PDA

View Full Version : Ick free reef.


smpolyp
03/05/2001, 12:42 AM
Looking at the interest of ick(cryptocaryon) on other post. I would like to ask about quarintine tanks how many people use them? If you do how often and how long?

FMarini
03/05/2001, 03:50 PM
Hi:
what a great q?
I would happen to think that many people do not use Q tanks, just by looking at the amount of posts we get about all sorts of diseases. While some of them can be prevented by quarentining your animal for 3weeks to months, so others occur becuz the stress level or water quality in the main tank are an issue. regardless, i would recommend all new livestock go thru a Q tank for a minimum of 3 weeks. For ick this would be 1.5 life cycles. So in actually 1 month would ensure you've killed off everything.
The nice thing about Q tanks is that the new fish get established w/out the stress of the other tankmates. you can observe the new guy closely and ensure its health.
Q tanks really do work, unfortunately you got to dedicate another tank to it.
Do a search for quarntine tanks on the website and see what else comes up.
hope this helps
frank

smpolyp
03/05/2001, 10:43 PM
The easiest way that I have found for people to set up a Q tank is to use a penguin bio wheel minus the pre filter/carbon. They just place the wheel in the sump to get bacteria seeded on it. When they get a new fish they pull out some water from thier tank and put the wheel back in the hang on filter and let er rip for the next month of treatment. When the fish gets placed into the main tank the Q tank is broken down and the wheel goes back into the sump. So far this seems the cheapest and easiest for them I have found.

billsreef
03/05/2001, 11:32 PM
Sadly too few people seem to use Q tanks. While a Q tank can be somewhat of hassle to set up it would save many lives of our captive fish. If more people used Q tanks religously then we would see far fewer people looking for reef safe ick cures, as they would not have fish contracting ick in thier reefs. A simple look at all the parasite medications and antibiotics on the shelf of the LFS is a good indication of how many people prefer to use a pound of cure vs an ounce of prevention. Believe it or not medications can have a higher turnover rate on the shelf of a LFS than some fish foods!

In the store I find that things such as Q tanks and even books are a hard sell :( untill people run into constant problems and decide that they need to learn something or simply give up.

A Q tank does not have to be complicated or expensive to set up. As smpolyp mentions a penquin bio wheel filter makes an excellent and easy to use and store filter set up for a Q tank. If you succomb to the last minute "got to have it" syndrome on a unscheduled visit to the LFS a simple Q tank set up can be set up in minutes. A 10 or 20 gallon tank can be set up using water from the main tank (you probably needed to do a water change anyway ;) ) and then throw on the filter (using biowheel that has been sitting in the sump) and a heater. Decor should be easily cleaned objects such as large PVC pipe fittings, not pretty but effective.

I personally like to Q my new fish for 4-6 weeks. In that time most parasites will make themselves evident if they are present. In a small Q tank treatment is easy and your choices of treatment methods are only confined by what will work for the disease. As Frank mentions this will also give the fish time to recover from the stress of shipping and handling, remember that fish was probably swimming on the reef only a week or two before you saw it at the LFS.

BTW smpolyp, good topic to bring up for discussion ;)

Agu
03/06/2001, 04:26 PM
In the past I didn't use a quarantine tank. At first it was out of ignorance, I really hadn't heard of the practice. After learning more I decided to restrict my fish purchases to the only local store that quarantines their livestock prior to sale. I have had excellant success buying from them and not using a q tank.

Recently I planned a purchase from another store as part of a xenia swap. In this case the q tank was up and running prior to making the transaction. Fish are now quarantined not only until they're shown to be ick free, but also until they're feeding aggressively and lose some of their fear of humans. I suspect one of the benefits of a q tank is to allow fish to adapt to captivity in a lower stress environment with less competition for food and territory.

