Japanese Eating Angels???

[MauiReefer]

I just got off the phone with a diver buddy of mine, and he informs me that the wholesaler I worked for is hurting, business is slow. But now he mentions that his demand for large Atlantic angels is up. He has about 6-9 divers working for him. And the reason is food. The japanese are eating these angelfish. This makes me mad. how can a selfish person Deplete our natural resources and ship them internationally to make a quick buck. From what I heard he gets a HUGE upfront Payment. This make me ANGRY. Its one this to send them there for ornamental use, but to eat. This infuriates me. I want to know if anyone knows anything or heard anything about this scenario. And if there is anything that we can do to stop this selfish SOB's. This is not right.


Jared

[JakePehrson]

This is not uncommon. People eat "ornamental" fish every day. Have you even been in the South Pacific? All those expensive fish we buy for the aquarium are being eaten for dinner.

The only way I think you could stop it is find out if they are breaking any laws.

[MaryHM]

Double post

[MaryHM]

Call me crazy, but getting a fish so you can eat it for nourishment doesn't seem anywhere near as selfish as getting one so you can put it in a tank to look at for your own personal pleasure. You should have seen the gorgeous Imperator Angels they were eating in Fiji. And the tangs they would spear while they were collecting ornamentals so they'd have dinner later. And clams? We had to put a sign in the collection station that said "DO NOT EAT THE CLAMS" so the guys would keep their hands off of them.

[Aaron1100us]

you don't "have" to eat an Exotic animal, whatever it is; inorder to have nurishment. There are plants and things more common for them to eat. I know those fish aren't exotic to them but I bet there is a lesser amount of them in the world than their other choices for a meal. Keeping fish in an aquarium "usually" isn't going to kill it and is a means for possible reproduction to help the species IMO.

[tag007]

If the fish isn't endangered, why not eat it. As long as it is in no chance of endagerment. I don't see any problem with it as they are not caught in massive nets, it is employing several divers catching individual fish, so it shouldn't be too detremental to the population, and they must be pretty expensive, keeping demand down, also helping preserve the population. Just think, if they were popular as ornamental display type fish, they would probably kill 5-10 times as many to get one specimen... Just because it is cute doesn't automatically make it a species we need to conserve... IMO, as all this is.

You would be suprised what I have seen eaten. The most outrageous I have seen was a trip in Mexico. Happened to be there for a sea turtle hatching. Didn't understand what all the locals were doing down at the beach so late with baskets, then I reallized they were catching baby sea turtles. Asking porque, they responded Para Comer. Turtle soup!!! Needless to say I was chucking sea turtles into the ocean as fast as I could find them.

[ChasingPuck]

Pardon the sarcasm, but let's get real. How many angels are captive bred? Heck, most people don't have a tank large enough for ONE, much less TWO, let's laugh about having a breeding population. And selfish? Taking an animal out of the wild where it could reproduce and help sustain the wild population, stuffing it into a little glass box...Yes, much better than eating it. Truthfully, as far as the wild population is concerned, landing in either a tank or a plate is the same--one less mouth, one less parent.

I love my fish, and do my best to provide a good environment for them. But, I don't kid myself into thinking that being in the aquarium is somehow better for the fish. Might as well be indignant about people eating Colorado River Cutthroat Trout. (North American native fish, very limited habitat, most of it unprotected, much of it occupied by competing, hybridizing, non-native rainbow trout.) It was petitioned for listing on the Endangered Species List in 2001).

[mkirda]

Originally posted by MauiReefer
The japanese are eating these angelfish. {snip} This is not right.

Jared

Jared,

So what? Fish are fish. You have never eaten a fish before? Ocean perch? Lake perch? Walleye? Bass? Salmon? Cod? Orange roughy?

People all over the world eat fish. Last time I was in the Philippines I had red lapu-lapu (Strawberry grouper) and a really tasty Naso Tang. Seriously good fish, that one.

I cannot figure out the difference between an angel sent to Japan or the orange roughy I last had from New Zealand...

If you think that this is not right, you ought to visit China sometime. All sorts of things on the menu there, and some out to really churn your stomach. :D

Regards.
Mike Kirda

[Bluetangclan]

The asians are raping the world, not just the oceans but land too. Just look at tigers, rhinos and elephants, they are endangered because of ridiculous folklore that says certain parts ground up make aphrodisiacs. Doesnt surprise me in the least that they are eating pretty fish, hell they raise dogs to eat them too. Total frikken barbarians and they say we are uncultured, at least we arent target killing the worlds wildlife in mass numbers, sharks are close to being endangered but does that stop the asians from netting millions each year, chopping off their fins and throwing the still living shark back into the sea to die just so they can have soup? Those barbarians still hunt whale along with a certain northern europian country, it should be perfectly legal to be able to open fire on these thugs who are raping the world, but no we would get in trouble, while they continue to pillage and plunder everything they can.

[mkirda]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
The asians are raping the world {snip}, it should be perfectly legal to be able to open fire on these thugs who are raping the world, but no we would get in trouble, while they continue to pillage and plunder everything they can.

Jeez, take a step back in time, folks, to 1938 and the Yellow Peril!!

Racism is alive and well here on Reef Central.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

[nvillacci]

All them poor Baby turtles... and most of the sea turtles are endangered... :(

[Bluetangclan]

Its not being racist, its the straight up truth. They are ruining the oceans and no one is doing a dang thing to stop them. Its not only the japanese who are barbaric, the rest are just as bad although I dont know much about Singapore or taiwan, the koreans are really barbaric about the whole thing. My barracks were not 200 yards from a dog farm and we heard them beating the dogs to death in the morning when forming up for PT all the time. Yes they beat the dogs to death, not cut their throats or any quick merciful death, supposedly it makes the taste better. The Asians in Asia are not the nice friendly people they are here.

