I need Lights....Lights..and more Lights

[williamrandel]

:confused: as with all new tanks, one of the most heated issues is "What kind of lights do I need?". My LFS #1 says PC's all the way , LFS#2 says MH or VHO "but that'll cost ya at least a grand". Now I know it will cost, as everything does. For starters, my tank in a 55 AGA rr. Before you judge me for only having a 55, i have very limited space to enjoy this hobby in, and that was as big as i could go. Now with that said, how do you determine what is not enough light, and what is too much. Most people say that you can't have TOO MUCH light, but i don't need a "super nova" in my den. The top of my canopy is 6" above the top of the tank(not the water line). I have thought about MH's but do i have enough room?. I also thought about VHO's (4-110w). This is when i got confused. I read about T-5's. What the heck is a T-5 and is it right for me? Thus my problem. I am hoping amoung the vast knowledge here that someone can help point me in the right direction. :confused:

[SeanT]

Hi,
If you plan on having a reef tank with SPS corals, Clams or anemones I would go with a metal halide, VHO combo.
If you buy retrofit ktis it will cost nowhere near a grand.
Alternatively go to the USED EQUIPMENT forum here and buy some used equipment.
If the height of the bulbs above the water is your concern then you can always build your own canopy. It is very easy and fulfilling to do.

[moonpod]

I'm one of the early T5 proponents in the US, but I'd say it's definitely something that's in it's infancy here. T5 is a thinner fluorescent tube--5/8's of an inch vs a standard VHO tube which is T12 or 12/8's or 1.5 inches. Due to it's thinner design there are some inherently more effecient light producing features theoretically. And in Europe people report really good results using relatively low wattage and these tubes. So think of it as a possible evolution of linear fluorescent tubes. VHO is a more tried and proven option here in the US.

PC is the one way I wouldn't go. PC's produce a lot of light, of which only a poor fraction will make it into the tank. Due to the inherent bent tube design at least a third of the light produced is useless--reflects onto itself and elsewhere.--not into the tank. The bulbs are also notoriously fragile, real actinic isn't often easily available, BUT there are some CHEAP, though unreliable fixtures commonly available.

MH +/- supplemental lighting is a must if you've got a deep tank. A 55 AGA doesn't really count though. MH is probably the way to go if you're gonna go full blown SPS, Clams, calcium reactor etc...If you're not, MH will be a source of overkill lighting and heat production beyond what you'd otherwise be dealing with.

A grand for any sort of lighting setup is a rip off. You've got a canopy, so you're looking at retrofit kits. Costs will be more along the line of 2-500 depending on what you go w/.

[williamrandel]

t5 sound like a good light source, but is it readilly available. I just called around to my LFS's and they do not stock the lamps. also would a 4 lamp configuration work a 55 ( enough light...) and what bulb combo should i use. i don't think clams will ever be in the picture in the 55. I'm just learning the ropes in reef keeping so i plan to go slow and simple until i get the hang of it. (ie. easier to keep species). thanks for the info

[Bruddah Chrispy]

Aloha kakou,

I went with 2x250w MH for my 55g. Didn't cost me anywhere near a grand. CoolTouchLighting dual ballast and reflector: $210 (plus s/h), 2 Ushio 10KKs: 150.

I plan on adding T-5 actinics a little down the road so figure another $150 or so.

[Mako]

There is a nice T5 retrofit package available at http://www.happyreefing.com/t5horetrofits.html which seems very reasonable price wise.

fwiw

[williamrandel]

There is a nice T5 retrofit package available at http://www.happyreefing.com/t5horetrofits.html which seems very reasonable price wise.

I looked at that setup, but it uses a 220w ballast. every thing that i have read since starting this thread, says that you need a larger ballast in order to "overdrive" the lamps. that is how the are making them so bright, even equal to vho's. I may try them with IC660 and see how they look.

[JPMagyar]

You absolutely must answer the question of what you would like to keep before you can answer the question of what kind of lighting you will need.

Choice 1 will allow you to keep anything you want and keep the colors vivid.

Choice 2 will allow you to keep all the same corals, clams etc. but you will not be able to maintain the same level of coloration.