Agu

johnny
03/08/2001, 07:56 PM
feel free to flame me everyone :)

I don't really understand the whole Q tank thing. Wouldn't the least stressful and most healthy place to put your fish be your show tank? If your tank is healthy, good water parameters and not overcrowded I would think this would be the best atmosphere for a fish?
Granted there is a difference between a new purchase and a sick fish you've had for a while.
If it's a new purchase, by all means I understand why a Q tank could be good (with the exception of a tang or larger fish unless the Q tank was large).
But for a current resident of your tank that has gotten sick I just can't understand how chasing it with a net to finally corner it then lift it out of the water and place it into a new tank in which it has to adjust to new water parameters while in a tiny bag... could possibly be good for it. Besides... there had to be something in the main tank that caused the disease in the first place and unless that is solved... I don't see how anything is solved... sure the fish may get better, but then it gets plopped back into the water it got the disease in.
The only thing I could see using a Q tank on is if you have fighting fish that need a temporary home, new fish that were at the LFS (mine have bad tanks) and even then... I'd want the Q tank to be at least a 30g with LR and a DSB and be well established.
How far off am I here?

Nick

FMarini
03/08/2001, 09:59 PM
Nick:
No Flames here. Everyone has opinions on the subject. I guess I see this differently.
Have you ever introduced a new fish to your restablished tank, and watched as the current tankmates beat the snot out of it? Like introducing a new herbivore to a tank already containing an established tang?
So I see this (using a Q tank) as a way to allow the new fish to be isolated, allowed to eat w/o fear of other fish stealing or out competeing for it food. W/o the fear of being beat senseless by and established tankmate. So for me leaving the new fish in the Q tank also allows me to obvserve the new fish for new habits, any signs of disease, or distress. AS you know if I put a new fish into an established reef you go to believe in Darwinism, in that you"LL never ever get this new guy out(should he come down w/ a stress related illness) shy of disassembling your reef.
Another point is that most people tank isn't perfect and a new fish adds big time stress to the system, and if that fish is fresh off the boat, it most likely is carrying ich or another disease waiting for the fishes immune system to drop. So a Q tank ensures that any problem is treated or allowed to die in the absence of another carrier.
So for me its a safety zone, a buffer to allow a good transition to tank life. Also for me its has a special meaning, since my FO tank is all scorpions, I have to train these new fish to eat prepared marine foods, and I can't if this fish is trying to compete w/ my other scorpions. It works, you should ask my friend james I recently trained his red leaf fish to eat frozen mysis,frozen cubes, and flakes...in my Q tank.
frank

[Edited by FMarini on 03-08-2001 at 09:06 PM]

johnny
03/08/2001, 10:24 PM
yes I see where the training to eat can come in handy in tighter more controlled spaces. But with the darwinism wouldn't the fish beat up the other fish no matter when it was put in... q tank or not?

I don't know... I think there are good points and bad points no matter which way you look at it and I'm still quite undecided :)

I'd still be very worried about tangs in that they get ich so easily that I'd have to imagine changing systems each time would cause an outbreak?

Totally unsure,
Nick

billsreef
03/08/2001, 10:58 PM
That new fish you pick up at the LFS has been through a lot of stress by the time you pick it up. Plucked off the reef, held in buckets untill arriving at the exporters (sometimes for days or a week or so), held in an overcrowded exporters tanks for a few more days, shipped overseas often in excess of 20 hours till being unpacked at the wholesalers, a day or a week there untill being packed up yet again and sent to a LFS (sometimes a mere few hours or 24 hours in shipping). Often along this route of several days to several weeks there is scarcely a meal offered and good clean water is merely a wish. In all it is amazing that our fish arrive alive when you consider all they go through to get here. It's no wonder we are constantly having disease problems with new fish.

This is the reason that all new purchases should be Q'd in an adequately sized Q tank. In this way you can allow them to recover from all that stress and learn to eat those new and rather strange foods that you have to offer them, without the added complications and stress of trying to establish a terrortory and being outcompeted for food. Once your new charge is parasite free and eating like a hogfish it is ready to deal with establishing a terrortory and finding it's place in the tanks pecking order, without having to deal with a compromised immune system and missing a meal.