[nvillacci]

Ive seen films on China residents eating dogs... The ride bicycles aroudn with like 2 dogs stuffed in little cages on the back. Then they throw them on these huge firepits to cook. I almost cried out of anger,it was that sad. My girlfriend did cry. :(

Nick

[MauiReefer]

the whole thing I can understand goes both ways, BUT when a wholesaler of ornamental fish for 15 years decides to make a quick buck, everyone suffers, the fish, and yes even the asians. I know for a fact he uses Melafix in his systems, and most aquarium chemicals used are not for human consumption, I wouldnt be surprised if this guy is responsible for the SARS breakout..j/k, but seriously, do you think he informs his customers of what he does. Thats my issue


Jared

[MaryHM]

Do you think people are informed that their lovely groupers, wrasses, tangs, etc... are collected with cyanide by the food fish industry in the Philippines and Indonesia? I can hear the waiter now, "And tonight's special is cyanide caught grouper broiled to perfection in a delicious seafood sauce" ;)

[Python73]

MauiReefer -

So some atlantic angels get exported for food. Big deal, more will grow to adult size to replace them. Whereas red snapper from the same area are overfished to the point of extinction each fishing season in the Gulf so that they have a 2 week season. But that's okay because snapper is tasty, right? :rolleyes:

MaryHM -

I love the story of when you told that collector he was eating a $100 plus show fish... :D

Aaron1100us -

Who says atlantic angels are "exotic?" And who are you to say that they should eat "plants and things" instead of fish? :rolleyes:

And keeping a fish in an aquarium "usually" isn't going to kill it?!?! AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one. Let's compare the average life span of a food fish on the reef versus one imported regularly for the ornamental trade. Wow.

Tag007 -

Natives need to eat, and turtles are easy to catch (and tasty). Billions of dollars have been spent to repopulate the sea turtles around the world, mostly with our tax dollars. A few turtles in soup aren't going to crash the population.

Mkirda -

Good point on the roughy. Oh, and the difference? Orange roughy stocks have been decimated by the US fish market. This is a deep water, slow growing fish that is really damaged by overfishing. And while we are at it, ever seen a Chilean Sea Bass? Right, and you aren't likely to, since it became popular in US restaraunts.

Bluetangclan -

Wow. Now we know what the "clan" part of your handle stands for. And I'd love to hear how Western civilization isn't raping the planet as much as the "evil asians." :rolleyes:

Nvillacci -

Here we go. Just because we domesticated an animal doesn't make it inedible. Sure, dogs aren't treated in the most humane way in some Eastern countries. But you think cows have a sweet deal here? Sure, right before we drive a nail between their eyes with a pneumatic gun. Get past it, and accept your role on the food chain.

Now I think I'm going to McDonalds for a fillet o fish (good old overfished cod :rolleyes: ) and a burger.

S !

[MDP]

Many thanks to Python 73 for posting a balanced view on some of the issues raised on this topic. Personally, I was really disappointed to see some of the replies posted here.

[Python73]

BALANCED!! :lol: That might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said about one of my posts!

Thanks.

S !

[Bluetangclan]

True we in the west are not without fault with pollution and shrimping( a horrible travesty) the above mentioned red snapper, on the ground we have the horrifying rattlesnake roundups which along with ignorance are driving that species towards endangerment. But at least for the most part we slowly learn from what we do, the alligator was near extinction we put it on the endangered list put down harsh penalties for killing them and now it has recovered greatly. On the other hand even with penalties and such there is still a huge market for animal parts for herbal remedies because of their folklore in asia that simple being put on the endangered list wont help. But anyway sorry if my aboves offended anyone but I am more radical in my views on conservation.
Tell me if this isnt an ironic twist though my gf works for the city and is responsible for aquiring land to build roads on, I always kid she is my arch nemisis.

[MDP]

I'll agree with that. One thing I find consistently disappointing about Japan is some of the absurd arguments put forward for not enforcing conservation measures e.g. the recent refusal to acknowledge that seahorses are an endangered species due to lack of accurate scientific data regarding numbers. That in itself is probably down to the continued practice of using them in Chinese medicine (referred to as Kampoyaku over here) and the ghastly practice of selling dried ones as souvenirs at beach resorts. Conservation measures aside, its a pretty gruesome souvenir to take home anyway.

On the other hand, the Japanese marine shops are pretty much self-sufficient in Acropora etc due to the presence of some coral farms in the Okinawa Islands (Cp Farm, Pakalolo and PPM). Here some pretty impressive conservation work goes on.

There are some definite glaring inconsistencies in conservation issues over here.

[mkirda]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
The Asians in Asia are not the nice friendly people they are here.

Hardie-har-har... That is a laugh...

You were in the military in Korea. You know what? The Koreans don't particularly like the US military, especially after we run over their children. You expected a nice, friendly reception?

Not that the Koreans are a particularly friendly people. The Japanese are, IME, far more friendly. More so in Japan than they often are here in the US.

Lionizing the entire Asian half of the world is pretty damned funny...
Who represents 1/4th the population of China, yet consumes far more resources of the planet?
Go look in the mirror, buddy.

Your Anti-Asian feelings are blinding you to the truth that the US is more of a problem than 'the asian barbarians'.

For me, if there is an Asian bogeyman, it would be the poachers hitting reefs with cyanide for the live reef food fish trade. That is an extremely narrow group, and does not reflect on the Asians as a whole...

And as you are eating your next burger, realize that according to the Hindus, you are eatting a GOD. There are few insults as bad as being called a 'beef-eater'. What we eat is so ingrained in us culturally, it is extremely difficult for people to understand that other cultures eat things we would not.
Would you eat bugs rolled in dough?
How about rotten raw soybeans?
Fertilized duck egg, complete with chick?
Dog?
Horse?
Camel?
Monkey?
These are all normal foods eatten in cultures that have existed for a thousand years or longer than our own European roots.