Inaddition the use of VHO's will allow you to simulate
dawn and dusk very nicely if you should ever decide you would like to. Power Compacts can not be dimmed.

Choice1 (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=PFO-ACRO24-250-VHO-IC&Category_Code=PFO-ACROLIGHT)

Choice2 (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=ICE-4X24R&Category_Code=Icecapvhor)

Why do I think this is the way to go?


Take some time and look around at people's photo galleries and I can assure you that the best looking tanks will use a mixture of VHO and MH. T5 may be the way to go in the future but its not a sure bet yet.

I started with an acrylic 50gal Tenecor tank using 2 150watt HQi MHs and would definitely go for the 250 knowing what I know now. Heat was not an issue because of the fans.

Drop me an E-mail if you need more convincing.:D



Joe

[JEMichael IV]

I would suggest an AquaSpacelight, if you are willing to pay for Choice 1.

http://oceanencounter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OE&Category_Code=AQ

[Mako]

Williamrandel - If you like the T5's with the IC660 then check this site out. http://bamart.com/Store.asp?m=IL%2Dsolutions&n=9&k=5835&s=Fixtures They have the new PFO PolypLight T5/PC/VHO Fixtures. One of the choices is 6 54W HO T5's.

hth

[drillsar]

Well Im buying this for my 55gal tank.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2317013780&category=3212

With VHO addon is $395.00 plus $45 for shipping includes bulbs for VHO. THe Bulbs for Metal Halide would cost around $100.00 this fits a 55gal nicely..

[JPMagyar]

Aquaspacelights look outstanding and do a fabulous job, BUT they do not have VHOs and so can not be dimmed AND are VERY heavy because the ballast is built in AND do not have built in fans so you will need to add fans or a chiller. Plus most of the Spacelights incorporate Power Compacts which IMO are a waste of money.


I had not heard of CoolTouch and that sounds excellent, BUT do not go with 175 watt MH. I have 2 175 Hamilton ballasts and pendants that I used on a 75gal tank. They simply do not provide enough light to be useful. Pure VHO will provide the same light at half the heat and electricity.

Well anyways thats one more confusing piece of advice to mull over :p .


HTH

Joe

[moonpod]

I'm not a MH dude personally, but there are newer spacelight fixtures w/T5 instead of PC bulbs. Still not dimmable though cause they typically don't use the dimmable ballast, but T5s per se are dimmable.

[drillsar]

For a 55gal tank 2 175watt MH and VHO wouldnt be enough light? then would I go with 250watt MH and VHO?

[drillsar]

Cooltouch has built in fans and ask sales rep said you dont need a chiller because of construction of the hood.

[williamrandel]

Cooltouch has built in fans

Where can i find these fixtures at?. Also i work in the sign industry, and have access to a number of lighting suppliers who carry ballast for lighting MH 175w -1000w. the only problem is them are ballast only(ie. no fixture or plug). i can make up the primary wiring and secondary ut what could or should i use for a fixture.

[drillsar]

There on ebay.. Heres the link to the Fixture the one shown is MH only but asked they carry a MH and VHO Hood Combo for $395 plus $45 shipping includes bulbs for VHO but not MH. The bulbs for MH would cost around $100

Go here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2317013780&category=3212

[Mad-Mage]

You can get a 4 bulb VHO setup for about $140 without bulbs, so figure $240-$250 for a 4 bulb system with the proper bulbs if you DIY. Then add about 150 for the parts to make a decent dual 175 watt MH plus about $40-$50 a piece for the bulbs and your lighting needs are pretty much complete. SO for around $500-$600 you get 790 watts of lighting using 6 bulbs.

[JPMagyar]

This article: Reflectors and light intensity (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/feature.htm) shows that a 400 watt bulb must be 6 inches away from the water to get a signifcant amount of light over anything more than a tiny area. Imagine if you will what the intensity readings would be for a 175 watt bulb at 4 inches over the water.

The problem is 175watt bulbs just do not have enough intensity to be useful in keeping colorful corals. They WILL create glitter lines and they WILL allow corals to grow but they will only keep the color of a purple or red coral if the coral is placed a maximum of 4 or 5 inches away from the bulb.

I am not saying 175's are bad; I am saying it just depends on what you want to keep.


