative tank size/dimension guideline for species commonly seen in the hobby would generally do more good than harm. Especially if it were widely available at a frequently visited resource like RC.

Sure, there are experienced hobbiests out there who can "bend" the rules on occassion and still have healthy and happy fish. More often though, we see new reef/fishkeepers who have no clue what is even close to an appropriate tank size/dimensions for the fish/invert he/she is considering. If responsible experienced reefkeepers don't create such a guide, then LFS owners often are the ones who are filling -in this infromation gap.

JMHO

Rich

[Kevk]

IMO I find it hard to believe that someone would put the time effort and money required for this hobby could do so without caring for their fish. Most people I know in the hobby either get a bigger tank every few years or get out of the hobby due to time, life or financial constraints. There are people who just want to look at pretty fish or corals, but usually not enough to put up with what we put up with.
There are definatly types of tangs, AND angels, triggers, sharks and rays that should not be sold to private individuals. Nothing sickens me more than seeing a four foot shark in a 10 foot tank.

[jeo]

Just my own personal story on this subject - I have a 75 gallon tank and bought a 4" Naso Vlamingii tang about a year ago. Initially I decided not to becasue I know he would get way to big for my tank. But he ended up being at the LFS for months, so I figured, well, I will take him for now and then pass him on to someone with a bigger tank soon. Yesterday I passed him on to someone with a 400 gallon tank.

[ofblong]

well lets put it this way. I am in the process of saving the funds to buy a 180g(based on rc experiences and comments) reef ready aga. I bought a hippo tang that is about an 1" long well when i bought it it was that big. now it is about 2" long anyways it is in a 72 gallon. My plan is to buy this new tank and lr by January. I am putting some $$$ away every week from my paychecks in a seperate account to do this. I bought the tang because it was a very good price and it had not touched the lfs water yet. I felt very bad for the type of water that fish was gonna end up in if i did not buy it. (lfs did not cycle there tanks before adding fish and corals). I myself have a plan that I want to move into a new house in 5 years. anyways I just wanted to point out that i myself have thought about a bigger tank before I even bought the tang but ended up buying the tang before the tank. Probably because it is cheaper. I partly did it so that All the fish in my tank would be used to each other so there was no territorialality going on like when the new tank was started.