Try exploring some other cultures sometime.
Regards.
Mike Kirda

[ChasingPuck]

Oddly timely, this was the quote including with AWAD today...

Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on "I am not too sure." - H.L.Mencken

[mkirda]

Originally posted by MDP
On the other hand, the Japanese marine shops are pretty much self-sufficient in Acropora etc due to the presence of some coral farms in the Okinawa Islands (Cp Farm, Pakalolo and PPM). Here some pretty impressive conservation work goes on.

There are some definite glaring inconsistencies in conservation issues over here.

Oh, I agree. They are at least 20 years behind the US in conservation thinking.
However, a cultural observation here:
Japan, being such a mountainous country, has little arable land. What is flat is often built on. Last I had heard, the country was not self-sufficient in food... With the country so prone to disasters, there is a wound in their psyche that makes them fear disasters, and fear not being able to provide for themselves.

This makes them over-compensate in certain ways. Japan is quite resource-poor. I have no doubt that the average Joe Blow from Montana has little to no cultural understanding of the Japanese, nor of what they face.
With no land to support the amount of food production needed, they turned to the sea centuries ago. Fish is as much a part of their diet as brats are to a Wisconsinite. So, yes, they will go far and wide to fish in international waters.
I don't happen to like it, or support it, but I understand it in the context of their land, their culture, and their psyche.
I also happened to live there for two years in Kobe, before the earthquake, and was pretty fluent in Japanese.
So I have some understanding of the people there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

[MauiReefer]

OK ok, I surrender, I know its an issue that there are many views on, and unless nothign is done illegal, then there really nothing to do. BUT hows this for illegal. The same wholesaler, I found out, has been doing some shiesty stuff, probably for years considering I worked there 3 months and seen it only rarely. We would have our local divers bring us in Atlantic fish, all kinds of angels, hogs, wrasses, parrots, and inverts. Nice large angels, HUGE queens Frenchs, Greys and Rockbeautys. Well, Id say twice in the 3 months Ive been there I picked up shipments from Belize, which to my surprise, are the same fish, Queens Frenchs, Passers, Greys, etc. WEll to my surprise, as I speak to my local diver (who happens to be my boss's cousin) I find out that it is Illegal to collect Queens 8 inches plus, when I know for a fact we would recieve them atleast 4 times a week, from the local divers. Now my local source reveals the Mr. Wholesaler purchases these Fish from Belize, only to have a papertrail to cover his aquisitions from locals. Now I know the local divers are to blame as well, but I have witnessed the wholesalers devious ways of having them bring them to him only. He would brag to me, how he has all these divers exclusively. I also know for a fact that he aquires illegally Florida rock, and sells it as high priced Fiji. I was told these little secrets while we had lunch everyday and he would end up drinking too much. Anyways, I just want to let this out. I am still a little mad when I hear all of his decietful ways to exploit the ocean. I can really care less about him and Im over the situation, but I just feel the things he has done are wrong, people should know.

Jared

[nvillacci]

No offense, but wouldnt it be alot more proactive to actually tell the Authorities about this?

[Bluetangclan]

quick notes, i am not anti-asian I am anti asian practices. Sure the Japanese land is bad, get over it, that doesnt give them the right to screw over the oceans and the rest of the world. I never said we were faultless here in the west, pollution is the biggest problem we do along with pretty bad fishing habits. But our fishing habits are nowhere near as bad as the Asians, at least we arent purposely killing endangered species just as a placebo to help us get lucky one night.
Mauireefer get in touch with your local DnR department they would very much like to know whats going in I am sure. Thats Department of Natural Resources.
Actually I had a blast in Korea, it was fun. The older Koreans dont dislike us. Its the younger college students who missed out on the war and the terrors the North Koreans wreaked upon them that dont want us there. Our ratio of running into people is far less than there own, but when it does happen they blow it way out of proportion. The recent protests about the accident involving the two children was not about the children, it was yet another excuse to have a protest. The parents of one child actually forgave the US military and went to speak to the protesters telling them it was just an accident and they were forgiven, the parents were mobbed and beaten. Heck we even were "volunteered" to help a large number of local farmers bring in their rice from the paddies before a particularly violent storm from hit which would have ruined them. Most of the people there are nice, just some.....ok back to the original topic
one last note- Hindus do not think cows are gods, they are the level of reincarnation right before humans which is why they dont eat them.

[naesco]

Originally posted by mkirda
Jared,

So what? Fish are fish. You have never eaten a fish before? Ocean perch? Lake perch? Walleye? Bass? Salmon? Cod? Orange roughy?

People all over the world eat fish. Last time I was in the Philippines I had red lapu-lapu (Strawberry grouper) and a really tasty Naso Tang. Seriously good fish, that one.


Regards.
Mike Kirda


:eek1: You ate a Naso Tang and admit it!!!!
Moderator how do we excommunicate this member???:mad2:

[MauiReefer]

who? I dont know who to tell


Jared

[DgenR8]

After reading this entire thread, I have but one word:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/rcsmilies/caution3.gif

[Bluetangclan]

I will go crawl back into my tank now, carry on! :P

[mkirda]

Originally posted by naesco
:eek1: You ate a Naso Tang and admit it!!!!

Sure do, Naesco.

And it was yummy! Especially dipped in the local vinegar with a crushed labuyo pepper.
{sound of lips smacking}

Best of all... It only cost like 30 pesos.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

[naesco]

Originally posted by mkirda
Sure do, Naesco.