Again HTH :p

Joe

[Mako]

Joe - So following your logic then this (http://mistressreef.homestead.com/) tank is not possible. Think again. ;) Looks pretty colorful to me and it's on 175 Ushio's.

[Mad-Mage]

Joe,

I believe you have misinterpreted what Sanjay is trying to show and illustrate (perhaps I should say Illuminate) in his study. He is not saying you MUST have your lamps at a distance of 6" from the water, he is showing mappings of light levels at this range and then comparing the loss when you move to 12" on various reflectors. In no place does he state that you MUST keep your lights less than 6" from the water. The fact is 175 Watt MH's with adequate reflectors will be fine for most any type of tank with a depth of less than 20", especially with supplemental VHO or PC lighting. BTW where do you base your conclusion that
The problem is 175watt bulbs just do not have enough intensity to be useful in keeping colorful corals. They WILL create glitter lines and they WILL allow corals to grow but they will only keep the color of a purple or red coral if the coral is placed a maximum of 4 or 5 inches away from the bulb.
if not from Sanjay's report?

[JPMagyar]

Hey Guys -

I have seen the "Mistress Reef" sight before and thinks it is an outstanding example of what can be done with 175 watt MH's . I agree with everything you guys are saying, but I still feel my point is valid. Take a good look at the coral in dead center which has grown nicely and obviously been fragged several times. The branches are BROWN, and with absolutely no scientific proof save my intuition and my personal experience, I would say they would not be brown if they were under intense lighting. Also note that the reef in question has built the rock work so that the corals can be placed only a few inches below the surface, and the more colorful corals at lower depths are animals from low light environments.

I do not believe this coral would keep its color under a 175 unless one placed it 6 inches or less directly under the bulb. http://members.aol.com/sunvox/humilis.jpeg



Also, let me clarify my use of the Sanjay article. I am not arguing that Sanjay says you "must" keep corals 6 inches away. I am saying that his work shows that at a distance greater than 6 inches away the drop off in intensity is large when compared to the natural intensity of sunlight on a reef. Therefore, coral species accustomed to high light levels will not thrive outside of that distance from a bulb. They may adapt but they will not stay as they were the day you bring them home. Of course there will be a myriad of other factors also causing them to adapt as well, but then thats a whole other thread . . .:p

But - there it is thats my opinion - a 175 watt MH does not provide enough light to satisfy the more light loving coral species. I think.

On the other hand I could be totally wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time (I know its hard to believe, right?)


Joe
:D

[Scuba_Dave]

Originally posted by Bruddah Chrispy
Aloha kakou,

I went with 2x250w MH for my 55g. Didn't cost me anywhere near a grand. CoolTouchLighting dual ballast and reflector: $210 (plus s/h), 2 Ushio 10KKs: 150.


Just wondering if you bought bare ballasts, or the dual box, and just the bare refcector?
Ah, just found the Bat pen dual 250w -$258 now?
Just wondering, thanks

[joojoo]

Hey guys have any of you seen these - i just bought a 36" one for a 20 gallon tank. What bulbs should i put in it? and will it be enough for keeping mainly soft corals, anemones and around 6 fish?

Any help would be much appreciated. would i be able to use the arcadia actinic T5 bulbs? they look quite good... i think one marine white and one marine blue should do. would this set up be ok?

Joojoo

ps. heres a link for the overtank luminaires: http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/Arcadia_Overtank_Luminaires.html

[Bruddah Chrispy]

Originally posted by Scuba_Dave
Just wondering if you bought bare ballasts, or the dual box, and just the bare refcector?
Ah, just found the Bat pen dual 250w -$258 now?
Just wondering, thanks

I bought a package on e-bay that included the dual 250w ballast. It comes in an aluminum box and is completely plug and play - all wires included. It also included a bare reflector.

FWIW - the reflector was 49 1/4" long. I should have trimmed it down to size, but instead I build the canopy to fit it. Now the canopy sticks out a couple of inches on each side of the tank and looks awkward. Oh well, future project - rebuild the canopy.

Did I answer your question? I don't know how much they're charging these days, and I don't have a Bat pen. :)

[Scuba_Dave]

yes, thank you