Hope this helps you make up your mind to Q, even if it means setting up a 30 gallon long as a Q tank for that tang to have to itself for a month or so.


In the case of an established tank I quite agree that the root cause of the disease must be established and fixed. It is also necessary to remove and treat in a hospital tank if you want to work with reliable treatments vs mere posibilities of so called reef safe treatments or simple gambling that the fish will cure itself.

smpolyp
03/09/2001, 01:48 AM
This thread is needed. Billsreef did you get both my e-mails? johnny maybe visiting. So I will try to do my best to explain what is going on. Bill I will give him the same or better treatment that I gave you. Just wish it was a reef meeting week end.

billsreef
03/09/2001, 07:35 AM
Hi smpolyp,
yes I got your mail, I think you did good with starting this thread ;) Also passed on the other part. Have fun with johny :)

smiller
03/09/2001, 07:58 AM
I am the first to step up and praise the quarantine tank. I have defeated ick and velvet easily on new arrivals. However I can now also step up and say that it does not guarantee an ick free reef.

I had a RedSea Sailfin in my Q tank for two months treating him for a bad case of HLLE. (Thanks for the help Bill.) Though he is the picture of freakin' out and ick waiting to happen, no problem. But after he went to the display, two days later I starting seeing those dreaded spots. He acted like he had never seen a fish before. Now a week later, he is much calmer. I have been feeding garlic and treating with Kick Ick. I don't have much faith in it but maybe as he is so fat and strong and eats like there is no tommorrow, maybe he can defeat it. The spots are at gone for the moment but still an occasional scratch. I want to at least give him the chance to beat this without the stress of another move. Of course this could cause me problems with my other fish, but as all have been in the tank for a good while I'm going to risk it.

But all in all, MY life has been much more stress free with a Q tank. I wouldn't be without one.

johnny
03/09/2001, 09:31 AM
Out of curiousity what size is everyone's Q tank? I could understand setting up a 30g if I had the money/room, but I'm not sure if a pack of wild horses each holding ropes tied to my testicles could keep me from turning it into a reef.
(now doesn't that bring a pretty picture to mind)

I like the idea of having a Q tank, as long as it's large enough to keep water parameters stable and the fish stress free... I'm still not gonna change over with my tang belief (unless they're small), but someone's gonna have to give me therapy or hyptnotize me to keep me from putting something in the 30g Q tank.

An empty tank just sitting around??? MUST .... PUT.... FISH ..... IN.... TANK.... I'm sorry captain I just don't have the powwwwwer :eek1:

Nick

smpolyp
03/09/2001, 07:20 PM
smiller how long did you Q your fish? And did you Q every fish that went into your tank?

billsreef
03/09/2001, 07:48 PM
Johnny,

I use a 20 gallon long and only buy juvenille fish, one or two at a time depending on what size and species. If I was getting larger fish I would not hesitate to set up larger Q tanks in order to adequately house the species for the Q period.

BTW I understand the difficulties in not turning that empty glass box into yet another display ;) I do suffer from multiple tank syndrome :D

FMarini
03/10/2001, 03:10 PM
Hi:
i found for me the easiest way to have a instant Q tank is to use a 30gal rubbermaid tall tub. I usually keep a large triangular sponge filter in my sump, and when i get a new charge I fill the sump w/ used tank water(you always need a water change w/ a large FO), and add the sponge filter. I also use 3 large peices of PVC and what apears to be Large 1/2 fake peices of tree(came from my old freshwatrer tank). Instant Q tank. I usually keep new guys in this tub for three weeks, no lights, constant water movement, and this is where i train them to eat prepared foods. Also keep a keen eye on them for problems. Considering the cost of some of my fish, this is an incredibly cheap alternative.
frank