And it was yummy! Especially dipped in the local vinegar with a crushed labuyo pepper.
{sound of lips smacking}

Best of all... It only cost like 30 pesos.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Happy you replied. I am under the eye of DGenR8:)

[ReefGeekster]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
Its not being racist, its the straight up truth. They are ruining the oceans and no one is doing a dang thing to stop them. Its not only the Japanese who are barbaric, the rest are just as bad although I don't know much about Singapore or Taiwan, the Koreans are really barbaric about the whole thing. My barracks were not 200 yards from a dog farm and we heard them beating the dogs to death in the morning when forming up for PT all the time. Yes they beat the dogs to death, not cut their throats or any quick merciful death, supposedly it makes the taste better. The Asians in Asia are not the nice friendly people they are here.


One Word: SARS (if that is a word)

China banned the sale of exotic animals for food/pets in the outdoor markets while they deal with SARS, maybe Mother Nature's hint of things to come?
Wonder why a third world country's village log every tree surrounding the village just to have it wiped out by a mudslide later?
Thought had it that AIDS was introduced through a animal, a man having sex with a ape to be exact.

[rockyd]

Anyone ever seen one of the documentaries on some of the Eastern fishing fleets? It was heartwarming to see hundreds of sharks netted, relieved of their dorsal fins, and then tossed back in the water to drown slowly....

:uzi:

How can anyone see this atrocity and not be inflamed? Please, one of you who is defending Eastern fishing practices, come back with something on this subject. I'd love to hear ANYONE defend it. Oh, by the way, if you eat shark fin soup you should really think about where it comes from. I've already heard someone bring up the cruelty of sacrificing young cows for veal as a retort, but at least the populations of cows are not endangered.

We, as a culture, have done our share of decimating populations as well, but at least we (I think) have a semblance of a conscience when it comes to conservation. I just wish some other cultures would follow suit. Want to go hunting for whales, anyone?

[Chelmon]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
The asians are raping the world, not just the oceans but land too. Just look at tigers, rhinos and elephants, they are endangered because of ridiculous folklore that says certain parts ground up make aphrodisiacs. Doesnt surprise me in the least that they are eating pretty fish, hell they raise dogs to eat them too. Total frikken barbarians and they say we are uncultured, at least we arent target killing the worlds wildlife in mass numbers, sharks are close to being endangered but does that stop the asians from netting millions each year, chopping off their fins and throwing the still living shark back into the sea to die just so they can have soup? Those barbarians still hunt whale along with a certain northern europian country, it should be perfectly legal to be able to open fire on these thugs who are raping the world, but no we would get in trouble, while they continue to pillage and plunder everything they can.


You call yourself not racists? Because of your experience with a few asians, you are stereotyping all asians, and you want to "open fire" on them because of their culture, and call them barbarians. If there was an even more advanced civilization, would they look at americans the same way you view asians? did not the white man also rape the world?

oh yeah, it is legal for australian farmers or anyone to kill "pretty" parrots to get rid of them from their farms. being "pretty" doesn't mean they are above other birds.

[Chelmon]

If we swapped countries with Japan, I think we would be fishing like they do, because we won't have as much, if any of the prized land animals to eat.

[Python73]

Originally posted by rockyd
1 - Please, one of you who is defending Eastern fishing practices, come back with something on this subject. I'd love to hear ANYONE defend it.

2 - Oh, by the way, if you eat shark fin soup you should really think about where it comes from.

3 - I've already heard someone bring up the cruelty of sacrificing young cows for veal as a retort

4 - but at least the populations of cows are not endangered.

5 - We, as a culture, have done our share of decimating populations as well

6 - but at least we (I think) have a semblance of a conscience when it comes to conservation.

7 - I just wish some other cultures would follow suit.

8 - Want to go hunting for whales, anyone?

1 - I don't think anyone was.

2 - Sharks? :cool:

3 - No, I didn't say it was cruel. It would be cruel to eat them before we killed them. And they'd be hard to cook.

4 - Well of course, because we have kiiled off hordes of normal animals so that the cows can roam in their place. If Siberian tigers tasted like fillet we'd have herds of them instead of there being like 5 left in the wild.

5 - exactly

6 - SH'YA, right. Tell that to the wolves and cougars, brook trout, mud puppies, etc. that we have wiped out. We save what we LIKE or FEEL GOOD about, and that is it.

7 - They already act like us, and we like them. I'm not a globalist or a tree hugging hippie marxist, but factually, most cultures are doing the same stuff.

8 - There are plenty of whales. Well, of certain species. Which ones did you want to hunt?

S !

[JakePehrson]

This posted start out talking about eating angel fish. Now we have digressed to talking about eating shark fins and whales. I don’t see a problem with someone eating an angelfish that maintains a large population in the wild and is no where close to extinction or even close to being in danger of extinction. Such is life, and has been forever. I do see a problem killing endangered or close to endangered whales or catching sharks just to cut off their fins.

[ChasingPuck]

Okay, but how about the less obvious threats? What about the rancher who grazes his cattle on the same grounds as the endangered jumping mouse? Or where an endangered thistle is making it's last stand?

Anyone care to guess the number one threat to all animals, anywhere? Loss of habitat. Through the ever expanding tide of human growth, forest acres turn into estates, condos and slums. Reefs and coastlines are packed with swimmers, boaters and fisherman, scaring fish away from prime areas, as well as changing their behavior as they try to survive in an every decreasing space.

Criticize the people who have more than 2 children--they're the ones who are increasing our populations and reducing the space available for animals of any kind. The simple fact is that as long as the habitat can support the animals, and they are capable of reproducing, a population can tolerate losses. Keep in mind that removing the animal--to fillet or tank--removes it from the reproduction cycle. End result is the same.

[rockyd]

Python, you're a smarta**, but I will agree with some of what you said. This entire conversation is more than a little ridiculous, and I think everyone is right and wrong on some points. The only thing any of us can do is not support the harvesting of endangered animals by not eating them. And that goes for buying extremely rare specimens for our tanks, as well. Sooner or later, our species is going to pay the price for recklessly harvesting the earth for our own needs, and it's not just one culture that's going to be responsible.

[rockyd]

Oh, btw, how about hunting blue whales? They are endangered, yet Japanese vessels still target them through loopholes in international law. How this process works:

A certain area of ocean exists where there is a treaty allowing harvesting of whales for "scientific purposes" :mad2:

Of course, some endangered whales are sacrificed along with the not-so-endangered ones.

The meat from the research specimens inexplicably arrive in a Japanese fish market.

Just an example....


R

[karlas]

ive heard of them eating angels they also eat puffers also. one thing they do that is a complete and total waste and destruction of life is they catch thousands of sharks cut there fins off and throw the bodies back in the ocean while there still alive to die. shark fins are a delacacy in the orient. they dont even take the meat from the shark just let it to get eaten and or rot

[Chelmon]

Originally posted by rockyd
Anyone ever seen one of the documentaries on some of the Eastern fishing fleets? It was heartwarming to see hundreds of sharks netted, relieved of their dorsal fins, and then tossed back in the water to drown slowly....

:uzi:

How can anyone see this atrocity and not be inflamed? Please, one of you who is defending Eastern fishing practices, come back with something on this subject. I'd love to hear ANYONE defend it. Oh, by the way, if you eat shark fin soup you should really think about where it comes from. I've already heard someone bring up the cruelty of sacrificing young cows for veal as a retort, but at least the populations of cows are not endangered.

We, as a culture, have done our share of decimating populations as well, but at least we (I think) have a semblance of a conscience when it comes to conservation. I just wish some other cultures would follow suit. Want to go hunting for whales, anyone?


Can you specify which eastern countries other than Japan that is really harming the oceans more than the US? Your statement is too general, like if I were to say that western countries pollute too much, or are more wasteful of natural resources.

Is there a connection between "Eastern fishing pratices" and responsible reefkeeping?
How about the slash and burn of the amazon rain forest so they can use the nutrient poor land for farming? and when soil is used up, they clear more forest for farming.

[iCam]

All I have to say is that people are too close minded.

[iCam]

hell they raise dogs to eat them too


That is very close minded. One of the major problems of Americans, is that if it's not customary here, it's weird and wrong. Americans have a bad tendency to look down on everywhere else. Japan has been recognized for having some of the strictest laws regarding the environment. You're not going to go anywhere and find a place that does not contribute tothe earth's decay. What's wrong with eating a dog? It is a bit outlandish here, but what is the difference between eating a dog and a chicken? Naturally, you see nothing wrong with eating a chicken, because you see it done everyday so it is nothing big. If it concerns you so largely, why do you have a tank? Every purchase you make could be damaging the ocean? You drive and eat don't you? You mow the lawn?

[bookfish]

"One thing I find consistently disappointing about Japan is some of the absurd arguments put forward for not enforcing conservation measures e.g. the recent refusal to acknowledge that seahorses are an endangered species due to lack of accurate scientific data regarding numbers."

Can anyone say Kyoto pullout!
Hardly any point in blaming asians for eating shark and angels when our esteemed leaders won't believe in global warming despite overwhelming scientific evidence.

Perspective is everything.-Jim

[rockyd]

That's a good point, Jim, and it's undoubtedly one of the most annoying things about the US government. This was, initially, just a post about fishing practices, so I gave my opinion about what I thought were the worst abuses of species rights, both endangered (blue whales) and not (sharks).

This is not, however, a condemnation on any culture as a whole. When you take into account the fact that we know about the pollution cars create, yet have not adequately researched a fossil fuel-free vehicle so that it can replace what we have now, we look just as bad as anyone else in the world. And SUV sales keep rising......

I think everyone (myself included) should realize that this is all just a matter of perspective; I think it's sad to eat a dog, but it's not wrong, and that goes for ornamental fish as well. As long as they are not an endangered species, anything is fair game to put on some culture's menu, and it's kind of close-minded to infer that they are barbaric or sub-human for eating it.

I only wish we could change the things that we know are wrong, but it seems that lobbying forces outweigh our influence when it comes to changing our government's policies, oftentimes.:mad:

[Bluetangclan]

I lied, I said I would stop but oh well. Eating dog in itself is not barbaric the method of how they butcher the dog is. They literally take a club and beat the dog to death, at least in the west when we butcher something we do it alot more quickly or painlessly(chopping off a chickens head) we dont drag it out in a torture session. The same goes for the sharks, they chop off the fin and toss the still living body back in. Totally cold blooded and merciless and not the way to do things. I already said the West isnt flawless but we are not cruel (as a culture)and do not purposely torture things either.

[takeshi79]

I found the original topic of this thread very interesting: is there greater moral repugnance in eating an ornamental fish or keeping it in an aquarium? My conclusion was that either way one “consumes“ the fish (be it tummy or tank), the end result is the same: the fish has been harvested from its environment, and will not contribute to increasing the overall population of that species. In fact, consuming the fish to sustain life is probably more just than keeping it for aesthetic reasons.

Upon reading further into the thread I became alarmed by the new direction it took. As an Asian-American (though in my own mind I’m just American), I found the comments by some fellow reefers to be both racist and egocentric. The very idea that western civilization is less morally corrupt than any Asian culture is absurd. The country that imported another race of humans to do manual labor, and then refused to treat them as equals because of they have more pigment in their skins points it’s finger at Asia? The country that destroyed it’s population of buffalos by shooting it from trains for “sport� points it’s fingers at Japanese fishing practices? Americans should crawl back out of the cookie jar before admonishing others for sticking their fingers in. And it does seem we’ve learned from it (sarcasm), the latest pew’s ocean report says we over fish 30% of the species they assessed and are destroying their natural habitat so regrowth will be limited if even possible. Read it yourself at pewoceans.org if you really want to know the state of the US Oceans.

That said, what’s with singling out Asians? If you were wondering, that’s what makes it racist instead of just hypocritical. Some estimates say 137 species are driven to extinction every day in South American rainforests. As for shooting Asians, I have a better idea. Why not just herd them into camps (again), gas them, and burn them in furnaces? Wait, some people think that's wrong? I never wanted to admit it, but I guess there really are people in Georgia who want to keep the confederate flag on their state flag for “historical� reasons. I’m not sure what makes us Asians nicer over here in America, maybe it’s all the clean air we breath, or maybe it’s all the responsibly harvested fish and well treated cows we get to eat here.

[srit1]

lol

[rockyd]

Come on, Takeshi, you should know better. Whatever occurred in the first half of the last century is not on the table for the purposes of this discussion; if it were, I would bring up the fact that the Japanese used Chinese people for slave labor in their factories up until the end of WWII, or the way Korean women were used as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers (some as young as 11 years old). Slavery and misabuse of other races is an unfortunate footnote to the history of most cultures when they are in a position of power, but thankfully it is not so blatantly prevalent in this day and age.

As for the good points in your argument, you are correct in stating that America is overfishing populations of fishes. The only thing we can do, if you want to make a difference, is not eat them. If demand goes down, there will be no reason to harvest them. We should be lobbying our politicians for increased regulations, if we really care to stop these practices.

As for keeping a rare species in a tank vs. eating them, I agree with you, unless the specimen is being housed for conservation reasons. A selfish collector keeping a rare breed for his own pleasure is not on the same level as some of hobbyists I have seen (who try to find ways to sutain and breed these animals). It would not surprise me to see breakthroughs in breeding success from some of the same people who frequent this website.

The cruelty issue, however, is one area where I can't agree with you. IMO, IT DOES MATTER how an animal dies. Beating it to death with a club, or the way sharks are stripped of their fins are much less humane than the way cattle are slaughtered here. Let me ask you this: would you rather be decapitated instantly, or have your legs cut off and be thrown into the ocean?

Pretty simple decision, huh?:eek:

[rockyd]

And, BTW, I know that these types of malpractices are not limited to Eastern societies, it's just that they are glaring examples of what occurs. Don't blame me for pointing them out, blame CNBC or the Discovery Channel for airing reports and documentaries on them. If I saw Canadians slaughtering caribou for their testicles and leaving them to rot in the forest, I would have commented on that, too. It's not racism, its an observation that you would make also, if you chose to focus on the facts.

Am I Anti-American also, since I stated that our government should make a stronger effort when it comes to conservation?

[capt. insano]

Bluetangclan,

You are kidding yourself if you really believe that all of the slaughter houses in the US kill animals "in the most humane way possible"

Have you never seen the footage of Pig slaughter houses....where the pigs are beaten with metal pipes and butchered while still breathing? Pig and cattle slaughter houses where animals are confined to pens just large enough to only allow them to stand? Yep, don't kid yourself, stuff like this not only happens in "those other countries", but here in the good ol' US of A.

Now, because some slaughter houses here in the US make the choice to do their thing in an inhumane way....is that necessarily a reflection of the morals and/or ethics of our society as a whole? Of course not! Nor is that a justification for calling all Asian cultures barbaric. In the US, we talk a big game about ecology and conservation, while making back room deals to open up some of our most pristine natural areas (ie Alaska) for oil exploration, we have the same slaughter house practices that you are blaming asian countries for, pollution, etc....the list goes on and on.

Just my 2 cents

[reiple]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
The asians are raping the world, not just the oceans but land too. Just look at tigers, rhinos and elephants, they are endangered because of ridiculous folklore that says certain parts ground up make aphrodisiacs. Doesnt surprise me in the least that they are eating pretty fish, hell they raise dogs to eat them too.
Wow. What is wonderful is your racist and totally ignorant statements. BTW remember around 90% of your reef animals were STOLEN....I mean "imported" from the Pacific/Asia.

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
Total frikken barbarians and they say we are uncultured, at least we arent target killing the worlds wildlife in mass numbers, sharks are close to being endangered but does that stop the asians from netting millions each year, chopping off their fins and throwing the still living shark back into the sea to die just so they can have soup?
Let me see....ABORTION is totally banned in the Philippines because the UNBORN HUMAN LIFE is sacred. What is sacred again for YOU? Dogs? Cats? Sharks?..... ok....who is barbaric again?

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
Those barbarians still hunt whale along with a certain northern europian country, it should be perfectly legal to be able to open fire on these thugs who are raping the world, but no we would get in trouble, while they continue to pillage and plunder everything they can.
Raping the world.....geesshhh..... ever try reading HISTORY BOOKS? Or even the NEWS?

Ok enough of such an arrogant, racist and ignorant individual like you. You are a very small minority here.

[reiple]

Originally posted by MaryHM
Do you think people are informed that their lovely groupers, wrasses, tangs, etc... are collected with cyanide by the food fish industry in the Philippines and Indonesia? I can hear the waiter now, "And tonight's special is cyanide caught grouper broiled to perfection in a delicious seafood sauce" ;)

This is the problem. Cyanide fishing is being stopped and is illegal in the Philippines but like anywhere there will be unscrupulous people as well as concerned people.

BTW Groupers are easy to catch. It's catching fish alive and intact to be sellable to collectors that still make cyanide fishing viable (fishes do not have bruises or cuts). Sad to see even small fishes (less than an inch) caught this manner.

Cyanide fishes are looked down upon here by educated reefers. Only those newbies or ignorant ones who still cater to such produce. (don't they notice their pets last only a month? geessshh)

[reiple]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
..... On the other hand even with penalties and such there is still a huge market for animal parts for herbal remedies because of their folklore in asia that simple being put on the endangered list wont help. But anyway sorry if my aboves offended anyone but I am more radical in my views on conservation.
......

It is disgusting isn't it? But you need to learn to RESPECT other culture. You/yours is not "the world".

When I show my tank to people who live close to reefs, it never fails to amaze them why I should bother to keep such animals when they are all around the place, like grass.

Your views are not radical. Offensive but not radical.

[reiple]

Originally posted by naesco
:eek1: You ate a Naso Tang and admit it!!!!
Moderator how do we excommunicate this member???:mad2:

You mean you do not eat snails? oysters? clams? crabs? seaweed? Getting too serious here.

[reiple]

Originally posted by karlas
ive heard of them eating angels they also eat puffers also. one thing they do that is a complete and total waste and destruction of life is they catch thousands of sharks cut there fins off and throw the bodies back in the ocean while there still alive to die. shark fins are a delacacy in the orient. they dont even take the meat from the shark just let it to get eaten and or rot

It is abominable. It should also be stopped.

But what of the story where thousands of crates of ornamental fishes shipped to rich western land so them guys with dollars can keep these fishes only to have a large portion die in transit, die in tanks and hopefully a handful actually survive.

I'd rather have responsible reefing so the death maybe reduced and it would lessen the drain of sea resources from the Pacific.

Ask yourselves a question once posted in GARF.

"If it is prohibit to take from the Florida reefs anything, why does the US allow harvesting and importing of reef animals from Indonesia (or Asia)?"

Isn't that double standard morality? Ok as long as it's not our reef?

Wiser to support responsible reefing.

[reiple]

Who buys cat food? Do you know what it is from? Who are the largest consumers of cat food?

[Bluetangclan]

I am not bashing the Asian culture, I like most parts of Asian culture especially their military history and architecture. However there are some aspects that have to change drastically. Continuation of evil and world threatening acts such as rhino horns and shark fins in the name of"Its part of our culture" is no excuse at all, zero, zilch. It needs to stop or if they want to continue it, do it in their own national waters and not in international waters. Its our ocean too, they dont have the right to systematically exterminate species just to make cultural soup. As far as the rhinos go, I dont have figures but park rangers and such are killed protecting rhinos all the time from poachers hunting them for the horns for the Asian market. This needs to end. the human population is expendable, we breed worse than rabbits, in sociology we learned it would take killing 250,000 people a day to even make a dent in the world population meanwhile the animals continue to suffer. Yes importing animals for our tanks isnt a good thing, aquaculture is the way to go. But we dont take near as much for the hobby as the severe overfishing does. If the Asians could aquaculture sharks for their soups, you wouldnt hear me complaining about the practice near as much, thats why I shut up about the dogs, two completely different subjects, they do raise dogs for that purpose. At this point whoever said it, endangered animals are more important than a single human, we are severely overpopulated not just over there, here too, I applaud the Chinese on their family size control methods even though I dont support the idea that a male child is more important than a female child which pervades not just the Chinese.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by reiple
Who are the largest consumers of cat food?

I dunno, cats? or maybe old people???

[Chelmon]

Originally posted by Bluetangclan
I am not bashing the Asian culture

Please read your previous post where you called asians "barbarians" and would like to "open fire" them. Maybe you are not bashing the culture, but for sure you are bashing all the asian people. Why do you continue to talk of asians as all the same?
And if you want to get rid of some of the human population, you have to get rid of non-asians too.

And I read in some ecology book that for energy used, americans require the most amount of land per person to sustain them.

If you really want to condemn asians, you need more than just sharks and rhinos to prove your point.
Look at all the endangered species in the US? It's because of the systematic extermination of them. How many oil spills have US companies caused? I don't know how big a fleet of fishing ships is, but an oil spill would be as damaging if not more.

Oh by the way, why are native americans allowed to hunt whales or other certain restricted species in the US? it's because it's part of their culture.

[Bluetangclan]

Its part of their culture and they are not hunting a severely endangered whale and the have to use hand thrown spears and there are severe restrictions on how many they can kill each year. Next I am just as vocal about stuff here in the US plus I never said the US should not have family limits imposed. Thats why I am pro-abortion, the world is over populated. I think that developers of wild lands need to be shot as well. They are consciously doing evil acts out of sheer greed. Yes tearing down virgin forest is an evil act. Dont get me started on the rain forest.

[capt. insano]

Blue tang,

I don't think you are a racist.....I just think you spoke before you properly thought how you wanted to express your ideas. You are apparently a little extreme in your view points, but thats alright.....it takes all kinds.

[DgenR8]

This thread has strayed almost as far as possible from "Responsible Reefkeeping" related topics.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rcsmilies/caution3.gif
If it becomes a debate on abortion, I'll lock it.
My feelings on the topic of the thread, I realize where I am in the food chain. I don't eat fish, or dogs, but for different reasons entirely.
I cannot condone the condemning of an entire race of people (which, BTW out number Americans many, times over) because I disagree with what they eat.
That being said, I really think this thread has out lived it's usefulness. Surprise me by adding something positive.

[MauiReefer]

again larry im sorry for starting this thread and the mayhem, please everyone I was just curious on these practices if they did exist, I didnt question their culture, but the actions of the wholesaler who is contributing. That was my initial request. Sorry again, and thanks to everyone for making this the most replied to post I have started:D

Jared

[Bluetangclan]

Umm Sting owns massive tracts of rainforest that he isnt cutting :)
They are successfully aquaculturing Sea Dragons in Austrailia for release to the wild.
Mandarins and flame angels have been successfully aquacultured, just not yet availbible for commercial sale. Who knows when this will happen.
Theres a good fishing spot for Lionfish on the back river of Tybee Island :) They appearently like shrimp drug along the bottom.
Oh yeah, you can buy plots of land on the moon from the UN, what gives them the right to sell it is beyond me, you and I both have just as much a right to it as the UN does.
Bulgogi and rice rules!!!

[reiple]

Originally posted by DgenR8
I dunno, cats? or maybe old people???

Canned cat food is made from commercially non-viable fish parts and whale/dolphin meat.
Who are the buyers of canned cat food? Mainly USA and Europe. Imagine how many cats there are and where the food comes from.

[smokinreefer]

i think the original topic can be easily answered...
you just need to see the context of the situation.

they are eating angel fish for food, so what.
to many, fish, whether it is a cod, trout, tang, or anhel, is just that, a fish. and to most, when they think of fish, they think of the ocean or they think of food.

only in the eyes of some, and hobbyists like ourselves that we look at these fish in different eyes.

that being said, i am a seafood lover! yummy.

here is a real story...
a few years back i went to fiji for my honeymoon.
alot of native fijians work the resorts.
my wife and i went on a snorel trip to a reef.
we dove off the boat and explored the breathtaking sps dominated reef. meanwhile our guide was fishing and catching the most beatiful fish. and no, he was not gonna put them in a fish tank!:lol:

different strokes for different folks.

lets keep in mind, that the original topic is not topic about any endangered or protected species. so i dont see anything wrong with what is going on.

[Bluetangclan]

Get real, whales are illegal to hunt, they sure as hell dont put it in catfood. Dophins are illegal to hunt as well but if they are put into catfood it is because they were accidently caught in the nets, its not a regular thing.

[divinesloth]

[edited]

[Chelmon]

So it's okay to say something like this?

The westerners are raping the world, not just the oceans but land too. Just look at ridiculous things westerners do. Doesnt surprise me in the least that they are eating pretty fish, hell they eat rabbits, crocodile too and hardly any vegetables. Total frikken barbarians and they say we are uncultured, at least we arent target killing the worlds wildlife in mass numbers, animals are close to being endangered but does that stop the westerners from killing millions each year, and clearing their habitat? Those barbarians still hunt whale along with a certain asian country, and still go hunting for sport, it should be perfectly legal to be able to open fire on these thugs who are raping the world, but no we would get in trouble, while they continue to pillage and plunder everything they can.

If you are offended by this, it's almost a copy of a previous post but switched asians and westerners.

[Bluetangclan]

I already said we made our mistakes and learned from many of them. Fine examples are thge alligator and egret, both of these were hunting nearly to extinction, but we saw our error and stopped before it was too late now there are huge numbers of them. The osprey was almost eliminated completely because of pollution, we saw and stopped and they are making a comeback. We saw and learned the errors of our ways and changed. I am not in anyway saying we dont have a long way to go because we do, but at least we learn. You dont see Americans, both North and south, and most Europeans(one exception) murdering millions of sharks and continuing the hunt for endangered whales. I can understand they want their cultural stuff, great, raise it themselves. If not then suck it up and find a substitute. Or like I think I have said confine it to their own waters and wipe them out to their hearts content because thats what they are doing to the world on a smaller scale.
The truth is we are cleaning up our act and have been for years, theres always more to be done and more will be done. Why arent they? Oh and dont mention the conservation stuff they have done in their own land, because there own land and national waters is all they affect.

[Chelmon]

And you don't see all Asians, murdering millions of sharks and continuing the hunt for endangered whales.
There plenty of responses, your own included, for you to read and think about.
This thread was about eating angelfish, and you say to commit genocide on the asian people.

Don't know why the moderators still allow this thread to be open, with such blatant attacks on asians.

[clamster]

I'm asian. I have been monitoring this thread in the last couple of days. I have taken neither offense nor exception to the points, since one of my interests is history. In the "amoral eyes of history", no one person, race or creed is either saint nor sinner.

Anyhoo... I can't remember the book, but it's somewhere in the house....

For the longest time man has been havesting from the ocean for subsistence living. In asia, the phillipines, mid-east and africa, giant clams (including Tridana) as well as what we consider to be exotic fish have been "subsistence food" for the local population. These fishermen basically earn about $5.00 USD / month with his catch.

Then along comes some fool like me who pays 150.00 for a T. derasa, $60.00 for a T. maxima, and another $70.00 for a purple tang... the locals suddenly realize that instead of selling his catch for food, he could become a havester, have the "exotics" ship away, and he could earn $30.00 USD per month for his family.

The locals learn to conserve and regulate their harvests. It's not the local population that I am worried about, but the "unwatched exporters and harvesters" , and guys like me that drives the demand.

At least there's CITES that watch over the import/export of these "exotics", regulate what can and cannot be havested,
but I doubt they are omnipresent all the time.

[Mako]

That's all folks. This thread has gone way wrong IMO. Let's remember...it's called Responsible Reefkeeping.

Closed

[gregt]

The purpose of this message is to assure those reading this thread that the staff of Reef Central is sensitive to cultural differences and does not condone the stereotyping of any culture. "Stereo-typical Americans", offend other countries by our dietary habits in many ways. For example, our seemingly normal habit of eating beef is despised by billions of people world-wide. Furthermore, to stereo-type an entire culture for the habits of a few is not constructive and is not a practice that we encourage here.

To avoid these problems, it's best to keep your comments focused on the actions of specific people rather than pointing to an entire race or culture. It only takes a minute and prevents alienating other members of the community that may happen to fit into your "profile".

Thanks,